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What Theory you find more Likelty for Discovery Enterprise to TOS Enterpirse

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  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 11,556 Arc User
    rattler2 wrote: »
    Or at least no visual difference on whatever timeline DSC happens anyway. At least three Star Trek series show the TOS Enterprise looking like it did in TOS. And there are other inconsistencies that are not simply visual too, like Chekov would be unlikely to think Mara was beautiful if she looked like Mr. Toad the way the DSC Klingons generally do, so that particular scene in "Day of the Dove" would have happened differently for instance.

    Enterprise established that there are TOS style Klingons because of the Augment Virus.
    There's no reason to assume that the ENTIRE population was infected by the Augment Virus, and there is no reason to assume that the TOS style Klingons don't exist anymore.

    Just because we didn't see any TOS style Klingons (although I think that one on the bridge of L'Rell's D7 might be close) doesn't mean they aren't there. Just like how we know there are more classes of ship in TOS even though we never actually see any other than the Connie.

    So rather than assume everything got retconned out of existance...
    Simple answer: They just weren't there at the time.

    Remember we still got at least 10 years before Kirk takes command. At this point its possible that the Klingons still view those affected by the Augment Virus with distrust. But under L'Rell that may change, allowing Kor, Mara, and all the other TOS Klingons we know to rise through the ranks.

    And there is a difference between Discovery Klingons and TNG Klingons which would not be explained by the Augment virus. Since DS9 and Enterprise gave an explanation about the difference between the TOS and TNG Klingons besides the reasonable "Klingons always looked that way, but we didn't have the technology" explanation, then Discovery Klingons are not TNG Klingons. Considering that Discovery Season 3 is set in the 32nd Century, it is doubtful that the difference between Discovery Klingons and TNG Klingons will be explained.
  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 10,354 Arc User
    People from central Africa don't look like people from central Asia. Retcon!!

    Or, y'know, maybe there are multiple Klingon ethnicities. Especially in a universe where accidental cross-breeding between sapient species is possible (Sela wasn't grown in a lab).
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  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 11,556 Arc User
    jonsills wrote: »
    People from central Africa don't look like people from central Asia. Retcon!!

    Or, y'know, maybe there are multiple Klingon ethnicities. Especially in a universe where accidental cross-breeding between sapient species is possible (Sela wasn't grown in a lab).

    Extensive physiological differences can't be explained by ethnicity or at least how we know it. Environmental adaptation to alien planets or genetic engineering to thrive on alien planets could explain the differences between Discovery and TNG Klingons, but it is unlikely we will get an explanation for the Discovery Klingons.
    azrael605 wrote: »
    > starkaos said:
    > (Quote)
    >
    > And there is a difference between Discovery Klingons and TNG Klingons which would not be explained by the Augment virus. Since DS9 and Enterprise gave an explanation about the difference between the TOS and TNG Klingons besides the reasonable "Klingons always looked that way, but we didn't have the technology" explanation, then Discovery Klingons are not TNG Klingons. Considering that Discovery Season 3 is set in the 32nd Century, it is doubtful that the difference between Discovery Klingons and TNG Klingons will be explained.

    Discovery Klingons are TNG Klingons.

    And where is your proof of that? I don't remember a TNG, DS9, Voyager, or Enterprise Klingon that had a row of holes on the top of their head or have an oval-shaped head. Since DS9 and Enterprise had to make a distinction between TOS and TNG Klingons, then there is an actual physiological difference between TOS, TNG, and Discovery Klingons.

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  • starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,963 Arc User
    starkaos wrote: »
    And where is your proof of that? I don't remember a TNG, DS9, Voyager, or Enterprise Klingon that had a row of holes on the top of their head or have an oval-shaped head. Since DS9 and Enterprise had to make a distinction between TOS and TNG Klingons, then there is an actual physiological difference between TOS, TNG, and Discovery Klingons.

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    Or, they're choosing to reverse the unnecessary retcon because 1) like most of ENT it was stupid and 2) it violated Word of God that there isn't any difference between TOS and movie/TNG Klingons. Ergo, there is no difference between TNG Klingons and DSC Klingons, either.

    For Prophets' sakes, DS9 even put three Klingons who had appeared in the original series in TNG makeup and never said a word.
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    Kor even became a minor recurring character. It was only the one intentional self-parody episode, which was never again referenced despite having brought tribbles back from extinction, that actually acknowledged there was a difference.

    Gorrammit I hate Enterprise. The more of that abortion of a show that gets retconned away, the better off the franchise is for it.
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  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 10,354 Arc User
    "Extensive physiological differences"? One group has a slightly elongated skull - and that may not even be all skull. The whole "hole" thing (if you'll pardon the expression) was debunked a year ago. Other than that, I haven't seen any physiological differences at all. They're all comfortable in the same atmosphere, they all enjoy the same gravitational pull, they all are almost exclusively carnivorous (well, we don't really know the dietary habits of TOS Klingons, but it's a reasonable extension), they all are capable of using the same ship designs - looks pretty much like a single species to me.

    Meanwhile, the Tutsi people of what is now Rwanda were viewed in antiquity by other ethnic groups as "giants" because their average height, given the same diet, was much greater than most of humanity. The texture of the hair of humans from Africa, particularly its central regions, is quite distinct from that of Europeans, whose hair texture is distinct from that found in the Far East (and let's not even get into the native peoples of the Americas!). There are also variances of skull shape in varying populations - there is little effect on cerebral development, but the distinctions exist. (This formed the basis of the old practice of "phrenology", in which skulls were measured and bigoted conclusions drawn based on how much they differed from the person doing the measuring.) Aliens stumbling upon Earth with no preparation or opportunity to observe (similar to the situation of viewers of DSC, who weren't exactly conducting genealogical surveys of the Klingon Empire between ENT and DSC) could be forgiven for believing that this planet plays host to multiple sapient species. (And that would be an understandable mistake, as many of the differences might well trace back to the ancestral Neanderthal and Denisovan populations with whom the spreading Humans interbred.)
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  • starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,963 Arc User
    jonsills wrote: »
    "Extensive physiological differences"? One group has a slightly elongated skull - and that may not even be all skull. The whole "hole" thing (if you'll pardon the expression) was debunked a year ago. Other than that, I haven't seen any physiological differences at all. They're all comfortable in the same atmosphere, they all enjoy the same gravitational pull, they all are almost exclusively carnivorous (well, we don't really know the dietary habits of TOS Klingons, but it's a reasonable extension), they all are capable of using the same ship designs - looks pretty much like a single species to me.

    Meanwhile, the Tutsi people of what is now Rwanda were viewed in antiquity by other ethnic groups as "giants" because their average height, given the same diet, was much greater than most of humanity. The texture of the hair of humans from Africa, particularly its central regions, is quite distinct from that of Europeans, whose hair texture is distinct from that found in the Far East (and let's not even get into the native peoples of the Americas!). There are also variances of skull shape in varying populations - there is little effect on cerebral development, but the distinctions exist. (This formed the basis of the old practice of "phrenology", in which skulls were measured and bigoted conclusions drawn based on how much they differed from the person doing the measuring.) Aliens stumbling upon Earth with no preparation or opportunity to observe (similar to the situation of viewers of DSC, who weren't exactly conducting genealogical surveys of the Klingon Empire between ENT and DSC) could be forgiven for believing that this planet plays host to multiple sapient species. (And that would be an understandable mistake, as many of the differences might well trace back to the ancestral Neanderthal and Denisovan populations with whom the spreading Humans interbred.)

    For that matter there have been various peoples throughout the world that would deliberately wrap infants' heads with wooden slats to form the skull into a more conical shape as they grew.
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  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 10,354 Arc User
    The DSC Connie is beautiful. I think she could be improved by making her saucer look a bit more like the TOS saucer, but other than than she's a gorgeous ship. Pity RNGesus hates me, so it's going to be a loooong time before I can fly one in-game (takes a while to accumulate a billion EC when you're not infusing any actual cash into the process).
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  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,231 Arc User
    starkaos wrote: »
    Extensive physiological differences can't be explained by ethnicity or at least how we know it. Environmental adaptation to alien planets or genetic engineering to thrive on alien planets could explain the differences between Discovery and TNG Klingons, but it is unlikely we will get an explanation for the Discovery Klingons.
    Except... that requires us to know the range of genetic variation in the species. It's a fictional species. For example, Boslics have been seen on-screen with two and only two hair colors. The first is a dark brown/black, the second is neon purple. Presumably this is natural variation in their species, thus the neon purple is the Boslic equivalent of being a blonde.
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  • phoenixc#0738 phoenixc Member Posts: 5,459 Arc User
    The DSC Klingons may be a distant relation to the ones in TOS and TNG, or they may not be related at all. The head of makeup for DSC has stated that the working theory on the show is that not all of the houses are even from Qo'nos itself.

    Also, the changed looks of Kang, Kor, and Koloth in TNG do not constitute a reboot or retcon. According to Michael Westmore (who designed the makeup) the official explanation is that the augments start showing ridges like that when they get very old like those three were.
  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 10,354 Arc User
    The DSC Klingons may be a distant relation to the ones in TOS and TNG, or they may not be related at all. The head of makeup for DSC has stated that the working theory on the show is that not all of the houses are even from Qo'nos itself.

    Also, the changed looks of Kang, Kor, and Koloth in TNG do not constitute a reboot or retcon. According to Michael Westmore (who designed the makeup) the official explanation is that the augments start showing ridges like that when they get very old like those three were.
    ...that makes even less sense than just retconning them, or assuming they underwent some sort of procedure to implant ridges.
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  • starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,963 Arc User
    The DSC Klingons may be a distant relation to the ones in TOS and TNG, or they may not be related at all. The head of makeup for DSC has stated that the working theory on the show is that not all of the houses are even from Qo'nos itself.

    Also, the changed looks of Kang, Kor, and Koloth in TNG do not constitute a reboot or retcon. According to Michael Westmore (who designed the makeup) the official explanation is that the augments start showing ridges like that when they get very old like those three were.

    At the time the episode was filmed, there were no augments. Period. The Klingons of TNG and DS9 were the same ones as TNG, they just updated the makeup. The retcon is ENT deciding that a minor joke needed to be explained.
    "Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
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  • phoenixc#0738 phoenixc Member Posts: 5,459 Arc User
    edited October 2019
    starswordc wrote: »
    The DSC Klingons may be a distant relation to the ones in TOS and TNG, or they may not be related at all. The head of makeup for DSC has stated that the working theory on the show is that not all of the houses are even from Qo'nos itself.

    Also, the changed looks of Kang, Kor, and Koloth in TNG do not constitute a reboot or retcon. According to Michael Westmore (who designed the makeup) the official explanation is that the augments start showing ridges like that when they get very old like those three were.

    At the time the episode was filmed, there were no augments. Period. The Klingons of TNG and DS9 were the same ones as TNG, they just updated the makeup. The retcon is ENT deciding that a minor joke needed to be explained.

    True, the idea of the augment virus probably did not exist at the time (there is no way to tell how long it was kicking around before they used it though) but I was paraphrasing for brevity and that term is what is used now so it is understood without extra explanation. While looking for Westmore's exact words for a direct quote just now I found this on Memory Alpha:
    While Kang, Koloth and Kor all bore the mark of the augmented Klingons, their inexplicable appearance in DS9: "Blood Oath" in the modern Klingon form, as told by Michael Westmore, at that time was "The producers explained to the actors that Klingons live to be very old and their new look was part of the aging process." (Star Trek: Aliens and Artifacts, p. 128)

    Which agrees with what I remember from a different article where Westmore was asked the same question.

    They were probably still thinking in terms of the "fusions" that were firmly established in fanon at the time, but that is just a guess. The fusion idea would make sense with how they handled Klingons in general in TNG, especially mixes like Torres in Voy. In fact, the Kelvin lizard Klingons could even be passed off as Klingon/Gorn fusions if they still used the concept.

    Still, the cosmetic surgery explanation makes the most sense, but then we are talking about Hollywood after all.
  • ryurangerryuranger Member Posts: 520 Arc User
    an Inncodent where the Enterprise had to do Emergency Saucer Separation
    azrael605 wrote: »
    > @starkaos said:
    > (Quote)
    >
    > And there is a difference between Discovery Klingons and TNG Klingons which would not be explained by the Augment virus. Since DS9 and Enterprise gave an explanation about the difference between the TOS and TNG Klingons besides the reasonable "Klingons always looked that way, but we didn't have the technology" explanation, then Discovery Klingons are not TNG Klingons. Considering that Discovery Season 3 is set in the 32nd Century, it is doubtful that the difference between Discovery Klingons and TNG Klingons will be explained.

    Discovery Klingons are TNG Klingons.
    Actually the Showrunner in Star Trek Discovery Season 1 did mention that the TOS Klingons and TNG Klingons are around just the Klingons we see in Discovery are what we get involve with much like the Klingons in TOS and TNG. It as been established through out Alpha Cannon (Prime Timeline) that the Empire is Much Older then the Romulan Star Empire it self and they were one of the first to have Warp Drive thanks to the invasion of the Hur'qs so it safe to say they may be different variations of Klingons out in the Empire due two Colonization and or Genetic manipulation. The Klingons that were involve from the Argument Virus were mostly from the Colonies worlds and most of the core Worlds and the Home World Remain unaffected by it.
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