> @phoenixc#0738 said:
> valoreah wrote: »
>
> sthe91 wrote: »
>
> It depends in what context such a phrase give her a spanking is in.
>
>
>
>
> In the context of the episode in question, it was misogynistic and disrespectful.
>
>
>
>
> In context it was not meant to be misogynistic but it was deliberately disrespectful because Kirk suddenly realized that in her culture disrespect was part of the normal challenges it took for a person to be taken seriously (something the Troyians never did understand which is probably why the conflict dragged on for as long as it did). Oddly, the word "spanking" apparently did not translate since Elaan had to ask Kirk what that "old Earth custom called a spanking" was.
she didn't ask him that until after she had infected him with her tears and the way that she asked it made it very very clear that she was using it as an erotic suggestion
Yes, it was after the tears. It was actually a sign that she thought him worthy enough to do that and keep him around instead of just stick a knife in him like she did Petri, (who was implied to be too culturally inflexible to even understand why she considered him a worthless toad).
Also, she still had to guess at what a "spanking" was and was probably teasing Kirk about it to see how much of a hold her tears had on him, along with flirting to drive the hook deeper (plus she obviously started to like him herself). It was at least as much about cultures as it was genders.
> @phoenixc#0738 said:
> valoreah wrote: »
> sthe91 wrote: »
> It depends in what context such a phrase give her a spanking is in.
>
> In the context of the episode in question, it was misogynistic and disrespectful.
>
> In context it was not meant to be misogynistic but it was deliberately disrespectful because Kirk suddenly realized that in her culture disrespect was part of the normal challenges it took for a person to be taken seriously (something the Troyians never did understand which is probably why the conflict dragged on for as long as it did). Oddly, the word "spanking" apparently did not translate since Elaan had to ask Kirk what that "old Earth custom called a spanking" was.
she didn't ask him that until after she had infected him with her tears and the way that she asked it made it very very clear that she was using it as an erotic suggestion
Yes, it was after the tears. It was actually a sign that she thought him worthy enough to do that and keep him around instead of just stick a knife in him like she did Petri, (who was implied to be too culturally inflexible to even understand why she considered him a worthless toad).
Also, she still had to guess at what a "spanking" was and was probably teasing Kirk about it to see how much of a hold her tears had on him, along with flirting to drive the hook deeper (plus she obviously started to like him herself). It was at least as much about cultures as it was genders.
Yeah that episode had so many layers of innuendo you need to watch it several times just to figure it all out.
In context it was not meant to be misogynistic but it was deliberately disrespectful because Kirk suddenly realized that in her culture disrespect was part of the normal challenges it took for a person to be taken seriously (something the Troyians never did understand which is probably why the conflict dragged on for as long as it did). Oddly, the word "spanking" apparently did not translate since Elaan had to ask Kirk what that "old Earth custom called a spanking" was.
Yes, it was misogynistic and I would encourage you to do your research on what the word actually means. If you don't believe it is and are so confident you are correct, I challenge you to go to your workplace and tell any woman that you will give them a spanking if they "misbehave".
For clarity, I don't believe it was Kirk's intent, however that doesn't make it right.
True, in a civilized workplace that would be inappropriate, but then again in a civilized workplace anyone who just stabbed someone earlier and threatens to do it again would have a lot more to worry about than a counter-threat of a spanking.
As for Rick Berman having her wear a padded bra, that wasn't sexist, it was smart business decision, sex sells...
I cannot believe you were able to type that sentence without the weight of the sheer irony breaking your keyboard. "Sex sells" is about as sexist a sentiment as I can imagine this side of the casting couch. Or do you imagine that the primary audience for DS9 was sixteen-year-old boys?
But it's not gender specific though. Why do you think Michael Knight and Magnum dressed like that? Guys can be used as eye-candy too
Why do you think there were plenty of sequences in TOS with Kirk shirtless and sweaty or with his shirt torn? It's the same reason (And the outfits were championed by Nichelle Nichols and Grace Lee Whitney) that TOS ditched pants on the female characters for mini skirts.
Formerly known as Armsman from June 2008 to June 20, 2012 PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
As for Rick Berman having her wear a padded bra, that wasn't sexist, it was smart business decision, sex sells...
I cannot believe you were able to type that sentence without the weight of the sheer irony breaking your keyboard. "Sex sells" is about as sexist a sentiment as I can imagine this side of the casting couch. Or do you imagine that the primary audience for DS9 was sixteen-year-old boys?
But it's not gender specific though. Why do you think Michael Knight and Magnum dressed like that? Guys can be used as eye-candy too
Why do you think there were plenty of sequences in TOS with Kirk shirtless and sweaty or with his shirt torn? It's the same reason (And the outfits were championed by Nichelle Nichols and Grace Lee Whitney) that TOS ditched pants on the female characters for mini skirts.
Because I am, indeed, going to be That Guy:
This first piece involves the definition and even specifies the roots of said definition; https://www.dictionary.com/browse/misogyny
Thus the distinction between misogyny and sexism is made.
On this basis I can only conclude that Ms. Mulgrew's statement is born out of either ignorance or deception. In either case her statement is not factually accurate.
> @theboxisred said: > Because I am, indeed, going to be That Guy: > This first piece involves the definition and even specifies the roots of said definition; > https://www.dictionary.com/browse/misogyny > > Next is an attached gyno-centric article that goes into greater detail; > https://www.dictionary.com/e/misogyny-vs-sexism/ > > Thus the distinction between misogyny and sexism is made. > > On this basis I can only conclude that Ms. Mulgrew's statement is born out of either ignorance or deception. In either case her statement is not factually accurate.
Because I am, indeed, going to be That Guy:
This first piece involves the definition and even specifies the roots of said definition; https://www.dictionary.com/browse/misogyny
Thus the distinction between misogyny and sexism is made.
On this basis I can only conclude that Ms. Mulgrew's statement is born out of either ignorance or deception. In either case her statement is not factually accurate.
> @smokebailey said: > theboxisred wrote: » > > Because I am, indeed, going to be That Guy: > This first piece involves the definition and even specifies the roots of said definition; > https://www.dictionary.com/browse/misogyny > > Next is an attached gyno-centric article that goes into greater detail; > https://www.dictionary.com/e/misogyny-vs-sexism/ > > Thus the distinction between misogyny and sexism is made. > > On this basis I can only conclude that Ms. Mulgrew's statement is born out of either ignorance or deception. In either case her statement is not factually accurate. > > > > > I think she's just being a TRIBBELY old cow.
Like I said I think she is pissed that Patrick Stewart got his own new she and not her and what makes it truely unbearable Jeri Ryan has a role in it, and she doesn't.
Honestly the smartest thing in the All Access Era of Star Trek was being Jeri Ryan back in. If Picard gets a spin off like Discovery, they should make Seven of Nine a Captain of a Borg Cooperative Ship. That would be freaking epic!
> @smokebailey said:
> theboxisred wrote: »
>
> Because I am, indeed, going to be That Guy:
> This first piece involves the definition and even specifies the roots of said definition;
> https://www.dictionary.com/browse/misogyny
>
> Next is an attached gyno-centric article that goes into greater detail;
> https://www.dictionary.com/e/misogyny-vs-sexism/
>
> Thus the distinction between misogyny and sexism is made.
>
> On this basis I can only conclude that Ms. Mulgrew's statement is born out of either ignorance or deception. In either case her statement is not factually accurate.
>
>
>
>
> I think she's just being a TRIBBELY old cow.
Like I said I think she is pissed that Patrick Stewart got his own new she and not her and what makes it truely unbearable Jeri Ryan has a role in it, and she doesn't.
Honestly the smartest thing in the All Access Era of Star Trek was being Jeri Ryan back in. If Picard gets a spin off like Discovery, they should make Seven of Nine a Captain of a Borg Cooperative Ship. That would be freaking epic!
And it, to me, made Kate look more like an angry old cow when she did not appear in Delta Rising, either to being pricey, or not wanting to do it. Sorta like the prom queen who is now an angry old maid.
Kate Mulgrew speaks about sexism, is then dismissed and repeatedly slammed with sexist slurs in this very thread.
Good show, people. Jolly good show.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
And it, to me, made Kate look more like an angry old cow when she did not appear in Delta Rising, either to being pricey, or not wanting to do it. Sorta like the prom queen who is now an angry old maid.
As opposed to William Shatner, Patrick Steward, Avery Brooks and Scott Bakula who haven't done any voiceovers for STO either? Does it make them angry old cows too?
Kate Mulgrew had her reasons to be angry with Star Trek. In Voyager, she was trying to prove that a women can be as tough, competent and intelligent in a leading role as any man before her. And then a woman who sleeps with the producer is put in a cat suit and introduced as an additional lead character. No wonder Mulgrew and Ryan never got along.
In any case, Mulgrew has a successful ongoing career and I highly doubt that she's envious of Steward getting a new show or Ryan playing a minor role in it.
Kate Mulgrew speaks about sexism, is then dismissed and repeatedly slammed with sexist slurs in this very thread.
Good show, people. Jolly good show.
If sexism was the only issue then you might have a case. The focus, however, was misogyny, not sexism. the two are not synonymous regardless of any attempt to conflate the two or to shift the goal posts by ignoring that misogyny was invoked.
As far as contract negotiations between the various actors and Cryptic Studios, well... I wasn't there nor do I have intimate knowledge of those details.
> @angrytarg said: > Kate Mulgrew speaks about sexism, is then dismissed and repeatedly slammed with sexist slurs in this very thread. > > Good show, people. Jolly good show.
No sexist slurs have occurred , but cricism would stand even if she was a man .
Oh, no, gyor, there have been plenty of sexist slurs (nobody calls a man an "old cow", just for starters), as well as attempts to redefine "misogyny" in an effort to move the goalposts away from what's been happening in this very thread.
"...cri[t]icism would stand even if she was a man"? As Szim pointed out, neither Shatner, Stewart, Brooks, nor Bakula have provided any VO for this game, and the closest anyone's come to critiquing them for it has been the occasional claim that Brooks "hates Star Trek now". For Shatner and Stewart, folks have just come to accept, without question, that STO can't afford their fees, even though Shatner was for quite a while reduced to doing insurance commercials (and then was supplanted in those by a younger actor). But when a working actor, in a fairly successful series, doesn't do a VO for a character whose storyline only tangentially spins by ours? She's "spiteful", "washed up", an "old cow", "resentful" of Stewart having a show (as if she doesn't - Trek isn't the only thing out there, you know). Clearly, this is not exactly an even-handed treatment of the old captains - Isaacs was the first Trek captain to do VO for the game, and until near the end of the story he's not even playing the same character!
> @jonsills said: > Oh, no, gyor, there have been plenty of sexist slurs (nobody calls a man an "old cow", just for starters), as well as attempts to redefine "misogyny" in an effort to move the goalposts away from what's been happening in this very thread. > > "...cri[t]icism would stand even if she was a man"? As Szim pointed out, neither Shatner, Stewart, Brooks, nor Bakula have provided any VO for this game, and the closest anyone's come to critiquing them for it has been the occasional claim that Brooks "hates Star Trek now". For Shatner and Stewart, folks have just come to accept, without question, that STO can't afford their fees, even though Shatner was for quite a while reduced to doing insurance commercials (and then was supplanted in those by a younger actor). But when a working actor, in a fairly successful series, doesn't do a VO for a character whose storyline only tangentially spins by ours? She's "spiteful", "washed up", an "old cow", "resentful" of Stewart having a show (as if she doesn't - Trek isn't the only thing out there, you know). Clearly, this is not exactly an even-handed treatment of the old captains - Isaacs was the first Trek captain to do VO for the game, and until near the end of the story he's not even playing the same character!
I never called anyone a cow in thread! And I use all slurs equally when I do use them.
> @valoreah said: > Not everyone is so anal about the exact definition of words. Call it whatever descriptive string of letters you like, telling women you will "spank them if they misbehave" or calling them "angry old cows" is disrespectful. It speaks volumes about the hypocritical people making the statements.
I'm anal on it only because the change was politically motivated and manipulative.
Is it disrespectful if either of those are applied to men? And what about a BDSM context such as humiliation play?
> @valoreah said: > lordgyor wrote: » > > Is it disrespectful if either of those are applied to men? And what about a BDSM context such as humiliation play? > > > > > Someone calling Mulgrew an "angry spiteful old cow" who is "upset she didn't get Star Trek show" has absolutely nothing to do with "humiliation play". To even try and equate the two is quite frankly, submoronic.
I wasn't talking about that, I was refering to Kirk threatening to spank a woman, which was pure fan service to women who fantasize about being spanked by Kirk.
And again I have never,ever called Kate Mulgrew a cow, nor would I. I concider her a talented actress who deserved better writing on Voyager, but who has a Jealous side.
This cow thing is annoying me as I never said that. I disagree with Kate, but I like Kate, as Janeway, Mrs.comlbo, and Red on OitNB.
Kate Mulgrew speaks about sexism, is then dismissed and repeatedly slammed with sexist slurs in this very thread.
Good show, people. Jolly good show.
Well obviously. What would a woman involved in the production of Star Trek know about women in the production of Star Trek?
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Gyor, you are arguing in support of the same position as the person who called Mulgrew an "old cow". To pretend that you have no idea how that fits into anything you said is ingenuous in the extreme.
Comments
Yes, it was after the tears. It was actually a sign that she thought him worthy enough to do that and keep him around instead of just stick a knife in him like she did Petri, (who was implied to be too culturally inflexible to even understand why she considered him a worthless toad).
Also, she still had to guess at what a "spanking" was and was probably teasing Kirk about it to see how much of a hold her tears had on him, along with flirting to drive the hook deeper (plus she obviously started to like him herself). It was at least as much about cultures as it was genders.
My character Tsin'xing
True, in a civilized workplace that would be inappropriate, but then again in a civilized workplace anyone who just stabbed someone earlier and threatens to do it again would have a lot more to worry about than a counter-threat of a spanking.
Why do you think there were plenty of sequences in TOS with Kirk shirtless and sweaty or with his shirt torn? It's the same reason (And the outfits were championed by Nichelle Nichols and Grace Lee Whitney) that TOS ditched pants on the female characters for mini skirts.
PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
Bingo!
This first piece involves the definition and even specifies the roots of said definition;
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/misogyny
Next is an attached gyno-centric article that goes into greater detail;
https://www.dictionary.com/e/misogyny-vs-sexism/
Thus the distinction between misogyny and sexism is made.
On this basis I can only conclude that Ms. Mulgrew's statement is born out of either ignorance or deception. In either case her statement is not factually accurate.
> Because I am, indeed, going to be That Guy:
> This first piece involves the definition and even specifies the roots of said definition;
> https://www.dictionary.com/browse/misogyny
>
> Next is an attached gyno-centric article that goes into greater detail;
> https://www.dictionary.com/e/misogyny-vs-sexism/
>
> Thus the distinction between misogyny and sexism is made.
>
> On this basis I can only conclude that Ms. Mulgrew's statement is born out of either ignorance or deception. In either case her statement is not factually accurate.
Well done .
I think she's just being a TRIBBELY old cow.
> theboxisred wrote: »
>
> Because I am, indeed, going to be That Guy:
> This first piece involves the definition and even specifies the roots of said definition;
> https://www.dictionary.com/browse/misogyny
>
> Next is an attached gyno-centric article that goes into greater detail;
> https://www.dictionary.com/e/misogyny-vs-sexism/
>
> Thus the distinction between misogyny and sexism is made.
>
> On this basis I can only conclude that Ms. Mulgrew's statement is born out of either ignorance or deception. In either case her statement is not factually accurate.
>
>
>
>
> I think she's just being a TRIBBELY old cow.
Like I said I think she is pissed that Patrick Stewart got his own new she and not her and what makes it truely unbearable Jeri Ryan has a role in it, and she doesn't.
Honestly the smartest thing in the All Access Era of Star Trek was being Jeri Ryan back in. If Picard gets a spin off like Discovery, they should make Seven of Nine a Captain of a Borg Cooperative Ship. That would be freaking epic!
And it, to me, made Kate look more like an angry old cow when she did not appear in Delta Rising, either to being pricey, or not wanting to do it. Sorta like the prom queen who is now an angry old maid.
She'll be like this, next XD
>
Good show, people. Jolly good show.
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As opposed to William Shatner, Patrick Steward, Avery Brooks and Scott Bakula who haven't done any voiceovers for STO either? Does it make them angry old cows too?
Kate Mulgrew had her reasons to be angry with Star Trek. In Voyager, she was trying to prove that a women can be as tough, competent and intelligent in a leading role as any man before her. And then a woman who sleeps with the producer is put in a cat suit and introduced as an additional lead character. No wonder Mulgrew and Ryan never got along.
In any case, Mulgrew has a successful ongoing career and I highly doubt that she's envious of Steward getting a new show or Ryan playing a minor role in it.
If sexism was the only issue then you might have a case. The focus, however, was misogyny, not sexism. the two are not synonymous regardless of any attempt to conflate the two or to shift the goal posts by ignoring that misogyny was invoked.
As far as contract negotiations between the various actors and Cryptic Studios, well... I wasn't there nor do I have intimate knowledge of those details.
> Kate Mulgrew speaks about sexism, is then dismissed and repeatedly slammed with sexist slurs in this very thread.
>
> Good show, people. Jolly good show.
No sexist slurs have occurred , but cricism would stand even if she was a man .
"...cri[t]icism would stand even if she was a man"? As Szim pointed out, neither Shatner, Stewart, Brooks, nor Bakula have provided any VO for this game, and the closest anyone's come to critiquing them for it has been the occasional claim that Brooks "hates Star Trek now". For Shatner and Stewart, folks have just come to accept, without question, that STO can't afford their fees, even though Shatner was for quite a while reduced to doing insurance commercials (and then was supplanted in those by a younger actor). But when a working actor, in a fairly successful series, doesn't do a VO for a character whose storyline only tangentially spins by ours? She's "spiteful", "washed up", an "old cow", "resentful" of Stewart having a show (as if she doesn't - Trek isn't the only thing out there, you know). Clearly, this is not exactly an even-handed treatment of the old captains - Isaacs was the first Trek captain to do VO for the game, and until near the end of the story he's not even playing the same character!
> Oh, no, gyor, there have been plenty of sexist slurs (nobody calls a man an "old cow", just for starters), as well as attempts to redefine "misogyny" in an effort to move the goalposts away from what's been happening in this very thread.
>
> "...cri[t]icism would stand even if she was a man"? As Szim pointed out, neither Shatner, Stewart, Brooks, nor Bakula have provided any VO for this game, and the closest anyone's come to critiquing them for it has been the occasional claim that Brooks "hates Star Trek now". For Shatner and Stewart, folks have just come to accept, without question, that STO can't afford their fees, even though Shatner was for quite a while reduced to doing insurance commercials (and then was supplanted in those by a younger actor). But when a working actor, in a fairly successful series, doesn't do a VO for a character whose storyline only tangentially spins by ours? She's "spiteful", "washed up", an "old cow", "resentful" of Stewart having a show (as if she doesn't - Trek isn't the only thing out there, you know). Clearly, this is not exactly an even-handed treatment of the old captains - Isaacs was the first Trek captain to do VO for the game, and until near the end of the story he's not even playing the same character!
I never called anyone a cow in thread! And I use all slurs equally when I do use them.
> Not everyone is so anal about the exact definition of words. Call it whatever descriptive string of letters you like, telling women you will "spank them if they misbehave" or calling them "angry old cows" is disrespectful. It speaks volumes about the hypocritical people making the statements.
I'm anal on it only because the change was politically motivated and manipulative.
Is it disrespectful if either of those are applied to men? And what about a BDSM context such as humiliation play?
You can't just divorce it from its context.
> lordgyor wrote: »
>
> Is it disrespectful if either of those are applied to men? And what about a BDSM context such as humiliation play?
>
>
>
>
> Someone calling Mulgrew an "angry spiteful old cow" who is "upset she didn't get Star Trek show" has absolutely nothing to do with "humiliation play". To even try and equate the two is quite frankly, submoronic.
I wasn't talking about that, I was refering to Kirk threatening to spank a woman, which was pure fan service to women who fantasize about being spanked by Kirk.
And again I have never,ever called Kate Mulgrew a cow, nor would I. I concider her a talented actress who deserved better writing on Voyager, but who has a Jealous side.
This cow thing is annoying me as I never said that. I disagree with Kate, but I like Kate, as Janeway, Mrs.comlbo, and Red on OitNB.
Just to clear this annoying misconception.
Well obviously. What would a woman involved in the production of Star Trek know about women in the production of Star Trek?
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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...THEN THE WINGED HUSSARS ARRIVED!