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Kate Mulgrew accuses Star Trek of Mysogny

lordgyorlordgyor Member Posts: 2,820 Arc User
edited July 2019 in Ten Forward
https://youtu.be/z91fjzqeIzc

Kate is a talented actress, but Jeri Ryan is better and cooler and Kate I think she hates her for being far more popular and stealing the lime light.
Post edited by wingedhussar#7584 on
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  • echattyechatty Member Posts: 5,913 Arc User
    edited July 2019
    And so it was, to an extent. Women in Trek started out being there just as pretty faces. Granted, some of them went beyond that and made their characters awesome, but for the most part, women were there as sexual objects. That was pretty obvious to all but the most ardent asexual person.

    However, I did not see anywhere that says she's angry about Jeri Ryan being in Picard and she (Kate) isn't. That's some pretty hefty extrapolation on that.
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  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,963 Arc User
    Sounds more like something for Ten Forward.

    But when you hear about Gene Roddenberry or the story on why Farrell left DS9 due to Rick Berman you got the feeling there were certainly some misogynist people involved. Or at least people with a questionable attitude toward women.

    I don't think Star Trek itself as a franchise is really mysoginist, tough. Its values were always more humanist, which means all people are equal, regardless of gender or skin color. But the society it is made in hasn't accomplished these ideals yet.
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  • lordgyorlordgyor Member Posts: 2,820 Arc User
    > @echatty said:
    > And so it was, to an extent. Women in Trek started out being there just as pretty faces. Granted, some of them went beyond that and made their characters awesome, but for the most part, women were there as sexual objects. That was pretty obvious to all but the most ardent asexual person.
    >
    > However, I did not see anywhere that says she's angry about Jeri Ryan being in Picard and she (Kate) isn't. That's some pretty hefty extrapolation on that.

    Nothing wrong with sex appeal , the men had it to and the women had deep interesting characters.
  • lordgyorlordgyor Member Posts: 2,820 Arc User
    > @mustrumridcully0 said:
    > Sounds more like something for Ten Forward.
    >
    > But when you hear about Gene Roddenberry or the story on why Farrell left DS9 due to Rick Berman you got the feeling there were certainly some misogynist people involved. Or at least people with a questionable attitude toward women.
    >
    > I don't think Star Trek itself as a franchise is really mysoginist, tough. Its values were always more humanist, which means all people are equal, regardless of gender or skin color. But the society it is made in hasn't accomplished these ideals yet.

    Rick Berman wasn't misogonist, Terry Farrell wan't to turn her job into part time, Berman wasn't okay with that and as his boss he had the right to let her go for refusing to work full time. It sucks, Jadzia was my favourite character, but it wasn't sexism, but business.

    As for Rick Berman having her wear a padded bra, that wasn't sexist, it was smart business decision, sex sells ask Game of Thrones, and it was nothing compared to wearing what were functionally penises for ears with a butt for a forehead like the actors Ferengi did. Actually Sherman had to wear a padded bra too!
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,231 Arc User
    The only woman in GoT who didn't dress sexy was Arya and that's because the character was supposed to be under-age... Maisie Williams was underage when she got the role, but after shooting 7 seasons she'd grown... a lot. So to hide her now considerable assets she had to wear very un-sexy outfits.
    maisie-williams-at-this-morning-in-london-1-24-2017-1.jpg
    And that was her in 2017. :p
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  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 10,354 Arc User
    edited July 2019
    lordgyor wrote: »
    As for Rick Berman having her wear a padded bra, that wasn't sexist, it was smart business decision, sex sells...
    I cannot believe you were able to type that sentence without the weight of the sheer irony breaking your keyboard. "Sex sells" is about as sexist a sentiment as I can imagine this side of the casting couch. Or do you imagine that the primary audience for DS9 was sixteen-year-old boys?
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  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,231 Arc User
    jonsills wrote: »
    lordgyor wrote: »
    As for Rick Berman having her wear a padded bra, that wasn't sexist, it was smart business decision, sex sells...
    I cannot believe you were able to type that sentence without the weight of the sheer irony breaking your keyboard. "Sex sells" is about as sexist a sentiment as I can imagine this side of the casting couch. Or do you imagine that the primary audience for DS9 was sixteen-year-old boys?
    But it's not gender specific though. Why do you think Michael Knight and Magnum dressed like that? Guys can be used as eye-candy too :p
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  • starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,963 Arc User
    jonsills wrote: »
    lordgyor wrote: »
    As for Rick Berman having her wear a padded bra, that wasn't sexist, it was smart business decision, sex sells...
    I cannot believe you were able to type that sentence without the weight of the sheer irony breaking your keyboard. "Sex sells" is about as sexist a sentiment as I can imagine this side of the casting couch. Or do you imagine that the primary audience for DS9 was sixteen-year-old boys?
    So much this.

    Besides, it's not even true that sex sells. A University of Illinois study showed a slight negative correlation between sex-based advertising and increased desire for the product.

    Star Trek's best handling of gender issues by far was DS9: "Rejoined". It's a remarkable episode and one of Terry Farrell's best performances of the whole series.
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  • legendarylycan#5411 legendarylycan Member Posts: 37,276 Arc User
    sex certainly doesn't sell anymore...no need when any idiot with access to a 3D program and some decent skill can just make their own TRIBBLE - and covering fetishes that AREN'T limited to being physically possible like RL stuff is​​
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  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,231 Arc User
    "Sex sells" was a pointlessly blanket generalization. It was only true in specific situations and only when not over-done.

    Example: soap commercial, you show an attractive woman using your soap, but while the audience can see... most of her figure, they can't see the "important" parts.

    Why? Well, seeing a curvy woman gets people's attention. But having actual nudity ruins the effect by being raunchy. It's a basic advertising principle. You write ads based on the expected audience's interests and avoid things they dislike.

    In TV it's how you end up with stuff like T'Pol and Troi's outfits, or Kirk's tunic... or how Kirk's jacket got ripped off so often. :p It's subtle and not in-your-face... mostly.
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  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,963 Arc User
    jonsills wrote: »
    lordgyor wrote: »
    As for Rick Berman having her wear a padded bra, that wasn't sexist, it was smart business decision, sex sells...
    I cannot believe you were able to type that sentence without the weight of the sheer irony breaking your keyboard. "Sex sells" is about as sexist a sentiment as I can imagine this side of the casting couch. Or do you imagine that the primary audience for DS9 was sixteen-year-old boys?
    Thanks.. I was wondering if someone was going to pick up on that since yesterday night.
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  • lazarus51166lazarus51166 Member Posts: 646 Arc User
    starswordc wrote: »
    jonsills wrote: »
    lordgyor wrote: »
    As for Rick Berman having her wear a padded bra, that wasn't sexist, it was smart business decision, sex sells...
    I cannot believe you were able to type that sentence without the weight of the sheer irony breaking your keyboard. "Sex sells" is about as sexist a sentiment as I can imagine this side of the casting couch. Or do you imagine that the primary audience for DS9 was sixteen-year-old boys?
    So much this.

    Besides, it's not even true that sex sells. A University of Illinois study showed a slight negative correlation between sex-based advertising and increased desire for the product.

    Star Trek's best handling of gender issues by far was DS9: "Rejoined". It's a remarkable episode and one of Terry Farrell's best performances of the whole series.


    Yeah....No. There are plenty of bs 'studies' out there that spout all kinds of nonsense. Especially these days. Anybody claiming that 'sex sells' is not true fact needs their head examined. Try telling that to literally any marketing company in existence and see what kind of reaction you get. Or in any program where marketing is taught for that matter. Or, you know, the entire modelling industry. What do you think that industry is all about? Its literally marketing 101. Do you know why that is? Because it sells. Or do you really think they use attractive models to sell products for no reason at all?

    and no jonsills, its not sexist to state a fact. Nor is using sex to sell anything even remotely limited to women

    That said, getting back to the OP, kate mulgrew is virtue signalling. Thats all it is. and its ironic as hell considering its coming from the first female captain in a star trek series. It makes her sound nuts and as it always does, it will backfire on her before too long. She has a history of putting her foot in her mouth and saying stupid things. Remember what happened with her and jeri ryan. This is just the latest example
  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 10,354 Arc User
    In my experience, "virtue signaling" is a phrase used pretty much exclusively by people who can't imagine anyone holding any virtuous beliefs sincerely. Just sayin'.
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  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,963 Arc User
    jonsills wrote: »
    In my experience, "virtue signaling" is a phrase used pretty much exclusively by people who can't imagine anyone holding any virtuous beliefs sincerely. Just sayin'.
    I am actually willing to belief that virtual signaling is a thing, but the moment someone is using those words, it makes me skeptical about them, and not the person they are accusing.

    Demanding women to stuff their bra to make them sexier is sexist behavior. It reduces them to their sex appeal. "Sex sells" is an insufficient argument for doing that, if it was enough, Starfleet uniforms should look more like bathing suites and less like pajamas.
    Maybe if Star Trek producers had demanded Brookes, Stewart, Frakes or Siddig's to stuff their pants so they look sexier to the female audience than maybe there was a chance it wasn't sexist. But I don't think they did.

    Also, they actually made an effort to ensure that Colm Meaney could stay on the cast, working his schedule around his movie schedule. That Berman would not give the same courtesy to Terry Farrel is certainly a good indicator for sexist attitude. Considering that DS9 had a huge ensemble cast, it would not be so difficult to give her a bit smaller role.
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  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 10,354 Arc User
    And the fact that something is worse makes the bad thing okay? Would it be acceptable to you to burn your house to the ground because forest fires are bigger?
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  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 11,556 Arc User
    azrael605 wrote: »
    Rofl, some of ya'll need to try watching some European TV commercials if you think anything on American TV is bad. Here I'll share some. Warning, not safe for work, church, or non-European social settings.

    Video removed by moderator due to being NSFW. If you want to see it, PM azrael. -- WingedHussar

    Or the standard Hot Spring anime episode.
  • darkbladejkdarkbladejk Member Posts: 3,698 Community Moderator
    Just dropping in long enough to remind everyone to keep it civil. Folks are entitled to their opinions in the positive in the negative on this manor. Let's keep the debating civil.
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  • sthe91sthe91 Member Posts: 5,406 Arc User
    edited July 2019
    Just dropping in long enough to remind everyone to keep it civil. Folks are entitled to their opinions in the positive in the negative on this manor. Let's keep the debating civil.

    Not sure what a manor has to do with this conversation but I do agree with the sentiment in regards to manners. Carry on! But I wholeheartedly disagree with Kate Mulgrew, she was the first female captain of a starship.
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  • theboxisredtheboxisred Member Posts: 450 Arc User
    Nope, sorry, but Virtue Signaling, regardless of ones perceived experiences, is more accurately described as one of the preferred tactics of those moral supremacists who are desperate to have others think highly of them and they of themselves. And yes, there are those who rely too heavily on pointing it out.

    "Sex sells..."
    In spite of the proliferation and profitability of the "Adult Special Interest" Industry, that expression is a misnomer to say the least. It isn't sex that sells; Sexy sells. Since what is sexy depends greatly upon ones point of view (Obiwan Kenobi) it is questionable to immediately jump to the Sexism Conclusion, especially when one chooses to ignore those variable that would debunk said conclusion.

    Star Trek: Voyager, however, was possessed of one particularly interesting element that could be described as sexist for it's full run that I never hear any one talk about. Ask yourself, "What sets Captains Archer, Georgiou, Lorca, Pike, Kirk, Picard, and Sisko apart from Captain Janeway?"

    Answer: The captain's chair.

    Everyone but Janeway sat in The Center Seat. Meanwhile Janeway shared a command bench with Chakotay. Then, as if that wasn't insult enough, he sat to her left and she to his left suggesting that Janeway was in the position of Right Hand Man. Now that is, if not sexist, then it's certainly a huge insult.

    Have some more fun; Go back all the way to The Original Series and notice how even the most scantily clad female characters were experts in their chosen fields, even when the fields in question were, uh... questionable (I'm looking at you Orion Slave Girls and Dabo Girls). What they lacked in costume material they made up for with competence. That is what made them sexy. Well, at least to me.

    Ms. Mulgrew, it seems, views and judges people by only one metric. If you ask me that makes her quite shallow indeed.
  • smokebaileysmokebailey Member Posts: 4,659 Arc User
    echatty wrote: »
    And so it was, to an extent. Women in Trek started out being there just as pretty faces. Granted, some of them went beyond that and made their characters awesome, but for the most part, women were there as sexual objects. That was pretty obvious to all but the most ardent asexual person.

    However, I did not see anywhere that says she's angry about Jeri Ryan being in Picard and she (Kate) isn't. That's some pretty hefty extrapolation on that.

    Depends. In TOS, the actresses enjoyed the miniskirt uniforms, since it allowed them to both be professionals, and still be girls, you know.

    Personally, I always felt Mulgrew was a bit of an uptight cow, in my own opinion.
    dvZq2Aj.jpg
  • smokebaileysmokebailey Member Posts: 4,659 Arc User

    Have some more fun; Go back all the way to The Original Series and notice how even the most scantily clad female characters were experts in their chosen fields, even when the fields in question were, uh... questionable (I'm looking at you Orion Slave Girls and Dabo Girls). What they lacked in costume material they made up for with competence. That is what made them sexy. Well, at least to me.

    d1Bhlgl.jpg
    That's one of the many reasons I love TOS, and feel it's the best of 'em all. The actresses loved it as well, they could be both pros at their work AND still be sexy at it. One reason I make my characters in my comics wearing similar style uniforms, the boys AND the girls. One can be good at what one does and have style at it. It also helped remove a good chuck of militarism as well, not to mention it did not feel like some stuffy, oppressed modern day office environment, where you so much as breathe wrong and you get hostile looks at you. Another example is in Macross (Robotech to you not familiar with anime), the bridge crew also wore miniskirts, high heels and had their hair all made up, and were able to operate the ship just fine when the Zentradi were blasting at the SDF-1.

    Mulgrew needs to remove that broomstick that's crammed up her you know what. :s
    Personally, I am GLAD she was not in Delta Rising. :/


    Anyhow....there were no Dabo girls in TOS. :o
    dvZq2Aj.jpg
  • theboxisredtheboxisred Member Posts: 450 Arc User

    Have some more fun; Go back all the way to The Original Series and notice how even the most scantily clad female characters were experts in their chosen fields, even when the fields in question were, uh... questionable (I'm looking at you Orion Slave Girls and Dabo Girls). What they lacked in costume material they made up for with competence. That is what made them sexy. Well, at least to me.

    d1Bhlgl.jpg
    That's one of the many reasons I love TOS, and feel it's the best of 'em all. The actresses loved it as well, they could be both pros at their work AND still be sexy at it. One reason I make my characters in my comics wearing similar style uniforms, the boys AND the girls. One can be good at what one does and have style at it. It also helped remove a good chuck of militarism as well, not to mention it did not feel like some stuffy, oppressed modern day office environment, where you so much as breathe wrong and you get hostile looks at you. Another example is in Macross (Robotech to you not familiar with anime), the bridge crew also wore miniskirts, high heels and had their hair all made up, and were able to operate the ship just fine when the Zentradi were blasting at the SDF-1.

    Mulgrew needs to remove that broomstick that's crammed up her you know what. :s
    Personally, I am GLAD she was not in Delta Rising. :/


    Anyhow....there were no Dabo girls in TOS. :o

    Yes, no Dabo Girls in TOS. My own fault, though, because I was quite vague in that I was referring to all of Trek going back to TOS.

    P.S.
    COOKIES!
    That is all.
  • casualstocasualsto Member Posts: 672 Arc User
    Star Trek allowed women to be women, with dignity and with an amazing portrayal of modesty, competence and other honorable features.

    Most of the female characters we've encountered before Discovery were admirable at least once during their presence in the show, even if they were villains of the story.

    It's a shame that the sole actress who made a career out of (and only of) Star Trek, managed to spew this out just to get back into the lights. She benefited from enjoying a role filled with defiance and independence, even at the cost of others (Just watch Voyager, Janeway is the least responsible captain when it comes to maintaining a believable and integral relationship with the crew.)

    It's a shame that, as an old woman, the last ace in the sleeve is to call Star Trek that way just to get some headlights on you. I find this to be a "ride-the-wave" tactic, but she's a few years too late. This "blame men" game is pretty much 2017. We've grown pass this. At least I hope so.
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