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ship size discrepancy

warmonger360warmonger360 Member Posts: 524 Arc User
edited June 2019 in Ten Forward
I think I can account for it. TOS Enterprise used duotronics computer technology, requiring less space for both the "mainframe" and the crew to maintain it, and thereby requiring less space for crew quarters, as well as less space for peripherals like printer as evidenced in The Cage for hardcopy printouts. DSC Enterprise, on the other hand likely didn't use duotronics, hence requiring more space making for a somewhat larger ship. the prob is, how did Starfleet go about reducing the size of TOS Enterprise. see as the nacelles are almost the same length, and the secondary hull, it's possible the primary hull was reduced by however many ft around the outer edge.
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Post edited by baddmoonrizin on
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Comments

  • equinox976equinox976 Member Posts: 2,267 Arc User
    edited June 2019
    Bah got deleted again, can't be bothered retyping it all :pensive:
  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,450 Bug Hunter
    What on Earth is this thread about?
    22762792376_ac7c992b7c_o.png
    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
    JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

    #TASforSTO


    '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
    'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
    'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
    '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
    'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
    '...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek

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  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,963 Arc User
    artan42 wrote: »
    What on Earth is this thread about?

    Nothing. It's about space ships, they aren't on Earth. Duh.
    Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,450 Bug Hunter
    artan42 wrote: »
    What on Earth is this thread about?

    Nothing. It's about space ships, they aren't on Earth. Duh.

    They build them on Earth. In Iowa.
    22762792376_ac7c992b7c_o.png
    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
    JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

    #TASforSTO


    '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
    'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
    'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
    '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
    'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
    '...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek

    Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,450 Bug Hunter
    Nevermind, I've worked out it's some edgelord whining about something to do with DSC due to their edgy attempt to get around the filter by making themselves look like a pillock rather than using the correct acronym.

    They also seem to be under the delusion the tiny size for the Conni is in any way canon unlike the canonical MSD in ENT that shows it to be about 10m shorter than the prefit in DSC mainly due to the pylons not being swept.

    Lazy.
    22762792376_ac7c992b7c_o.png
    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
    JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

    #TASforSTO


    '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
    'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
    'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
    '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
    'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
    '...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek

    Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
  • angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 11,001 Arc User
    artan42 wrote: »
    artan42 wrote: »
    What on Earth is this thread about?

    Nothing. It's about space ships, they aren't on Earth. Duh.

    They build them on Earth. In Iowa.

    Naw, that was a flying submarine.​​
    lFC4bt2.gif
    ^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
    "No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
    "A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
    "That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,450 Bug Hunter
    angrytarg wrote: »
    artan42 wrote: »
    artan42 wrote: »
    What on Earth is this thread about?

    Nothing. It's about space ships, they aren't on Earth. Duh.

    They build them on Earth. In Iowa.

    Naw, that was a flying submarine.​​

    It goes under the water through the atmosphere?

    Does it only work on waterworlds?

    Also, this thread is not related to STO, its lazy headcanon to justify long standing fanfiction against actual canon and should be in Ten Forward.
    22762792376_ac7c992b7c_o.png
    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
    JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

    #TASforSTO


    '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
    'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
    'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
    '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
    'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
    '...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek

    Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
  • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 9,427 Arc User
    edited June 2019
    artan42 wrote: »
    What on Earth is this thread about?
    I would assume, it's about the https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Constitution_class_model_(retcon) being larger than the TOS version.
  • angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 11,001 Arc User
    artan42 wrote: »
    It goes under the water through the atmosphere?

    Does it only work on waterworlds?

    Also, this thread is not related to STO, its lazy headcanon to justify long standing fanfiction against actual canon and should be in Ten Forward.

    star-trek-into-darkness-enterprise-underwater-wallpaper-photo-For-Laptop-Wallpaper.jpg


    02Triton.png


    Same thing, really pig-2.gif​​
    lFC4bt2.gif
    ^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
    "No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
    "A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
    "That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,450 Bug Hunter
    warpangel wrote: »
    artan42 wrote: »
    What on Earth is this thread about?
    I would assume, it's about the https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Constitution_class_model_(retcon) being larger than the TOS version.

    But it's not according to canonical sources. It's only larger if you pay much attention to 50 year old fanfiction.
    22762792376_ac7c992b7c_o.png
    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
    JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

    #TASforSTO


    '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
    'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
    'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
    '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
    'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
    '...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek

    Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 57,973 Community Moderator
    edited June 2019
    I believe the accepted length of the TOS Connie is 295 meters or so. The TMP Refit being 305. However note that the length may come from an upsized saucer and angled nacelle pylons. Not just a size increase.

    However... proprotionally... the Discovery variant matches pretty well with the TOS.

    dis-tos-enterprise.jpg
    Even with the larger size, she pretty much lines up.
    And honestly I don't mind if the Discovery variant is "bigger". They still kept her size low enough that it was believable. Unlike the supposed 700+ meters of the Kelvin Connie. STILL don't buy that. She's frickin 366 meters long.
    db80k0m-89201ed8-eadb-45d3-830f-bb2f0d4c0fe7.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcL2ExOGQ4ZWM2LTUyZjQtNDdiMS05YTI1LTVlYmZkYmJkOGM3N1wvZGI4MGswbS04OTIwMWVkOC1lYWRiLTQ1ZDMtODMwZi1iYjJmMGQ0YzBmZTcucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.8G-Pg35Qi8qxiKLjAofaKRH6fmNH3qAAEI628gW0eXc
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • phoenixc#0738 phoenixc Member Posts: 5,459 Arc User
    artan42 wrote: »
    Nevermind, I've worked out it's some edgelord whining about something to do with DSC due to their edgy attempt to get around the filter by making themselves look like a pillock rather than using the correct acronym.

    They also seem to be under the delusion the tiny size for the Conni is in any way canon unlike the canonical MSD in ENT that shows it to be about 10m shorter than the prefit in DSC mainly due to the pylons not being swept.

    Lazy.

    And what makes you think that the MSD in ENT is any more canon than the briefing room display in the episode "The Enterprise Incident" in TOS itself which shows the Enterprise, the Romulan D7 conversion, and a scale ruler? If anything the onscreen canon size of the Constitution class is 47 feet shorter than the official figure of 947 feet if you go by that scale literally (which puts it as 900 feet).

    latest?cb=20090218232610&path-prefix=en

    The actual shooting models have scale notations that put the ship at approximately 947 feet, the internal documentation for the show gave that figure (along with several others at times, like the ship was originally supposed to be 200 feet long and the entire teardrop shaped structure on top of the saucer was the bridge but they decided to make it real-world aircraft-carrier sized instead as the pre-production phase went along), and Jefferies himself mentioned the figure in interviews.
  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 10,354 Arc User
    The KT movies suffered terribly from "bigger is better", probably infected by the Star Wars universe (that stuff's really virulent - you have to practice safe crossover, people!).
    Lorna-Wing-sig.png
  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,963 Arc User
    artan42 wrote: »
    artan42 wrote: »
    What on Earth is this thread about?

    Nothing. It's about space ships, they aren't on Earth. Duh.

    They build them on Earth. In Iowa.

    When they are still in Iowa, they are Iowa Ships, obviously. Come on, this isn't rocket science. It's warp science, which is much harder!
    Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 57,973 Community Moderator
    Honestly the ONLY thing that makes the Kelvin Connie absurdly huge is the blasted shuttlebay scene. A scene that is soon after debunked IN THE SAME MOVIE.

    Here we see the reason for the upscale.
    enterprise-shuttlebay.jpg
    Shuttles can practically go in side by side.
    But then we get this scene...
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvg_XuP-9RY
    Behold... the same shuttle that was tiny at Earth... is bigger at Vulcan.
    db80k0m-89201ed8-eadb-45d3-830f-bb2f0d4c0fe7.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcL2ExOGQ4ZWM2LTUyZjQtNDdiMS05YTI1LTVlYmZkYmJkOGM3N1wvZGI4MGswbS04OTIwMWVkOC1lYWRiLTQ1ZDMtODMwZi1iYjJmMGQ0YzBmZTcucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.8G-Pg35Qi8qxiKLjAofaKRH6fmNH3qAAEI628gW0eXc
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • phoenixc#0738 phoenixc Member Posts: 5,459 Arc User
    edited June 2019
    artan42 wrote: »
    Nevermind, I've worked out it's some edgelord whining about something to do with DSC due to their edgy attempt to get around the filter by making themselves look like a pillock rather than using the correct acronym.

    They also seem to be under the delusion the tiny size for the Conni is in any way canon unlike the canonical MSD in ENT that shows it to be about 10m shorter than the prefit in DSC mainly due to the pylons not being swept.

    Lazy.

    And what makes you think that the MSD in ENT is any more canon than the briefing room display in the episode "The Enterprise Incident" in TOS itself which shows the Enterprise, the Romulan D7 conversion, and a scale ruler? If anything the onscreen canon size of the Constitution class is 47 feet shorter than the official figure of 947 feet if you go by that scale literally (which puts it as 900 feet).

    latest?cb=20090218232610&path-prefix=en

    The actual shooting models have scale notations that put the ship at approximately 947 feet, the internal documentation for the show gave that figure (along with several others at times, like the ship was originally supposed to be 200 feet long and the entire teardrop shaped structure on top of the saucer was the bridge but they decided to make it real-world aircraft-carrier sized instead as the pre-production phase went along), and Jefferies himself mentioned the figure in interviews.
    angrytarg wrote: »
    artan42 wrote: »
    It goes under the water through the atmosphere?

    Does it only work on waterworlds?

    Also, this thread is not related to STO, its lazy headcanon to justify long standing fanfiction against actual canon and should be in Ten Forward.

    star-trek-into-darkness-enterprise-underwater-wallpaper-photo-For-Laptop-Wallpaper.jpg


    02Triton.png


    Same thing, really pig-2.gif​​

    Actually it does have bearing on STO considering the model of the DSC Enterprise is bigger than the models of the TOS Enterprise. In fact, a livestream recently answered the question of whether you could kitbash the DSC ship with the TOS version parts and the answer was that the models were at different sizes to represent the different lengths in the source material and at this time there are no plans to do rescaled versions of the parts to make that possible.
  • ryan218ryan218 Member Posts: 36,106 Arc User
    azrael605 wrote: »
    > @phoenixc#0738 said:
    > artan42 wrote: »
    >
    > Nevermind, I've worked out it's some edgelord whining about something to do with DSC due to their edgy attempt to get around the filter by making themselves look like a pillock rather than using the correct acronym.
    >
    > They also seem to be under the delusion the tiny size for the Conni is in any way canon unlike the canonical MSD in ENT that shows it to be about 10m shorter than the prefit in DSC mainly due to the pylons not being swept.
    >
    > Lazy.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > And what makes you think that the MSD in ENT is any more canon than the briefing room display in the episode "The Enterprise Incident" in TOS itself which shows the Enterprise, the Romulan D7 conversion, and a scale ruler? If anything the onscreen canon size of the Constitution class is 47 feet shorter than the official figure of 947 feet if you go by that scale literally (which puts it as 900 feet).
    >
    >
    >
    > The actual shooting models have scale notations that put the ship at approximately 947 feet, the internal documentation for the show gave that figure (along with several others at times, like the ship was originally supposed to be 200 feet long and the entire teardrop shaped structure on top of the saucer was the bridge but they decided to make it real-world aircraft-carrier sized instead as the pre-production phase went along), and Jefferies himself mentioned the figure in interviews.

    When a new piece of canon disagrees with an older piece of canon then the newer piece superscedes the older. This is how it always works especially with Trek. Early on in TOS canon said the ship was launched by the United Earth Space Probe Agency and recieved their orders from Space Command. When it became the United Federation of Planets and Starfleet the new canon displaced the old. So when a new piece of canon in Discovery disagrees with that canon screen shot it means that screenshot is retconned just the same as UESPA and Space Command. Thus it has always been and always shal.be.

    Except of course ENT retconned UESPA back into canon (it's seen on one of the Starfleet Command buildings in an episode I believe). Implying that UESPA and TOS's Starfleet are the same organisation.
  • ryan218ryan218 Member Posts: 36,106 Arc User
    azrael605 wrote: »
    > @ryan218 said:
    > azrael605 wrote: »
    >
    > > @phoenixc#0738 said:
    > > artan42 wrote: »
    > >
    > > Nevermind, I've worked out it's some edgelord whining about something to do with DSC due to their edgy attempt to get around the filter by making themselves look like a pillock rather than using the correct acronym.
    > >
    > > They also seem to be under the delusion the tiny size for the Conni is in any way canon unlike the canonical MSD in ENT that shows it to be about 10m shorter than the prefit in DSC mainly due to the pylons not being swept.
    > >
    > > Lazy.
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > And what makes you think that the MSD in ENT is any more canon than the briefing room display in the episode "The Enterprise Incident" in TOS itself which shows the Enterprise, the Romulan D7 conversion, and a scale ruler? If anything the onscreen canon size of the Constitution class is 47 feet shorter than the official figure of 947 feet if you go by that scale literally (which puts it as 900 feet).
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > The actual shooting models have scale notations that put the ship at approximately 947 feet, the internal documentation for the show gave that figure (along with several others at times, like the ship was originally supposed to be 200 feet long and the entire teardrop shaped structure on top of the saucer was the bridge but they decided to make it real-world aircraft-carrier sized instead as the pre-production phase went along), and Jefferies himself mentioned the figure in interviews.
    >
    > When a new piece of canon disagrees with an older piece of canon then the newer piece superscedes the older. This is how it always works especially with Trek. Early on in TOS canon said the ship was launched by the United Earth Space Probe Agency and recieved their orders from Space Command. When it became the United Federation of Planets and Starfleet the new canon displaced the old. So when a new piece of canon in Discovery disagrees with that canon screen shot it means that screenshot is retconned just the same as UESPA and Space Command. Thus it has always been and always shal.be.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Except of course ENT retconned UESPA back into canon (it's seen on one of the Starfleet Command buildings in an episode I believe). Implying that UESPA and TOS's Starfleet are the same organisation.

    Incorrect. Enterprise takes place before the founding of the Federation. UESPA is replaced by the Federation in the final episode of ENT. So while yes they did retcon UESPA back in it neither conflicts with my point nor implies anything whatever about TOS.

    The Federation is a political entity, not a space exploration/paramilitary force. It superceded United Earth (which remained a member) not UESPA, which was the UE space programme. At best, the Federation replaced the UESPA Starfleet with its own, but that isn't any more canon than the idea UESPA is the same organisation as Kirk's Starfleet. Both have onscreen evidence, such as Kirk mentioning UESPA in the same time period as the UFP, or the fact that Federation President Jaresh Inyo referred to himself as Leyton's Commander-in-Chief - which it's worth noting contradicts TUC, where the C-in-C was not the same person as the President.
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 57,973 Community Moderator
    edited June 2019
    UESPA and Starfleet are apparently two different entities before merging.
    https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/United_Earth_Space_Probe_Agency
    By the 2130s, UESPA had been integrated with Starfleet as the leading United Earth space exploration service. Together, UESPA and Starfleet accomplished many missions. (ENT: "First Flight")

    In the 2150s, various UESPA personnel were involved in the construction of NX-class starships. (ENT: "Broken Bow", dedication plaque; ENT: "Affliction", dedication plaque)

    However the NX-01 is a Starfleet ship. Not a UESPA ship.
    Only 2 UESPA officers were involved with the NX-01.
    • Captain G. Roddenberry
    • Captain W.M. Jefferies
    db80k0m-89201ed8-eadb-45d3-830f-bb2f0d4c0fe7.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcL2ExOGQ4ZWM2LTUyZjQtNDdiMS05YTI1LTVlYmZkYmJkOGM3N1wvZGI4MGswbS04OTIwMWVkOC1lYWRiLTQ1ZDMtODMwZi1iYjJmMGQ0YzBmZTcucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.8G-Pg35Qi8qxiKLjAofaKRH6fmNH3qAAEI628gW0eXc
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • phoenixc#0738 phoenixc Member Posts: 5,459 Arc User
    azrael605 wrote: »
    > @phoenixc#0738 said:
    > artan42 wrote: »
    >
    > Nevermind, I've worked out it's some edgelord whining about something to do with DSC due to their edgy attempt to get around the filter by making themselves look like a pillock rather than using the correct acronym.
    >
    > They also seem to be under the delusion the tiny size for the Conni is in any way canon unlike the canonical MSD in ENT that shows it to be about 10m shorter than the prefit in DSC mainly due to the pylons not being swept.
    >
    > Lazy.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > And what makes you think that the MSD in ENT is any more canon than the briefing room display in the episode "The Enterprise Incident" in TOS itself which shows the Enterprise, the Romulan D7 conversion, and a scale ruler? If anything the onscreen canon size of the Constitution class is 47 feet shorter than the official figure of 947 feet if you go by that scale literally (which puts it as 900 feet).
    >
    >
    >
    > The actual shooting models have scale notations that put the ship at approximately 947 feet, the internal documentation for the show gave that figure (along with several others at times, like the ship was originally supposed to be 200 feet long and the entire teardrop shaped structure on top of the saucer was the bridge but they decided to make it real-world aircraft-carrier sized instead as the pre-production phase went along), and Jefferies himself mentioned the figure in interviews.

    When a new piece of canon disagrees with an older piece of canon then the newer piece superscedes the older. This is how it always works especially with Trek. Early on in TOS canon said the ship was launched by the United Earth Space Probe Agency and recieved their orders from Space Command. When it became the United Federation of Planets and Starfleet the new canon displaced the old. So when a new piece of canon in Discovery disagrees with that canon screen shot it means that screenshot is retconned just the same as UESPA and Space Command. Thus it has always been and always shal.be.

    Actually, Roddenberry usually took the opposite approach, that older canon is more valid than newer canon, even going so far as to say that they only real canon was the first two seasons of TOS and everything else was just an approximation at best. He later loosened up about that, but he still ruled in favor of older canon most often with his notoriously capricious pronouncements.
    azrael605 wrote: »
    > @ryan218 said:
    > azrael605 wrote: »
    >
    > > @ryan218 said:
    > > azrael605 wrote: »
    > >
    > > > @phoenixc#0738 said:
    > > > artan42 wrote: »
    > > >
    > > > Nevermind, I've worked out it's some edgelord whining about something to do with DSC due to their edgy attempt to get around the filter by making themselves look like a pillock rather than using the correct acronym.
    > > >
    > > > They also seem to be under the delusion the tiny size for the Conni is in any way canon unlike the canonical MSD in ENT that shows it to be about 10m shorter than the prefit in DSC mainly due to the pylons not being swept.
    > > >
    > > > Lazy.
    > > >
    > > >
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > And what makes you think that the MSD in ENT is any more canon than the briefing room display in the episode "The Enterprise Incident" in TOS itself which shows the Enterprise, the Romulan D7 conversion, and a scale ruler? If anything the onscreen canon size of the Constitution class is 47 feet shorter than the official figure of 947 feet if you go by that scale literally (which puts it as 900 feet).
    > > >
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > The actual shooting models have scale notations that put the ship at approximately 947 feet, the internal documentation for the show gave that figure (along with several others at times, like the ship was originally supposed to be 200 feet long and the entire teardrop shaped structure on top of the saucer was the bridge but they decided to make it real-world aircraft-carrier sized instead as the pre-production phase went along), and Jefferies himself mentioned the figure in interviews.
    > >
    > > When a new piece of canon disagrees with an older piece of canon then the newer piece superscedes the older. This is how it always works especially with Trek. Early on in TOS canon said the ship was launched by the United Earth Space Probe Agency and recieved their orders from Space Command. When it became the United Federation of Planets and Starfleet the new canon displaced the old. So when a new piece of canon in Discovery disagrees with that canon screen shot it means that screenshot is retconned just the same as UESPA and Space Command. Thus it has always been and always shal.be.
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > Except of course ENT retconned UESPA back into canon (it's seen on one of the Starfleet Command buildings in an episode I believe). Implying that UESPA and TOS's Starfleet are the same organisation.
    >
    > Incorrect. Enterprise takes place before the founding of the Federation. UESPA is replaced by the Federation in the final episode of ENT. So while yes they did retcon UESPA back in it neither conflicts with my point nor implies anything whatever about TOS.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > The Federation is a political entity, not a space exploration/paramilitary force. It superceded United Earth (which remained a member) not UESPA, which was the UE space programme. At best, the Federation replaced the UESPA Starfleet with its own, but that isn't any more canon than the idea UESPA is the same organisation as Kirk's Starfleet. Both have onscreen evidence, such as Kirk mentioning UESPA in the same time period as the UFP, or the fact that Federation President Jaresh Inyo referred to himself as Leyton's Commander-in-Chief - which it's worth noting contradicts TUC, where the C-in-C was not the same person as the President.

    There are no overlapping mentions of UESPA and the UFP anywhere in Trek. UESPA was retconned out and replaced with the UFP Starfleet which would have been meaningless if the UE was not also and simultaneously retconned out with the UFP itself. Again like I said during Enterprise right up to the last frame of the final episode the Federation does not exist, Archer works for the UE and no other political entity, so that is why the writers chose to retcon the UESPA back in as a pre-federation entity.

    UESPA was not "retconned out", the official explanation was that Enterprise was passed around between departments within Starfleet a bit before the organization was streamlined. It is the same as the way the Vulcan Diplomatic Corps was part of the Federation diplomatic service while at the same time being a Vulcan institution. In TOS there were ships that were generic Federation but also ones associated with a particular planet as well, such as the Enterprise was with Earth and Intrepid was with Vulcan even though they were all part of Starfleet together. It is not like that kind of organizational mess is absent from the real world where separate or semi-separate political entities combine operational units, so why should the Federation be any less of a tangle under the same situation?
  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 10,354 Arc User
    rattler2 wrote: »
    UESPA and Starfleet are apparently two different entities before merging.
    https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/United_Earth_Space_Probe_Agency
    By the 2130s, UESPA had been integrated with Starfleet as the leading United Earth space exploration service. Together, UESPA and Starfleet accomplished many missions. (ENT: "First Flight")

    In the 2150s, various UESPA personnel were involved in the construction of NX-class starships. (ENT: "Broken Bow", dedication plaque; ENT: "Affliction", dedication plaque)

    However the NX-01 is a Starfleet ship. Not a UESPA ship.
    Only 2 UESPA officers were involved with the NX-01.
    • Captain G. Roddenberry
    • Captain W.M. Jefferies
    Well, most of her crew were UESPA Star Fleet officers, except her science officer, Subcommander T'Pol of Vulcan High Command (at least until she resigned from High Command in 2154 and transferred to Star Fleet, where she was commissioned as a Commander).

    Remember that it was Gene Coon who was responsible for the United Federation of Planets and Starfleet Command (and the Klingons and Romulans...). Roddenberry's script for the second pilot, "Where No Man Has Gone Before", mentioned that the SS Valiant was registered with the UESPA - and that it had been recorded as lost "two hundred years ago" (Gene R was a little vague about how far into the future his show was supposed to be set; remember that originally, Spock was to be half-Martian).
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  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,450 Bug Hunter
    rattler2 wrote: »
    I believe the accepted length of the TOS Connie is 295 meters or so. The TMP Refit being 305. However note that the length may come from an upsized saucer and angled nacelle pylons. Not just a size increase.

    However... proprotionally... the Discovery variant matches pretty well with the TOS.

    dis-tos-enterprise.jpg
    Even with the larger size, she pretty much lines up.
    And honestly I don't mind if the Discovery variant is "bigger". They still kept her size low enough that it was believable. Unlike the supposed 700+ meters of the Kelvin Connie. STILL don't buy that. She's frickin 366 meters long.

    Both the 'commonly accepted sizes' of 195 and the over 700m are still equally wrong. The deck layouts of both ships (the former from its MSD and the latter from the cut open model) give around 450ish and 350ish metres respectively.
    And what makes you think that the MSD in ENT is any more canon than the briefing room display in the episode "The Enterprise Incident" in TOS itself which shows the Enterprise, the Romulan D7 conversion, and a scale ruler? If anything the onscreen canon size of the Constitution class is 47 feet shorter than the official figure of 947 feet if you go by that scale literally (which puts it as 900 feet).

    Because the scale is not recognisable. It dosn't show readable numbers, only the relative scales of the D7 and Conni where as figures can be made out on the MSD.
    I don't know what feet are but if you 'know' that the canonical figure is 900 of these feet then why claim it's 947 feet.
    The actual shooting models have scale notations that put the ship at approximately 947 feet, the internal documentation for the show gave that figure (along with several others at times, like the ship was originally supposed to be 200 feet long and the entire teardrop shaped structure on top of the saucer was the bridge but they decided to make it real-world aircraft-carrier sized instead as the pre-production phase went along), and Jefferies himself mentioned the figure in interviews.

    Irrelevant as those details didn't make it onscreen.
    jonsills wrote: »
    The KT movies suffered terribly from "bigger is better", probably infected by the Star Wars universe (that stuff's really virulent - you have to practice safe crossover, people!).

    No they didn't. The ship momentarily being scaled up for dramatic effect in the exact same way the Bounty was in TVH does not make the ships the supersized juggernauts people seem to think they are.
    rattler2 wrote: »
    Honestly the ONLY thing that makes the Kelvin Connie absurdly huge is the blasted shuttlebay scene. A scene that is soon after debunked IN THE SAME MOVIE.

    Here we see the reason for the upscale.

    Shuttles can practically go in side by side.
    But then we get this scene...

    Behold... the same shuttle that was tiny at Earth... is bigger at Vulcan.

    Exactly. The same thing happens with the Intrepid. To fit and launch the Delta Flyer it needs to be the size of the Sovereign Class, which we can see from the damage in Year of Hell and the zoom outs of Janeway from her ready room it is not.
    Actually, Roddenberry usually took the opposite approach, that older canon is more valid than newer canon, even going so far as to say that they only real canon was the first two seasons of TOS and everything else was just an approximation at best. He later loosened up about that, but he still ruled in favor of older canon most often with his notoriously capricious pronouncements.

    What Roddenberry did or did not do is relevant as canon is set by CBS not Roddenberry. I don't believe CBS has ever said whether newer or older material is more canonical, and I don't think they mch care, they simply reference newer material far more than older material so the older stuff is out of continuity by default. This has been the case since during TOS.

    The Starship Class USS Enterprise of the UESPA, captained by James R Kirk, and first officered by yellow-shirted, Half-Vulcan science officer Mr Spock (as he's officially addressed on documents), a Vulconis with a human ancestor from a planet with no moon. This ship breaks the time warp barrier and can travel at warp 14 and is powered by lithium and is able to reach both the Galactic Barrier and Galactic Centre in well under 7 years.

    Every single part of that statement was retconned in TOS and the TOS films apart from the warp 10 limit (TNG) and the Galactic travel times (VGR).

    UESPA exists until the founding of the Federation. After that all Starships are operated by either the Federation Starfleet or small, non-Starfleet groups (like the Regula 1 station or The Raven). It's apparent command of the Enterprise in TOS was retconned.
    UESPA was not "retconned out", the official explanation was that Enterprise was passed around between departments within Starfleet a bit before the organization was streamlined. It is the same as the way the Vulcan Diplomatic Corps was part of the Federation diplomatic service while at the same time being a Vulcan institution. In TOS there were ships that were generic Federation but also ones associated with a particular planet as well, such as the Enterprise was with Earth and Intrepid was with Vulcan even though they were all part of Starfleet together. It is not like that kind of organizational mess is absent from the real world where separate or semi-separate political entities combine operational units, so why should the Federation be any less of a tangle under the same situation?

    None of that is either official or canonical.​​
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    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
    JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

    #TASforSTO


    '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
    'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
    'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
    '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
    'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
    '...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek

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  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 10,354 Arc User
    artan42 wrote: »
    The Starship Class USS Enterprise of the UESPA, captained by James R Kirk, and first officered by yellow-shirted, Half-Vulcan science officer Mr Spock (as he's officially addressed on documents), a Vulconis with a human ancestor from a planet with no moon. This ship breaks the time warp barrier and can travel at warp 14 and is powered by lithium and is able to reach both the Galactic Barrier and Galactic Centre in well under 7 years.
    Vulcanian, from Vulcan. You know, that planet with no moon? :wink:

    Oh, and the warp factor thing was reworked, not retconned - the warp speeds in TOS are (while undefined) officially "slower" than the warp scale in TNG and later. I assume that's because the "transwarp drive" designed into the Excelsior became the new standard. (Remember, the phrase "off the charts" just indicates the need for new charts.)

    Based on what we've seen of Vulcan in various TOS-related sources, I'd say that Spock was playing word games with Uhura - Vulcan has no moon, because it is a moon of that larger planet in the sky, visible during Spock's kohlinar ceremony. (This also makes it fit with astronomy, because there's a "super-Earth" orbiting just within the Goldilocks zone of 40 Eridani A, meaning that any habitable moon of that world would received some heat from 40 Eridani B and C, but not too much.)
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  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,450 Bug Hunter
    jonsills wrote: »
    Vulcanian, from Vulcan. You know, that planet with no moon? :wink:

    Vulcanian, Vulconis, I can never remember that one, just as well they retconned it.
    jonsills wrote: »
    Oh, and the warp factor thing was reworked, not retconned - the warp speeds in TOS are (while undefined) officially "slower" than the warp scale in TNG and later. I assume that's because the "transwarp drive" designed into the Excelsior became the new standard. (Remember, the phrase "off the charts" just indicates the need for new charts.)

    Is that ever mentioned or seen onscreen? I've also always assumed the 'transwarp' was just renamed the new standard warp but I don't think it was ever indicated canonically that there's any difference between the 23rd and 24th century warp scales.
    jonsills wrote: »
    Based on what we've seen of Vulcan in various TOS-related sources, I'd say that Spock was playing word games with Uhura - Vulcan has no moon, because it is a moon of that larger planet in the sky, visible during Spock's kohlinar ceremony. (This also makes it fit with astronomy, because there's a "super-Earth" orbiting just within the Goldilocks zone of 40 Eridani A, meaning that any habitable moon of that world would received some heat from 40 Eridani B and C, but not too much.)

    Retroactively he's playing word games or lying for attention or whatever, but until TMP he's telling the truth and it was then retconned.
    I also don't think the body seen in TMP is bigger. I'm reasonably sure it's Delta Vega and there's a 'supermoon' effect going on in TMP. Simply because we don't see the body in ENT or DSC as far as I'm aware and if we do, it's nowhere near the size it is in TMP.
    Also, as Andor was mentioned as the moon of Andoria (or the other way around), I'm sure it would have come up before if Vulcan was, in fact, a moon.​​
    22762792376_ac7c992b7c_o.png
    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
    JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

    #TASforSTO


    '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
    'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
    'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
    '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
    'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
    '...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek

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  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 10,354 Arc User
    In TOS, Delta Vega was somewhere toward the rim of the galaxy. There was an unmanned lithium-cracking station there, and later they added the corpse of a would-be god.
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