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  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,963 Arc User
    The launcher is misrepresenting this as an "unlock", I fear Cryptic may be going full EA now:

    YDT1Vts.png
    What do you do when something is inside a lockbox and you have a key?
    You "unlock" it!

    But of course, every time you open something - even if it's a bag, a door or a pack, you unlock something. So the langauge does not just work for lockboxes, but also for other forms of containers, like R&D Packs.
    swamarian wrote: »
    Unlock means "get permanent access to" to me. [/quote]
    But that is definitely not what the word "unlock" actually means. It implies gaining access to something, but if you unlock a case containing a beer, you don't have permanent access to beer. It just means you could do whatever you want do with that particularly beer, but if you drink it or throw it away, it is gone.


    I was in a TFO last night and saw the ship in action and knew I just had to have it to keep playing this game so I got it.

    Two things strike me as odd about the info in this thread;

    One) getting it on the exchange isn't as easy as simply buying packs or keys and selling them, there is always someone that's going to underbid you by a credit to get their stuff sold first. I think these people do this to drive the price down and then they scooped up all the low priced ones and sell them high. So you have to babysit your auctions only putting a few up at a time. I've left auctions up at the going rate when I posted them and they hadn't sold a day later because of these people.

    Two) Cryptic has a limit of $200 spent per 48-hour period, So I don't understand how these people are spending thousands of dollars already?

    I believe you can actually contact support when you hit the limit, and they will allow more.
    But whenever you get into the situation to "need" this, I strongly recommend restraint and careful introspection before you go ahead.

    Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
  • cryptkeeper0cryptkeeper0 Member Posts: 989 Arc User
    duasyn wrote: »
    Quit trying to make more controversy

    I can't speak for @postagepaid, but I'm not trying to do that at all. I saw a change in marketing strategy that legitimately scared me about the future direction of the game and I pointed it out. From what I can remember new R&D promos were always clearly indicated as such on the launcher, and when I see the word "unlock" I don't even think of the C-Store I think mission or event reward, certainly not promo box.

    I voiced my concern in this thread specifically because I figured that of the many threads currently going on this topic this one was probably the most likely to get attention from kael. If I was trying to make controversy or fan the flames I would have mentioned it in every thread I could find.

    Yes, with the current atmosphere around loot boxes, best to be 100% accurate with any advertisement involving them. Sadly, a few bad actor game companies and cringe-worthy lawyer soundbites will be blood in the water for the politicians. Especially if they can score some political points by coming to 'save the kids'. Personally, I dislike the practice of loot boxes and some companies are pushing their luck with being super obnoxious with them. Even the toy aisle of stores are filling with 'mystery boxes' from figures to Hot Wheels cars. If I had to bet, the governments are gonna step in to 'save the kids' and we may or may not be happy with the actions they take. The price of a game may go from $60 w/ a loot box, to $150 w/o one or all games might just add a subscription and still have a store. Who knows.

    This assumption that game development costs have gone up enough to justify a huge dollar hike, is actually false. Most of the money in game development goes to absurd administration costs and marketing, much of which is inefficient expenditures particularly in larger corporations that already have a name for themselves. That is the hardest part of game marketing is getting the initial impressions of your product when you don't have brand recognition, that is when you need to spend the most on marketing. But many of these companies who already have a brand over spend hoping to reach a untapped market that may or may not exist.

    Many companies could use the humbling, and reassessments because the way the industry is going it's headed to another gaming crash. Also all this white-knighting of the serious exploitation of gambling mechanics, the younger you are when you experience gambling the more likely it is to cause problem gambling later in life. Addiction is a serious issue, and any company who willfully exploits people with gambling problems for excess profits shows a lack of concern for ethics, has made a choose to act amorally. Without knowing perfect worlds investment policies, I could be wrong in the ratio but the majority of large gaming corporations/publishers the devs do not get the majority of the pie when it comes to profits.

    I would love to send more money to developers of this game because they do a good job with the smallish staff they have, but I also can not support amoral behavior. Here is to hoping the gaming industry evolves away from gambling.

  • lianthelialianthelia Member Posts: 7,825 Arc User
    I was in a TFO last night and saw the ship in action and knew I just had to have it to keep playing this game so I got it.

    Two things strike me as odd about the info in this thread;

    One) getting it on the exchange isn't as easy as simply buying packs or keys and selling them, there is always someone that's going to underbid you by a credit to get their stuff sold first. I think these people do this to drive the price down and then they scooped up all the low priced ones and sell them high. So you have to babysit your auctions only putting a few up at a time. I've left auctions up at the going rate when I posted them and they hadn't sold a day later because of these people.

    Two) Cryptic has a limit of $200 spent per 48-hour period, So I don't understand how these people are spending thousands of dollars already?

    Unfortunately this is common and it happens all over the place and people will strive to save as much as possible, even if it's 1 credit.
  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,918 Arc User
    valoreah wrote: »
    Comic Book Guy tactics, as I call it.

    Call it whatever you like, there is nothing wrong with what they are doing. If you spent a quarter of the time you do complaining and sulking on the forums for earning the ship, you could have had it twice over already.

    Agreed, enough already.
    Insert witty signature line here.
  • asdfjkadfjkasfasdfjkadfjkasf Member Posts: 345 Media Corps
    I'm just happy I got my T6 Miranda, there is no other ship I want now!
  • c0mbatkarlzc0mbatkarlz Member Posts: 3 Arc User
    I'd been sitting on a horde of Zen that I'd accumulated over the years, approx 13k, and decided to take a shot at getting the Disco Connie. I rarely ever use loot boxes to try to get ships, perhaps one time to get the Kelvin Connie. I pulled it off then but not now. Poof went my Zen, and now I have a serious case of buyers remorse. I think I'll just refer to this game as Star Trek Casino from now on.
  • mattachinemattachine Member Posts: 504 Arc User
    I was finally excited about something when I saw the Arc promo, that we would be able to unlock this ship. Only to get disappointed yet again by the endless avalanche of raffle/gaming needed instead of it being a Event reward which the promotion could be interpreted as.
  • angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 11,001 Arc User
    reyan01 wrote: »
    In which case you should've purchased the Promo boxes, sold those on the exchange, and simply purchased the ship off the exchange with the EC you generated. Guaranteed to get the ship that way.

    I'm sure people love to have the same mantra parroted at them over and over and over again pig-2.gif​​
    lFC4bt2.gif
    ^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
    "No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
    "A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
    "That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
  • voodoopokeyvoodoopokey Member Posts: 244 Arc User
    I'd been sitting on a horde of Zen that I'd accumulated over the years, approx 13k, and decided to take a shot at getting the Disco Connie. I rarely ever use loot boxes to try to get ships, perhaps one time to get the Kelvin Connie. I pulled it off then but not now. Poof went my Zen, and now I have a serious case of buyers remorse. I think I'll just refer to this game as Star Trek Casino from now on.

    Most of the people I know who buy the full $200 worth of ZEN (something like 28,000) and dump it all into R&D boxes end up with one... and sometimes none... so I'm not surprised. The drop rate is abysmally small. You do eventually learn to weigh those chances against the amount of EC you can make by selling keys or R&D boxes instead... and unless you're a gambler who really enjoys the risks, the latter is usually the way to go.

    Also, unless $200 is pocket change for you, it's probably best to just avoid these promos and all the lockboxes. Don't convince yourself you "need" video game spaceships and things run much smoother.
  • angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 11,001 Arc User
    reyan01 wrote: »
    valoreah wrote: »

    Some people need it repeated many times until it sinks in.

    Plus if they'd read said advice elsewhere they might not have actually made said 'mistake'

    I don't think someone blowing their life supply of Zen will ever try anything at STO ever again pig-2.gif Plus, maybe it's because it's basically all men around here, but sometimes you don't want to hear a "solution" (especially if it's just "why didn't you...") but just vent. Maybe just go with "Yeah, that sucks" instead of "You are stupid".​​
    lFC4bt2.gif
    ^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
    "No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
    "A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
    "That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
  • c0mbatkarlzc0mbatkarlz Member Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited June 2019
    reyan01 wrote: »
    I'd been sitting on a horde of Zen that I'd accumulated over the years, approx 13k, and decided to take a shot at getting the Disco Connie. I rarely ever use loot boxes to try to get ships, perhaps one time to get the Kelvin Connie. I pulled it off then but not now. Poof went my Zen, and now I have a serious case of buyers remorse. I think I'll just refer to this game as Star Trek Casino from now on.

    In which case you should've purchased the Promo boxes, sold those on the exchange, and simply purchased the ship off the exchange with the EC you generated. Guaranteed to get the ship that way.

    Thanks for the tip, I'll look into that. What are Promo boxes?
  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,918 Arc User
    reyan01 wrote: »
    I'd been sitting on a horde of Zen that I'd accumulated over the years, approx 13k, and decided to take a shot at getting the Disco Connie. I rarely ever use loot boxes to try to get ships, perhaps one time to get the Kelvin Connie. I pulled it off then but not now. Poof went my Zen, and now I have a serious case of buyers remorse. I think I'll just refer to this game as Star Trek Casino from now on.

    In which case you should've purchased the Promo boxes, sold those on the exchange, and simply purchased the ship off the exchange with the EC you generated. Guaranteed to get the ship that way.

    Thanks for the tip, I'll look into that. What are Promo boxes?

    Yeah, what reyan said..

    Instead of opening those boxes, you could have sold them on the exchange for EC. Right now they sell for about 15M each. The ship is selling for about 1.35 Billion.

    13k Zen would have got you 16 4 packs or 64 Boxes.

    At 15M each, you would have made 960 Million Credits that you could have just put toward buying the ship outright. If you have been playing long enough to accumulate 13k Zen in stipend, then I would have to assume you at least had a couple hundred million just from basic game play over that time.. so you probably would have been really close just with that. At most you might have had to put in a few dollars to make up the short fall, but it would have guaranteed you a ship with no gambling.
    Insert witty signature line here.
  • thlaylierahthlaylierah Member Posts: 2,984 Arc User
    edited June 2019
    I was in a TFO last night and saw the ship in action and knew I just had to have it to keep playing this game so I got it.

    Two things strike me as odd about the info in this thread;

    One) getting it on the exchange isn't as easy as simply buying packs or keys and selling them, there is always someone that's going to underbid you by a credit to get their stuff sold first. I think these people do this to drive the price down and then they scooped up all the low priced ones and sell them high. So you have to babysit your auctions only putting a few up at a time. I've left auctions up at the going rate when I posted them and they hadn't sold a day later because of these people.

    Two) Cryptic has a limit of $200 spent per 48-hour period, So I don't understand how these people are spending thousands of dollars already?

    I believe you can actually contact support when you hit the limit, and they will allow more.
    But whenever you get into the situation to "need" this, I strongly recommend restraint and careful introspection before you go ahead.

    [/quote]

    Thank You for your concern, I only wanted another $10 to buy the D7 Miracle Worker Equipment. I waited out the 48 hours, but for grins I contacted support and got an increase for next time.
  • jhymesbajhymesba Member Posts: 28 Arc User
    dkeith2011 wrote: »
    Abusive, exploitative marketing aside, anyone else think the fighter swarm mechanic should be available on other carriers in the game?

    Would be nice to see the actual dedicated heavy carriers launch massive clouds of fighters for a change.

    I wonder how big the individual fighters actually are. They didn't seem that big, but there was nothing to scale them with. Maybe they are no bigger than a photon torpedo, which would justify 6 of them being one 'fighter'.

    The fighter mechanic isn't really that impressive. Six form a squadron, but the game actually treats them as one fighter with six forward mounted beam arrays and three aft-mounted 360 degree beam arrays. So, when you see six swarming a target, that's really one well-armed fighter actually attacking the target. If you have a bay with six of them, it may look like 36 fighters swarming, but ... it's no different mechanically than six peregrine fighters attacking one target.

    One thing that I'd expect is that as the squadron takes damage, it loses beams (and visually, loses fighters). At 5/6, lose a fore beam. 4/6, loose a fore and aft beam. 3/6, lose another forward beam. 2/6, lose a fore and aft beam. 1/6, lose a fore beam, and then the squadron is destroyed when reduced to 0 HP. I'd remove the shields on them, but amp their evasion way up, representing how hard they are to hit. That'll help with some of the overpoweredness of the fighter spam.
  • generalclickgeneralclick Member Posts: 8 Arc User
    So i've opened roughly 50 boxes now and have received nothing in return. Is it possible that an account could just not be interacting with the promo system properly? A bug thats just giving you regular R&D packs instead of a chance at the ships? Kinda feels like that.
  • smokebaileysmokebailey Member Posts: 4,664 Arc User
    So i've opened roughly 50 boxes now and have received nothing in return. Is it possible that an account could just not be interacting with the promo system properly? A bug thats just giving you regular R&D packs instead of a chance at the ships? Kinda feels like that.

    No, just that RNG SUCKS tribbe butt.
    dvZq2Aj.jpg
  • voodoopokeyvoodoopokey Member Posts: 244 Arc User
    So i've opened roughly 50 boxes now and have received nothing in return. Is it possible that an account could just not be interacting with the promo system properly? A bug thats just giving you regular R&D packs instead of a chance at the ships? Kinda feels like that.

    You're falling victim to the Gambler's Fallacy is all.

    Lets assume for a minute that the drop rate on promo ships is 0.5% as many people speculate. Opening 50 boxes would give you a cumulative 22.2% of obtaining a promo ship... or more to the point, a 77.8% chance of NOT getting one.
  • legendarylycan#5411 legendarylycan Member Posts: 37,280 Arc User
    it's 1% - 0.5 is regular lockbox odds​​
    Like special weapons from other Star Trek games? Wondering if they can be replicated in STO even a little bit? Check this out: https://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1262277/a-mostly-comprehensive-guide-to-star-trek-videogame-special-weapons-and-their-sto-equivalents

    #LegalizeAwoo

    A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
    An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
    A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
    A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"


    "It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
    "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
    Passion and Serenity are one.
    I gain power by understanding both.
    In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
    I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
    The Force is united within me.
  • saurializardsaurializard Member Posts: 4,388 Arc User
    So i've opened roughly 50 boxes now and have received nothing in return. Is it possible that an account could just not be interacting with the promo system properly? A bug thats just giving you regular R&D packs instead of a chance at the ships? Kinda feels like that.

    You're falling victim to the Gambler's Fallacy is all.

    Lets assume for a minute that the drop rate on promo ships is 0.5% as many people speculate. Opening 50 boxes would give you a cumulative 22.2% of obtaining a promo ship... or more to the point, a 77.8% chance of NOT getting one.
    You do realize that what you're describing IS the Gambler's Fallacy?
    Opening 5, 50 or 2,000 boxes gives the exact same chance at any time, which is 0.5%-1%-whatever it really is.
    #TASforSTO
    Iconian_Trio_sign.jpg?raw=1
  • angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 11,001 Arc User
    This is right. The chance for each box is always the same no matter how many you open. The gambler's fallacy says that the more boxes you open, the better your chances get which is not true. The observation of cumulative probability does in fact nothing to improve your chances, but it suggests that if you just buy more boxes the chance of not winning decreases - which mathematically is true, but that does not mean your odds improve. It's just a justification to feed the addiction in the context of gambling.
    lFC4bt2.gif
    ^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
    "No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
    "A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
    "That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
  • awlaforgeawlaforge Member Posts: 235 Arc User
    edited June 2019
    Seeing quotes about "the market indicates the ship would best sell in a 'loot box'" to me rings false. As many people (myself included) who have said they would buy the ship from the zen store in a heartbeat tells me it is not the ship that is not/would not sell, Cryptic is pushing the R&D material boxes. Those are what do not sell from what I can see. Why else would you put an obviously high demand object - the ship with an extremely low drop rate on something that appears to have a low sell rate? After all, what do you have after this R&D promotion? A lot of people with tons of R&D materials, a quashed demand for the R&D boxes and a low number of the promoted "surprise mechanic" - credit to EA for this stupid description - items rewarded? Same as when these infinity boxes are attached to duty officer bundles. Cryptic is pushing duty officer packs at that time. Thing is, because of the random nature of the duty officer pack, they are less likely to be inventory bloat - in my opinion.
  • salazarrazesalazarraze Member Posts: 3,794 Arc User
    awlaforge wrote: »
    Seeing quotes about "the market indicates the ship would best sell in a 'loot box'" to me rings false. As many people (myself included) who have said they would buy the ship from the zen store in a heartbeat tells me it is not the ship that is not/would not sell.
    Nobody is saying it wouldn't sell in the c-store. In fact, almost EVERYONE would buy it. What we're saying is that Cryptic is making way more money by selling it as a promo pack prize. And that's not even a debate, because if they thought it would make more money as a c-store purchase, you know that it would be for sale in the c-store instead.
    When you see "TRIBBLE" in my posts, it's because I manually typed "TRIBBLE" and censored myself.
  • voodoopokeyvoodoopokey Member Posts: 244 Arc User
    You do realize that what you're describing IS the Gambler's Fallacy?
    Opening 5, 50 or 2,000 boxes gives the exact same chance at any time, which is 0.5%-1%-whatever it really is.

    No, you're mistaking per-box probability with total cumulative probability, the latter being what I described. The gambler's fallacy would be to imagine that because you've opened 50, you're "due" a success, or that the probability will improve over time.

    The cumulative probability of success goes up with repetition, but it doesn't change the per-event probability. If you roll one dice you have a 1 in 6 chance of getting a 6.... if you roll 10 dice you don't have a 1 in 6 chance of getting at least one 6, you have a significantly higher chance, but the per-dice probability is still 1 in 6.
  • dkeith2011dkeith2011 Member Posts: 595 Arc User
    jhymesba wrote: »
    dkeith2011 wrote: »
    Abusive, exploitative marketing aside, anyone else think the fighter swarm mechanic should be available on other carriers in the game?

    Would be nice to see the actual dedicated heavy carriers launch massive clouds of fighters for a change.

    I wonder how big the individual fighters actually are. They didn't seem that big, but there was nothing to scale them with. Maybe they are no bigger than a photon torpedo, which would justify 6 of them being one 'fighter'.

    The fighter mechanic isn't really that impressive. Six form a squadron, but the game actually treats them as one fighter with six forward mounted beam arrays and three aft-mounted 360 degree beam arrays. So, when you see six swarming a target, that's really one well-armed fighter actually attacking the target. If you have a bay with six of them, it may look like 36 fighters swarming, but ... it's no different mechanically than six peregrine fighters attacking one target.

    One thing that I'd expect is that as the squadron takes damage, it loses beams (and visually, loses fighters). At 5/6, lose a fore beam. 4/6, loose a fore and aft beam. 3/6, lose another forward beam. 2/6, lose a fore and aft beam. 1/6, lose a fore beam, and then the squadron is destroyed when reduced to 0 HP. I'd remove the shields on them, but amp their evasion way up, representing how hard they are to hit. That'll help with some of the overpoweredness of the fighter spam.

    Yep, I just think it looks cool to see a lot of fighters for a change.
  • thegrandnagus1thegrandnagus1 Member Posts: 5,165 Arc User
    awlaforge wrote: »
    Seeing quotes about "the market indicates the ship would best sell in a 'loot box'" to me rings false. As many people (myself included) who have said they would buy the ship from the zen store in a heartbeat tells me it is not the ship that is not/would not sell.
    Nobody is saying it wouldn't sell in the c-store. In fact, almost EVERYONE would buy it. What we're saying is that Cryptic is making way more money by selling it as a promo pack prize. And that's not even a debate, because if they thought it would make more money as a c-store purchase, you know that it would be for sale in the c-store instead.

    On that note:

    https://www.reddit.com/r/sto/comments/c5j2y6/on_tonights_p1_kael_elaborated_on_the_decision_to/

    The-Grand-Nagus
    Join Date: Sep 2008

    og9Zoh0.jpg
  • evilmark444evilmark444 Member Posts: 6,950 Arc User
    What do you do when something is inside a lockbox and you have a key?
    You "unlock" it!

    Typically in a video game "unlock" means you earned something via gameplay. In STO I completed the First Contact Day event and unlocked a Tommy Gun. In Resident Evil 2 Remake I completed the game and unlocked the classic RE2 outfits. In WoW I completed oppressive rep grinds and unlocked new races. In Jurassic World Evolution I did a little jump with my ranger jeep and unlocked the classic JP jeep skin. In Mortal Kombat X I unlocked different character skins by completing sections of the story mode (haven't played 11 yet so I can't use that as an example). And the few examples of paid unlocks that I know of are always account wide if applicable.

    I have never seen unlock used in reference to a lootb... I'm sorry, "surprise mechanic", and unless I missed it I've never seen Cryptic use that terminology in relation to their lockboxes and R&D promos either. Either they were deliberately trying to excite people with misleading language, or someone thought they were being cute with their terminology and didn't take even two seconds to think about the broader implications of it in the gaming community.
    Lifetime Subscriber since Beta
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This discussion has been closed.