Clicking on I agree does not mean much legal wise. Anything written in the agreements that is beyond the law, is not legal.
Besides, there is no option to partly agree, or disagree and still be able to play the game. So your forced to agree, or else you cannot play. That is a kind of putting people against the wall. Give them no real choice.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
“on a side note, you people DO know you are making a fuss over trinkets right?
most of the prizes from these event you are hording tokens for are not worth the effort. (and end up on the uncommon tier in the Phoenix box)”
Do you realise they were selling some of the tokens as little as 2 months ago for real cash. Then deleted them after people handed over real money. That is why some players are upset. At 1000zen its was hardly trinkets value.
I think you're missing the point of what the 10 pack of tokens is supposed to be.
People think the 10 token pack for 1000 zen is a means to collect extra tokens once per account without having to do as many runs on that particular character.
Cryptic's intent behind the 10 pack was to give players that may not have time to play the total event to have a way of completing the project while still doing a few runs when they have time. You can only get it once per event, so it prevents people from building up a stockpile without playing.
In my opinion, you should not buy the pack unless you know you're gonna be unable to complete the project.
We seem to be off topic. I am sorry for that. the tokens are gone, so we are debating whether it was right or wrong now.[/quote]
It was wrong. Cryptic went into every person's inventory without consent, and forcibly destroyed items. Some of those items, were purchased with real cash. We already had the choice to destroy them if we wanted to, when we wanted to. Some people did, some people did not. Each player had reasons for the choice they made. That was their choice. Cryptic decided to force that choice for us, and set a precedent in doing so. A bad precedent, because now, they have shown that they can, and will go into a person's inventory whenever they feel like it, and take from that person. That's theft. Plain and simple.
As said before, in the past, Cryptic offered the option as they were phasing something's usefulness out, that you, the player, can trade it in for something else. If you so chose to do so. The old kits that had their passives wiped, can be sold for increased EC. The old crafting materials could be exchanged for a batch of new crafting materials. Or that player can keep the items for sentimental value. I still have the old Operative Kit, and Breach Engineer kits in my bank. Because I wanted to keep them. This kept trust with the community, because it put the power into the hands of the player. Now, I don't have that trust anymore. Now, I have to wonder whether or when items that I hold onto or use are next on the chopping block. Or boxes of outfits, T5 ships, T5-U ships.
Now that you're talking about Bundles, the First Day Contact Bundle had FOUR Zefram Cochran Memorial Statue Holograms. Four. That's a total completion of the Event from 0. You don't/didn't need to participate at all.
Of course this is the one Event that had the highest percentage of non-participators. People would just stand at their table and when the time came let the rocket blow up right off the pad. And they would get all the rewards regardless.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Actually YOU are the one who is typing in your belief...which is wrong. A TOS does NOT override local laws. EVER. It can add things in addition to local laws...but if there is a local law that says something in the TOS is illegal there...guess what, that part of the TOS is not applicable in that area. For instance, many TOS has an arbitration clause where all disputes MUST be settled by arbitration. This is because arbitration favors companies over individuals and large companies over small ones. I had to go through an arbitration where the delivery company flat out LOST two of my deliveries worth over $1000 and their reply was it was delivered...without showing ANY proof it was done so. No signature of who they "delivered" it to. No address confirmation. Arbitration sided with them. This is why in many places, forced arbitration is illegal. So if a TOS had that clause, it would not apply if you live in an area where you can't do that. In fact if a company tried to force the issue, it can lead to not just segments of the TOS but the ENTIRE TOS getting tossed out in litigation. So them deleting items that people paid money for can indeed lead to problems for them if the player is in an area with strong consumer protection...like say the EU.
I never said it overrides local laws.
I said if he knows the TOS and still hit 'I accept', he accept the rules they set.
Including their ability to change aspects of the game. They provided a service under set terms and he agreed to those terms.
If they choose to end a service, they can at anytime under those terms.
They fulfilled their part by delivering the service (they provided the tokens and a means to spend it)
He is claiming they did not provide the service.
And I'm sorry you lost your deliveries. That kind of TRIBBLE sucks hard. Someone probably stole it off your porch. (a lot of that TRIBBLE was happening here)
The fact that I know now that cryptic will at uncertain points delete items I spend real cash on, will lead to people being more reluctant and more careful to spend money on this game, it least I will.
It was wrong. Cryptic went into every person's inventory without consent, and forcibly destroyed items. Some of those items, were purchased with real cash. We already had the choice to destroy them if we wanted to, when we wanted to. Some people did, some people did not. Each player had reasons for the choice they made. That was their choice. Cryptic decided to force that choice for us, and set a precedent in doing so. A bad precedent, because now, they have shown that they can, and will go into a person's inventory whenever they feel like it, and take from that person. That's theft. Plain and simple.
As said before, in the past, Cryptic offered the option as they were phasing something's usefulness out, that you, the player, can trade it in for something else. If you so chose to do so. The old kits that had their passives wiped, can be sold for increased EC. The old crafting materials could be exchanged for a batch of new crafting materials. Or that player can keep the items for sentimental value. I still have the old Operative Kit, and Breach Engineer kits in my bank. Because I wanted to keep them. This kept trust with the community, because it put the power into the hands of the player. Now, I don't have that trust anymore. Now, I have to wonder whether or when items that I hold onto or use are next on the chopping block. Or boxes of outfits, T5 ships, T5-U ships.
Wrong? yea, maybe. we could destroy the tokens if we wanted to ourselves. Shoot, I still have Winter tokens from 2016. But I really don't care. Its trash anyways
Theft? no. because as TOS states, they own those tokens, not you
Precedent? no. they have done it before. They change items too. They remove items you earn (sure would be great if you could save those command credits)
Could they have offered a trade-in? Yea, it would have been nice. But we are definitely not entitled to it because we chose not to spend the tokens when we had the chance.
Honestly, you guys are overreacting to something that isn't worth it. I lost a lot of tokens too. As long as there will be another way to obtain the items, who cares? I'm playing the game anyways, so I will get more tokens to get more trinkets I will probably never use in any of my builds.
5.1 PWE is the owner of the Website, the Games, the Software and the Service, which are protected by US and international law including copyright laws. All rights and title in and to the Website, the Game, the Software and the Service, all features and content thereof (including without limitation any user accounts, titles, computer code, files, game software, client and server software, tools, patches, updates, themes, objects, characters, character names, stories, storylines, objects, content, text, dialogue, catch phrases, themes, locations, concepts, artwork, designs, graphics, pictures, video, animation, sounds, music, musical, compositions, sound recordings, audio-visual effects, information, data, documentation, “applets”, chat transcripts, character profile information, game play, recordings, in game items, in game activities, coin and Zen) and the selection and arrangement thereof (collectively the “Proprietary Materials”) are the proprietary property of PWE or its licensors and are protected by U.S. and international copyright and other proprietary rights laws.
That has very little legal value, and if you feel the need to quote it in this thread, that's because you are well aware that it has very little legal value.
“Theft? no. because as TOS states, they own those tokens, not you”
Doesn’t matter a good example. Valve/Steam said in the TOS back in 2014 Consumers are not entitled to refund to any game for any circumstance. Valve are not under obligation to repair, replace, refund e.c.t. But the local law said “everybody who buys a product or a service has a right to a refund if the product doesn't work. They have a right to a refund, or a repair.” So despite what the TOS said Valve/Steam are under obligation to repair, replace, refund and Vale/Steam did despite it being against the TOS.
The same goes for the STO TOS it means very little. I never agreed to the TOS as it was ruled invalid by the courts. You see I brought a boxed version of the game and the local law says any TOS hidden inside a box inside a shrink warp that you cannot view at the time of purchase is not valid.
Doesn’t matter a good example. Valve/Steam said in the TOS back in 2014 Consumers are not entitled to refund to any game for any circumstance. Valve are not under obligation to repair, replace, refund e.c.t. But the local law said “everybody who buys a product or a service has a right to a refund if the product doesn't work. They have a right to a refund, or a repair.” So despite what the TOS said Valve/Steam are under obligation to repair, replace, refund and Vale/Steam did despite it being against the TOS.
The same goes for the STO TOS it means very little. I never agreed to the TOS as it was ruled invalid by the courts. You see I brought a boxed version of the game and the local law says any TOS hidden inside a box inside a shrink warp that you cannot view at the time of purchase is not valid.
The product worked. It just became obsolete.
The tokens you bought from the C-store were for early completion or allowing people to complete the event projects if they were otherwise unable to. They worked as intended.
why do you guys keep mentioning to 'legal' value?
Do you plan on suing them because of some worthless tokens?
This is sounding less like people wanting assurance that they won't lose items in the future, and more like children pouting because they didn't get what they want.
It was wrong. Cryptic went into every person's inventory without consent, and forcibly destroyed items. Some of those items, were purchased with real cash. We already had the choice to destroy them if we wanted to, when we wanted to. Some people did, some people did not. Each player had reasons for the choice they made. That was their choice. Cryptic decided to force that choice for us, and set a precedent in doing so. A bad precedent, because now, they have shown that they can, and will go into a person's inventory whenever they feel like it, and take from that person. That's theft. Plain and simple.
As said before, in the past, Cryptic offered the option as they were phasing something's usefulness out, that you, the player, can trade it in for something else. If you so chose to do so. The old kits that had their passives wiped, can be sold for increased EC. The old crafting materials could be exchanged for a batch of new crafting materials. Or that player can keep the items for sentimental value. I still have the old Operative Kit, and Breach Engineer kits in my bank. Because I wanted to keep them. This kept trust with the community, because it put the power into the hands of the player. Now, I don't have that trust anymore. Now, I have to wonder whether or when items that I hold onto or use are next on the chopping block. Or boxes of outfits, T5 ships, T5-U ships.
Theft? no. because as TOS states, they own those tokens, not you
Theft? YES because if you buy in-game items with real cash you own them. The virtual-item you bought is yours. The coding behind it is not.
That means Cryptic owns the coding which you may not use for reselling or using in own game development etc. But the VIRTUAL item you purchased and its value definitely is yours. And that it has value is a fact because some people bought these items with real cash from the store.
If the advertised usage/functionality of the virtual item is changed (after the moment you spend cash on it and it is in your disadvantage) or even worse if the item is removed from your inventory, compensation should be in place or refund. Because you paid for its existing functionality and it was never fully clear upfront that if you bought these items they would be removed without consent.
PS: I am not living in the USA, US laws on these things are not the law in my country.
Doesn’t matter a good example. Valve/Steam said in the TOS back in 2014 Consumers are not entitled to refund to any game for any circumstance. Valve are not under obligation to repair, replace, refund e.c.t. But the local law said “everybody who buys a product or a service has a right to a refund if the product doesn't work. They have a right to a refund, or a repair.” So despite what the TOS said Valve/Steam are under obligation to repair, replace, refund and Vale/Steam did despite it being against the TOS.
The same goes for the STO TOS it means very little. I never agreed to the TOS as it was ruled invalid by the courts. You see I brought a boxed version of the game and the local law says any TOS hidden inside a box inside a shrink warp that you cannot view at the time of purchase is not valid.
The product worked. It just became obsolete.
The tokens you bought from the C-store were for early completion or allowing people to complete the event projects if they were otherwise unable to. They worked as intended.
why do you guys keep mentioning to 'legal' value?
Do you plan on suing them because of some worthless tokens?
This is sounding less like people wanting assurance that they won't lose items in the future, and more like children pouting because they didn't get what they want.
It does not matter or how big the loss is. It simply should not happen this way. They should not delete items without consent or compensation.
Maybe they did not cross your line YET. But I am sure if more and more of your items (virtual or not) get removed at some point , you will also say "hold on, they cannot just do that". The fact that you consider this now minor, and your line is not yet crossed, does not automatically make things right.
Theft? YES because if you buy in-game items with real cash you own them. The virtual-item you bought is yours. The coding behind it is not.
That means Cryptic owns the coding which you may not use for reselling or using in own game development etc. But the VIRTUAL item you purchased and its value definitely is yours. And that it has value is a fact because some people bought these items with real cash from the store.
If the advertised usage/functionality of the virtual item is changed (after the moment you spend cash on it and it is in your disadvantage) or even worse if the item is removed from your inventory, compensation should be in place or refund. Because you paid for its existing functionality and it was never fully clear upfront that if you bought these items they would be removed without consent.
PS: I am not living in the USA, US laws on these things are not the law in my country.
Again.
The function of said virtual item you purchased did not change. Their purpose was to finish event projects early or finish event projects that you have already started. (They were even called 'Buy-out Bundles')
You said it yourself. It was a service. If you chose not to use the service the way (and WHEN) it was intended, it was on you.
The service was purchased.
The service was delivered.
You chose not to use the service.
The service expired. The duration of the event was stated.
The only argument you can make, is that they removed the useless tokens from your inventory.
Hence why I said, you guys are arguing over useless tokens. Its not worth it.
There is no argument, there are only Contrarians who do not see the side of the Players involved. Others have a legitimate problem in the manner that this was handled. PERIOD. Forget the TOS, irrelevant here.
If this was the 'right' thing to do and the 'right' manner to achieve some, as yet unknown goal, they would not have waited until ONE week before to announce it and then 'Charge of the Light Brigade' forward to do it. They did not listen to Jiminy Cricket on this one.
They couldn't even get their solution to work properly when implemented, they had to fix it, and will attempt to autocomplete the remaining projects this week. They also made the Daily Bonus Project available that accepts the Crystal Shard as input in addition to the newer version that accepts TFO Commendations instead.
Their Blogs speak of this change as related to the 14-day Featured Events of yesteryear, yet the 4-day First Contact Day Event 'Tokens' was included as well. An Event that they sold a Bundle with enough 'Tokens' to actually slot and complete the Event without any participation TWO months ago.
Originally from their first announcement, the Weekend type Events were to be addressed as well. The day after that, they stated that they were not to be included and would be addressed later in the Summer. Of course it had to be, one of the purposes of these Weekend Event 'Tokens' was to store them for future Weekend Events. They were not like all other Event 'Tokens' in that they were Account and not Character Bound and you had other non-Event prize things to spend them on.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
You use money to buy Zen. Zen has no monetary value. The Zen worked as intended. What you actually bought did what it was supposed to do.
The way you folks are carrying on, I can't wait to see how y'all flip out when the game actually shuts down and they end up taking away EVERYTHING that's "yours".
Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator and Resident She-Wolf
Community Moderators are Unpaid Volunteers and NOT Employees of Gearbox/Cryptic
Views and Opinions May Not Reflect the Views and Opinions of Gearbox/Cryptic
Theft? YES because if you buy in-game items with real cash you own them. The virtual-item you bought is yours. The coding behind it is not.
That means Cryptic owns the coding which you may not use for reselling or using in own game development etc. But the VIRTUAL item you purchased and its value definitely is yours. And that it has value is a fact because some people bought these items with real cash from the store.
If the advertised usage/functionality of the virtual item is changed (after the moment you spend cash on it and it is in your disadvantage) or even worse if the item is removed from your inventory, compensation should be in place or refund. Because you paid for its existing functionality and it was never fully clear upfront that if you bought these items they would be removed without consent.
PS: I am not living in the USA, US laws on these things are not the law in my country.
Again.
The function of said virtual item you purchased did not change. Their purpose was to finish event projects early or finish event projects that you have already started. (They were even called 'Buy-out Bundles')
You said it yourself. It was a service. If you chose not to use the service the way (and WHEN) it was intended, it was on you.
The service was purchased.
The service was delivered.
You chose not to use the service.
The service expired. The duration of the event was stated.
The only argument you can make, is that they removed the useless tokens from your inventory.
Hence why I said, you guys are arguing over useless tokens. Its not worth it.
Again
I agree with most points except you leave out one crucial point.
The fact that these tokens were not just usable during the first time the event occurred. Because the event itself was reoccurring. So tokens could be always used when the event reoccurred.
It was not advertised that the tokens could only be used the first time the event occurred. Because the event is reoccurring. Hence people bought these tokens for later use. Because the event kept returning.
When you could buy these tokens with real cash, there was not clearly said, we will delete these tokens from your inventory. After the event. Because that was not the plan when they sold these tokens.
Now much later Cryptic decided to change things. That is fine, but then they should compensate or refund the people who had these tokens in their inventory which were deleted.
You use money to buy Zen. Zen has no monetary value. The Zen worked as intended. What you actually bought did what it was supposed to do.
The way you folks are carrying on, I can't wait to see how y'all flip out when the game actually shuts down and they end up taking away EVERYTHING that's "yours".
Seems to me you are promoting people should not spend money on this game, because you agree that it is just that items can be deleted by Cryptic, without compensation at any time.
Do not understand why it is difficult for you to side with or at least have empathy for paying customers from whom items were deleted without any compensation.
Your phrase "I can't wait to see how y'all flip out" suggests, you enjoy it when other people are disappointed. And are pleased when you can disappoint them even more by showing no empathy. What is the value of making statements as such, which do not contribute to the topic, and basically is hurtful to some people?
The fact that these tokens were not just usable during the first time the event occurred. Because the event itself was reoccurring. So tokens could be always used when the event reoccurred.
It was not advertised that the tokens could only be used the first time the event occurred. Because the event is reoccurring. Hence people bought these tokens for later use. Because the event kept returning.
When you could buy these tokens with real cash, there was not clearly said, we will delete these tokens from your inventory. After the event. Because that was not the plan when they sold these tokens.
Now much later Cryptic decided to change things. That is fine, but then they should compensate or refund the people who had these tokens in their inventory which were deleted.
There was never any guarantee the the event would be returning in the same form.
Players took a risk by saving the tokens in hopes that they would be able to use them next year.
The were advertised as Buy-out Tokens. The fact that you could hold on to them was a happy side effect.
But you still chose not to spend them when you had the chance during the limited event.
If you are handing out refunds how would to tell if they had tokens from the Zen pack or ones they held on to from last year?
Refunds would not work.
Arguing for compensation for obsolete items is pointless.
They had value during the event. We didn't use them while we could.
The only thing they did wrong was remove the items. Even though they were useless.
The fact that these tokens were not just usable during the first time the event occurred. Because the event itself was reoccurring. So tokens could be always used when the event reoccurred.
It was not advertised that the tokens could only be used the first time the event occurred. Because the event is reoccurring. Hence people bought these tokens for later use. Because the event kept returning.
When you could buy these tokens with real cash, there was not clearly said, we will delete these tokens from your inventory. After the event. Because that was not the plan when they sold these tokens.
Now much later Cryptic decided to change things. That is fine, but then they should compensate or refund the people who had these tokens in their inventory which were deleted.
There was never any guarantee the the event would be returning in the same form.
Players took a risk by saving the tokens in hopes that they would be able to use them next year.
The were advertised as Buy-out Tokens. The fact that you could hold on to them was a happy side effect.
But you still chose not to spend them when you had the chance during the limited event.
If you are handing out refunds how would to tell if they had tokens from the Zen pack or ones they held on to from last year?
Refunds would not work.
Arguing for compensation for obsolete items is pointless.
They had value during the event. We didn't use them while we could.
The only thing they did wrong was remove the items. Even though they were useless.
So it is risky to spend money on STO. Items you buy today can be deleted without compensation the next day or at any unpredictable moment. And you are complete fine with that? Well I am not. There we differ.
Your phrase "I can't wait to see how y'all flip out" suggests, you enjoy it when other people are disappointed. And are pleased when you can disappoint them even more by showing no empathy. What is the value of making statements as such, which do not contribute to the topic, and basically is hurtful to some people?
hurtful? I spent Zen too. I had a lot of tokens. I tried to horde them so I could always get the reward the first day of the event
But I don't find that comment hurtful in the least bit.
He is pointing out that some people are overreacting when they really haven't lost anything of great value.
And if this makes people react like this, imagine how they will react when they actually lose something of real value like say...everything?
If anything, I find his comment funny.
Cause I KNOW I will freak out!
I did when Wildstar shutdown
I did when City of Heroes shutdown
I did when Rumblefighter shutdown (the OGplanet version)
But I know its part of online gaming. It won't last forever (unless its UO...I think it will last forever)
The fact that these tokens were not just usable during the first time the event occurred. Because the event itself was reoccurring. So tokens could be always used when the event reoccurred.
It was not advertised that the tokens could only be used the first time the event occurred. Because the event is reoccurring. Hence people bought these tokens for later use. Because the event kept returning.
When you could buy these tokens with real cash, there was not clearly said, we will delete these tokens from your inventory. After the event. Because that was not the plan when they sold these tokens.
Now much later Cryptic decided to change things. That is fine, but then they should compensate or refund the people who had these tokens in their inventory which were deleted.
There was never any guarantee the the event would be returning in the same form.
Players took a risk by saving the tokens in hopes that they would be able to use them next year.
The were advertised as Buy-out Tokens. The fact that you could hold on to them was a happy side effect.
But you still chose not to spend them when you had the chance during the limited event.
If you are handing out refunds how would to tell if they had tokens from the Zen pack or ones they held on to from last year?
Refunds would not work.
Arguing for compensation for obsolete items is pointless.
They had value during the event. We didn't use them while we could.
The only thing they did wrong was remove the items. Even though they were useless.
The wrong was not providing the compensation method (event currency turn-in) despite such a system already being in place, and electing instead to delete our currency which, as others have pointed out, some or many players have actually paid real cash for, be it their own zen purchases, or the use of other in game resources to trade zen purchased by other players in exchange for playing the game - in and of itself translates to time invested into the game which helps the game overall by having players to interact and play with.
Such currency was not advertised with a date stamp, as with the Risian event currency for example which was changed to being labelled directly with a year stamp, clearly indicating it would be valid for that year's event only. The ability to slot in the event reputation tab older events to finish them next time such currency can be obtained implied this currency has value beyond the event itself, alongside the currency trade-in option which was open for the duration of the event after having it finished, if only for dilithium and reputation marks of choice.
Implying 'appropriate' use of such currency is irrelevant as that is a subjective value statement. The facts that stand are such currency represents gaming time which benefits a game company (an active game facilitates its enjoyment and potential purchases), and real life cash (zen, your own or someone else's). Such currency has two clear uses, for either helping to finish previous slotted projects the next time the event runs, or trading it in for dilithium and choice of reputation marks without playing the events.
Worse than everything is the precedent this entire ordeal sets for all existing and future players, and really for any online gaming. A lot of talk already exists on the news of this very subject. It is questionable to opt for deletion from every player's banks over simply toggling on the reputation marks turn-in to preserve such currency's minimum inherent value, and introducing some new event currency for future events.
So it is risky to spend money on STO. Items you buy today can be deleted without compensation the next day or at any unpredictable moment. And you are complete fine with that? Well I am not. There we differ.
if you want to make it into a world-ending event, then fine
While I will agree they should not have deleted the items (even if they had no value), I do not agree you are entitled to compensation
It would have been a nice gesture, but by no means mandatory.
So if you choose to take that position, then its your choice.
Your phrase "I can't wait to see how y'all flip out" suggests, you enjoy it when other people are disappointed. And are pleased when you can disappoint them even more by showing no empathy. What is the value of making statements as such, which do not contribute to the topic, and basically is hurtful to some people?
hurtful? I spent Zen too. I had a lot of tokens. I tried to horde them so I could always get the reward the first day of the event
But I don't find that comment hurtful in the least bit.
He is pointing out that some people are overreacting when they really haven't lost anything of great value.
And if this makes people react like this, imagine how they will react when they actually lose something of real value like say...everything?
If anything, I find his comment funny.
Cause I KNOW I will freak out!
I did when Wildstar shutdown
I did when City of Heroes shutdown
I did when Rumblefighter shutdown (the OGplanet version)
But I know its part of online gaming. It won't last forever (unless its UO...I think it will last forever)
I wrote: "hurtful to SOME people".
You wrote: "If anything, I find his comment funny.". Indeed some people find comments that are hurtful to some others funny. But that does not justify it.
The fact that STO as a game will end at some point has nothing to do with deletion of items, without compensation, by cryptic during the lifetime of this game. If the game ends it ends for all.
Now people who slotted specific events got overcompensated, even if they did not put tokens in them. And people who's items got deleted from their inventory got nothing, got no compensation. Even worse for the people who spend real cash for those items. If Cryptic can delete items, they also could compensate people whose items got deleted.
Not compensating will cause less money spending into this game by some people. Because you never know when Cryptic will decide to delete things you have spend money on without comepnsation. If that was Cryptics aim, they were successful.
Oh, I empathize with the loss. Hell, I lost tokens myself. I'd have liked to have had the opportunity to trade them in for something, too. I just don't believe the basis of some of these arguments have merit.
Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator and Resident She-Wolf
Community Moderators are Unpaid Volunteers and NOT Employees of Gearbox/Cryptic
Views and Opinions May Not Reflect the Views and Opinions of Gearbox/Cryptic
Doesn’t matter a good example. Valve/Steam said in the TOS back in 2014 Consumers are not entitled to refund to any game for any circumstance. Valve are not under obligation to repair, replace, refund e.c.t. But the local law said “everybody who buys a product or a service has a right to a refund if the product doesn't work. They have a right to a refund, or a repair.” So despite what the TOS said Valve/Steam are under obligation to repair, replace, refund and Vale/Steam did despite it being against the TOS.
The same goes for the STO TOS it means very little. I never agreed to the TOS as it was ruled invalid by the courts. You see I brought a boxed version of the game and the local law says any TOS hidden inside a box inside a shrink warp that you cannot view at the time of purchase is not valid.
The product worked. It just became obsolete.
The tokens you bought from the C-store were for early completion or allowing people to complete the event projects if they were otherwise unable to. They worked as intended.
why do you guys keep mentioning to 'legal' value?
Do you plan on suing them because of some worthless tokens?
This is sounding less like people wanting assurance that they won't lose items in the future, and more like children pouting because they didn't get what they want.
We mention the legal value because the items have a money value behind them based on law. I don't plan on suing them but a number of people are perfectly within there rights to sue them over this. Its not about pouting because we didn't get what we want. Its about wanting to be treated decently as its a dangerous precedent to set. Its wrong to charge players money for an item and then as little as months later delete those items without warning. The items where not sold for 1 event only, where not sold with a notice saying you have to use them within 60days or they get deleted.
There is a big difference between deleting some tokens someone got free in a game event and charging someone money for said tokens and then deleting those tokens a few months later. Not only is it wrong but it also a good way to upset your player base.
The way you folks are carrying on, I can't wait to see how y'all flip out when the game actually shuts down and they end up taking away EVERYTHING that's "yours".
In a nut shell: "Class action seeking the reimbursement of any dime spent in the game plus interests and punitive damages." That will most likely mean your studio going bankrupt.
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Besides, there is no option to partly agree, or disagree and still be able to play the game. So your forced to agree, or else you cannot play. That is a kind of putting people against the wall. Give them no real choice.
We seem to be off topic. I am sorry for that.
the tokens are gone, so we are debating whether it was right or wrong now.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
I think you're missing the point of what the 10 pack of tokens is supposed to be.
People think the 10 token pack for 1000 zen is a means to collect extra tokens once per account without having to do as many runs on that particular character.
Cryptic's intent behind the 10 pack was to give players that may not have time to play the total event to have a way of completing the project while still doing a few runs when they have time. You can only get it once per event, so it prevents people from building up a stockpile without playing.
In my opinion, you should not buy the pack unless you know you're gonna be unable to complete the project.
Of course this is the one Event that had the highest percentage of non-participators. People would just stand at their table and when the time came let the rocket blow up right off the pad. And they would get all the rewards regardless.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
I never said it overrides local laws.
I said if he knows the TOS and still hit 'I accept', he accept the rules they set.
Including their ability to change aspects of the game. They provided a service under set terms and he agreed to those terms.
If they choose to end a service, they can at anytime under those terms.
They fulfilled their part by delivering the service (they provided the tokens and a means to spend it)
He is claiming they did not provide the service.
And I'm sorry you lost your deliveries. That kind of TRIBBLE sucks hard. Someone probably stole it off your porch. (a lot of that TRIBBLE was happening here)
Wrong? yea, maybe. we could destroy the tokens if we wanted to ourselves. Shoot, I still have Winter tokens from 2016. But I really don't care. Its trash anyways
Theft? no. because as TOS states, they own those tokens, not you
Precedent? no. they have done it before. They change items too. They remove items you earn (sure would be great if you could save those command credits)
Could they have offered a trade-in? Yea, it would have been nice. But we are definitely not entitled to it because we chose not to spend the tokens when we had the chance.
Honestly, you guys are overreacting to something that isn't worth it. I lost a lot of tokens too. As long as there will be another way to obtain the items, who cares? I'm playing the game anyways, so I will get more tokens to get more trinkets I will probably never use in any of my builds.
That has very little legal value, and if you feel the need to quote it in this thread, that's because you are well aware that it has very little legal value.
The same goes for the STO TOS it means very little. I never agreed to the TOS as it was ruled invalid by the courts. You see I brought a boxed version of the game and the local law says any TOS hidden inside a box inside a shrink warp that you cannot view at the time of purchase is not valid.
The product worked. It just became obsolete.
The tokens you bought from the C-store were for early completion or allowing people to complete the event projects if they were otherwise unable to. They worked as intended.
why do you guys keep mentioning to 'legal' value?
Do you plan on suing them because of some worthless tokens?
This is sounding less like people wanting assurance that they won't lose items in the future, and more like children pouting because they didn't get what they want.
Theft? YES because if you buy in-game items with real cash you own them. The virtual-item you bought is yours. The coding behind it is not.
That means Cryptic owns the coding which you may not use for reselling or using in own game development etc. But the VIRTUAL item you purchased and its value definitely is yours. And that it has value is a fact because some people bought these items with real cash from the store.
If the advertised usage/functionality of the virtual item is changed (after the moment you spend cash on it and it is in your disadvantage) or even worse if the item is removed from your inventory, compensation should be in place or refund. Because you paid for its existing functionality and it was never fully clear upfront that if you bought these items they would be removed without consent.
PS: I am not living in the USA, US laws on these things are not the law in my country.
It does not matter or how big the loss is. It simply should not happen this way. They should not delete items without consent or compensation.
Maybe they did not cross your line YET. But I am sure if more and more of your items (virtual or not) get removed at some point , you will also say "hold on, they cannot just do that". The fact that you consider this now minor, and your line is not yet crossed, does not automatically make things right.
Again.
The function of said virtual item you purchased did not change. Their purpose was to finish event projects early or finish event projects that you have already started. (They were even called 'Buy-out Bundles')
You said it yourself. It was a service. If you chose not to use the service the way (and WHEN) it was intended, it was on you.
The service was purchased.
The service was delivered.
You chose not to use the service.
The service expired. The duration of the event was stated.
The only argument you can make, is that they removed the useless tokens from your inventory.
Hence why I said, you guys are arguing over useless tokens. Its not worth it.
If this was the 'right' thing to do and the 'right' manner to achieve some, as yet unknown goal, they would not have waited until ONE week before to announce it and then 'Charge of the Light Brigade' forward to do it. They did not listen to Jiminy Cricket on this one.
They couldn't even get their solution to work properly when implemented, they had to fix it, and will attempt to autocomplete the remaining projects this week. They also made the Daily Bonus Project available that accepts the Crystal Shard as input in addition to the newer version that accepts TFO Commendations instead.
Their Blogs speak of this change as related to the 14-day Featured Events of yesteryear, yet the 4-day First Contact Day Event 'Tokens' was included as well. An Event that they sold a Bundle with enough 'Tokens' to actually slot and complete the Event without any participation TWO months ago.
Originally from their first announcement, the Weekend type Events were to be addressed as well. The day after that, they stated that they were not to be included and would be addressed later in the Summer. Of course it had to be, one of the purposes of these Weekend Event 'Tokens' was to store them for future Weekend Events. They were not like all other Event 'Tokens' in that they were Account and not Character Bound and you had other non-Event prize things to spend them on.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
The way you folks are carrying on, I can't wait to see how y'all flip out when the game actually shuts down and they end up taking away EVERYTHING that's "yours".
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Again
I agree with most points except you leave out one crucial point.
The fact that these tokens were not just usable during the first time the event occurred. Because the event itself was reoccurring. So tokens could be always used when the event reoccurred.
It was not advertised that the tokens could only be used the first time the event occurred. Because the event is reoccurring. Hence people bought these tokens for later use. Because the event kept returning.
When you could buy these tokens with real cash, there was not clearly said, we will delete these tokens from your inventory. After the event. Because that was not the plan when they sold these tokens.
Now much later Cryptic decided to change things. That is fine, but then they should compensate or refund the people who had these tokens in their inventory which were deleted.
Seems to me you are promoting people should not spend money on this game, because you agree that it is just that items can be deleted by Cryptic, without compensation at any time.
Do not understand why it is difficult for you to side with or at least have empathy for paying customers from whom items were deleted without any compensation.
Your phrase "I can't wait to see how y'all flip out" suggests, you enjoy it when other people are disappointed. And are pleased when you can disappoint them even more by showing no empathy. What is the value of making statements as such, which do not contribute to the topic, and basically is hurtful to some people?
There was never any guarantee the the event would be returning in the same form.
Players took a risk by saving the tokens in hopes that they would be able to use them next year.
The were advertised as Buy-out Tokens. The fact that you could hold on to them was a happy side effect.
But you still chose not to spend them when you had the chance during the limited event.
If you are handing out refunds how would to tell if they had tokens from the Zen pack or ones they held on to from last year?
Refunds would not work.
Arguing for compensation for obsolete items is pointless.
They had value during the event. We didn't use them while we could.
The only thing they did wrong was remove the items. Even though they were useless.
hurtful? I spent Zen too. I had a lot of tokens. I tried to horde them so I could always get the reward the first day of the event
But I don't find that comment hurtful in the least bit.
He is pointing out that some people are overreacting when they really haven't lost anything of great value.
And if this makes people react like this, imagine how they will react when they actually lose something of real value like say...everything?
If anything, I find his comment funny.
Cause I KNOW I will freak out!
I did when Wildstar shutdown
I did when City of Heroes shutdown
I did when Rumblefighter shutdown (the OGplanet version)
But I know its part of online gaming. It won't last forever (unless its UO...I think it will last forever)
Such currency was not advertised with a date stamp, as with the Risian event currency for example which was changed to being labelled directly with a year stamp, clearly indicating it would be valid for that year's event only. The ability to slot in the event reputation tab older events to finish them next time such currency can be obtained implied this currency has value beyond the event itself, alongside the currency trade-in option which was open for the duration of the event after having it finished, if only for dilithium and reputation marks of choice.
Implying 'appropriate' use of such currency is irrelevant as that is a subjective value statement. The facts that stand are such currency represents gaming time which benefits a game company (an active game facilitates its enjoyment and potential purchases), and real life cash (zen, your own or someone else's). Such currency has two clear uses, for either helping to finish previous slotted projects the next time the event runs, or trading it in for dilithium and choice of reputation marks without playing the events.
Worse than everything is the precedent this entire ordeal sets for all existing and future players, and really for any online gaming. A lot of talk already exists on the news of this very subject. It is questionable to opt for deletion from every player's banks over simply toggling on the reputation marks turn-in to preserve such currency's minimum inherent value, and introducing some new event currency for future events.
if you want to make it into a world-ending event, then fine
While I will agree they should not have deleted the items (even if they had no value), I do not agree you are entitled to compensation
It would have been a nice gesture, but by no means mandatory.
So if you choose to take that position, then its your choice.
I wrote: "hurtful to SOME people".
You wrote: "If anything, I find his comment funny.". Indeed some people find comments that are hurtful to some others funny. But that does not justify it.
The fact that STO as a game will end at some point has nothing to do with deletion of items, without compensation, by cryptic during the lifetime of this game. If the game ends it ends for all.
Now people who slotted specific events got overcompensated, even if they did not put tokens in them. And people who's items got deleted from their inventory got nothing, got no compensation. Even worse for the people who spend real cash for those items. If Cryptic can delete items, they also could compensate people whose items got deleted.
Not compensating will cause less money spending into this game by some people. Because you never know when Cryptic will decide to delete things you have spend money on without comepnsation. If that was Cryptics aim, they were successful.
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There is a big difference between deleting some tokens someone got free in a game event and charging someone money for said tokens and then deleting those tokens a few months later. Not only is it wrong but it also a good way to upset your player base.