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The Section 31 Lock Box!

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  • quinnftw76#3498 quinnftw76 Member Posts: 22 Arc User
    > @rattler2 said:
    > nathankirts wrote: »
    >
    > The legislation, introduced into the US Senate, aims to ban loot boxes, and pay-to-win micro-transactions. Not all MTX.
    >
    > That does not, of course, answer the question of whether STO could survive without loot boxes. And there's no guarantee that this bill will pass the Senate and become law (or when that law would take effect). Plus, I'm sure there will be debate on what exactly constitutes a "pay to win" MTX. I doubt the C-Store would be closed. But without Loot Boxes, something would have to be done about the Lobi store.
    >
    > Personally, I would not mind seeing loot boxes banned. Even if it means some games would have to shut down. The industry has had years to self regulate, and they have refused to do so.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > There's also the issue of how its implimented. Battlefront 2's implimentation was a disaster, as you HAD to open boxes in order to progress. Meanwhile Team Fortress 2's lockbox system is entirely optional as there's like 5 different ways to get things from them including through the box, and the only thing you get special out of it is maybe a Strange quality that has a score tracker. Literally nothing required to stay competative. Its all cosmetic.
    >
    > STO's is pretty similar to TF2's in that way. They're nice to have, but are not necessary and someone who doesn't open boxes can still get the shiny.
    >
    > Unless they make sure to specify SPECIFICALLY predatory behavior of sticking required items in lootbox mechanics that have viruturally no alternative way of getting them, they are threatening pretty much every F2P game in existance. I say virturally because EA's attempt at mitigating by saying "oh you CAN grind them out for free" was laughable because you'd practically have no choice anyways unless you want to LIVE in the game for over a year. It was basically blackmailing you into spending money just to keep your head above water.

    I think the lock boxes in STO are somewhere between cosmetic and necessary. There are ships and items that you can only get via the boxes. And ships are not simply cosmetic. They have varied configurations of bridge officer stations, console slots, and, as to T6, unique traits that you cannot otherwise acquire. The Lobi store is also problematic, but only because of the steep item prices. Have you ever calculated the average price of the items there, based on the average drop rate of Lobi?

    At the very least, there should be two improvements implemented. One, the odds on lock boxes should be posted. When I buy a lottery ticket, for example, the odds of winning every prize is printed on the back of the ticket. Consumers have the right to know what they're buying. Informed choice and all that. Two, all items in the Zen Store, Dil Store, or Lobi Store should have a real world currency value listed for reference.
  • kodachikunokodachikuno Member Posts: 6,020 Arc User1
    edited May 2019
    (Off topic comments removed. - BMR)
    Post edited by baddmoonrizin on
  • rattler2rattler2 Member, Moderators, Star Trek Online Moderator Posts: 55,863 Community Moderator

    I think the lock boxes in STO are somewhere between cosmetic and necessary. There are ships and items that you can only get via the boxes. And ships are not simply cosmetic. They have varied configurations of bridge officer stations, console slots, and, as to T6, unique traits that you cannot otherwise acquire. The Lobi store is also problematic, but only because of the steep item prices. Have you ever calculated the average price of the items there, based on the average drop rate of Lobi?

    I don't calculate the average price because other than the cheap 50 lobi weapons I typically pick things up off the Exchange for ECs. And for my Lobi... generally I buy a key here and there off the Exchange. So again... using ECs.
    At the very least, there should be two improvements implemented. One, the odds on lock boxes should be posted. When I buy a lottery ticket, for example, the odds of winning every prize is printed on the back of the ticket. Consumers have the right to know what they're buying. Informed choice and all that. Two, all items in the Zen Store, Dil Store, or Lobi Store should have a real world currency value listed for reference.

    While point one is somewhat valid, there is one thing that is consistant with Lockboxes. You ALWAYS get lobi. There is pretty much never an instance where you totally lose like in lottery or gambling. There's ALWAYS lobi. People just get tunnel vision trying to get the big prize, then complain when they don't.

    And I still say that the ships in the lockboxes are not necessary. They're nice to have, but you don't NEED them to do anything in the game. Do I REQUIRE anything from a lockbox just to play the game? No. I can get by just fine with C-Store ships. Is any content REQUIRING me to have a specific Lockbox ship or trait? No. The ONLY thing that can be considered REQUIRED or NECESSARY is if you're going for a specific build, generally a DPS build. But NONE OF IT IS REQUIRED FOR REGULAR GAMEPLAY. There isn't any content where a lockbox ship is a must have just to progress.

    Point B would probably only be relavent outside the US, as Zen prices in the US is pretty easy to compare to US Dollars. 2000 Zen is equal to $20. So basically 1 Zen is 1 cent. 100 Zen is $1. Outside the US is where things will most likely be less lined up. So compiling all the various price conversions for every country that you can play STO in is a rather big undertaking.
    66998372863950ee98cf7da9786e2ea9-db80k0m.png
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out a Delta Pack, Temporal Pack, and Gamma Pack
    The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • ltminnsltminns Member Posts: 12,485 Arc User
    But go back to one of the initial premises for these Stores - Cosmetics. Now try to seperate the Ship's Cosmetics from the Ship and its abilities. For many it is the look of the Ship that is important. They want to fly a ship that looks like the Constitution of chosen pedigree, or the NX, or whatever Hero ship that is their fancy.

    Maybe selling the Ship's Cosmetics seperately may be an idea to reduce all this wailing and knashing.
    'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
    Judge Dan Haywood
    'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
    l don't know.
    l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
    That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
    Lt. Philip J. Minns
  • rattler2rattler2 Member, Moderators, Star Trek Online Moderator Posts: 55,863 Community Moderator
    The way I see lockbox ships, they're not that different from getting a weapon from TF2's crates. Sure a Brass Beast has different stats from a standard Minigun, but its not gonna give you an advantage that you can ONLY get from the crate.

    The core issue here is how Battlefront 2 put things you MUST have to stay competative in their lootbox. STO doesn't do that. Yet people seem to think that is the case when in reality it doesn't. Yea the ships have their own stats and stuff, but they are still balanced to everything else in game. They are not "I win" buttons. There is no Pay2Win. You don't NEED the Vaadwaur Astika's Supremacy Trait to complete any content. You don't NEED a Vengeance to complete any content. The ONLY reason some of these things are viewed as "necessary" is because of the DPS mentality and how those particular things play into getting top DPS, which is not necessary for normal gameplay. You can give a bad player a Vengeance, and they will still perform badly.

    Now... if they created a T7 ship, made it EXCLUSIVELY lockbox, and started balancing the game around T7 ships... THEN there would be problems.
    66998372863950ee98cf7da9786e2ea9-db80k0m.png
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out a Delta Pack, Temporal Pack, and Gamma Pack
    The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • dariusturaldariustural Member Posts: 87 Arc User
    edited May 2019
    azrael605 wrote: »
    > @totenmet said:
    > azrael605 wrote: »
    >
    > > @dariustural said:
    > > I will pass. Server connections have been so poor I barely complete endeavors as I am so tired of warping and rubber banding into things. Not too sure I will be playing in the future since it adds frustration instead of enjoyment.
    >
    > Thats on your isp, not the game servers. I play daily and have no such issues.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > That incorrect. I have investigated this several times in the past. Its realty caused at cryptic side. Its visible when pinging the server.
    >
    > https://support.arcgames.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/4657/~/performing-a-traceroute-(tracert)
    >
    > As EU player I can confirm frequent rubber banding etc.

    No it is not or it would affect EVERYONE which it does not in any way shape or form. As a US player just north of an area of 2 million acres of massive flooding I can confirm no rubberbanding, no lag, none whatsoever.
    I live in the Southwest US for reference. I have gone through my entire network, have my gaming computer hardwired to my router (Gigabit / wifi hybrid network) , and changed to another isp two weeks ago. It could be a bad port or multiple bad ports that cannot handle the traffic to Cryptic. Not everyone joins on one "big fat pipe". When getting to Cryptic's patch server from the last akamai.net hop, the latency shoots from 42ms to 126ms, and sometimes even a 10% packet loss on heavy traffic times (using pingplotter).Cryptic's server is the only game server I am having issue with. My other games play fine. Only this game has been a growing issue for the last 2 months. I will not hijack this thread further, so message me. or look for the thread in the proper forum in the next two days.
  • iamjmphiamjmph Member Posts: 210 Arc User
    Vengeance is lobi store isn't it? Anyways, i don't really see anything worth spending money on in this box. I think i'll grab as many infinty boxes as i can for storage(if they are still free) and just use those when i get keys. While i typically look forward to lock boxes the last year and change have been let downs for me, other than the variety of research assignments and a couple of the re sequencers(oh and Holographic Leck, can't forget him). And this box just brings the horrible aesthetics of discovery (especially the "klingons") to the forefront. So sorry Cryptic, but I'm keeping my money. When this phase passes..maybe then.
  • westx211westx211 Member Posts: 41,804 Arc User
    rattler2 wrote: »

    I think the lock boxes in STO are somewhere between cosmetic and necessary. There are ships and items that you can only get via the boxes. And ships are not simply cosmetic. They have varied configurations of bridge officer stations, console slots, and, as to T6, unique traits that you cannot otherwise acquire. The Lobi store is also problematic, but only because of the steep item prices. Have you ever calculated the average price of the items there, based on the average drop rate of Lobi?

    I don't calculate the average price because other than the cheap 50 lobi weapons I typically pick things up off the Exchange for ECs. And for my Lobi... generally I buy a key here and there off the Exchange. So again... using ECs.
    At the very least, there should be two improvements implemented. One, the odds on lock boxes should be posted. When I buy a lottery ticket, for example, the odds of winning every prize is printed on the back of the ticket. Consumers have the right to know what they're buying. Informed choice and all that. Two, all items in the Zen Store, Dil Store, or Lobi Store should have a real world currency value listed for reference.

    While point one is somewhat valid, there is one thing that is consistant with Lockboxes. You ALWAYS get lobi. There is pretty much never an instance where you totally lose like in lottery or gambling. There's ALWAYS lobi. People just get tunnel vision trying to get the big prize, then complain when they don't.

    And I still say that the ships in the lockboxes are not necessary. They're nice to have, but you don't NEED them to do anything in the game. Do I REQUIRE anything from a lockbox just to play the game? No. I can get by just fine with C-Store ships. Is any content REQUIRING me to have a specific Lockbox ship or trait? No. The ONLY thing that can be considered REQUIRED or NECESSARY is if you're going for a specific build, generally a DPS build. But NONE OF IT IS REQUIRED FOR REGULAR GAMEPLAY. There isn't any content where a lockbox ship is a must have just to progress.

    Point B would probably only be relavent outside the US, as Zen prices in the US is pretty easy to compare to US Dollars. 2000 Zen is equal to $20. So basically 1 Zen is 1 cent. 100 Zen is $1. Outside the US is where things will most likely be less lined up. So compiling all the various price conversions for every country that you can play STO in is a rather big undertaking.

    The argument that you ALWAYS get something is no longer considered valid. Look at it this way, if something is designed to manipulate your mind in exactly the same way as gambling does, but for things that hold no real world value but cost you exhorbitant amounts of cash to get isn't that basically gambling? If anything its worse than gambling because atleast with gambling the House can lose something because they can lose money. In this case the house always wins because even though "you ALWAYS get something" it costs them absolutely nothing for you to win it. In addition this bill is being made because of games like Overwatch, I mean in overwatch "you ALWAYS win something" but many governments are no longer allowing that excuse.

    Plus the lockboxes (especially the promo packs) would likely fall under "Pay-to-win" due to the face that you pay for ships which in many cases have a huge statistical advantage over other ships in the game. Pay-to-win doesn't mean something is required for gameplay but gives you an advantage that you have to pay for. C Store ships might also follow under pay to win but considering they aren't random chance its not as bad as the lockboxes but they do tend to have a great advantage over all "free" ships. Honestly this bill could be bad for STO if it passes but I think the game could survive on a restructuring of th C Store atleast because although Lootboxes are so insanely profitable because of how predatory they are, I think the game has enough pull thanks to the current Star Trek shows that they could survive off pure ship sales.
    Men are not punished for their sins, but by them.
  • baddmoonrizinbaddmoonrizin Member Posts: 7,806 Community Moderator
    Ok, look, I understand that people feel a certain way about the concept of Lockboxes, but this thread is not about debating that issue. It's about the contents of this particular Lockbox that's about to be released. If you want to debate the lockbox concept and any legislation being currently discussed pertaining to them, please go start a thread on that in Ten Forward. Thank you.
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  • valoreahvaloreah Member Posts: 11,129 Arc User
    Not really a fan of the look of the Section 31 ships myself, but I am happy that they are being introduced for those who will enjoy them.
    Dear Devs: I enjoyed the Legacy of Romulus expansion much more than the Delta Rising expansion. .
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  • phoenixchronophoenixchrono Member Posts: 4 Arc User
    I'd love it if they would remove the faction requirements from the console/trait rewards you can get (the prize ship console/trait for opposite faction etc). I know i'm not likely to get the ship, but it would be nice if I could get the trait and stuff even if I am the same faction, without having to try and get the ship. I may not want the ship specifically, but I'm more likely to buy some keys if I can get the console/trait that I find interesting.
  • vampirialvampirial Member Posts: 92 Arc User
    I was never a huge fan of Discovery but always loved that ship, shame It wont have a custom Bridge or the ability to cloak to look like an asteroid. :( I will more than likely not get the ship though as people will ramp the price up.
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,231 Arc User
    rattler2 wrote: »
    The way I see lockbox ships, they're not that different from getting a weapon from TF2's crates. Sure a Brass Beast has different stats from a standard Minigun, but its not gonna give you an advantage that you can ONLY get from the crate.

    The core issue here is how Battlefront 2 put things you MUST have to stay competative in their lootbox. STO doesn't do that. Yet people seem to think that is the case when in reality it doesn't. Yea the ships have their own stats and stuff, but they are still balanced to everything else in game. They are not "I win" buttons. There is no Pay2Win. You don't NEED the Vaadwaur Astika's Supremacy Trait to complete any content. You don't NEED a Vengeance to complete any content. The ONLY reason some of these things are viewed as "necessary" is because of the DPS mentality and how those particular things play into getting top DPS, which is not necessary for normal gameplay. You can give a bad player a Vengeance, and they will still perform badly.

    Now... if they created a T7 ship, made it EXCLUSIVELY lockbox, and started balancing the game around T7 ships... THEN there would be problems.
    The simplest analogy for the BF2 stuff is to compare it to rank 4 combat powers when the others are only rank 3. And even then it's more about how hard it is to get it, than the actual power level.
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  • fred26291#2759 fred26291 Member Posts: 1,064 Arc User
    Section 31 Holo disguise not worth it as a consumed on use device. Tried it once, will not continue to purchase just to have one.
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