One thing I wonder is how they'll portray Prime!Lorca to contrast with the deadly serious, morally-lacking Mirror one.
Given that Mirror Lorca was able to fool everyone into thinking he was the Prime Lorca for a period of like a year, the way he acted on Discovery, before they jumped over to the Mirror Universe and he revealed himself as being from the Mirror Universe, is probably pretty close to how Prime Lorca acted.
Mind you, paranoia caught up with him when he was spending some intimate time with the Admiral....
0
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Apparently Jason Issacs was also in the movie Fury.
> @azrael605 said: > > @marty123#3757 said: > > reyan01 wrote: » > > > > tomilak wrote: » > > > > As i seem to recall didnt Lorca die? > > > > > > > > > > Mirror Lorca did. Or was absorbed by the mycelial network....... > > > > Prime Locra.... well, we know he swapped places with his Mirror-Counterpart; the assumption was that he probably wouldn't have survived in the Mirror Universe; however it was never addressed further and was thus left open-ended, so who knows? > > > > > > > > > > the ISS Buran exploded immediately after Prime Lorca crossed over, unfortunately it is assumed he died. > > Actually Mirror Lorca was in a shuttle when the transfer happened, a shuttle taking fire from a starship.
You should rewatch the episode, it literally shows the ISS Buran being destroyed
> @somtaawkhar said: > marty123#3757 wrote: » > > You should rewatch the episode, it literally shows the ISS Buran being destroyed > > > > He never said it wasn't. He said Lorca wasn't on the Buran when it was destroyed, he was on a shuttle going to the Buran.
Then when Mirror Lorca beamed onto the ISS Buran he swapped places with Prime Lorca who ended up on the ISS Buran instead, which preceded to explode.
Unless the transporter was somehow redirected and every forgot about it, Prime Lorca is dead.
> @somtaawkhar said: > marty123#3757 wrote: » > > Then when Mirror Lorca beamed onto the ISS Buran he swapped places with Prime Lorca who ended up on the ISS Buran instead, which preceded to explode. > > Unless the transporter was somehow redirected and every forgot about it, Prime Lorca is dead. > > > > According to the Discovery novels, which were written to follow canon, Lorca is alive, being held in a prison somewhere in the MU.
They are not canon until backed up in the show, in Desperate Measures they mentioned how Starfleet had two uniforms (Discovery and TOS) which confused non-humans, in the show however the new bright coloured uniforms don’t get released until years after as Pike refers to them as new.
This certainly is welcome, if unexpected. Hopefully, these (I can't say Featured because we don't have them anymore) Episodes will have rewards comensurate with their design.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
> @marty123#3757 said: > > @somtaawkhar said: > > marty123#3757 wrote: » > > > > Then when Mirror Lorca beamed onto the ISS Buran he swapped places with Prime Lorca who ended up on the ISS Buran instead, which preceded to explode. > > > > Unless the transporter was somehow redirected and every forgot about it, Prime Lorca is dead. > > > > > > > > According to the Discovery novels, which were written to follow canon, Lorca is alive, being held in a prison somewhere in the MU. > > They are not canon until backed up in the show, in Desperate Measures they mentioned how Starfleet had two uniforms (Discovery and TOS) which confused non-humans, in the show however the new bright coloured uniforms don’t get released until years after as Pike refers to them as new.
CBS says they are canon. End of argument. Only CBS can say what is and what isn't canon.
People ask how long have I been playing STO - well the answer is simple: I have been here since the beginning. I just haven't always had a lot to say.
Commander Landry? "I'm gonna shoot that Tardigrade till it tells me how to use it as a weapon" Landry? The most ridiculous, condescending, wanna be badass chief of security in the history of Star Trek? I can't wait to meet her..
Mirror Landry was Empress, albeit briefly.
I am surprised that they were able to get Mr. Isaacs.
As long as my main that I've had since 4 day head start is getting supplanted, I don't care. Give me another reputation to grind for, well give me a reputation to grind for on my main ONLY, and I will be fine.
One thing I wonder is how they'll portray Prime!Lorca to contrast with the deadly serious, morally-lacking Mirror one.
Given that Mirror Lorca was able to fool everyone into thinking he was the Prime Lorca for a period of like a year, the way he acted on Discovery, before they jumped over to the Mirror Universe and he revealed himself as being from the Mirror Universe, is probably pretty close to how Prime Lorca acted.
Stress of war should give mirror Lorca some leeway and for the most part while in Prime verse Lorca didn't act that much different from Starfleet hardliners we've seen the the past, so "out of character" behaviour would probably be dismissed as "not wanting to repeat the fate of the Buran"
EDIT:Also I'm pretty sure not timetravel is involved in these missions, either "at the correct time" for AoD captains or historical recreations for other captains.
> @marty123#3757 said:
> reyan01 wrote: »
>
> tomilak wrote: »
>
> As i seem to recall didnt Lorca die?
>
>
>
>
> Mirror Lorca did. Or was absorbed by the mycelial network.......
>
> Prime Locra.... well, we know he swapped places with his Mirror-Counterpart; the assumption was that he probably wouldn't have survived in the Mirror Universe; however it was never addressed further and was thus left open-ended, so who knows?
>
>
>
>
> the ISS Buran exploded immediately after Prime Lorca crossed over, unfortunately it is assumed he died.
Actually Mirror Lorca was in a shuttle when the transfer happened, a shuttle taking fire from a starship.
I don't remember however if he was beaming onto the shuttle, or away from it (and if so, if it was to the Buran or to some place else). IIRC, Kirk was beaming up from a planet to the Enterprise when his switch happened, so I guess technically on the planet.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
> @somtaawkhar said:
> marty123#3757 wrote: »
>
> Then when Mirror Lorca beamed onto the ISS Buran he swapped places with Prime Lorca who ended up on the ISS Buran instead, which preceded to explode.
>
> Unless the transporter was somehow redirected and every forgot about it, Prime Lorca is dead.
>
>
>
> According to the Discovery novels, which were written to follow canon, Lorca is alive, being held in a prison somewhere in the MU.
They are not canon until backed up in the show, in Desperate Measures they mentioned how Starfleet had two uniforms (Discovery and TOS) which confused non-humans, in the show however the new bright coloured uniforms don’t get released until years after as Pike refers to them as new.
Does it actually matter whether it's canon? On screen, there is no defintiive statement that he's dead. He's presumed dead. If the writers want to revive him for STO, a novel or the next season of Discovery, for Picard, the Section 31 show or anything else, they could, and it wouldn't be a big stretch.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
> @reyan01 said: > marty123#3757 wrote: » > > > @somtaawkhar said: > > marty123#3757 wrote: » > > > > You should rewatch the episode, it literally shows the ISS Buran being destroyed > > > > > > > > He never said it wasn't. He said Lorca wasn't on the Buran when it was destroyed, he was on a shuttle going to the Buran. > > Then when Mirror Lorca beamed onto the ISS Buran he swapped places with Prime Lorca who ended up on the ISS Buran instead, which preceded to explode. > > Unless the transporter was somehow redirected and every forgot about it, Prime Lorca is dead. > > > > > Again, not necessarily. > > The scenario was basically the same. Both the USS and ISS Buran were being attacked, USS Buran by Klingons and ISS Buran by the Charon. > Both Lorca's attempted to transport back to their respective ships. An Ion storm caused the two Lorca's to switch places. > Both the USS and the ISS Buran were destroyed by their respective attackers. > > However, we KNOW Mirror Lorca surived the destruction of the USS Buran. It's questionable whether he was telling the truth when he said that he destroyed the USS Buran to prevent the Klingons taking her crew hostage, but eitherway - whilst we don't know the exactly circumstances surrounding his survival, he clearly did survive and subsequently assumed command of the USS Discovery. > > So is it a huge stretch of the imagination to say that Prime Lorca survived the destruction of the ISS Buran? I think not.
Yeah, I’m not saying he is definitely dead, I’m just saying he’s presumed dead and I’m being attacked with the argument of “but the books” which have already been proven wrong as it takes place in 2244 and mentions uniforms which are new in 2257.
Prior to DSC, only three other Trek shows visited the Mirror Universe; TOS, DS9, ENT. Looking at all of the Mirror Universe episodes from them, several things become very clear;
1/ One-to-one displacement via Transporter to the same place and time in both universes, is very unusual. It has only been seen on screen once (Mirror, Mirror).
2/ There is no hard and fast rule that states one-to-one displacement has to happen. Which is Why Major Kira was able to speak directly to her Mirror Counterpart face to face. In fact DS9 never did a one-to-one displacement episode. People were able to cross from either side without causing their mirror self to be displaced. Mirror Detmer, Mirror Saru, Mirror Voq were not displaced by there Prime counterparts. In fact, Prime Voq and Mirror Voq faced off against each other, Prime Voq was almost killed by his mirror counterpart. The only person we can be sure was displaced by that event was Silvia Tilly.
3/ Not all people are mirrored - Jake Sisko didn't exist in the Mirror Universe. In fact, not all things exist in the Mirror Universe. The USS Defiant (Constitution Class) did not exist in the Mirror Universe. It is a unique item to the Prime Universe which crossed over to the Mirror Universe. No mirror of the ship, or it's crew were displaced.
4/ Deaths are not linked - death in either universe does not automatically mean death in the other universe.
5/ There are many ways to access to the Mirror Universe other than Ion Storms.
6/ Time is completely irrelevant when crossing between either universe. You are not guaranteed to end up in the same time-frame that you left. Or for that matter, return to the same time-frame you left. The USS Defiant left the Prime Universe in 2267, and entered the Mirror Universe at some point in the 2150's. Also, it never came back. The USS Defiant became a part of the Mirror Universe.
7/ Both universe's are linked - events in one can have a profound affect on the other. The nature of that link, why it exists (within the frame-work of the Trek Universe) is not known. Both universe's affect each other however.
In addition we have to include the following;
8/ CBS have stated that the current four existing DSC novels, and the various graphic novels/comic books are canon. This is a change to Gene's rule that canon was only what was seen on screen. Gene's rule is gone. CBS call the shots, so I have to be minded that within the canon of Trek evidence exists that Prime Lorca is alive - or was at one point. It's not arguable, it's canon fact.
9/ CBS are on record as stating that the events within STO are canon.
10/ The ISS Discovery was displaced to Pavo when the USS Discovery entered the Mirror Universe. However, an Ion storm in the Mirror Universe caused the ISS Discovery to be displaced 150 years into the future. There was no Ion storm in the Prime Universe.
11/ Mirror Tilly did not return to the Mirror Universe. She may not be the only member of crew that escaped. People from the ISS Charon are also within the Prime Universe now. They, and the Charon's wreckage were not returned.
Conclusion:
Prime Lorca's fate is... Unknown. There is no evidence that he was actually displaced to the Mirror Universe. There is no evidence that if he was displaced to the Mirror Universe, that it was an exact one-to-one space-time displacement. Entry to either Universe is complicated. We have one piece of evidence that Prime Lorca was alive at one point, in a cell. We don't know the space-time location of that cell, or even if it's in the Mirror Universe. If Prime Lorca survived entry to the Mirror Universe, he survived long enough to put in a cell.
It is possible for people to co-exist in the same Universe, which opens some interesting possibilities for the people rescued from the ISS Charon.
People ask how long have I been playing STO - well the answer is simple: I have been here since the beginning. I just haven't always had a lot to say.
Yeah, I’m not saying he is definitely dead, I’m just saying he’s presumed dead and I’m being attacked with the argument of “but the books” which have already been proven wrong as it takes place in 2244 and mentions uniforms which are new in 2257.
"Drastic Measures" (which takes place in 2246 - it states the year at the beginning) does NOT state that the crew of the Enterprise, or the Defiant (the ship Georgiou was going to be XO on) were using a different uniform at that time. The only comment about Robert April's clothes is that he was wearing a sweater. There is no evidence that the Enterprise crew was wearing anything other than standard Starfleet Uniform at the time.
"Desperate Hours" (which takes place in 2255 - one year before The Battle of the Binary Stars) states that the Enterprise crew, under Pike's command, are wearing more colourful uniforms. So by the time of "Brother" which is set in 2257/2258 these are still relatively new uniforms. It's within the realm of possibility that a prior version existed, which used the colour palate as seen in "The Cage." Even if the same uniform had only been introduced in 2251, they are still relatively new compared with the more common Starfleet Uniform, which has been in use for several decades.
Picard's crew wore 4 different uniform designs over a 15 year period. Picard himself was shown to have worn five different versions of Starfleet Uniform (TWOK, TNG1-2, TNG 3-7, DS9/VOY, FC)
BTW, when it comes to continuity... Star Trek sucks. Things change, get retconned all the time. You have to roll with it. Go watch "Space Seed" then watch "The Wrath of Khan." Major, glaring issues with continuity; Chekov didn't even exist as a character within TOS when "Space Seed" was made. Chekov wasn't introduced until Season 2 of TOS. Yet somehow, Khan knew him. I don't even think the two actors had met before they made that film, lol. But we al accept that Chekov was on the Enterprise at the time, and his first meeting with Khan happened off camera.
People ask how long have I been playing STO - well the answer is simple: I have been here since the beginning. I just haven't always had a lot to say.
> @madhatch1971 said: > Prior to DSC, only three other Trek shows visited the Mirror Universe; TOS, DS9, ENT. Looking at all of the Mirror Universe episodes from them, several things become very clear; > > 1/ One-to-one displacement via Transporter to the same place and time in both universes, is very unusual. It has only been seen on screen once (Mirror, Mirror). > 2/ There is no hard and fast rule that states one-to-one displacement has to happen. Which is Why Major Kira was able to speak directly to her Mirror Counterpart face to face. In fact DS9 never did a one-to-one displacement episode. People were able to cross from either side without causing their mirror self to be displaced. Mirror Detmer, Mirror Saru, Mirror Voq were not displaced by there Prime counterparts. In fact, Prime Voq and Mirror Voq faced off against each other, Prime Voq was almost killed by his mirror counterpart. The only person we can be sure was displaced by that event was Silvia Tilly. > 3/ Not all people are mirrored - Jake Sisko didn't exist in the Mirror Universe. In fact, not all things exist in the Mirror Universe. The USS Defiant (Constitution Class) did not exist in the Mirror Universe. It is a unique item to the Prime Universe which crossed over to the Mirror Universe. No mirror of the ship, or it's crew were displaced. > 4/ Deaths are not linked - death in either universe does not automatically mean death in the other universe. > 5/ There are many ways to access to the Mirror Universe other than Ion Storms. > 6/ Time is completely irrelevant when crossing between either universe. You are not guaranteed to end up in the same time-frame that you left. Or for that matter, return to the same time-frame you left. The USS Defiant left the Prime Universe in 2267, and entered the Mirror Universe at some point in the 2150's. Also, it never came back. The USS Defiant became a part of the Mirror Universe. > 7/ Both universe's are linked - events in one can have a profound affect on the other. The nature of that link, why it exists (within the frame-work of the Trek Universe) is not known. Both universe's affect each other however. > > In addition we have to include the following; > > 8/ CBS have stated that the current four existing DSC novels, and the various graphic novels/comic books are canon. This is a change to Gene's rule that canon was only what was seen on screen. Gene's rule is gone. CBS call the shots, so I have to be minded that within the canon of Trek evidence exists that Prime Lorca is alive - or was at one point. It's not arguable, it's canon fact. > 9/ CBS are on record as stating that the events within STO are canon. > 10/ The ISS Discovery was displaced to Pavo when the USS Discovery entered the Mirror Universe. However, an Ion storm in the Mirror Universe caused the ISS Discovery to be displaced 150 years into the future. There was no Ion storm in the Prime Universe. > 11/ Mirror Tilly did not return to the Mirror Universe. She may not be the only member of crew that escaped. People from the ISS Charon are also within the Prime Universe now. They, and the Charon's wreckage were not returned. > > Conclusion: > > Prime Lorca's fate is... Unknown. There is no evidence that he was actually displaced to the Mirror Universe. There is no evidence that if he was displaced to the Mirror Universe, that it was an exact one-to-one space-time displacement. Entry to either Universe is complicated. We have one piece of evidence that Prime Lorca was alive at one point, in a cell. We don't know the space-time location of that cell, or even if it's in the Mirror Universe. If Prime Lorca survived entry to the Mirror Universe, he survived long enough to put in a cell. > It is possible for people to co-exist in the same Universe, which opens some interesting possibilities for the people rescued from the ISS Charon.
Again it was shown in the show itself that Prime Lorca and Mirror Lorca swapped places, it’s the exact same way as Kirk and co crossed over.
> @madhatch1971 said: > marty123#3757 wrote: » > > Yeah, I’m not saying he is definitely dead, I’m just saying he’s presumed dead and I’m being attacked with the argument of “but the books” which have already been proven wrong as it takes place in 2244 and mentions uniforms which are new in 2257. > > > > > "Drastic Measures" (which takes place in 2246 - it states the year at the beginning) does NOT state that the crew of the Enterprise, or the Defiant (the ship Georgiou was going to be XO on) were using a different uniform at that time. The only comment about Robert April's clothes is that he was wearing a sweater. There is no evidence that the Enterprise crew was wearing anything other than standard Starfleet Uniform at the time. > > "Desperate Hours" (which takes place in 2255 - one year before The Battle of the Binary Stars) states that the Enterprise crew, under Pike's command, are wearing more colourful uniforms. So by the time of "Brother" which is set in 2257/2258 these are still relatively new uniforms, if they had only just been introduced 2255. It's within the realm of possibility that a prior version existed, which used the colour palate as seen in "The Cage." > > Picard's crew wore 4 different uniform designs over a 15 year period. Picard himself was shown to have worn five different versions of Starfleet Uniform (TWOK, TNG1-2, TNG 3-7, DS9/VOY, FC)
Once again, books aren’t canon, in Desperate Hours they mention how the Enterprise was built without holograms, holograms appear on the Enterprise in season 2. Also, Saru’s homeworld is called Kelpia which is later contradicted in CANON as it is called Kaminar.
Once again, books aren’t canon, in Desperate Hours they mention how the Enterprise was built without holograms, holograms appear on the Enterprise in season 2. Also, Saru’s homeworld is called Kelpia which is later contradicted in CANON as it is called Kaminar.
"Desperate Hours" - Pike and Georgiou communicate via hologram. Not via screen. Enterprise has a holographic system at the time.
In "Desperate Hours" Saru's home world is indeed referred to by him as Kelpia. However, in the later published novel "Fear Itself" Saru calls his home world Kaminar. This was a change made to the series bible, where Saru's home world was indeed called Kelpia, and was then changed to Kaminar by the production team. Changes like this happen during a shows first year.
Finally, and one more time (good grief, I'll end up sounding like Kevin Riley):
CBS, not us fans - CBS the people who own Star Trek, are the only ones who can state what is canon, and what isn't canon. So can you please - please - stop trying to gatekeep what is, and isn't canon.
People ask how long have I been playing STO - well the answer is simple: I have been here since the beginning. I just haven't always had a lot to say.
> @madhatch1971 said: > marty123#3757 wrote: » > > Again it was shown in the show itself that Prime Lorca and Mirror Lorca swapped places, it’s the exact same way as Kirk and co crossed over. > > > > > No, it wasn't. We saw the ISS Buran under attack. We did not see Lorca, his shuttle, or the transporter event. That event has not been seen. > marty123#3757 wrote: » > > Once again, books aren’t canon, in Desperate Hours they mention how the Enterprise was built without holograms, holograms appear on the Enterprise in season 2. Also, Saru’s homeworld is called Kelpia which is later contradicted in CANON as it is called Kaminar. > > > > > "Desperate Hours" - Pike and Georgiou communicate via hologram. Not via screen. Enterprise has a holographic system at the time. > > In "Desperate Hours" Saru's home world is indeed referred to by him as Kelpia. However, in the later published novel "Fear Itself" Saru calls his home world Kaminar. This was a change made to the series bible, where Saru's home world was indeed called Kelpia, and was then changed to Kaminar by the production team. Changes like this happen during a shows first year. > > Finally, and one more time (good grief, I'll end up sounding like Kevin Riley): > > CBS, not us fans - CBS the people who own Star Trek, are the only ones who can state what is canon, and what isn't canon. So can you please - please - stop trying to gatekeep what is, and isn't canon.
Learn to accept you’re wrong. The books just like STO are written to fit with canon but anything that happens in the show overrules the books. For instance if something happens in the Picard show that contradicts STO lore, then STO is not canon.
Learn to accept you’re wrong. The books just like STO are written to fit with canon but anything that happens in the show overrules the books. For instance if something happens in the Picard show that contradicts STO lore, then STO is not canon.
The books, just like the game is 'soft cannon.' The only real 'cannon' is what's happened on screen and rather you like it or not Lorca's official status is 'Unknown.' His fate has not been officially decided.
Learn to accept you’re wrong. The books just like STO are written to fit with canon but anything that happens in the show overrules the books. For instance if something happens in the Picard show that contradicts STO lore, then STO is not canon.
No one has said other wise. What people, myself included have said, is what CBS have stated is canon. You and I don't get to argue that. Because of in the scheme of things, you and I don't get to make the decision. I accept things change - and can be changed to suit what they do in the show. Such as the change from Kelpia to Kaminar. That name change, by the production team, is well known, and is reflected in later books.
As for Prime Lorca; he has NEVER been seen on screen. Only Mirror Lorca has been seen on screen. Prime Lorca's death has not been shown on screen, because Prime Lorca has (to date) not been on screen. We have only seen Mirror Lorca and his death. The only canon info we have on Prime Lorca comes from the book "Desperate Measures." Until the info in that is contradicted on screen, it stands as canon. Nothing seen on screen contradicts it. To quote "learn to accept when you're wrong."
Enterprise and holograms... sheesh, I've read the books. Have you? I'll screen shot the references if you like - Pike and Georgiou's holographic communication happens in the book. If you haven't read it - then how can you comment on it? That's just another form of gatekeeping.
Learn to accept you’re wrong. The books just like STO are written to fit with canon but anything that happens in the show overrules the books. For instance if something happens in the Picard show that contradicts STO lore, then STO is not canon.
The books, just like the game is 'soft cannon.' The only real 'cannon' is what's happened on screen and rather you like it or not Lorca's official status is 'Unknown.' His fate has not been officially decided.
Maybe we'll get another side of the story in the upcoming arc.. hard to say at this point.
Either way, it's a great move for the game and I am really excited to play missions featuring Lorca and Landry.. the trailer looks fantastic.
Absolutely - these things are soft canon. They stand until CBS says otherwise, changes are worked into them. People are so hot on this idea that things have to be right straight from the beginning... The first season of TOS, it's amazing how much changed. Spock went from having a distant human ancestor to having a human mother. Apparently, Vulcan was conquered. And can forget the meeting between Ensign Chekov and Khan - all in the First season of TOS...
David Mack made a lot of changes to his book based on changes to DSC's bible and what the (then) show runners had planned for Season 2. Those people were fired, the show bible was tweaked - name was changed. In the scheme of things, minor stuff that always happens with a new show. But stuff that changed after the book went into print. The eBook has been updated recently
Personally, I don't like CBS putting the books in the canon pile. On the other hand given some of the books written in the past regarding the Kirk and Co - maybe that's not a bad thing...
I thought it was interesting what the Devs said about the Picard show and what it could mean for STO. The game itself could end up becoming completely non-canon, depending on what (if any) changes the Picard series makes to the 25th Century.
I think it's a brilliant move to have Prime Lorca and Landry in game. I am really hoping that we get to see more of both them. Both actors are brilliant. Mirror Landry could be one of the cocooned bodies rescued from the Charon… Prime Lorca could have been in a cell on the Charon... But Prime Lorca being a prisoner and Georgiou not saying anything? The Emperor was entitled to keep some state secrets after all. And she was hot on keeping the Federation a secret from her people. She killed most of her council to control the knowledge. Thought experiments are always interesting.
People ask how long have I been playing STO - well the answer is simple: I have been here since the beginning. I just haven't always had a lot to say.
Stop with the "what is and isn't canon" argument. You're derailing the thread.
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'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Comments
I wish you left a link, but it's not as if the General Discussion stuff is hidden under lock and key (I hope
Mind you, paranoia caught up with him when he was spending some intimate time with the Admiral....
> > @marty123#3757 said:
> > reyan01 wrote: »
> >
> > tomilak wrote: »
> >
> > As i seem to recall didnt Lorca die?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Mirror Lorca did. Or was absorbed by the mycelial network.......
> >
> > Prime Locra.... well, we know he swapped places with his Mirror-Counterpart; the assumption was that he probably wouldn't have survived in the Mirror Universe; however it was never addressed further and was thus left open-ended, so who knows?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > the ISS Buran exploded immediately after Prime Lorca crossed over, unfortunately it is assumed he died.
>
> Actually Mirror Lorca was in a shuttle when the transfer happened, a shuttle taking fire from a starship.
You should rewatch the episode, it literally shows the ISS Buran being destroyed
> marty123#3757 wrote: »
>
> You should rewatch the episode, it literally shows the ISS Buran being destroyed
>
>
>
> He never said it wasn't. He said Lorca wasn't on the Buran when it was destroyed, he was on a shuttle going to the Buran.
Then when Mirror Lorca beamed onto the ISS Buran he swapped places with Prime Lorca who ended up on the ISS Buran instead, which preceded to explode.
Unless the transporter was somehow redirected and every forgot about it, Prime Lorca is dead.
> marty123#3757 wrote: »
>
> Then when Mirror Lorca beamed onto the ISS Buran he swapped places with Prime Lorca who ended up on the ISS Buran instead, which preceded to explode.
>
> Unless the transporter was somehow redirected and every forgot about it, Prime Lorca is dead.
>
>
>
> According to the Discovery novels, which were written to follow canon, Lorca is alive, being held in a prison somewhere in the MU.
They are not canon until backed up in the show, in Desperate Measures they mentioned how Starfleet had two uniforms (Discovery and TOS) which confused non-humans, in the show however the new bright coloured uniforms don’t get released until years after as Pike refers to them as new.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
> > @somtaawkhar said:
> > marty123#3757 wrote: »
> >
> > Then when Mirror Lorca beamed onto the ISS Buran he swapped places with Prime Lorca who ended up on the ISS Buran instead, which preceded to explode.
> >
> > Unless the transporter was somehow redirected and every forgot about it, Prime Lorca is dead.
> >
> >
> >
> > According to the Discovery novels, which were written to follow canon, Lorca is alive, being held in a prison somewhere in the MU.
>
> They are not canon until backed up in the show, in Desperate Measures they mentioned how Starfleet had two uniforms (Discovery and TOS) which confused non-humans, in the show however the new bright coloured uniforms don’t get released until years after as Pike refers to them as new.
CBS says they are canon. End of argument. Only CBS can say what is and what isn't canon.
Mirror Landry was Empress, albeit briefly.
I am surprised that they were able to get Mr. Isaacs.
Also, so much for the No Captain rule, huh?
Stress of war should give mirror Lorca some leeway and for the most part while in Prime verse Lorca didn't act that much different from Starfleet hardliners we've seen the the past, so "out of character" behaviour would probably be dismissed as "not wanting to repeat the fate of the Buran"
EDIT:Also I'm pretty sure not timetravel is involved in these missions, either "at the correct time" for AoD captains or historical recreations for other captains.
I don't remember however if he was beaming onto the shuttle, or away from it (and if so, if it was to the Buran or to some place else). IIRC, Kirk was beaming up from a planet to the Enterprise when his switch happened, so I guess technically on the planet.
Does it actually matter whether it's canon? On screen, there is no defintiive statement that he's dead. He's presumed dead. If the writers want to revive him for STO, a novel or the next season of Discovery, for Picard, the Section 31 show or anything else, they could, and it wouldn't be a big stretch.
> marty123#3757 wrote: »
>
> > @somtaawkhar said:
> > marty123#3757 wrote: »
> >
> > You should rewatch the episode, it literally shows the ISS Buran being destroyed
> >
> >
> >
> > He never said it wasn't. He said Lorca wasn't on the Buran when it was destroyed, he was on a shuttle going to the Buran.
>
> Then when Mirror Lorca beamed onto the ISS Buran he swapped places with Prime Lorca who ended up on the ISS Buran instead, which preceded to explode.
>
> Unless the transporter was somehow redirected and every forgot about it, Prime Lorca is dead.
>
>
>
>
> Again, not necessarily.
>
> The scenario was basically the same. Both the USS and ISS Buran were being attacked, USS Buran by Klingons and ISS Buran by the Charon.
> Both Lorca's attempted to transport back to their respective ships. An Ion storm caused the two Lorca's to switch places.
> Both the USS and the ISS Buran were destroyed by their respective attackers.
>
> However, we KNOW Mirror Lorca surived the destruction of the USS Buran. It's questionable whether he was telling the truth when he said that he destroyed the USS Buran to prevent the Klingons taking her crew hostage, but eitherway - whilst we don't know the exactly circumstances surrounding his survival, he clearly did survive and subsequently assumed command of the USS Discovery.
>
> So is it a huge stretch of the imagination to say that Prime Lorca survived the destruction of the ISS Buran? I think not.
Yeah, I’m not saying he is definitely dead, I’m just saying he’s presumed dead and I’m being attacked with the argument of “but the books” which have already been proven wrong as it takes place in 2244 and mentions uniforms which are new in 2257.
1/ One-to-one displacement via Transporter to the same place and time in both universes, is very unusual. It has only been seen on screen once (Mirror, Mirror).
2/ There is no hard and fast rule that states one-to-one displacement has to happen. Which is Why Major Kira was able to speak directly to her Mirror Counterpart face to face. In fact DS9 never did a one-to-one displacement episode. People were able to cross from either side without causing their mirror self to be displaced. Mirror Detmer, Mirror Saru, Mirror Voq were not displaced by there Prime counterparts. In fact, Prime Voq and Mirror Voq faced off against each other, Prime Voq was almost killed by his mirror counterpart. The only person we can be sure was displaced by that event was Silvia Tilly.
3/ Not all people are mirrored - Jake Sisko didn't exist in the Mirror Universe. In fact, not all things exist in the Mirror Universe. The USS Defiant (Constitution Class) did not exist in the Mirror Universe. It is a unique item to the Prime Universe which crossed over to the Mirror Universe. No mirror of the ship, or it's crew were displaced.
4/ Deaths are not linked - death in either universe does not automatically mean death in the other universe.
5/ There are many ways to access to the Mirror Universe other than Ion Storms.
6/ Time is completely irrelevant when crossing between either universe. You are not guaranteed to end up in the same time-frame that you left. Or for that matter, return to the same time-frame you left. The USS Defiant left the Prime Universe in 2267, and entered the Mirror Universe at some point in the 2150's. Also, it never came back. The USS Defiant became a part of the Mirror Universe.
7/ Both universe's are linked - events in one can have a profound affect on the other. The nature of that link, why it exists (within the frame-work of the Trek Universe) is not known. Both universe's affect each other however.
In addition we have to include the following;
8/ CBS have stated that the current four existing DSC novels, and the various graphic novels/comic books are canon. This is a change to Gene's rule that canon was only what was seen on screen. Gene's rule is gone. CBS call the shots, so I have to be minded that within the canon of Trek evidence exists that Prime Lorca is alive - or was at one point. It's not arguable, it's canon fact.
9/ CBS are on record as stating that the events within STO are canon.
10/ The ISS Discovery was displaced to Pavo when the USS Discovery entered the Mirror Universe. However, an Ion storm in the Mirror Universe caused the ISS Discovery to be displaced 150 years into the future. There was no Ion storm in the Prime Universe.
11/ Mirror Tilly did not return to the Mirror Universe. She may not be the only member of crew that escaped. People from the ISS Charon are also within the Prime Universe now. They, and the Charon's wreckage were not returned.
Conclusion:
Prime Lorca's fate is... Unknown. There is no evidence that he was actually displaced to the Mirror Universe. There is no evidence that if he was displaced to the Mirror Universe, that it was an exact one-to-one space-time displacement. Entry to either Universe is complicated. We have one piece of evidence that Prime Lorca was alive at one point, in a cell. We don't know the space-time location of that cell, or even if it's in the Mirror Universe. If Prime Lorca survived entry to the Mirror Universe, he survived long enough to put in a cell.
It is possible for people to co-exist in the same Universe, which opens some interesting possibilities for the people rescued from the ISS Charon.
"Drastic Measures" (which takes place in 2246 - it states the year at the beginning) does NOT state that the crew of the Enterprise, or the Defiant (the ship Georgiou was going to be XO on) were using a different uniform at that time. The only comment about Robert April's clothes is that he was wearing a sweater. There is no evidence that the Enterprise crew was wearing anything other than standard Starfleet Uniform at the time.
"Desperate Hours" (which takes place in 2255 - one year before The Battle of the Binary Stars) states that the Enterprise crew, under Pike's command, are wearing more colourful uniforms. So by the time of "Brother" which is set in 2257/2258 these are still relatively new uniforms. It's within the realm of possibility that a prior version existed, which used the colour palate as seen in "The Cage." Even if the same uniform had only been introduced in 2251, they are still relatively new compared with the more common Starfleet Uniform, which has been in use for several decades.
Picard's crew wore 4 different uniform designs over a 15 year period. Picard himself was shown to have worn five different versions of Starfleet Uniform (TWOK, TNG1-2, TNG 3-7, DS9/VOY, FC)
BTW, when it comes to continuity... Star Trek sucks. Things change, get retconned all the time. You have to roll with it. Go watch "Space Seed" then watch "The Wrath of Khan." Major, glaring issues with continuity; Chekov didn't even exist as a character within TOS when "Space Seed" was made. Chekov wasn't introduced until Season 2 of TOS. Yet somehow, Khan knew him. I don't even think the two actors had met before they made that film, lol. But we al accept that Chekov was on the Enterprise at the time, and his first meeting with Khan happened off camera.
> Prior to DSC, only three other Trek shows visited the Mirror Universe; TOS, DS9, ENT. Looking at all of the Mirror Universe episodes from them, several things become very clear;
>
> 1/ One-to-one displacement via Transporter to the same place and time in both universes, is very unusual. It has only been seen on screen once (Mirror, Mirror).
> 2/ There is no hard and fast rule that states one-to-one displacement has to happen. Which is Why Major Kira was able to speak directly to her Mirror Counterpart face to face. In fact DS9 never did a one-to-one displacement episode. People were able to cross from either side without causing their mirror self to be displaced. Mirror Detmer, Mirror Saru, Mirror Voq were not displaced by there Prime counterparts. In fact, Prime Voq and Mirror Voq faced off against each other, Prime Voq was almost killed by his mirror counterpart. The only person we can be sure was displaced by that event was Silvia Tilly.
> 3/ Not all people are mirrored - Jake Sisko didn't exist in the Mirror Universe. In fact, not all things exist in the Mirror Universe. The USS Defiant (Constitution Class) did not exist in the Mirror Universe. It is a unique item to the Prime Universe which crossed over to the Mirror Universe. No mirror of the ship, or it's crew were displaced.
> 4/ Deaths are not linked - death in either universe does not automatically mean death in the other universe.
> 5/ There are many ways to access to the Mirror Universe other than Ion Storms.
> 6/ Time is completely irrelevant when crossing between either universe. You are not guaranteed to end up in the same time-frame that you left. Or for that matter, return to the same time-frame you left. The USS Defiant left the Prime Universe in 2267, and entered the Mirror Universe at some point in the 2150's. Also, it never came back. The USS Defiant became a part of the Mirror Universe.
> 7/ Both universe's are linked - events in one can have a profound affect on the other. The nature of that link, why it exists (within the frame-work of the Trek Universe) is not known. Both universe's affect each other however.
>
> In addition we have to include the following;
>
> 8/ CBS have stated that the current four existing DSC novels, and the various graphic novels/comic books are canon. This is a change to Gene's rule that canon was only what was seen on screen. Gene's rule is gone. CBS call the shots, so I have to be minded that within the canon of Trek evidence exists that Prime Lorca is alive - or was at one point. It's not arguable, it's canon fact.
> 9/ CBS are on record as stating that the events within STO are canon.
> 10/ The ISS Discovery was displaced to Pavo when the USS Discovery entered the Mirror Universe. However, an Ion storm in the Mirror Universe caused the ISS Discovery to be displaced 150 years into the future. There was no Ion storm in the Prime Universe.
> 11/ Mirror Tilly did not return to the Mirror Universe. She may not be the only member of crew that escaped. People from the ISS Charon are also within the Prime Universe now. They, and the Charon's wreckage were not returned.
>
> Conclusion:
>
> Prime Lorca's fate is... Unknown. There is no evidence that he was actually displaced to the Mirror Universe. There is no evidence that if he was displaced to the Mirror Universe, that it was an exact one-to-one space-time displacement. Entry to either Universe is complicated. We have one piece of evidence that Prime Lorca was alive at one point, in a cell. We don't know the space-time location of that cell, or even if it's in the Mirror Universe. If Prime Lorca survived entry to the Mirror Universe, he survived long enough to put in a cell.
> It is possible for people to co-exist in the same Universe, which opens some interesting possibilities for the people rescued from the ISS Charon.
Again it was shown in the show itself that Prime Lorca and Mirror Lorca swapped places, it’s the exact same way as Kirk and co crossed over.
> marty123#3757 wrote: »
>
> Yeah, I’m not saying he is definitely dead, I’m just saying he’s presumed dead and I’m being attacked with the argument of “but the books” which have already been proven wrong as it takes place in 2244 and mentions uniforms which are new in 2257.
>
>
>
>
> "Drastic Measures" (which takes place in 2246 - it states the year at the beginning) does NOT state that the crew of the Enterprise, or the Defiant (the ship Georgiou was going to be XO on) were using a different uniform at that time. The only comment about Robert April's clothes is that he was wearing a sweater. There is no evidence that the Enterprise crew was wearing anything other than standard Starfleet Uniform at the time.
>
> "Desperate Hours" (which takes place in 2255 - one year before The Battle of the Binary Stars) states that the Enterprise crew, under Pike's command, are wearing more colourful uniforms. So by the time of "Brother" which is set in 2257/2258 these are still relatively new uniforms, if they had only just been introduced 2255. It's within the realm of possibility that a prior version existed, which used the colour palate as seen in "The Cage."
>
> Picard's crew wore 4 different uniform designs over a 15 year period. Picard himself was shown to have worn five different versions of Starfleet Uniform (TWOK, TNG1-2, TNG 3-7, DS9/VOY, FC)
Once again, books aren’t canon, in Desperate Hours they mention how the Enterprise was built without holograms, holograms appear on the Enterprise in season 2. Also, Saru’s homeworld is called Kelpia which is later contradicted in CANON as it is called Kaminar.
No, it wasn't. We saw the ISS Buran under attack. We did not see Lorca, his shuttle, or the transporter event. That event has not been seen.
"Desperate Hours" - Pike and Georgiou communicate via hologram. Not via screen. Enterprise has a holographic system at the time.
In "Desperate Hours" Saru's home world is indeed referred to by him as Kelpia. However, in the later published novel "Fear Itself" Saru calls his home world Kaminar. This was a change made to the series bible, where Saru's home world was indeed called Kelpia, and was then changed to Kaminar by the production team. Changes like this happen during a shows first year.
Finally, and one more time (good grief, I'll end up sounding like Kevin Riley):
CBS, not us fans - CBS the people who own Star Trek, are the only ones who can state what is canon, and what isn't canon. So can you please - please - stop trying to gatekeep what is, and isn't canon.
> marty123#3757 wrote: »
>
> Again it was shown in the show itself that Prime Lorca and Mirror Lorca swapped places, it’s the exact same way as Kirk and co crossed over.
>
>
>
>
> No, it wasn't. We saw the ISS Buran under attack. We did not see Lorca, his shuttle, or the transporter event. That event has not been seen.
> marty123#3757 wrote: »
>
> Once again, books aren’t canon, in Desperate Hours they mention how the Enterprise was built without holograms, holograms appear on the Enterprise in season 2. Also, Saru’s homeworld is called Kelpia which is later contradicted in CANON as it is called Kaminar.
>
>
>
>
> "Desperate Hours" - Pike and Georgiou communicate via hologram. Not via screen. Enterprise has a holographic system at the time.
>
> In "Desperate Hours" Saru's home world is indeed referred to by him as Kelpia. However, in the later published novel "Fear Itself" Saru calls his home world Kaminar. This was a change made to the series bible, where Saru's home world was indeed called Kelpia, and was then changed to Kaminar by the production team. Changes like this happen during a shows first year.
>
> Finally, and one more time (good grief, I'll end up sounding like Kevin Riley):
>
> CBS, not us fans - CBS the people who own Star Trek, are the only ones who can state what is canon, and what isn't canon. So can you please - please - stop trying to gatekeep what is, and isn't canon.
I’m not the one saying this, CBS is: https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Desperate_Hours
Learn to accept you’re wrong. The books just like STO are written to fit with canon but anything that happens in the show overrules the books. For instance if something happens in the Picard show that contradicts STO lore, then STO is not canon.
The books, just like the game is 'soft cannon.' The only real 'cannon' is what's happened on screen and rather you like it or not Lorca's official status is 'Unknown.' His fate has not been officially decided.
Even the very site you linked as proof shows that Lorca is missing and presumed deceased.
Maybe we'll get another side of the story in the upcoming arc.. hard to say at this point.
Either way, it's a great move for the game and I am really excited to play missions featuring Lorca and Landry.. the trailer looks fantastic.
No one has said other wise. What people, myself included have said, is what CBS have stated is canon. You and I don't get to argue that. Because of in the scheme of things, you and I don't get to make the decision. I accept things change - and can be changed to suit what they do in the show. Such as the change from Kelpia to Kaminar. That name change, by the production team, is well known, and is reflected in later books.
As for Prime Lorca; he has NEVER been seen on screen. Only Mirror Lorca has been seen on screen. Prime Lorca's death has not been shown on screen, because Prime Lorca has (to date) not been on screen. We have only seen Mirror Lorca and his death. The only canon info we have on Prime Lorca comes from the book "Desperate Measures." Until the info in that is contradicted on screen, it stands as canon. Nothing seen on screen contradicts it. To quote "learn to accept when you're wrong."
Enterprise and holograms... sheesh, I've read the books. Have you? I'll screen shot the references if you like - Pike and Georgiou's holographic communication happens in the book. If you haven't read it - then how can you comment on it? That's just another form of gatekeeping.
Absolutely - these things are soft canon. They stand until CBS says otherwise, changes are worked into them. People are so hot on this idea that things have to be right straight from the beginning... The first season of TOS, it's amazing how much changed. Spock went from having a distant human ancestor to having a human mother. Apparently, Vulcan was conquered. And can forget the meeting between Ensign Chekov and Khan - all in the First season of TOS...
David Mack made a lot of changes to his book based on changes to DSC's bible and what the (then) show runners had planned for Season 2. Those people were fired, the show bible was tweaked - name was changed. In the scheme of things, minor stuff that always happens with a new show. But stuff that changed after the book went into print. The eBook has been updated recently
Personally, I don't like CBS putting the books in the canon pile. On the other hand given some of the books written in the past regarding the Kirk and Co - maybe that's not a bad thing...
I thought it was interesting what the Devs said about the Picard show and what it could mean for STO. The game itself could end up becoming completely non-canon, depending on what (if any) changes the Picard series makes to the 25th Century.
I think it's a brilliant move to have Prime Lorca and Landry in game. I am really hoping that we get to see more of both them. Both actors are brilliant. Mirror Landry could be one of the cocooned bodies rescued from the Charon… Prime Lorca could have been in a cell on the Charon... But Prime Lorca being a prisoner and Georgiou not saying anything? The Emperor was entitled to keep some state secrets after all. And she was hot on keeping the Federation a secret from her people. She killed most of her council to control the knowledge. Thought experiments are always interesting.
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l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'