Elite Dangerous is introducing a new player-driven narrative mechanic called "Interstellar Initiatives". Essentially, they are rolling out scenarios that will run for about a month, which give players different ways to get involved and potentially result in persistent changes to the game.
So why cannot something similar be added to STO.
I've talked in the past about how I feel that STO lacks that certain element that connects players to the gameworld they play in. How I feel that everything is so
fire and forget in nature that nothing we do as individual players has any real meaning beyond our own personal gameplay experience. Something like this would resolve most, if not all of those issues.
Here is a youtube video describing how the system works and offering a breakdown of how their first Interstellar Initiative will play out:
("Not advertising" advertisement removed.
- BMR)
I am NOT trying to advertise another game. I don't even play Elite Dangerous. The video came up in my "Recommended" list, and I watched it and immediately thought about how STO could benefit from something like it. It is on that basis alone that I post this here.
So I ask you, if STO DID have something like this, would it be something you would invest gameplay time in?
If not, what would something like this need to offer in order to appeal to you?
"There can be no meeting of the minds between two parties
if both parties are not willing to meet in the middle."
-Ambassador Samuel J. Stone
Comments
Personally, what I'd love to see Cryptic do (for world building) is to make a concerted attempt to build setting through a new social map with a dedicated cast of original characters. Interacting with them over missions, map activities, and other content (ex. TFO's) would help build a sense of place and who else occupies it. Then, keep adding onto it. There wouldn't be a dedicated mechanic of investment and growth but the emotional sense of that (through narrative) could be conveyed (and in a more impactful way IMO.)
Basically, (and this comparison is more for Cryptic) build a social map like one of my Foundry maps. Then re-use the space to add on mini-missions, dailies, optional character dialog (ie. content besides TFO's to release between episodes) as well as for episodes and TFO's (where appropriate.) Set on-map content to a daily or hourly rotation to allow more expansions (without cluttering the space) and prevent players from burning through everything their very first time there. The players wouldn't be putting resources in to access the place necessarily (though it could be tied to a rep) but the key idea is to provide a place for players to emotionally invest in through related activities, shared environment, and a dedicated cast (in the best spirit of Trek, not simply monologuing mission-required exposition. )
We kinda had a part of this with cameo NPC's showing up on DS9 and we kinda have something like this with the event zones; just nothing that puts the pieces together (critical for it to work long term) and provides a new avenue for content add-ons outside the customary formats.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
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Because the STO narrative is scripted rather than emergent from a sandbox, and because the scripted narrative is intended to be available for new players and for replaying.
These ED events are one-time things that happen and allegedly make permanent changes to the sandbox.
The Iconian War needs to remain the Iconian War a year from now.
Simply put.. it doesn't need it.
Let me explain..
I am a long time Elite Dangerous Player. They have done things like this before, they're basically a revamped version of the 'Community Goals' that they have been running for years. This idea is intended to supplement the fact that Elite Dangerous honestly has no game at all. This is from someone who has hundreds of hours into this game, I have billions of credits, every ship, full engineering.. and I am telling you that outside of grinding for upgrades, there is no game in Elite. These events have been done before in this game and they don't feel nearly as immersive or cool as they make it sound.
It's usually something like the community has to contribute a certain amount of a resource to a station over X period of time and those that do it get a share of the overall reward. This is something that wouldn't go over well in STO as it already has things for players to do on a daily basis, from running queues, Battle Zones, story missions.. etc. The game we're comparing to has literally none of that. If you did this in STO it would just feel like more grind.. more daily things you need to do.. I honestly don't think it would go over well at all.
Don't let this pretty advertisement fool you.. this is Frontier Developments pretty way of packaging more endless grind that will be completely non immersive and contain no story at all. As someone who has played a ton of both of these games, trust me when I say you don't want to take queues from Elite Dangerous. They're really good at making things sound cool, but this isn't what you think it is.. and it wouldn't fit in STO.
Not just scripted, but overseen, with a potential veto by CBS.
Except when we don't. See. DS9 across multiple arcs or, more basically, the main faction hubs.
(I am describing facets that exist in STO now, with the suggestion being directed integration when the opportunity comes to develop another main location which will feature across more than one episode. It's pretty basic and something Cryptic might be interested in developing. See. Kael's comments on the last Ten Forward. He's been pushing for something like this, but I think it could come together through the integration with either added mechanics to an existing social map or a new social map enabling narrative expansion and character deployment in ways we haven't seen much outside the Foundry or Cryptic's short story blogs [hence: me suggesting it through forum feedback, in addition to comments I made then.])
So basically folks won't care because you've hand-waved away examples of when they do care (also add Kurland, Marimat, and Van'Ziel) per personal assertion as opposed to critical analysis of character dynamics and story appreciation. Also, for context you're talking to a Foundry author here who's probably spent more time both analyzing, experiencing, and wrangling how STO players appreciate original characters across multi-season arcs. Ie. testing hypotheses as well as simply formulating them. When I say "Cryptic could do that too for greater effect" (because they've done it in isolation and would benefit from adopting a more Star Trek-like cast format for their Star Trek game, I've seen how players respond when that's done well) I'm not just going with my gut and reckoning from a reductive view of the STO population.
Cryptic is more than capable of writing and deploying a character cast folks would care about over the long term. What's needed to achieve that for full effect is a good venue and off the top of my head I know of one that could serve (and bridge classic Trek with DSC season 2 and 3 while answering a long-standing question in STO.)
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
So? They don't write themselves to use an environment for more than one arc but that's a very, very long way to substantiating argument that it couldn't be done prior to the final sunset of the game. See. examples where it has been done even with respect to player driven social zones. Ex. the Krenim research lab between the Iconian War and Temporal Cold War.
I'm not arguing for remapping the game, only restricted application of a concept (ie. the one social map. They don't have to keep building more after that, the format would work best with smaller levels of incremental investment rather than replacement.)
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
Hate to say it but the man has a point, I had to google who Ethan Burgess was and than I was like.. oh yeah.. that guy.. and had to read who he was to be like OH RIGHT!
VanZyl is memorable to me and Jarok, I think Jarok got really lucky in being put into a ton of content in a fairly decent way that she is remembered. A lot of the STO characters just drop off the radar like Shon because instead of making the current gen Enterprise crew and original sto characters your usual go between they wanna use those guest stars and it makes a lot of them forgettable because of that.
But yeah it's a good point.. I care a lot more about seeing Garak than seeing whoever it was he replaced making a return /shrug
The "Alliance Operations Gateway Hub".
A jointly build starbase equipped with transwarp gateways that connect to outlying adjunct bases that can be installed based on local needs. Allowing anyone to enter the station from any hub in the galaxy, and leave it to any other hub in the galaxy. A precursor of Iconian Gateways or Borg Transwarp Hubs. The outlying hubs merely consist of a small operation center and some defense and docking installations, where as the major action happens inside the station somewhere at a specific and fixed point in the galaxy.
Something in size between Earth Space Dock and the Kelvin Timeline Yorktown Station, which is expanded as needed.
sounds like an upgraded version of Unity One
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Because they care about character development. Your ascribing diametrically opposed motivations per convenience. In one case people can care, but in the other they can't because reasons (down to the personal character of players as opposed to differential mechanics.)
So rather than taking a truism by faith ask yourself what dynamics allow players to become more attached characters to than others, why Kuummarke in particular stuck around to the point of being "liked" to take your point at face value. The Foundry provided some great demonstrations but because we can't talk about that (per hand waving) let's instead point to everything else in the field of human literature. Ie. well realized character arcs which elicit an emotional connection with the audience per the mechanics of writing and its cultural and personal context. STO could take greater advantage of that in light of how it tends to compartmentalize characters both in cameos and original (plot device) characters.
If you say "they can't" I'll simply say that's demonstrably incorrect (see. Foundry and what players did to build lasting appreciation of characters within a niche community and in spite of all the limitations of the system and attenuated population dynamics.) There is nothing alien about appreciating new characters to any group in humanity provided the effort was done effectively per context. While the STO player base deeply cares about Star Trek (to overgeneralize, there's levels of appreciation and attitudes towards existing characters) one can still connect with them (on a human level) with well realized characters and story telling (such as what connected them to the IP on the first place.) You may not appreciate that point (per your comments) but consider that your appreciation is not required for a suggestion to be posted to a feedback forum without extensive (and often derailing) conversation (discussion is certainly due but let's first establish that we're having one.) I'll direct your attention again to the fact that this is something that Cryptic has some interest in (through Kael's comments and the broader effort to tell richer stories through short story blogs and a greater emphasis on secondary characters in recent seasons. Kuumarke was an experiment and a successful one at that from their POV [she didn't become Khev 2.0, though that's glossing over a core mechanical reason why he isn't appreciated generally.) They sell the game on cameos but they recognize how limiting that can be to character arcs such as what the IP was founded on. Who cares, in the first place, that person X was cast to play character Y for series Z? It's the presentation and writing that build those connections and that most certainly doesn't stop when you move into STO (people don't stop being people when they sit down at a keyboard.)
Ie. appreciation of writing is not arbitrary and its worth examining the mechanics of how STO uses its characters and how they may be improved in ways which are financially and technically accessible (see the suggestion and pointed at original character as opposed to cameos, which I could just have well suggested if I wasn't thinking about practicality from the get-go.)
PS. minimizing the Foundry per population statistics still employs a set of invalidating statistical and mechanical assumptions which you should probably address if you want to continue using that point in cogent and constructive discussion (ie. work on the application or address the failings in the use of statistics.) For example: the existence of distinct tribal groups separating Foundry players and non-players, such that the disparity in population statistics could be used to comment on the specific application of character arcs (without, incidentally, considering what that actually entails per realistically grounded discussion. Ie. whether there was in fact a disconnect in this area of writing which would preclude integration as well as the role any disconnect had in the population trends in the Foundry.)
To use a statistical analogy: you're arguing from a Z-test of a proportion to make the case of a mixed effect linear model. You don't have to overreach like that, it's secondary to your main point in discussion.
Then perhaps you can address the practicality of suggestions per their mechanical implementation (ie. realism) rather than trying to negate the impetus for constructive feedback with regard to STO.
The scale of development here is a single social map, pre-existing mechanics, and creative decisions RE. characters in writing. I've made direct analogs myself. This is an achievable goal and there is a stated interest in the company for perhaps one day pursuing it in a dedicated fashion (something I was hoping to contribute ideas to here.)
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
Hell... I'd love it if we got to see Ezri at some point. Then again... I am kinda biased in favor of Trill.
Anyways... characters like VanZyl, Jarok, Koren are pretty much recurring characters. Just like you'd see in a series. They're not the frontline stars. Our characters are.
Well, you were eager to escalate.
Let's get to the point here, per context of discussion (review posting procession) this is your attempt to derail my original suggestion and any use of the Foundry (irrespective of context or clarification to specific application) to provide direct mechanical analogs for the use of characters in episodic story telling and, more specifically, the STO format per the invocation of a simple statistic beyond the remit of said statistic to factor in this discussion. Ie. grounding a suggestion in the realism of a practical example that I know some devs have experienced and can point to if the need arose through preserved archives. Not many suggestions have working examples or demonstrations deployed in this game (at some time), and while the Foundry doesn't represent a full test of Cryptic-deployed content it is substantiation of a type that grounds feedback.
(Note your contrasting use of personal assertion instead, as with the above post.)
The Foundry is out of your area (I don't think played it often, from what I recall of our previous conversation) but rather than accepting that the experiences of the community are many and various you've tried to exclude those points of view from discussion (intensively.) You didn't spend much time for the Foundry, therefore it cannot mean anything to discussions regarding mission structure, character use, gameplay, or any other aspect of content (because of a simple statistic which you've taken to reinforce your point of view.)
Sure.
If you had a practical turn of mind with respect to these discussion you would have discussed the mechanical implementation of content as opposed to arguing (vociferously) for lacking need, incompatible context, or lacking comparable example. There are definitely points to get into there. For the mods: I'll note that Som hasn't addressed the mechanics of my suggestion but rather ranted (at length) about it simply having no place through the pacing of season arcs, original characters (not realizing that this highlights the call for the original suggestion, ie. improving appreciation given the low hit rate [attributable to the form of story telling STO has mainly employed. It's plot focused]), and now the Foundry simply because I made the comparison between what I and other authors actually did (ex. Starbase Invictus, the Alliance Exploration Initiative) with points of potential evolution in the social map format per character-driven stories and settings (in line with the original OP's comment about what could the game do to further invest players in setting.)
Literally no one could have played these and they would still function as direct analogs for future content (with appropriate preservation, which we have) and considering that I'm making a suggestion for the devs (who know of this work) I don't feel that it's at all a problem to invoke those examples for support of a constructive argument made in a relevant thread.
Explicitly disregarding my ability to hold a contrary opinion in line with respectful discourse (the assumption here is to have given a definitive review from which further disagreement cannot be justified by a rational argument. To each his/her/their own this is not.)
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
Except that STO has used singular bases for more than one season arc (DS9, Krenim research lab fleet holding) making the "impractical" argument an overreach and one principally defined by context in the path of STO development (not mechanics.) What your point highlights that a persistent crew tied to a social zone is atypical and this context has been freely acknowledged. It would be very important to incorporate a persistent cast in with the plot in a sensible way which justifies having a focal point, this is very basic (and I didn't need to feel that it had to be specified in making a suggestion to devs, they know this.)
The point implying that making a "new cast of characters that the player base will actually enjoy getting to know" is an invalid effort is further an overreach taken from the lack of engagement with characters who have not been incorporated into character arcs (it wasn't done, so therefore it can't be done.) Ie. context, not specific implementation (the how never entered into it, just that it probably wouldn't work per an overgeneralization by the community tautologically justified by existing original characters, specifically ignoring the mechanics of how effective characters are written and what STO could do to further incorporate these to improve player appreciation of the STO original setting in line with the OP.) It's always a challenge writing a compelling cast but note that this suggestion is being referred to professional writers with demonstrated capabilities. I took this as read and didn't belabor the point for how to write casts well (I'm not concerned whether they could pull it off, considering the strength of STO's writing generally.)
Consider then the impetus for posting so intensively with respect to factors taken as read in the original post or not in contention.
I'll take that as a "totally unfamiliar" then. The easy refutation would be to say "I played X but the story telling mechanics there leaned on a content form which is difficult to translate to an official mission without switching the basic mode of story telling re. plot driven or character driven. Take for example how so much more time was needed with X because things like cutscenes aren't available. The need to emphasize character-driven story telling is an inevitable product of the format which (because of the specific differences with respect to key mechanics, ex. voiced pop-up dialog and cutscenes) the main game would have trouble trying to adopt in any extensive fashion."
Ie. if you wanted to actually comment on the specific writing problems here and what fundamental limitations there are on applying this idea the easy point is (and I know because I like trying to falsify my own ideas prior to posting per principles of honest intellectual debate) "what Cryptic does is valid in its own right and while it doesn't yield [as frequently] the range of experience found in character-driven story telling there are high points which could be more effectively invested in [see. playing to your strengths] with a concerted effort to emphasize plot-driven story telling principles. While Cryptic could develop a character-driven season arc or two an equal effort could yield more rewards with novel development in improving plot-driven story mechanics, assuming we're talking about making any changes at all. They could probably put something together with a crew, but it's not the necessarily most compelling choice among ideas in this vein (though this depends on the creative directions the devs want to take the game.)"
As is, you didn't (and spent an inordinate amount of time trying to gatekeep what examples I used), I've had to take on both sides of discussion for the sake of illustration (I have a rebuttal too. the Foundry isn't so reductive to character v. plot driven mechanics, but as I had to make the respectful counter argument I'll hold onto it for the time being.) Sufficed to say, there's a lot you can learn from here.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!