I said go rewatch TOS for the intra-ship beaming thing, I never said jack about going back to rewatch TOS about the bots.
Don't lie about what I said when its right there for everyone to read.
You are completely missing the point. I'm not saying you were talking about the bots when you told someone to go re-watch. The point is on the one hand you shoot down someone's point about saving Cornwell because there was no intra-ship beaming in TOS, then you turn right around and talk about something else that was also NOT in TOS, but was seen in last night's episode.
If they can add one thing not seen in TOS, they also could have added the other (if they wanted to). So it really has nothing to do with whether something was in TOS or not.
The magnet gun Tilly used to grab onto the dark matter was of limited power. To destroy the nanites you need a significantly more high powered magnet that can pull hard enough to undo their cohesion, and presumably crush the nanties entirely.
This is nonsense. Mostly because, how Star Trek: Discovery handles "dark matter", "nano constructs" and even "power and energy" has only the tiniest fraction of basis in real science.
Since it is all made up gobblety-g0ok, the writer does, in fact, need to say why a plot device from a previous episode will not work as a plot device in this episode.
Tyler explicitly stated during his debrief that all traces of Control were now gone and that Section 31 must never be allowed to do that again. Starting them on the path to being the underground organisation we know and love. They had to still jump into the future because they already did. The sixth and seventh signals still had to be made because they already happened, plus that Sphere Builder data is still a bit dangerous.
Cornwell's death genuinely made me sad, I liked her and she went out like a badass hero.
Canon synched up enough for my taste, though I am curious about the where/when/how of the Section 31 spinoff.
Michelle Yeoh stole the show, again, she remains the best thing about DSC. Her giggling while Leland was screaming his nanites out gave me life. Her series is going to rock.
Also Reno, she needs to be a regular, or whatever their equivalent of a regular is since they for some reason only put like 5 names in the opening credits despite other characters appearing just as much.
The battle was great, it looked great and phaser beams! My god how I've missed phaser beams since the reboot turned them into pewpews. I'm glad we've debooted back to the Primeverse. Apparently contrary to popular opinion I was very happy for an hour of constant space battle. It wasn't quite a DS9 battle scene but it most definitely satisfied.
Fortunately this episode will have put to rest the argument that this series was secretly Kelvinverse.
Compared to the first half of season one which was abysmal this show has come such a long way. But then half of the shows have cursed first seasons (looking at you TNG and VOY)
The origin is not itself, it just comes from a previous timeline where the time loop never existed.
That isn't how time travel, much less bootstrap paradoxes, work. In a bootstrap paradox there is no such thing as a timeline where the time loop never existed, because the time loop always existed. If the time loop never existed the paradox would have never happened.
Its the same with with Sela and the Iconians in STO. There was never a timeline where Sela didn't go back in time and attack the Iconians, causing the Iconians to get revenge on Sela and all Romulans by causing Hobus to destory Romulus, which is what caused Sela to go back in time and attack the Iconians, because if there was a time where one of these things didn't happen, then the other wouldn't have happened, meaning neither would have ever happened. But they clearly do happen meaning both always happened.
Sela is the creation of time travel so there was a timeline where Sela didn't go back in time and attack the Iconians because she didn't exist in that timeline.
You need to go back to Temporal Mechanics 101. It is impossible for there to not be an origin or the creation of its origin is itself. It is only a character's limited understanding of the temporal loop that creates the illusion of the Bootstrap paradox. Anyone with a Fourth Dimensional understanding of the universe knows that the Bootstrap Paradox doesn't exist and is only an issue for people with a Three Dimensional understanding of the universe.
There always has to be an initial timeline that creates the temporal loop. The illusion of the Bootstrap paradox simply requires an object creating a temporal loop where a person with limited understanding of temporal mechanics doesn't know the origin of the object. If an object from the future is sent back in time to create a temporal loop, then there is a previous timeline where the temporal loop never existed since the temporal loop and the origin of the object can't exist in the same timeline.
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,373Community Moderator
I think Kirk was interpreting the situation as a timeline. From his perspective, pawning off the glasses was not part of some time loop. From that particular point in time, Kirk would get those glasses in the future, as he already had recieved them in HIS past. So basically he was saying that yes, he will get his glasses in the future, from the perspective of them being in 20th Century San Fransisco.
If that makes any sense. Timeline Future, Personal Past.
so has anyone put up a youtube clip of the fight with control's fleet yet? i went looking for one last night, but it wasn't there...so either no one had done so yet or i was using the wrong search term
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,373Community Moderator
Its nonsense that a small, handheld, gravity gun isn't as powerful as transforming an entire room into a giant magnet?
Or, how about a suit that can go anywhere, anywhen, anytime the operator wants. Star Trek:Discovery (actually, maybe it is just Alex Kurtzman) need to dial it way back on "everything, everywhere has ALL THE POWER". From human-sized transporters that have enough power to transport a human from Earth to Qo'nos, to the ridiculous unlimited nonsense of the Red Angel Suit.
Energy is finite. Stuff needs energy to do work. Put some limits on the space magic. Bring things back into the realm of the "sorta, kinda, maybe plausible" instead of "full blown Vulcans-are-space-elves fantasy".
Also, by this logic, one could argue anything. Well Star Trek isn't hard scifi so anything is possible! That could be used against the situations encountered in every show. One does not need to explicitly state every little thing, that's poor writing.
The rules were not every little thing.
The rules are simple: If your space magic works in one scenario, then explain why does it not work in a nearly identical scenario. It helps maintain verisimilitude. It shows the creators care about the work they are producing. This, in turn, helps build audience investment, so they buy your gimmicky funko pops.
Yes, other episodes of Trek use technobable to solve a plot. Then the writers forget that particular technobable exists the next time they encounter a similar situation. This is an ongoing criticism of Trek and IT NEEDS TO STOP. Trek needs to GET BETTER not mire itself in mediocrity.
About the Tilygun, I will admit that did not occur to me as a weapon against Leland. And without knowing technical stuffs, it seemed like it was designed to suck out some kind of organism, not nanites. That said, they probably could have made a version that would work on nanites, but were probably distracted by other things (like building the suit). As far as I know they weren't actually expecting to come face to face with Leland again.
You need to go back to Temporal Mechanics 101. It is impossible for there to not be an origin or the creation of its origin is itself.
Except in all the sci-fi plotlines where something ends up creating itself. Which is a lot of them. It's like Fry being his own grandfather in Futurama. He was always his own grandfather, meaning he had to be born to go back in time to do his grandmother to become his grandfather.
Actually, that is really easy to explain. The original Philip J. Fry had Enos and Mildred Fry as his biological grandparents, then he accidentally killed his grandfather and slept with his grandmother resulting in original Philip J. Fry being the next Philip J. Fry's grandfather. With each iteration of the temporal loop, Philip J. Fry has less and less of Enos Fry's DNA until there is no real difference between each iteration of Fry's DNA since 99.9999999999999% of Fry's paternal DNA comes from Mildred's DNA.
Can we not argue about what is canon for a comedy cartoon which is a satire of sci-fi and, let's be real here, doesn't care what is or isn't in continuity with itself? That way madness lies.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Picard:
It's like the chicken and the egg, Will, the chicken and the egg! We-we think it started in the past, but it didn't. It started right here, in the future! That's why it's getting larger in the past.
And this is the worst part of Season 2. There is absolutely no explanation how Burnham would know about the location of the USS Hiawatha or Terralysium or figure out the secret behind the Kelpiens, time crystals, and the power of Po without the Red Bursts. Burnham's mother as the cause of the Red Bursts would make more sense since she spent years in the future. Knowledge has to be learnt from somewhere and can't be created out of nothing
This is incorrect, and the whole reason why bootstrap paradox exists.
Its exactly the same as the TOS era movie "glasses paradox" where Bones gives Kirk a pair of glasses that Kirk takes back to the past and sells off, ultimately ensuring they are obtained by Bone in the future so he can give them to Kirk, so Kirk can take them back into the past and sell them. The glasses have no origin, they just exist in an endless paradox.
Doesn't change the fact that it is an extremely idiotic paradox. Everything must have an origin even if it is beyond our limited understanding.
The origin was probably information from the sphere data.
Actually, that is really easy to explain. The original Philip J. Fry had Enos and Mildred Fry as his biological grandparents, then he accidentally killed his grandfather and slept with his grandmother resulting in original Philip J. Fry being the next Philip J. Fry's grandfather. With each iteration of the temporal loop, Philip J. Fry has less and less of Enos Fry's DNA until there is no real difference between each iteration of Fry's DNA since 99.9999999999999% of Fry's paternal DNA comes from Mildred's DNA.
This is neither what happened on the show, or is what was stated to have happened on the show, and thus, wrong.
By that logic, nothing happens in the universe in a particular story unless it is on the show. Stories almost never show the man behind the curtain since it would lose the magic of the trick. The Bootstrap paradox only exists because we are only shown what the writer wants to show and not how the trick works. Fry needs to have originally existed with Enos and Mildred as his biological grandparents in order to be able to go back in time to kill and replace his grandfather. Otherwise, he would not have been able to go back in time and replace his grandfather since the virgin birth is more credible than Fry always being his grandfather.
And this is the worst part of Season 2. There is absolutely no explanation how Burnham would know about the location of the USS Hiawatha or Terralysium or figure out the secret behind the Kelpiens, time crystals, and the power of Po without the Red Bursts. Burnham's mother as the cause of the Red Bursts would make more sense since she spent years in the future. Knowledge has to be learnt from somewhere and can't be created out of nothing
This is incorrect, and the whole reason why bootstrap paradox exists.
Its exactly the same as the TOS era movie "glasses paradox" where Bones gives Kirk a pair of glasses that Kirk takes back to the past and sells off, ultimately ensuring they are obtained by Bone in the future so he can give them to Kirk, so Kirk can take them back into the past and sell them. The glasses have no origin, they just exist in an endless paradox.
Doesn't change the fact that it is an extremely idiotic paradox. Everything must have an origin even if it is beyond our limited understanding.
The origin was probably information from the sphere data.
Due to the massive amount of information within the sphere data, Discovery's crew would have to know where to look. No matter what, the Red Bursts have to be from a Burnham from a previous timeline in order for Burnham to acquire the appropriate information to create the Red Bursts in the right locations and the right time. The USS Hiawatha, Kaminar, and Boreth could have been figured out by researching the sphere data in a previous timeline while Xahea could have been figured out by talking with Tilly in a previous timeline. Terralysium would have required Burnham's mother due to Terralysium being destroyed in a previous timeline. However, there is no reason why the USS Discovery would realize that Jett Reno was important and necessary to the mission so it would require more than just needing look for the USS Hiawatha in a previous timeline.
Fry needs to have originally existed with Enos and Mildred as his biological grandparents in order to be able to go back in time to kill and replace his grandfather.
Nope, the whole point of it being a PARADOX is that it has no logical beginning or end, its just an endless circle.
Enos was never Fry's grandfather, and Fry was always his own grandfather, period. Same is true with Sela and the Iconians in STO, and Burnham's time loop in Discovery.
Paradoxes are just phenomenon that we can't understand with our limited understanding.
As far as Burnham's time loop goes, there was numerous timelines that Burnham's mother went through before there was a timeline that finally succeeded. The only way that Burnham would know where to go for her Red Bursts is if a Burnham from a previous timeline did the hard work of figuring out what was needed to stop Control and created the initial Red Bursts. Burnham did not create the Red Bursts, a Burnham from a previous timeline or Burnhams from previous timelines did. So one of them could have figured out where to get Time Crystals, while another one figured out the needed the evolved Kelpiens, while another one figured out they needed Jett Reno, while another one figured out they needed Po until there was enough Red Bursts to defeat Control.
It is the same plan that Noye used in Agents of Yesterday to try to win the Battle of Procyon V except that he was able to remember previous timelines while the Discovery had to rely on Red Bursts to figure it out. Bring in more and more allies and technology until you finally win.
So watched the episode, and all I can say is: Moving Discovery to a very distant future for the next season is the best thing they could've done! Then they can continue making a Star Trek I think is not super bad, but compared to all the other shows completely un-Trek like and boring. I think this is a total win/win situation for all. (keep in mind, this is MY personal opinion, not trying to make it yours as well!)
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,373Community Moderator
The question now is... what kind of Galaxy is Discovery in now? What is the state of the Federation? And what powers have come up as well?
The arrival of a 23rd Century starship is going to be interesting.
I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,373Community Moderator
Guess Saru's getting the Captain's Chair after all as the highest ranking officer. Unless they somehow come into contact with the 33rd Century Starfleet. Although why they'd keep a relic like a Crossfield in service when a shuttle might be able to overpower her...
Unless something happened which forces Discovery to go somewhere else.
Torpedo was blocking transport hence why they couldn't just beam it out into space...Trek trope number 189
Which Trek trope prevented them from sending in those R2D2 units to pull the manual release? Or tie a rope to it and pull it from the other side?
Or using those shuttles and landing pods as hangar pets in any other series besides Enterprise. Using those attack craft is something I expect from Star Wars not Star Trek.
The question now is... what kind of Galaxy is Discovery in now? What is the state of the Federation? And what powers have come up as well?
The arrival of a 23rd Century starship is going to be interesting.
If they end up in a future version of the Federation, then it is a ton of interviews by the Department of Temporal Investigations followed by years of training in Starfleet Academy to familiarize them with future technology and procedures if they want to be part of Starfleet instead of just as a historical repository of 23rd Century life. So the most exciting thing for Season 3 of Discovery if Season 3 is still about the USS Discovery is for it to end up as Voyager in the 28th Century or whenever they end up.
Torpedo was blocking transport hence why they couldn't just beam it out into space...Trek trope number 189
Which Trek trope prevented them from sending in those R2D2 units to pull the manual release? Or tie a rope to it and pull it from the other side?
Or using those shuttles and landing pods as hangar pets in any other series besides Enterprise. Using those attack craft is something I expect from Star Wars not Star Trek.
The question now is... what kind of Galaxy is Discovery in now? What is the state of the Federation? And what powers have come up as well?
The arrival of a 23rd Century starship is going to be interesting.
If they end up in a future version of the Federation, then it is a ton of interviews by the Department of Temporal Investigations followed by years of training in Starfleet Academy to familiarize them with future technology and procedures if they want to be part of Starfleet instead of just as a historical repository of 23rd Century life. So the most exciting thing for Season 3 of Discovery if Season 3 is still about the USS Discovery is for it to end up as Voyager in the 28th Century or whenever they end up.
DS9: The Jem'Hadar; By Inferno's Light; the entire Dominion War. All of these included Runabouts or Peregrine fighters (which were converted courier ships like the Maquis's, which were about the same size as Runabouts) being used as combat craft alongside or in support of larger starships. That's before getting into the fact that using the shuttles to increase Disco and Enterprise's firepower against a superior force makes tactical sense.
The jump into the far future kinda scares me, though. I am not sure I am ready to deal with a big jump like that. Or the writers are.
But the beauty is that they didn't even show the Discovery arriving. So they really have a lot of freedom what to do next.
Of course, they might underestimate what "canon" already exists about the future - the stupid Temporal Starfleet stuff from VOY and ENT for example. I really wish that never happened. I think focusing on space exploration and keeping time travel limited works better. I like the occassional time travel paradox and story,b ut having an entire organization built around it. That's something that might work better for Doctor Who or some show like that.
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Torpedo was blocking transport hence why they couldn't just beam it out into space...Trek trope number 189
Which Trek trope prevented them from sending in those R2D2 units to pull the manual release? Or tie a rope to it and pull it from the other side?
Or using those shuttles and landing pods as hangar pets in any other series besides Enterprise. Using those attack craft is something I expect from Star Wars not Star Trek.
The question now is... what kind of Galaxy is Discovery in now? What is the state of the Federation? And what powers have come up as well?
The arrival of a 23rd Century starship is going to be interesting.
If they end up in a future version of the Federation, then it is a ton of interviews by the Department of Temporal Investigations followed by years of training in Starfleet Academy to familiarize them with future technology and procedures if they want to be part of Starfleet instead of just as a historical repository of 23rd Century life. So the most exciting thing for Season 3 of Discovery if Season 3 is still about the USS Discovery is for it to end up as Voyager in the 28th Century or whenever they end up.
DS9: The Jem'Hadar; By Inferno's Light; the entire Dominion War. All of these included Runabouts or Peregrine fighters (which were converted courier ships like the Maquis's, which were about the same size as Runabouts) being used as combat craft alongside or in support of larger starships.
Those occasions are exceptions, generally speaking Trek combat does not typically involve fighter squadrons or shuttles being used as combat craft. There's also the glaring issue of where the frak did they have all of those craft stored!? Neither ship has a shuttle bay large enough for so many shuttles and pods. I would have enjoyed it a lot more if they had stuck with just capital ships on both sides, would have felt much more like Star Trek rather than Star Wars.
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,373Community Moderator
The jump into the far future kinda scares me, though. I am not sure I am ready to deal with a big jump like that. Or the writers are.
But the beauty is that they didn't even show the Discovery arriving. So they really have a lot of freedom what to do next.
Of course, they might underestimate what "canon" already exists about the future - the stupid Temporal Starfleet stuff from VOY and ENT for example. I really wish that never happened. I think focusing on space exploration and keeping time travel limited works better. I like the occassional time travel paradox and story,b ut having an entire organization built around it. That's something that might work better for Doctor Who or some show like that.
Jumping into a time period we have little to know knowledge of opens the door for stories that won't conflict with established canon, as some people here have LOVED to rant and rave about despite no actual knowledge of what happened during that part of the 23rd Century. We have a wide open galaxy, a still functional Spore Drive that happens to be the ONLY one in existance, and basically a clean slate.
As for the Temporal tech from the 29th Century... if you think about it Starfleet HAD to develop temporal tech in order to protect itself from forces that have similar tech. Its no different than any other arms race. In order to ensure their survival against an enemy that can disrupt their own development in the past, the Federation had to develop the capability as a counter. The sense I got though for the most part is that Starfleet doesn't actually jump through time unless it has to. And usually does everything it can to avoid detection by local powers, including the past Starfleet. Temporal Prime Directive sort of thing.
Before anyone points out the Narada... Prime history recorded she just vanished without a trace. The development of the Kelvin Timeline is no different really than Sela's existance. Both are the product of a branched timeline. Neither event threatened the existance of the Federation, so Future Starfleet let it go.
There's also the glaring issue of where the frak did they have all of those craft stored!? Neither ship has a shuttle bay large enough for so many shuttles and pods. I would have enjoyed it a lot more if they had stuck with just capital ships on both sides, would have felt much more like Star Trek rather than Star Wars.
I guess the writers tried and succeeded in outdoing the shuttle-to-ship-size ratio errors from the Kelvin Timeline movies.
"-JJ Abrams: The Enterprise changes sizes depending on how big I want the shuttle bay to be for cool shots!
-DSC production: Oh yeah? Well, ours can store many dozens of shuttles and tactical pods out of subspace/hammerspace/BSspace to make a cool space fight scene!"
One thing they could have done is to put on those shuttles every single person knowing about Discovery, her crew, the spore drive and the fall-girl of the Klingon-Fed war, so there would be a good reason why nobody would know about them in the next couples of centuries and for the plans of the Federation to un-person them to succeed in a kinda plausible way.
Seriously, how are they gonna explain that other stupidity?
Before anyone points out the Narada... Prime history recorded she just vanished without a trace. The development of the Kelvin Timeline is no different really than Sela's existance. Both are the product of a branched timeline. Neither event threatened the existance of the Federation, so Future Starfleet let it go.
Sela is not the result of a branched timeline. Her mother is from a previous timeline that was erased to restore the timeline to what we know. There might have not been a Future Starfleet to care about being wiped from existence.
The Narada calls into question the nature of time travel in Star Trek since all time travel before Star Trek 2009 required fixing the past to restore the timeline. There is nothing special about the time travel used in Star Trek 2009. Either a new timeline is created every time that the past is changed or the protagonists need to go back in time to protect the present. If a new timeline is created every time someone changes the past, then there is no need for future Starfleet to protect the past.
So there was no need for Spock and Kirk to stop Bones in the 1930s or Picard to go back in time to stop the Borg from assimilating the Earth in the 21st Century. The only time it was necessary to travel to the past was to pick up some whales from the 1980s.
Comments
You are completely missing the point. I'm not saying you were talking about the bots when you told someone to go re-watch. The point is on the one hand you shoot down someone's point about saving Cornwell because there was no intra-ship beaming in TOS, then you turn right around and talk about something else that was also NOT in TOS, but was seen in last night's episode.
If they can add one thing not seen in TOS, they also could have added the other (if they wanted to). So it really has nothing to do with whether something was in TOS or not.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
Since it is all made up gobblety-g0ok, the writer does, in fact, need to say why a plot device from a previous episode will not work as a plot device in this episode.
Cornwell's death genuinely made me sad, I liked her and she went out like a badass hero.
Canon synched up enough for my taste, though I am curious about the where/when/how of the Section 31 spinoff.
Michelle Yeoh stole the show, again, she remains the best thing about DSC. Her giggling while Leland was screaming his nanites out gave me life. Her series is going to rock.
Also Reno, she needs to be a regular, or whatever their equivalent of a regular is since they for some reason only put like 5 names in the opening credits despite other characters appearing just as much.
The battle was great, it looked great and phaser beams! My god how I've missed phaser beams since the reboot turned them into pewpews. I'm glad we've debooted back to the Primeverse. Apparently contrary to popular opinion I was very happy for an hour of constant space battle. It wasn't quite a DS9 battle scene but it most definitely satisfied.
Fortunately this episode will have put to rest the argument that this series was secretly Kelvinverse.
Compared to the first half of season one which was abysmal this show has come such a long way. But then half of the shows have cursed first seasons (looking at you TNG and VOY)
Sela is the creation of time travel so there was a timeline where Sela didn't go back in time and attack the Iconians because she didn't exist in that timeline.
You need to go back to Temporal Mechanics 101. It is impossible for there to not be an origin or the creation of its origin is itself. It is only a character's limited understanding of the temporal loop that creates the illusion of the Bootstrap paradox. Anyone with a Fourth Dimensional understanding of the universe knows that the Bootstrap Paradox doesn't exist and is only an issue for people with a Three Dimensional understanding of the universe.
There always has to be an initial timeline that creates the temporal loop. The illusion of the Bootstrap paradox simply requires an object creating a temporal loop where a person with limited understanding of temporal mechanics doesn't know the origin of the object. If an object from the future is sent back in time to create a temporal loop, then there is a previous timeline where the temporal loop never existed since the temporal loop and the origin of the object can't exist in the same timeline.
If that makes any sense. Timeline Future, Personal Past.
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
In the immortal words of Miles Edward O'Brien...
"I hate temporal mechanics!"
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
Energy is finite. Stuff needs energy to do work. Put some limits on the space magic. Bring things back into the realm of the "sorta, kinda, maybe plausible" instead of "full blown Vulcans-are-space-elves fantasy".
The rules were not every little thing.
The rules are simple: If your space magic works in one scenario, then explain why does it not work in a nearly identical scenario. It helps maintain verisimilitude. It shows the creators care about the work they are producing. This, in turn, helps build audience investment, so they buy your gimmicky funko pops.
Yes, other episodes of Trek use technobable to solve a plot. Then the writers forget that particular technobable exists the next time they encounter a similar situation. This is an ongoing criticism of Trek and IT NEEDS TO STOP. Trek needs to GET BETTER not mire itself in mediocrity.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
Actually, that is really easy to explain. The original Philip J. Fry had Enos and Mildred Fry as his biological grandparents, then he accidentally killed his grandfather and slept with his grandmother resulting in original Philip J. Fry being the next Philip J. Fry's grandfather. With each iteration of the temporal loop, Philip J. Fry has less and less of Enos Fry's DNA until there is no real difference between each iteration of Fry's DNA since 99.9999999999999% of Fry's paternal DNA comes from Mildred's DNA.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
It's like the chicken and the egg, Will, the chicken and the egg! We-we think it started in the past, but it didn't. It started right here, in the future! That's why it's getting larger in the past.
By that logic, nothing happens in the universe in a particular story unless it is on the show. Stories almost never show the man behind the curtain since it would lose the magic of the trick. The Bootstrap paradox only exists because we are only shown what the writer wants to show and not how the trick works. Fry needs to have originally existed with Enos and Mildred as his biological grandparents in order to be able to go back in time to kill and replace his grandfather. Otherwise, he would not have been able to go back in time and replace his grandfather since the virgin birth is more credible than Fry always being his grandfather.
Due to the massive amount of information within the sphere data, Discovery's crew would have to know where to look. No matter what, the Red Bursts have to be from a Burnham from a previous timeline in order for Burnham to acquire the appropriate information to create the Red Bursts in the right locations and the right time. The USS Hiawatha, Kaminar, and Boreth could have been figured out by researching the sphere data in a previous timeline while Xahea could have been figured out by talking with Tilly in a previous timeline. Terralysium would have required Burnham's mother due to Terralysium being destroyed in a previous timeline. However, there is no reason why the USS Discovery would realize that Jett Reno was important and necessary to the mission so it would require more than just needing look for the USS Hiawatha in a previous timeline.
Paradoxes are just phenomenon that we can't understand with our limited understanding.
As far as Burnham's time loop goes, there was numerous timelines that Burnham's mother went through before there was a timeline that finally succeeded. The only way that Burnham would know where to go for her Red Bursts is if a Burnham from a previous timeline did the hard work of figuring out what was needed to stop Control and created the initial Red Bursts. Burnham did not create the Red Bursts, a Burnham from a previous timeline or Burnhams from previous timelines did. So one of them could have figured out where to get Time Crystals, while another one figured out the needed the evolved Kelpiens, while another one figured out they needed Jett Reno, while another one figured out they needed Po until there was enough Red Bursts to defeat Control.
It is the same plan that Noye used in Agents of Yesterday to try to win the Battle of Procyon V except that he was able to remember previous timelines while the Discovery had to rely on Red Bursts to figure it out. Bring in more and more allies and technology until you finally win.
The arrival of a 23rd Century starship is going to be interesting.
Unless something happened which forces Discovery to go somewhere else.
Or using those shuttles and landing pods as hangar pets in any other series besides Enterprise. Using those attack craft is something I expect from Star Wars not Star Trek.
If they end up in a future version of the Federation, then it is a ton of interviews by the Department of Temporal Investigations followed by years of training in Starfleet Academy to familiarize them with future technology and procedures if they want to be part of Starfleet instead of just as a historical repository of 23rd Century life. So the most exciting thing for Season 3 of Discovery if Season 3 is still about the USS Discovery is for it to end up as Voyager in the 28th Century or whenever they end up.
DS9: The Jem'Hadar; By Inferno's Light; the entire Dominion War. All of these included Runabouts or Peregrine fighters (which were converted courier ships like the Maquis's, which were about the same size as Runabouts) being used as combat craft alongside or in support of larger starships. That's before getting into the fact that using the shuttles to increase Disco and Enterprise's firepower against a superior force makes tactical sense.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
But the beauty is that they didn't even show the Discovery arriving. So they really have a lot of freedom what to do next.
Of course, they might underestimate what "canon" already exists about the future - the stupid Temporal Starfleet stuff from VOY and ENT for example. I really wish that never happened. I think focusing on space exploration and keeping time travel limited works better. I like the occassional time travel paradox and story,b ut having an entire organization built around it. That's something that might work better for Doctor Who or some show like that.
Jumping into a time period we have little to know knowledge of opens the door for stories that won't conflict with established canon, as some people here have LOVED to rant and rave about despite no actual knowledge of what happened during that part of the 23rd Century. We have a wide open galaxy, a still functional Spore Drive that happens to be the ONLY one in existance, and basically a clean slate.
As for the Temporal tech from the 29th Century... if you think about it Starfleet HAD to develop temporal tech in order to protect itself from forces that have similar tech. Its no different than any other arms race. In order to ensure their survival against an enemy that can disrupt their own development in the past, the Federation had to develop the capability as a counter. The sense I got though for the most part is that Starfleet doesn't actually jump through time unless it has to. And usually does everything it can to avoid detection by local powers, including the past Starfleet. Temporal Prime Directive sort of thing.
Before anyone points out the Narada... Prime history recorded she just vanished without a trace. The development of the Kelvin Timeline is no different really than Sela's existance. Both are the product of a branched timeline. Neither event threatened the existance of the Federation, so Future Starfleet let it go.
"-JJ Abrams: The Enterprise changes sizes depending on how big I want the shuttle bay to be for cool shots!
-DSC production: Oh yeah? Well, ours can store many dozens of shuttles and tactical pods out of subspace/hammerspace/BSspace to make a cool space fight scene!"
One thing they could have done is to put on those shuttles every single person knowing about Discovery, her crew, the spore drive and the fall-girl of the Klingon-Fed war, so there would be a good reason why nobody would know about them in the next couples of centuries and for the plans of the Federation to un-person them to succeed in a kinda plausible way.
Seriously, how are they gonna explain that other stupidity?
Sela is not the result of a branched timeline. Her mother is from a previous timeline that was erased to restore the timeline to what we know. There might have not been a Future Starfleet to care about being wiped from existence.
The Narada calls into question the nature of time travel in Star Trek since all time travel before Star Trek 2009 required fixing the past to restore the timeline. There is nothing special about the time travel used in Star Trek 2009. Either a new timeline is created every time that the past is changed or the protagonists need to go back in time to protect the present. If a new timeline is created every time someone changes the past, then there is no need for future Starfleet to protect the past.
So there was no need for Spock and Kirk to stop Bones in the 1930s or Picard to go back in time to stop the Borg from assimilating the Earth in the 21st Century. The only time it was necessary to travel to the past was to pick up some whales from the 1980s.