Once again, we are talking about something fake. If they had decided to give Pike a robot body in TOS it would have been no more right or wrong than putting him in a chair. Its not some factual matter of delta radiation = chair. Its (any kind of accident) = (any kind of result the writers want that day).
What do you mean fake?
You're fooling yourself. We all know it's a documentary!
The funny part is that I'm agreeing with you, just not in terms that you're willing to accept.
EDIT:
For clarification, apparently not in terms you are willing to accept. I don't want to be the guy who claims dominion over your motivations.
Of course, there is another possibility, though it doesn't quite fit with McCoy's comment on Pike's situation - Pike refused to get the same thing done as Airam. For religious reason, or because he never wanted to be AI-corruptible... Though I would say that motiviation would be decided by Discovery, in The Menagerie there was clearly no such motivation behind it.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Of course, there is another possibility, though it doesn't quite fit with McCoy's comment on Pike's situation - Pike refused to get the same thing done as Airam. For religious reason, or because he never wanted to be AI-corruptible... Though I would say that motiviation would be decided by Discovery, in The Menagerie there was clearly no such motivation behind it.
Now that is a truly brilliant theory. I can't believe no one thought of that before.
The Project Daedalus episode confirms that Burnham is the most important character in Discovery with Airiam saying "Everything is because of you" just before she is sent out of the airlock and dies.
So I guess we can blame everything on Burnham, the Borg attacking Earth, the Dominion War, Voyager being sent to the Delta Quadrant, the Xindi attack, etc.
And because this is fiction, the anyone can come up with any hypothetical reason why one of them could become a cyborg and the other couldn't.
It is not the job of the audience to write the story or create the world that the characters live in. We see Pike in just a few years being trapped in his own body. We have sympathy for this character. When he is given a modicum of relief from his hellish existence, we feel satisfaction. Pike has claimed a measure of peace and even dignity.
Then, we see someone who had the majority of their body reconstructed after a shuttle accident. She becomes almost entirely artificial. We see her living a normal life and even continues to serve in Starfleet.
Pike's horrible existence is a plot point. Airiam's cybernetic existence is a plot point. Naturally, the audience is going to wonder... "uh, what happened here?". It is up to the WRITER to answer these questions, since the WRITER brought them to our attention by making it A PLOT POINT in both cases.
so instead of answering the point you decide to faff about instead? why are you replying for exactly?
So, you have no real position or argument (which I have pointed out in the past in other threads) so you say nothing. At least you are consistent.
You said "all these people were injured". Ok. So? Both Pike and Airiam have debilitating injuries. Airiam gets a new body and is free to live her life and continue serving in Starfleet. Pike suffers a debilitating injury and becomes an empty shell trapped in his wheelchair and is only allowed a tiny modicum of relief when he begins living a "fantasy" on an alien world. The fact that Pike's existence was a living nightmare is even a factor in Spock's trial.
The entire thing is called into question; why was Pike forced to exist in a living hell when the technology existed to allow him to live a relatively normal life?
As soon as you go down this road, ALL CONVERSATIONS END. ALL OF THEM. None of the characters in ANY FICTION exist. So, debating events that never happened or words that were never spoken becomes POINTLESS.
The only way you can introduce the "it's all imaginary" concept into a conversation about fictional works is when you inject your own preferences and prejudices as arbitrary limits. For instance, if you do not care that Star Trek: Discovery looks nothing like the original Star Trek series, you will dismiss criticism based on that fact. "Klingons are not real; so so stop complaining about how they changed their appearance".
If you continue with "it's all fake" as a rebuttal, I'm going to ignore you.
Respectfully... I think both of you need to take a step back and get some fresh air. You're sniping at each other. Go take a break for a bit.
Oh? What comments did I make that gave you that impression? I know it wasn't the fresh air thing, since you just said the same thing yourself. So what was it?
Just saying that maybe you should before it escalates any higher.
Seriously though, which of my comments were the "sniping at each other" you were referring to? Like I said, I know it wasn't the exact same phrase you used, so it had to be something else. And no, I'm not upset at you in any way. I genuinely want to know.
The back and forth with the repeated use of the word "fake". While it might not be viewed as antagonistic on purpose, it could be viewed, and is apparently being viewed by the other guy, as "I don't care what you say". And thus him going after you could drive you to start reacting defensively, which in turn might go into a constant back and forth that may escalate into a flame war.
Would be better to step away and let things cool off before that happens IMO. Its also kinda derailing this thread. I'm no mod, but its only a matter of time before someone summons one if it continues.
Both of you seem to accept that the debate is centered around something that isn't actually real, however both sides have differing viewpoints on said subject. Even in regards to works of fiction, that can lead to fights.
The back and forth with the repeated use of the word "fake". While it might not be viewed as antagonistic on purpose, it could be viewed, and is apparently being viewed by the other guy, as "I don't care what you say". And thus him going after you could drive you to start reacting defensively, which in turn might go into a constant back and forth that may escalate into a flame war.
Would be better to step away and let things cool off before that happens IMO. Its also kinda derailing this thread. I'm no mod, but its only a matter of time before someone summons one if it continues.
Both of you seem to accept that the debate is centered around something that isn't actually real, however both sides have differing viewpoints on said subject. Even in regards to works of fiction, that can lead to fights.
Huh. You seem to be seeing something I never said or assuming something I never meant. Pretty strange way of thinking.
I've ended up going nuclear trying to mediate before, so I have a bit of a stress problem. Also... its not just people on the internet doing certain things, its sometimes just RL stuff.
I've ended up going nuclear trying to mediate before, so I have a bit of a stress problem. Also... its not just people on the internet doing certain things, its sometimes just RL stuff.
Don't bother. It's not worth issues in RL for internet ones. You're not a moderator, you're under no obligation to mediate. Either let people burn themselves out or summon an actual moderator, don't fuss yourself.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Of course, there is another possibility, though it doesn't quite fit with McCoy's comment on Pike's situation - Pike refused to get the same thing done as Airam. For religious reason, or because he never wanted to be AI-corruptible... Though I would say that motiviation would be decided by Discovery, in The Menagerie there was clearly no such motivation behind it.
Now that is a truly brilliant theory. I can't believe no one thought of that before.
Dancing around the bush? you have something to say on the matter quite clearly. whenever you are ready of course.
so instead of answering the point you decide to faff about instead? why are you replying for exactly?
So, you have no real position or argument (which I have pointed out in the past in other threads) so you say nothing. At least you are consistent.
flaming for no reason, at least that proves my point about your casual lack of interest to respect other users. you started this mess which i have absolutely zero interest in getting into. now the point:
You said "all these people were injured". Ok. So? Both Pike and Airiam have debilitating injuries. Airiam gets a new body and is free to live her life and continue serving in Starfleet. Pike suffers a debilitating injury and becomes an empty shell trapped in his wheelchair and is only allowed a tiny modicum of relief when he begins living a "fantasy" on an alien world. The fact that Pike's existence was a living nightmare is even a factor in Spock's trial.
The entire thing is called into question; why was Pike forced to exist in a living hell when the technology existed to allow him to live a relatively normal life?
i already said this before, different injuries, different technologies, heck even different doctors and what they can do. have you even been paying attention?
T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW. Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
The back and forth with the repeated use of the word "fake". While it might not be viewed as antagonistic on purpose, it could be viewed, and is apparently being viewed by the other guy, as "I don't care what you say". And thus him going after you could drive you to start reacting defensively, which in turn might go into a constant back and forth that may escalate into a flame war.
Would be better to step away and let things cool off before that happens IMO. Its also kinda derailing this thread. I'm no mod, but its only a matter of time before someone summons one if it continues.
Both of you seem to accept that the debate is centered around something that isn't actually real, however both sides have differing viewpoints on said subject. Even in regards to works of fiction, that can lead to fights.
yeah.. whenever these two get off their high horse and debate this, i'm waiting until then...
T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW. Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
You said "all these people were injured". Ok. So? Both Pike and Airiam have debilitating injuries. Airiam gets a new body and is free to live her life and continue serving in Starfleet. Pike suffers a debilitating injury and becomes an empty shell trapped in his wheelchair and is only allowed a tiny modicum of relief when he begins living a "fantasy" on an alien world. The fact that Pike's existence was a living nightmare is even a factor in Spock's trial.
The entire thing is called into question; why was Pike forced to exist in a living hell when the technology existed to allow him to live a relatively normal life?
i already said this before, different injuries, different technologies, heck even different doctors and what they can do. have you even been paying attention?
There is only three reasons why Pike would not undergo the same operation that Airiam went through, personal or religious beliefs, body incompatible with operation, or the Federation becomes technophobic towards AI, cybernetics, and holograms. The Federation already discriminates against genetically engineered life. So why not one more discrimination?
There is only three reasons why Pike would not undergo the same operation that Airiam went through, personal or religious beliefs, body incompatible with operation, or the Federation becomes technophobic towards AI, cybernetics, and holograms. The Federation already discriminates against genetically engineered life. So why not one more discrimination?
I think it safe to say we know the Federation doesn't become too technophobic otherwise Geordi would not have had a visor or optical implants nor Picard an artificial heart.
TNG is over a century after Discovery. If you look at Keyla Detmer's eye it looks extremely similar to the artificial eyes that Geordi had in First Contact. The EMHs were only forced to work in the mines when they became obsolete while Data and the Doctor had such a hard time in being recognized as sapient individuals. The Federation is extremely discriminatory towards genetically engineered individuals, AIs, and cybernetically enhanced individuals even in the late 24th Century.
Rather large difference between eye implants and artificial heart and a full on android.
But is a person with a pacemaker, artificial arm, or an artificial hip, cybernetically enhanced? It could be argued that Geordi only has cybernetically enhanced eyesight in First Contact and not TNG since the only cybernetics that Geordi has is not the VISOR, but those 2 red bumps on his head. Picard is not cybernetically enhanced since he just has his artificial heart. However, there is a large difference between cybernetic augmentations and artificial limbs or heart.
I think the biggest issue would be "can this part take control of a person's mind"? A person's arm might start moving against their will, but they would still KNOW it's happening and be able to ask for help. But if an implant could take control of a person's mind and turn them into a spy or assassin against their will (in which case they could not ask for help), that' a whole different ball game.
So I think the big thing would not be whether we're talking about a heart, or an arm, or even an eye, but whether this is so tied into their brain that it could take control of their thinking.
I think the biggest issue would be "can this part take control of a person's mind"? A person's arm might start moving against their will, but they would still KNOW it's happening and be able to ask for help. But if an implant could take control of a person's mind and turn them into a spy or assassin against their will (in which case they could not ask for help), that' a whole different ball game.
So I think the big thing would not be whether we're talking about a heart, or an arm, or even an eye, but whether this is so tied into their brain that it could take control of their thinking.
And that is precisely what happened with Geordi. Instead of developing proper security technology for neural cybernetics, the Federation apparently stopped all cybernetic development so neural interface security was abysmal in the 24th Century.
> @somtaawkhar said: > Theory time. > > The reason why the Red Angel saved the people of that Church and took them to Terralysium is because they go on to become Craft's ancestors, and Craft, his wife, and his daughter, are in fact Burnham, and Burnham's parents. > > Jacob is probably Burnham's ancestor.
Yeah, because two Black people in the entire universe must be related...
> @redvenge said: > shadowfang240 wrote: » > > so, something else of interest...apparently in star trek, plasma reactors - at least ones fueled by deuterium - put out SIGNIFICANTLY more energy than M/AM reactors - aka warp cores > > so why are races not using that for warp travel and primary ship power instead? > > > > I got a better question. Why does Airiam get a brand new cyborg body after her accident and when Pike has his accident, he gets a busted wheelchair with a blinking light? > > And I thought our Department of Veteran's Affairs was terrible.
I assumed it because Pike is paralysed and Airium isn’t, Airium is like Darth Vader badly burned and lost most of her limbs, but still able to move, Pike isn’t also the Delta Radiaition seems to have given him a degenerative disease.
Comments
What do you mean fake?
You're fooling yourself. We all know it's a documentary!
The funny part is that I'm agreeing with you, just not in terms that you're willing to accept.
EDIT:
For clarification, apparently not in terms you are willing to accept. I don't want to be the guy who claims dominion over your motivations.
Now that is a truly brilliant theory. I can't believe no one thought of that before.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
So I guess we can blame everything on Burnham, the Borg attacking Earth, the Dominion War, Voyager being sent to the Delta Quadrant, the Xindi attack, etc.
Then, we see someone who had the majority of their body reconstructed after a shuttle accident. She becomes almost entirely artificial. We see her living a normal life and even continues to serve in Starfleet.
Pike's horrible existence is a plot point. Airiam's cybernetic existence is a plot point. Naturally, the audience is going to wonder... "uh, what happened here?". It is up to the WRITER to answer these questions, since the WRITER brought them to our attention by making it A PLOT POINT in both cases.
So, you have no real position or argument (which I have pointed out in the past in other threads) so you say nothing. At least you are consistent.
You said "all these people were injured". Ok. So? Both Pike and Airiam have debilitating injuries. Airiam gets a new body and is free to live her life and continue serving in Starfleet. Pike suffers a debilitating injury and becomes an empty shell trapped in his wheelchair and is only allowed a tiny modicum of relief when he begins living a "fantasy" on an alien world. The fact that Pike's existence was a living nightmare is even a factor in Spock's trial.
The entire thing is called into question; why was Pike forced to exist in a living hell when the technology existed to allow him to live a relatively normal life? ALL FICTION IS FAKE
As soon as you go down this road, ALL CONVERSATIONS END. ALL OF THEM. None of the characters in ANY FICTION exist. So, debating events that never happened or words that were never spoken becomes POINTLESS.
The only way you can introduce the "it's all imaginary" concept into a conversation about fictional works is when you inject your own preferences and prejudices as arbitrary limits. For instance, if you do not care that Star Trek: Discovery looks nothing like the original Star Trek series, you will dismiss criticism based on that fact. "Klingons are not real; so so stop complaining about how they changed their appearance".
If you continue with "it's all fake" as a rebuttal, I'm going to ignore you.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
Oh? What comments did I make that gave you that impression? I know it wasn't the fresh air thing, since you just said the same thing yourself. So what was it?
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
Seriously though, which of my comments were the "sniping at each other" you were referring to? Like I said, I know it wasn't the exact same phrase you used, so it had to be something else. And no, I'm not upset at you in any way. I genuinely want to know.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
Would be better to step away and let things cool off before that happens IMO. Its also kinda derailing this thread. I'm no mod, but its only a matter of time before someone summons one if it continues.
Both of you seem to accept that the debate is centered around something that isn't actually real, however both sides have differing viewpoints on said subject. Even in regards to works of fiction, that can lead to fights.
Huh. You seem to be seeing something I never said or assuming something I never meant. Pretty strange way of thinking.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
If I'm wrong in this case, I'll be glad to be wrong. I just don't want to be right.
Oh, you were projecting; I understand now. Don't worry, I've gotten past the phase in my life where I let the internet upset me
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
Don't bother. It's not worth issues in RL for internet ones. You're not a moderator, you're under no obligation to mediate. Either let people burn themselves out or summon an actual moderator, don't fuss yourself.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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Dancing around the bush? you have something to say on the matter quite clearly. whenever you are ready of course.
flaming for no reason, at least that proves my point about your casual lack of interest to respect other users. you started this mess which i have absolutely zero interest in getting into. now the point:
i already said this before, different injuries, different technologies, heck even different doctors and what they can do. have you even been paying attention?
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
yeah.. whenever these two get off their high horse and debate this, i'm waiting until then...
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
There is only three reasons why Pike would not undergo the same operation that Airiam went through, personal or religious beliefs, body incompatible with operation, or the Federation becomes technophobic towards AI, cybernetics, and holograms. The Federation already discriminates against genetically engineered life. So why not one more discrimination?
What?
Neither of the people in this supposed argument have even replied to each other for 2 days. You are talking about a dead issue at this point.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
TNG is over a century after Discovery. If you look at Keyla Detmer's eye it looks extremely similar to the artificial eyes that Geordi had in First Contact. The EMHs were only forced to work in the mines when they became obsolete while Data and the Doctor had such a hard time in being recognized as sapient individuals. The Federation is extremely discriminatory towards genetically engineered individuals, AIs, and cybernetically enhanced individuals even in the late 24th Century.
But is a person with a pacemaker, artificial arm, or an artificial hip, cybernetically enhanced? It could be argued that Geordi only has cybernetically enhanced eyesight in First Contact and not TNG since the only cybernetics that Geordi has is not the VISOR, but those 2 red bumps on his head. Picard is not cybernetically enhanced since he just has his artificial heart. However, there is a large difference between cybernetic augmentations and artificial limbs or heart.
So I think the big thing would not be whether we're talking about a heart, or an arm, or even an eye, but whether this is so tied into their brain that it could take control of their thinking.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
And that is precisely what happened with Geordi. Instead of developing proper security technology for neural cybernetics, the Federation apparently stopped all cybernetic development so neural interface security was abysmal in the 24th Century.
I'd rather it would have been an Iconian.
<_<
>_>
*goes back to sleep*
> Theory time.
>
> The reason why the Red Angel saved the people of that Church and took them to Terralysium is because they go on to become Craft's ancestors, and Craft, his wife, and his daughter, are in fact Burnham, and Burnham's parents.
>
> Jacob is probably Burnham's ancestor.
Yeah, because two Black people in the entire universe must be related...
> shadowfang240 wrote: »
>
> so, something else of interest...apparently in star trek, plasma reactors - at least ones fueled by deuterium - put out SIGNIFICANTLY more energy than M/AM reactors - aka warp cores
>
> so why are races not using that for warp travel and primary ship power instead?
>
>
>
> I got a better question. Why does Airiam get a brand new cyborg body after her accident and when Pike has his accident, he gets a busted wheelchair with a blinking light?
>
> And I thought our Department of Veteran's Affairs was terrible.
I assumed it because Pike is paralysed and Airium isn’t, Airium is like Darth Vader badly burned and lost most of her limbs, but still able to move, Pike isn’t also the Delta Radiaition seems to have given him a degenerative disease.