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Forums > Home› Star Trek Online General Discussion

Why Do Folk Play Up?

lapprenticellapprenticel Member Posts: 254 Arc User
edited September 2023 in Star Trek Online General Discussion
Had an Endeavour quest to do 3x Iconian TFOs so queued for Basic - I wanted a quick match, and the toon I was using probably needs some upgrades. Nothing popped, so I added Adv as well, and that popped shortly after.

Those I matched with should have stuck with Basic!!! The initial section is timed and has 2 parts. They failed to even complete the first part in the time limit. Come to the final boss battle - yes they eventually got there, and again failed the time limit. I would have preferred to play Basic but people didn't queue for that. Because the match took so long it became unviable to complete the Endeavour quest.

:(
Post edited by baddmoonrizin on
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Comments

  • peterconnorfirstpeterconnorfirst Member Posts: 6,225 Arc User
    edited March 2019
    The way I see it there seem to be some endeavors better suited as personal which are global at the moment and vice versa. Play PvE type X is something I would find more reasonable if it were global.

    In any case I noticed slow popping maps even in a day and age of the rtfo mechanic too. The bulk of players who cared are likely T6 in all reps already and the rest does likely … well not care.
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  • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 9,427 Arc User
    Since they removed the fail conditions, there is abssolutely no reason for anyone to ever play Normal except for those queues that have no Advanced version. The Advanced is the exact same mission with better rewards.
  • littlesarbonnlittlesarbonn Member Posts: 486 Arc User
    warpangel wrote: »
    Since they removed the fail conditions, there is abssolutely no reason for anyone to ever play Normal except for those queues that have no Advanced version. The Advanced is the exact same mission with better rewards.

    I do play normal, mostly when I just want a mission to have some fun in (slaughtering everything quickly), or when I want to run a mission that I don't know well, so I don't antagonize players who are used to Advanced queues. I will then start doing advanced queues on that type of mission cause I know I can handle it.

    The problem I perceive in this thread is one that doesn't get a lot of thought, and that's that a lot of people choose advanced random, and you might end up with people who feel they can handle advanced but have no idea what every mission is. I did that a few times where I was with a group choosing advanced random, and I'd get into a mission, thinking, wow, I have no idea what's going on here, but I was able to handle it because I can pew pew with the best of them.
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  • postagepaidpostagepaid Member Posts: 2,899 Arc User
    OP nailed the answer in their question by saying "I wanted a quick match" People don't want to wait for ages for a queue so they go for the popular option.

    Not really any different from the muppets in wow who would queue randoms as tank or healer then insist they DPS'd due to lack of gear or other excuse.

    It's an issue that will always be in the game and certainly won't be helped by having personal endeavours pushing the TFO's where they should be pushing PERSONAL endeavours that can be done personally not as part of a group. The endeavour rewards also encourage to aim high because why waste ages doing basic TFO's for a pitiful 5 green R&D trashboxes or scraps of ec when you could at least do an advanced with the dil conversion potential from elite marks.

    The endeavour system is another of the things put into the game that is an ok idea on paper but the implementation is just lacking, from what people are being asked to do to what rewards people might find to be actually rewarding instead of flooding the exchange with more R&D mats than will ever get used in the lifetime of the game (and shooting yourself in the foot for the R&D ship gambling)
  • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 9,427 Arc User
    reyan01 wrote: »
    warpangel wrote: »
    Since they removed the fail conditions, there is abssolutely no reason for anyone to ever play Normal except for those queues that have no Advanced version. The Advanced is the exact same mission with better rewards.

    I don't know - Advanced is, in most cases, a little more difficult in terms of gameplay and the type of player this thread was created to discuss will likely find themselves exploding more frequently. But therein lays the point; that sort of player won't care.
    If by "more difficult," you mean "takes longer," then yes.

    Because simply buffing the enemy stats a bit doesn't change much of anything challenge-wise when you have unlimited respawns and missions that are impossible to lose. The inevitable victory might just take a bit longer, in those cases where there isn't an auto-win timer.
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,231 Arc User
    patrickngo wrote: »
    fact is, without a prerequisite, players will queue for the best paying content they can reliably access. If Elites suddenly started dumping out massive reward stacks, you'd see thousands of ungeared, unprepared players flooding Elites.
    Pretty sure Cryptic canned prereqs because they were a formality. You don't NEED to know how your team got the optional in Conduit to get the accolade for it. Yeah the "good old days" where increased difficulties had pre-reqs weren't better because they had a lot of people who'd done normal, but didn't really pay attention.
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  • tigerariestigeraries Member Posts: 3,492 Arc User
    lapprenticel wrote: »
    Had an Endeavour quest to do 3x Iconian TFOs so queued for Basic - I wanted a quick match, and the toon I was using probably needs some upgrades. Nothing popped, so I added Adv as well, and that popped shortly after.

    Those I matched with should have stuck with Basic!!! The initial section is timed and has 2 parts. They failed to even complete the first part in the time limit. Come to the final boss battle - yes they eventually got there, and again failed the time limit. I would have preferred to play Basic but people didn't queue for that. Because the match took so long it became unviable to complete the Endeavour quest.

    :(

    ummm you get the elite mark... and it's not that much harder. even if you fail the options, the mission doesnt fail (for the most part).
  • chipg7chipg7 Member Posts: 1,577 Arc User
    lapprenticel wrote: »
    Had an Endeavour quest to do 3x Iconian TFOs so queued for Basic - I wanted a quick match, and the toon I was using probably needs some upgrades. Nothing popped, so I added Adv as well, and that popped shortly after.
    (emphasis is mine above)

    You literally answered your own question. Also, if you admit your ship is under-geared, which you do, you were part of the reason the session took so long.

  • disqord#9557 disqord
    disqord#9557
         Member Posts: 567 Arc User
    chipg7 wrote: »
    lapprenticel wrote: »
    Had an Endeavour quest to do 3x Iconian TFOs so queued for Basic - I wanted a quick match, and the toon I was using probably needs some upgrades. Nothing popped, so I added Adv as well, and that popped shortly after.
    (emphasis is mine above)

    You literally answered your own question. Also, if you admit your ship is under-geared, which you do, you were part of the reason the session took so long.

    "I hate people who are unprepared for the advanced content they try to play"

    "I need to get through this advanced content quickly on this unprepared character"
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,231 Arc User
    edited March 2019
    patrickngo wrote: »
    markhawkman wrote: »
    patrickngo wrote: »
    fact is, without a prerequisite, players will queue for the best paying content they can reliably access. If Elites suddenly started dumping out massive reward stacks, you'd see thousands of ungeared, unprepared players flooding Elites.
    Pretty sure Cryptic canned prereqs because they were a formality. You don't NEED to know how your team got the optional in Conduit to get the accolade for it. Yeah the "good old days" where increased difficulties had pre-reqs weren't better because they had a lot of people who'd done normal, but didn't really pay attention.
    it's a structural defect and it's too late to correct.

    Here's how it should've worked;

    Have to beat 'normal' consistently (with optionals) before being allowed to enter "advanced". what this does; once or twice is a fluke, beating normals isn't hard, but you at least learn the MAP before entering the advanced stage. call this 'stage one' it will include some basic optionals that are easily understood and can be picked up quickly ("Don't let the nanite probes heal the gate" or "Don't let the probes through the gateway"
    The flaw is that you need a way to know whether the player in question actually "earned" optional completion or whether their team did it for them while they DPSed stuff at random. With some maps it's probably fully impossible. Since you'd have to track WHAT they were DPSing during each phase to decide if it was a good contribution or wasted effort.
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  • xyquarzexyquarze Member Posts: 2,114 Arc User
    nixboox wrote: »
    Do Bug Hunt...people are always ready to play that.

    As they say on Wikipedia: "citation needed". My experience is that this is not entirely true.
    markhawkman wrote: »
    You don't NEED to know how your team got the optional in Conduit to get the accolade for it. Yeah the "good old days" where increased difficulties had pre-reqs weren't better because they had a lot of people who'd done normal, but didn't really pay attention.

    As was emphasized nicely with Pahvo dissension, Even on the last days some players still didn't realize that they not only have to get rid of the terran thingamajigs but also to place crystals. Probably always somebody ran over to their place to do so and they never noticed, nor the popup asking them to do so. I had one run where a team of 3 didn't advance on their line until somebody asked in team chat why they're not progressing ...
    patrickngo wrote: »
    Here's how it should've worked; (...)

    I agree in principle, however in the forums in other games with similar systems you will find heaps of complaints (translated to STO-ish) how they're only wanting to level up a toon and have to go through all the qualification again. Okay, make it an account unlock, then you get multi account players complaining. Devs cannot win this one.

    As for the OP and some comments: I quite often play on normal. I tend to be in the wrong ship all the time to get masteries (space magic Sci with no weapon skills whatsoever in an escort as an example), I also don't like to do an hour of setting up a loadout on such a throwaway build, so I just slap decent gear on and refrain from doing stuff out of my league.
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  • lapprenticellapprenticel Member Posts: 254 Arc User
    Not quite accurate. It's a question of team balance. If you have strong players you can have a carry or 2. The problem is the group I ended up with were all carries. IMHO none of them should have been playing Adv. I wanted to play Normal, and queued for that mode, but because it wasn't popping I was forced to also queue for Adv. That popped almost immediately so I ended up playing that instead of my preference but because they were all carries they struggled to perform, the match sucked, and my Endeavour failed.

    Not sure why this is so hard for some to understand. I had to play Iconian TFOs, I tried to play Normal, but was forced to play Adv instead. Yes my toon was a carry, but so were theirs. We should have been playing Normal instead but because I was the only one in that queue I never had that option hence my grizzle.
    disqord#9557 wrote: »
    chipg7 wrote: »
    lapprenticel wrote: »
    Had an Endeavour quest to do 3x Iconian TFOs so queued for Basic - I wanted a quick match, and the toon I was using probably needs some upgrades. Nothing popped, so I added Adv as well, and that popped shortly after.
    (emphasis is mine above)

    You literally answered your own question. Also, if you admit your ship is under-geared, which you do, you were part of the reason the session took so long.

    "I hate people who are unprepared for the advanced content they try to play"

    "I need to get through this advanced content quickly on this unprepared character"

  • ichaerus1ichaerus1 Member Posts: 986 Arc User
    patrickngo wrote: »
    markhawkman wrote: »
    patrickngo wrote: »
    fact is, without a prerequisite, players will queue for the best paying content they can reliably access. If Elites suddenly started dumping out massive reward stacks, you'd see thousands of ungeared, unprepared players flooding Elites.
    Pretty sure Cryptic canned prereqs because they were a formality. You don't NEED to know how your team got the optional in Conduit to get the accolade for it. Yeah the "good old days" where increased difficulties had pre-reqs weren't better because they had a lot of people who'd done normal, but didn't really pay attention.

    it's a structural defect and it's too late to correct.

    Here's how it should've worked;

    Have to beat 'normal' consistently (with optionals) before being allowed to enter "advanced". what this does; once or twice is a fluke, beating normals isn't hard, but you at least learn the MAP before entering the advanced stage. call this 'stage one' it will include some basic optionals that are easily understood and can be picked up quickly ("Don't let the nanite probes heal the gate" or "Don't let the probes through the gateway"

    Have to beat "advanced" with consistency before engaging in Elites. Advanced, adds additional optionals, and fail conditions that are self-evident. (don't let them kill the Kang, if you fail to stop x number probes from going through the time gate you'er done, and so on.)
    Advanced can add options for mission completion as well, but that gets pretty complicated (enough to merit its own discussion) but the basic principle is, the advanced gets harder because the demands are higher, not because the mobs have more hitpointz.

    require beating the "Advanced" of a given string/rep, before the Elite unlocks.

    Elites...should be something new. Korfez doesn't have a lower-tier analogue, and that's what and how Elites should be (for the most part), employing optionals that require 3 or more players to even attempt, and tight fail conditions linked to the mission text or objectives in the chatbox. Not just "Kill lots of mobs" but defend/protect/destroy specific targets and elements, secure positions, hold ground or detecting concealed enemies. Things that require a certain amount of skill to achieve and are hard to do with a PUG.

    pre-nerf Hive Onslaught would've qualified (before they nerfed it into the ground three months after release), or Korfez.

    would unqualified people get in? certainly, but a lot less and a lot less frequently, if they actually had to 'prove out' their ability to advance.

    but it's far too late for Cryptic to take that direction, because they already linked it to a provably irrelevant level requirement that can be reached without doing ANY content beyond doffing once Doffing becomes available.

    Staging this way, the first step, would be learning basic building for basic DPS. you're not going to consistently get through all the Borg STF/TFOs without having a basic grasp of DPS ten times in a row to open the theoretical next level. you're also going to need to learn what optionals are, and how to get them, and maybe have to learn some communication skills for missions like Khitomer Ground or Infected Ground.

    even on normal.

    follow that with the Advanced stage, which is where we include our first real 'mission failure' conditions. The mission fail conditions should be obvious, visible, and easily grasped. Letting too many borg get reassimilated (not the one borg, but like, seven), or blowing the virus in Rebecca's room (letting the timer drop without finishing, or letting it be interrupted), that sort of thing. This introduces 'risk', while adding 'team' optionals reinforces teamwork reqirements, but aren't necessary yet-just nice-to-haves, but if you want access to the Elite stage, you need to master them (or master the communication and strategies to GET them).

    Finally, you get to the Elite phase-after fully defeating the Advanced phase.

    not everyone is going to want to get here. this needs to be accepted. therefore there needs to be an intrinsic reward and the intrinsic reward, is maps and accolades that aren't available at the lower tiers, playing missions that aren't available at lower tiers.

    For this, you have things like Korfez, or an updated version of Terrordrome, missions that will absolutely fail if your team can't work together, but with commensurate rewards for doing so.

    IOW "Normal" for normal players, Advanced for advanced players, and Elite for the ones who are willing to put in the work.

    but as I said at the start, we're so far past the point where that's a viable move for Cryptic that it's purely academic.

    Cryptic though doesn't have the mentality for this. They don't like the "climb to glory," where people earn their way through the harder difficulties by progressing and learning through them. That's also why they removed almost all fail conditions(only a few TFOs have them), and gave everyone pretty much the same rewards across the board for completion.

    Something that I enjoy about DDO, is that unless you're VIP or grouped w/ someone who has it unlocked, you have to progress through the difficulties on dungeons(Normal, Hard, Elite, Reaper 1-10, on top of Heroic vs Epic) to gain favor and better loot, or "flag" yourself for raids by doing the appropriate quest/dungeon chains.
  • postinggumpostinggum Member Posts: 1,117 Arc User
    Thats what reroll tokens are for, if not get together with some solid players via chat/fleet/friends list and do a private run. Pugging any 3x TFO that aren't borg is probably going to be quite bad for one's mood.
  • littlesarbonnlittlesarbonn Member Posts: 486 Arc User
    Bug Hunt is actually a lot of fun. I can see why people play it.
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  • casualstocasualsto Member Posts: 672 Arc User
    RTFO - Normal is the fastest way to get some marks.

    RTFO - Advanced is the slower way to get more marks.

    RTFO - Elite with the actual PUG chance... I've never tried.

    I mostly play BHE, MINE, DRSE, DRSA, ISA, TCA and occassionally red alerts. But I won't say no to certain random maps.
  • baddmoonrizinbaddmoonrizin Member Posts: 10,319 Community Moderator
    Sometimes I wonder why some of you people even continue playing this game. Your distain for it, through your writing here in the forum, is obvious. :unamused:
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  • where2r1where2r1 Member Posts: 6,054 Arc User
    That you think they are playing is the wonder.
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  • baddmoonrizinbaddmoonrizin Member Posts: 10,319 Community Moderator
    And if they aren't, then it also makes me wonder why they would bother complaining about it in the forum. :smirk:
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  • xyquarzexyquarze Member Posts: 2,114 Arc User
    nixboox wrote: »
    Well, you could just try it and see for yourself. I rarely have to wait for longer than a minute before Bug Hunt is ready.

    Ah, sorry, within the context I totally misunderstood what you were saying, my bad. I totally agree with that statement now. I understood "ready to play Bug Hunt" as "able to play Bug Hunt efficiently without running in random directions not doing anything"
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