test content
What is the Arc Client?
Install Arc

Foundry Sunset, April 11th, 2019

12425272930

Comments

  • haarddhaardd Member Posts: 26 Arc User
    My feeling is it's a combination of all the above, and the only reason it's still a thing is the IP and that it is fun to pew pew.

    YUP, and this will dillute the value of ST as IP
    If I hadn't already bought a LTS I would not log in at all now
    I have gone the longest without playing since the sunset announcement
    LTS4LIFE
  • trennantrennan Member Posts: 2,225 Arc User
    One could do exploration in the Foundry. I did.

    In my KDF side missions. I did.

    Tiqchirgh 1: Which was an Exploration Map. however the end of it tied into my next one

    Tiqchirch 2: S.O.T. Special Operations Team, which was my first full custom map. However, I never got to finish this out, but the end of this one tied into the next one. I also needed to go back and toss in some decorations for this map.

    Tiqchirgh1, 2: Which is the colony I was building and subsequent following story line. I was still working on building that map.

    Then when I started on my next project, I would have looked to see how I could've tied it to the end, or to something in the Tiqchirch 1, 2.

    Just like the aforementioned loopholes people use the Foundry for, like kill accolades, or kill endeavors. If they just left it as is, we the authors would figure out how to keep working with it. I mean with the current placement icons not showing, one already has to absorb an good deal of hopping in and out of the map just to get pieces placed right. So, it's not like we aren't already doing this.
    Cheating_zps1brwslhb.jpg
  • sirsitsalotsirsitsalot Member Posts: 1,619 Arc User
    I don't care anymore.

    Well then, I guess this particular topic can be put to rest.

    Oh, the smugness...

    Just you wait. At some point, you won't care anymore either.

    And at some point, those who seem to want to defend every poor decision Cryptic makes will be the victims of one of those decisions. To save face, they won't bash Cryptic for it. Oh no... Cryptic can never do any wrong... Their little bright and cheerful lights will just go dark. They won't care anymore, either.

    Exploration went neglected. Fewer and Fewer people used it. It was too much trouble to fix. GONE.
    Foundry went neglected. Fewer and fewer people used it. It's too much trouble to fix. GONE.
    PvP has gone neglected. Fewer and fewer people use it. It's clearly too much trouble to fix. Not hard to figure out what's next.
    And then something else will go neglected, fewer and fewer people will use it, it will be too much trouble to fix, and it to will eventually be gone. What will that be? I haven't a clue, but it will be something that a segment of the remaining community will hace cared about and would have been important to them. And after it is gone, THEY won't care either.

    But it is okay. It's only veteran players that are marginalized by these decisions. New players won't care. And Star trek Discovery and the forthcoming Picard series will bring plenty of new players to this game, I have no doubt. Out with the old and in with the new, right?

    MEH!
    I have no snarky remarks to make, at this time...
  • ltminnsltminns Member Posts: 8,629 Arc User
    First they came for Exploration Clusters, and I did not speak out—because I did not run Exploration Clusters.

    Then they came for Featured Episodes, and I did not speak out— because I did not care.

    Then they came for the Foundry, and I did not speak out— because I did not create or run Foundry Missions.

    Then they came for PVP, and I did not speak out— because I did not PVP.

    Then they shut the game down—and there was no one left to speak for me.
    'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!
    Judge Dan Haywood
  • sirsitsalotsirsitsalot Member Posts: 1,619 Arc User
    ltminns wrote: »
    First they came for Exploration Clusters, and I did not speak out—because I did not run Exploration Clusters.

    Then they came for Featured Episodes, and I did not speak out— because I did not care.

    Then they came for the Foundry, and I did not speak out— because I did not create or run Foundry Missions.

    Then they came for PVP, and I did not speak out— because I did not PVP.

    Then they shut the game down—and there was no one left to speak for me.

    A little melodramatic, but accurate.
    I have no snarky remarks to make, at this time...
  • somtaawkharsomtaawkhar Member Posts: 5,747 Arc User
    edited March 15
    Se you have made up your mind to dump on anything someone suggests that isn't in line with what Cryptic is doing. And every reason you give why something is a bad idea is something that, with a little imagination, can be mitigated. All it takes is a dedicated team of developers with a desire to see their game become more than just an exercise in mediocrity. If Cryptic isn't that sort of team, then that is their own fault.
    No. I simply dislike it when people sit around and say everything is so "easy", and their idea is "so obvious" in how good it is/its functionality, and the devs are just lazy/incompetent, when, in reality, it takes all of about 5 seconds looking at it to find numerous major issues with the proposal.
    That could be eliminated if you start on your species homeworld if you skip the tutorial.
    Ok so what about everyone who doesn't skip the tutorial? What reason would they have to care about said holdings if they don't start off on the planet with them to begin with?
    Overall progression and upkeep costs could scale based on various sets of metrics. For example, upkeep for a Cardassian holding would be in line with how many unique accounts actually play as cardassians. This would keep the costs reasonable.
    Define "play as Cardassian" because there are a lot of people who would make a Cardassian to test it out, but then never log back into that character because they have so much more on their main. And now, because of these new holdings, you are adding more grind onto making a new character, which makes making a new character less attractive.
    Upkeep would not be that bad if there was a system of diminishing requirements in effect. The older that an alliance holding is, the more self-sufficient it would be. So the bulk of upkeep would occur with the newest holdings, where the bulk of the player base would be at endgame anyway.

    Upkeep on older holdings would give new players coming up through the related content would something to participate in that has purpose. And here's a novel idea for the Admiralty system. Trade routes that would allow the movement of upkeep resources from places they are stockpiled or constructed to where they are needed. Imagine that. An Admiral in STO actually doing what Admirals in Star Trek would do when they aren't visiting hero ships and pestering the hell out of their captains?
    Define the perimeters in which a building would be old enough to qualify for said discount, how much the discount would be, how that would affect long term possible investment by new players. etc. Not to mention such an idea is backwards from how logic would dictate the system would be where the NEWEST buildings would require the least upkeep since they are new, whereas older buildings would require more, as they are older. Which is usually how such systems are set up.
    Well, they would care if the activities tied to a season's content are based there. What is the point in having social hubs, or outposts, if you don't need to interact with a mission giver in the area itself. So many things in this game are accessible from the UI. There's convenience and then there is the total removal of engagement with the gameworld. It's hard to feel invested in a gmeworld that requires little or no interaction.
    Pretty much every social hub in the game has been featured in one mission/arc or another. They already do that, and still no one cares because going to ESD/First City is just so much more convenient regardless.

    Also, are you suggesting that Cryptic not only has to design holdings for every single playable species in STO, but now they have to do something not even WoW with all of its money can do, and make unique content for every species for all of these holdings, and at a consistent pace?
    And why do you think people do this? Because there are so many boring grindfests in the game that people want to take the quickest route possible to achieve their goals. Maybe if the devs would quit with all the grinding treadmills and make the game FUN, it would be less of an issue. There will always be cheaters though. So the methods they use should be dealt with on a case-by-case basis. It's extreme short-sightedness for a developer to not implement a feature or function on the ground that a handful of people might cheat. The rest will not.
    If you think anything in STO is a grind, you haven't played many MMOs. You know what is a grind? Trying to get through Lord of the Rings Online. They have a means to earn the store currency in-game, but to get enough of it to buy even one small module requires you play through like the whole game that is open to free to play players. Then, to get more modules, you basically have to farm the game's opening areas with new characters literally HUNDREDS of times. Grinding is logging on every day to kill boars for 10 hours because that is the only way to get the .00000001% drop item you need to play the game. Logging in every day for 2 minutes to set up some admiralty and doff assignments which rake in EXP, DIL, and EC, to the point you don't even really need to play the game, or logging in for 15 minutes to play Pahvo, isn't a grind by any measure. People do these things because they want to. Even if something take no effort, if they can make it take even LESS effort they will pounce on it because that is how people are. And its actually good thinking to not do something they know will have A LOT of people cheating. That is just basic game design 101.
    Of course they showed interest. Those were pretty much set up so they played like part of the game as a whole, while both Foundry and Exploration always felt like sideshow attractions. Had they been treated like "family" instead of TRIBBLE stepchildren, people would have engaged with them a lot more. What real purpose did exploration serve as pat of the whole? What purpose did Foundry serve as part of the whole? They didn't. They were just there and were not supported. How could they expect any kind of serious interest when no effort is made to keep things fresh. People had been reporting bugs related to Foundry since the foundry came out and they were never fixed. Same with exploration. They never bothered to treat either system with equal importance.
    The Foundry could have never been a greater part of the game because the content made in it is made inside the game, and thus, unable to interact with the rest of the game on the same level as things made outside of the game with the official dev tools. This is true of ANY user created content. There will always be a line between content created by the devs who can edit the game's source code, and content made by fans who have to work within what is already there. The fact that Cryptic put Foundry doors on every single system in the game, and dozens of items in social maps around ESD, First City, and DS9, is honestly noteworthy to how far they went to try. And its not like any of the official missions they do, or VAs they hire, could be involved since there's a million and one foundry missions, and there is no way to cover them all.

    Same thing with exploration. Randomly generated content, in a game that isn't based entirely on randomly generated content, can only really be done as a tacked on addition. Even the system you propose could only really be implemented in the game via slapping a map transition to the bottom of the Alpha Quadrant map that says "to the exploration zone!". It would always be something cut off from the rest of the game. Even if they added an "exploration" Admiralty tract, it would be completeable via the UI like all the others. Doffing, as it is now at least, would be off the table since there would be no way to set up the sector blocks in a randomly generated system to ensure that doff assignments stayed in logical places. If they revamped doffing in a way that its all UI based, and there are no more doff sector blocks that determine what missions you have available, that just begs the question of why bother to go to the exploration zone when you can just get them anywhere. And, much like the Foundry, official quests, voice actors, and events, would basically be impossible to do since its all randomly generated, and you can't predict what will end up where for who, meaning you can't really make a story for them like we have seen in the official story missions.
    Foundry could have had it where if a mission was configured a certain way, it would turn certain flags on. When an exploration sector block is generated and it calls for a star system with certain conditions, it would check for Foundry star systems that meet the criteria. If none are met, then the system would generate one. If they are met, then the "door" for that star system would point to the chosen Foundry star system. Of couse, this functionality would have to be coded in, and assumes what MIGHT HAVE BEEN, had it been managed by a dev team that treated Foundry as an actual part of the game as a whole rather than some sort of neglected animal chained in a corner whose owners decided to just let die.
    I was not aware that you were a dev with an inside knowledge of how the code works.
  • sirsitsalotsirsitsalot Member Posts: 1,619 Arc User
    Se you have made up your mind to dump on anything someone suggests that isn't in line with what Cryptic is doing. And every reason you give why something is a bad idea is something that, with a little imagination, can be mitigated. All it takes is a dedicated team of developers with a desire to see their game become more than just an exercise in mediocrity. If Cryptic isn't that sort of team, then that is their own fault.
    No. I simply dislike it when people sit around and say everything is so "easy", and their idea is "so obvious" in how good it is/its functionality, and the devs are just lazy/incompetent, when, in reality, it takes all of about 5 seconds looking at it to find numerous major issues with the proposal.
    That could be eliminated if you start on your species homeworld if you skip the tutorial.
    Ok so what about everyone who doesn't skip the tutorial? What reason would they have to care about said holdings if they don't start off on the planet with them to begin with?
    Overall progression and upkeep costs could scale based on various sets of metrics. For example, upkeep for a Cardassian holding would be in line with how many unique accounts actually play as cardassians. This would keep the costs reasonable.
    Define "play as Cardassian" because there are a lot of people who would make a Cardassian to test it out, but then never log back into that character because they have so much more on their main. And now, because of these new holdings, you are adding more grind onto making a new character, which makes making a new character less attractive.
    Upkeep would not be that bad if there was a system of diminishing requirements in effect. The older that an alliance holding is, the more self-sufficient it would be. So the bulk of upkeep would occur with the newest holdings, where the bulk of the player base would be at endgame anyway.

    Upkeep on older holdings would give new players coming up through the related content would something to participate in that has purpose. And here's a novel idea for the Admiralty system. Trade routes that would allow the movement of upkeep resources from places they are stockpiled or constructed to where they are needed. Imagine that. An Admiral in STO actually doing what Admirals in Star Trek would do when they aren't visiting hero ships and pestering the hell out of their captains?
    Define the perimeters in which a building would be old enough to qualify for said discount, how much the discount would be, how that would affect long term possible investment by new players. etc. Not to mention such an idea is backwards from how logic would dictate the system would be where the NEWEST buildings would require the least upkeep since they are new, whereas older buildings would require more, as they are older. Which is usually how such systems are set up.
    Well, they would care if the activities tied to a season's content are based there. What is the point in having social hubs, or outposts, if you don't need to interact with a mission giver in the area itself. So many things in this game are accessible from the UI. There's convenience and then there is the total removal of engagement with the gameworld. It's hard to feel invested in a gmeworld that requires little or no interaction.
    Pretty much every social hub in the game has been featured in one mission/arc or another. They already do that, and still no one cares because going to ESD/First City is just so much more convenient regardless.

    Also, are you suggesting that Cryptic not only has to design holdings for every single playable species in STO, but now they have to do something not even WoW with all of its money can do, and make unique content for every species for all of these holdings, and at a consistent pace?
    And why do you think people do this? Because there are so many boring grindfests in the game that people want to take the quickest route possible to achieve their goals. Maybe if the devs would quit with all the grinding treadmills and make the game FUN, it would be less of an issue. There will always be cheaters though. So the methods they use should be dealt with on a case-by-case basis. It's extreme short-sightedness for a developer to not implement a feature or function on the ground that a handful of people might cheat. The rest will not.
    If you think anything in STO is a grind, you haven't played many MMOs. You know what is a grind? Trying to get through Lord of the Rings Online. They have a means to earn the store currency in-game, but to get enough of it to buy even one small module requires you play through like the whole game that is open to free to play players. Then, to get more modules, you basically have to farm the game's opening areas with new characters literally HUNDREDS of times. Grinding is logging on every day to kill boars for 10 hours because that is the only way to get the .00000001% drop item you need to play the game. Logging in every day for 2 minutes to set up some admiralty and doff assignments which rake in EXP, DIL, and EC, to the point you don't even really need to play the game, or logging in for 15 minutes to play Pahvo, isn't a grind by any measure. People do these things because they want to. Even if something take no effort, if they can make it take even LESS effort they will pounce on it because that is how people are. And its actually good thinking to not do something they know will have A LOT of people cheating. That is just basic game design 101.
    Of course they showed interest. Those were pretty much set up so they played like part of the game as a whole, while both Foundry and Exploration always felt like sideshow attractions. Had they been treated like "family" instead of TRIBBLE stepchildren, people would have engaged with them a lot more. What real purpose did exploration serve as pat of the whole? What purpose did Foundry serve as part of the whole? They didn't. They were just there and were not supported. How could they expect any kind of serious interest when no effort is made to keep things fresh. People had been reporting bugs related to Foundry since the foundry came out and they were never fixed. Same with exploration. They never bothered to treat either system with equal importance.
    The Foundry could have never been a greater part of the game because the content made in it is made inside the game, and thus, unable to interact with the rest of the game on the same level as things made outside of the game with the official dev tools. This is true of ANY user created content. There will always be a line between content created by the devs who can edit the game's source code, and content made by fans who have to work within what is already there. The fact that Cryptic put Foundry doors on every single system in the game, and dozens of items in social maps around ESD, First City, and DS9, is honestly noteworthy to how far they went to try. And its not like any of the official missions they do, or VAs they hire, could be involved since there's a million and one foundry missions, and there is no way to cover them all.

    Same thing with exploration. Randomly generated content, in a game that isn't based entirely on randomly generated content, can only really be done as a tacked on addition. Even the system you propose could only really be implemented in the game via slapping a map transition to the bottom of the Alpha Quadrant map that says "to the exploration zone!". It would always be something cut off from the rest of the game. Even if they added an "exploration" Admiralty tract, it would be completeable via the UI like all the others. Doffing, as it is now at least, would be off the table since there would be no way to set up the sector blocks in a randomly generated system to ensure that doff assignments stayed in logical places. If they revamped doffing in a way that its all UI based, and there are no more doff sector blocks that determine what missions you have available, that just begs the question of why bother to go to the exploration zone when you can just get them anywhere. And, much like the Foundry, official quests, voice actors, and events, would basically be impossible to do since its all randomly generated, and you can't predict what will end up where for who, meaning you can't really make a story for them like we have seen in the official story missions.
    Foundry could have had it where if a mission was configured a certain way, it would turn certain flags on. When an exploration sector block is generated and it calls for a star system with certain conditions, it would check for Foundry star systems that meet the criteria. If none are met, then the system would generate one. If they are met, then the "door" for that star system would point to the chosen Foundry star system. Of couse, this functionality would have to be coded in, and assumes what MIGHT HAVE BEEN, had it been managed by a dev team that treated Foundry as an actual part of the game as a whole rather than some sort of neglected animal chained in a corner whose owners decided to just let die.
    I was not aware that you were a dev with an inside knowledge of how the code works.

    It doesn't matter.
    I no longer care.
    I have no snarky remarks to make, at this time...
  • ltminnsltminns Member Posts: 8,629 Arc User
    This Thread is loaded with enough Dissertations as it is, we could use less full requotes of them all.

    'Electrons are a terrible thing to waste.'

    :)
    'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!
    Judge Dan Haywood
  • pendra37#5088 pendra37 Member Posts: 29 Arc User
    ltminns wrote: »
    This Thread is loaded with enough Dissertations as it is, we could use less full requotes of them all.

    'Electrons are a terrible thing to waste.'

    :)

    OK
  • zorky63zorky63 Member Posts: 19 Arc User
    [quote] @koihimenakamura said:

    > The Foundy served well, for how long it was around. But I can fully understand them going 'this is consuming more resources than it needs to, and we don't have the resources or people left to fix it.' Speaking as a hobbyist programmer, it's far too easy to fall into code debt and no longer have the ability to redeem it. [/quote]

    Yeah, this whole game is the definition of 'code debt' ... , from it's initial implementation as a quick "strap on" onto their engine (with a partial re-skin if Champions under the hood) , to the long string of abandoned systems that could have been worked on, but got jettisoned or a abandoned instead .

    Hell, I find the "Genesis Torpedo" award to be ... rather fitting, as it combines two existing elements : the patch of greenery coming from an already utilized Anniversary award ... -- but the more interesting part , the Genesis Device ... , that I suspect was something "laying around" on the 'virtual shelf' , yet again long abandoned from a previous classic movies based idea ... , perhaps from the infomous "Children of Kahn" STF that never got made ... .
    (one that had assets made for it drip-driped into the game) .

    STO was made using shortcuts in around 18 months, and we've been paying for that decision ever since ... in more ways than one .
    On one hand you had Cryptic playing the eternal "catch up" to their initial rushed game launch, and on the other hand you had the shunting of funds & personell -- essentially us paying for something else not involving STO content .

    We payed for Neverwinter (especially Neverwinter's Foundry's foundational development . We payed for converting the game to Free to Play (all the while being told that we're not going F2P) , and now we're offering up the Foundry as the sacraficial lamb to the development cycle of their new mmo , Magic the Gathering .

    And all the while we got nonsensical projects going, like redesign after redesign of UI elements , or power setup tables .
    At times I could have sworn that they came up with projects just to keep Al's systems team employed from date x to date y ... , while at different times they clearly dropped projects half finished into the game (hello crafting revamp) and rushed on to other things before finishing all that they had in mind for the system .

    I have no regrets from becoming a lifetime subscriber ... (a month before The Year of Hell started) any more then subbing before that for months and months .
    My first regret was finding out that my LTS (as well as subsequent ingame purchases) went towards something that Cryptic's CM denied that they were doing (F2P conversation) .
    Coming full circle, I have the feeling that my last regret in STO is seeing the Foundry get flushed down the toilet .
    And as I'm not a Discovery fan ... , STO will have nothing for me come next month .
  • sirsitsalotsirsitsalot Member Posts: 1,619 Arc User
    edited March 16
    One thing I do want to say.

    I want to make it clear that while I have been ripping Cryptic over the decision to remove the Foundry rather than finding a way to fix it and builkd upon it, just like they decided to remove Exploration instead of finding a way to fix and build upon IT, I have been remiss in stating that the parts of the game they do deem important enough to focus on are done quite well. So it isn't what they DO that has me TRIBBLE off. It's what they DON'T do. Cryptic, as a development house COULD do these things if they had people on the team with the right skillsets whom they could dedicate to fixing and building upon systems that the others do not have the time and/or talent to dedicate. That is a money issue. And who controls Cryptic's money? That would be PWE.

    There was nobody that could be allocated to fixing and expanding Exploration. Exploration went away
    There is nobody that can be allocated to fixing and expanding Foundry, so it is going away
    There is nobody that can be allocated to fixing and expanding PvP, so I believe it will be going away as well

    Let me be clear... I personally LOATHE PvP in any MMO. I avoid it like the plague. But that is a personal decision. For many, an MMO is not worth playing without a solid PvP element. And I will fight tooth and nail to defend them in terms of keeping something they feel drawn to. So while I believe that PvP will be going away, I do not want to see it happen, because it would be yet another lost opportunity to service a segment of this MMO's playerbase. Yes, that segment has shrunken to a shadow of its former self due to lack of interest. But that lack of interest resulted from Cryptic's lack of effort to maintain and build upon it.

    Most people who PvP do not do so exclusively. There is always a significant overlap in playstyles. So those who would PvP in this game would probably also engage in the game's other activities as well. But if PvP is what draws them, then without it they won't hang around to engage in the other stuff. Lack of community interest due to lack of support from Cryptic has all but destroyed STO's PvP community segment. So based on previous decisions, and assuming their development philosophy isn't going to change, they will decide to remove PvP as the solution to, ironically, a problem they themselves created out of neglect. And when that happens, I will be just as angry about it as I am about the decision to remove Foundry, and STILL an about the decision and outright STUPID excuse they gave for removing Exploration.

    At least this time they were honest in telling us that they do not have the talent (meaning manpower) to continue supporting Foundry, and have no plans of replacing it with anything else.

    They lied to us when they told us that their reason for removing exploration was because players were getting lost in exploration sectors, and then told us that they were working on the plans for a better exploration system that would come later. See that sounds better than "We don't have the people to support exploration so it has to go away and we have no plans to replace it." Exploration has been gone for how long now? And where is the replacement system?

    Oh... Right... Aside from some DOff assignments, the exploration clusters became what? Entry points to FOUNDRY missions, That was Cryptic's way of officializing the "Foundry for Exploration" sentiment. Now that is going away too. So either thay have been secretly working on that new exploration system they promised, or the bright light of the notion of meaningful exploration gameplay in STO is truly going dark. If I were a betting man, my money would be on the latter.

    Like I said, what they do focus on, they do very good with. It's what they don't do, but COULD do if they were so motivated, but don't because they aren't that I find fault with.

    I really would like to care again, but it is what Cryptic could but won't do that is making it very very hard to do so.

    Peace!
    \\//,

    PS
    @somtaawkhar
    I harbor no ill will towards you. It is clear that I will not be changing your mind about anything any more than you will be changing my mind. Good day...
    I have no snarky remarks to make, at this time...
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 33,544 Arc User
    edited March 16
    thanatos9t wrote: »
    The only good ones I've seen were ones where it was used very carefully, most importantly? No attempt at randomized stories.
    They do still seem to have some procedural content in STO as certain TFO's randomize certain elements of the mission. Day's of Doom seems to randomize the enemies attacking the starbase, along with the nebula's visuals, and on the Battle of Procyon V the enemies seem to be random.

    Whether or not these are done in a similar way to the old Exploration missions is another question.
    No, not even close. I wish I could remember which episode it was, but in one of the Foundry Roundtable dev interviews we got to ask about that. Genesis is a dev tool, and not part of the game, at ALL. For example, and because I love sharing these old pics:

    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
    Costume_marhawkman_Tsin%27xing_CC_Comic_Page_Blue_488916968.jpg
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 33,544 Arc User
    If I check other games who tried procedural content, I can't really tell one where it worked well. They ended up as boring, bland, shallow, repeating. For any good result, you have 100 bad ones. Now if someone test plays all the of them, take the better ones out, and then add the final touches by hand, well, that would work.
    The only good ones I've seen were ones where it was used very carefully, most importantly? No attempt at randomized stories.
    This. I have championed a procedurally generated exploration system, and everyone keeps thinking I am talking about STORIES. And NOTHING I say will get it through their heads that I am talking about maps and events that need to occur. the STORIES would be ours to make. Once generated, a sector block would remain persistent, with whatever elements that are part of it playing into the rest of the game, with colonization and industrialization options.
    I actually made a tutorial on how to create branches in Foundry missions:

    Basically any story stuff that isn't part of the main quest objectives can be tied to triggers that show/hide things based on factors the player can't see. Possibly things the player has no control over.
    Cryptic's biggest problem with approaching systems like exploration and the Foundry is that they seem to have a "fire and forget" mentality. They throw a system out there and never seem to revisit it later. It is what it is and on to the next thing.
    Not true. They did revamp and improve Foundry multiple times. But they spent more time bug fixing it.
    Imagine if Foundry also let us create Admiralty and Duty Officer assignments. Imagine if we could set up PvP events. Imagine if it had hooks into most if not all of the other systems.
    This is the sort of stuff the devs had discussed as "possible future improvements" BUT, they didn't have time to add new stuff and fix the Foundry at the same time.

    How broken is the Foundry as-is? Building complex maps in the editor is an exercise in guesswork since you can't see where you're placing things. Attempting to play a mission in preview mode is problematic because Foundry characters can't change maps. Foundry characters also can't claim doffing, admiralty, or R&D rewards. I know because doffing and Admiralty are a big part of how I got my Foundry character to Level 65.

    Yes, really, THAT is my Foundry character. Currently the only repeatable source of Rep Marks for Tetin is the daily race in the summer event. Every other method is unusable because of bugs, or excluded by design(TFOs).
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
    Costume_marhawkman_Tsin%27xing_CC_Comic_Page_Blue_488916968.jpg
  • patrickngopatrickngo Member Posts: 9,808 Arc User
    One thing I do want to say.

    I want to make it clear that while I have been ripping Cryptic over the decision to remove the Foundry rather than finding a way to fix it and builkd upon it, just like they decided to remove Exploration instead of finding a way to fix and build upon IT, I have been remiss in stating that the parts of the game they do deem important enough to focus on are done quite well. So it isn't what they DO that has me TRIBBLE off. It's what they DON'T do. Cryptic, as a development house COULD do these things if they had people on the team with the right skillsets whom they could dedicate to fixing and building upon systems that the others do not have the time and/or talent to dedicate. That is a money issue. And who controls Cryptic's money? That would be PWE.

    There was nobody that could be allocated to fixing and expanding Exploration. Exploration went away
    There is nobody that can be allocated to fixing and expanding Foundry, so it is going away
    There is nobody that can be allocated to fixing and expanding PvP, so I believe it will be going away as well

    Let me be clear... I personally LOATHE PvP in any MMO. I avoid it like the plague. But that is a personal decision. For many, an MMO is not worth playing without a solid PvP element. And I will fight tooth and nail to defend them in terms of keeping something they feel drawn to. So while I believe that PvP will be going away, I do not want to see it happen, because it would be yet another lost opportunity to service a segment of this MMO's playerbase. Yes, that segment has shrunken to a shadow of its former self due to lack of interest. But that lack of interest resulted from Cryptic's lack of effort to maintain and build upon it.

    Most people who PvP do not do so exclusively. There is always a significant overlap in playstyles. So those who would PvP in this game would probably also engage in the game's other activities as well. But if PvP is what draws them, then without it they won't hang around to engage in the other stuff. Lack of community interest due to lack of support from Cryptic has all but destroyed STO's PvP community segment. So based on previous decisions, and assuming their development philosophy isn't going to change, they will decide to remove PvP as the solution to, ironically, a problem they themselves created out of neglect. And when that happens, I will be just as angry about it as I am about the decision to remove Foundry, and STILL an about the decision and outright STUPID excuse they gave for removing Exploration.

    At least this time they were honest in telling us that they do not have the talent (meaning manpower) to continue supporting Foundry, and have no plans of replacing it with anything else.

    They lied to us when they told us that their reason for removing exploration was because players were getting lost in exploration sectors, and then told us that they were working on the plans for a better exploration system that would come later. See that sounds better than "We don't have the people to support exploration so it has to go away and we have no plans to replace it." Exploration has been gone for how long now? And where is the replacement system?

    Oh... Right... Aside from some DOff assignments, the exploration clusters became what? Entry points to FOUNDRY missions, That was Cryptic's way of officializing the "Foundry for Exploration" sentiment. Now that is going away too. So either thay have been secretly working on that new exploration system they promised, or the bright light of the notion of meaningful exploration gameplay in STO is truly going dark. If I were a betting man, my money would be on the latter.

    Like I said, what they do focus on, they do very good with. It's what they don't do, but COULD do if they were so motivated, but don't because they aren't that I find fault with.

    I really would like to care again, but it is what Cryptic could but won't do that is making it very very hard to do so.

    Peace!
    \\//,

    PS
    @somtaawkhar
    I harbor no ill will towards you. It is clear that I will not be changing your mind about anything any more than you will be changing my mind. Good day...

    you know that terrible feeling you're feeling? the emptiness, the apathy? that is the feeling when you see something you care about being run off a cliff.

    it's that feeling that makes you scream at the screen during a horror flick "NO! don't split the party!!"

    THAT is the feeling some of us have been getting when Cryptic makes these major changes. some of us have been getting it many times over the last nine years.

    it has not, thus far, impacted Cryptic Studios in the least. They appear determined to push their way from near greatness to utter mediocrity, and nothing will dissuade them. I've watched a lot of the best, most creative, involved and supportive players get disgusted and leave over the years. I think the last major exodus was right after Delta Rising dropped.

    like then, this too will not be the final straw that gets their attention, because the metrics and their focus on an ever narrowing majority conspire to tell them things are just fine-this is because, like your Romulan character, you and I as players are the most easily replaced assets in the game.

    whatever.

  • ltminnsltminns Member Posts: 8,629 Arc User
    'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!
    Judge Dan Haywood
  • pomonagrange#3097 pomonagrange Member Posts: 112 Arc User
    you know that terrible feeling you're feeling? the emptiness, the apathy? that is the feeling when you see something you care about being run off a cliff.

    it's that feeling that makes you scream at the screen during a horror flick "NO! don't split the party!!"

    THAT is the feeling some of us have been getting when Cryptic makes these major changes. some of us have been getting it many times over the last nine years.

    it has not, thus far, impacted Cryptic Studios in the least. They appear determined to push their way from near greatness to utter mediocrity, and nothing will dissuade them. I've watched a lot of the best, most creative, involved and supportive players get disgusted and leave over the years. I think the last major exodus was right after Delta Rising dropped.

    like then, this too will not be the final straw that gets their attention, because the metrics and their focus on an ever narrowing majority conspire to tell them things are just fine-this is because, like your Romulan character, you and I as players are the most easily replaced assets in the game.

    I remember a year or two ago, saying to myself, "I think I can finally start saving up money for a lifetime subscription to STO." I actually wanted to, after only spending $50 back in Fall 2012 (and nothing since then). But then I thought, "What's the point?" There is almost no dynamic (i.e., at least a slight randomness) to any of the missions. Enemies always start in the same location. And the characters? You might as well choose the same race for each character in whichever faction it's a member of, since each mission mostly doesn't seem to care whether your character is human, Romulan, Vulcan, Klingon, Andorian, etc. I guess the game engine (unlike the one that SWTOR uses) isn't set up for that sort of thing. I just try to imagine that NPCs know my character's correct rank, what race I am, etc. As if I were in a TV series, not in an online game.

    What do I miss most in STO, though? The friends I've made over the years (since Fall 2012). The ones who made doing missions together fun (like in the Defera Invasion Zone, or space patrols, etc.) and there was usually time to chat during or before and after missions. We weren't the hyper-competitive types. We didn't take the game overly seriously. We just wanted to hang out, have fun, explore, goof off, do some Foundry missions every so often (not necessarily the action missions, but sometimes Risa Hotel or Beach House on Risa), or whatever. It made you happy to be part of a pair or trio or group. Hope that some of those folks are still playing STO (even if less frequently, maybe using different accounts, and maybe we're on at different times in different time-zones). Hope this made sense.
  • ichaerus1ichaerus1 Member Posts: 753 Arc User
    ltminns wrote: »
    Actually, Lord of the Rings Online handles two versions of one area in the game, namely Isengard. One is pre destruction and the other post flooding. What you interact with depends on the context of how you get there.

    In a way we sort of have that kind of thing already in-game with Defera and Risa. Here you just beam down into the different context Instances. In a more limited sense we have a different view of part of New Romulus in 'Blood of the Ancients'.

    LOTRO handles a third, with the Riders of Rohan expansion that came after Rise of Isengard expansion. That was the last that I knew, as I left that game in 2012.

    Dungeons & Dragons Online does this with at least one quest pack(Attack on Stormreach), as well as the tutorial for Korthos Island(the atmosphere of the town changes once you complete the tutorial missions, or you leave the island). I haven't yet explored every quest and quest pack yet for DDO, but I know of both of those for sure. The former was as a result of "flagging" for the final quest in the Attack on Stormreach pack, and resets after you finish that quest and turn it all in.
  • ichaerus1ichaerus1 Member Posts: 753 Arc User
    patrickngo wrote: »

    you know that terrible feeling you're feeling? the emptiness, the apathy? that is the feeling when you see something you care about being run off a cliff.

    it's that feeling that makes you scream at the screen during a horror flick "NO! don't split the party!!"

    THAT is the feeling some of us have been getting when Cryptic makes these major changes. some of us have been getting it many times over the last nine years.

    it has not, thus far, impacted Cryptic Studios in the least. They appear determined to push their way from near greatness to utter mediocrity, and nothing will dissuade them. I've watched a lot of the best, most creative, involved and supportive players get disgusted and leave over the years. I think the last major exodus was right after Delta Rising dropped.

    like then, this too will not be the final straw that gets their attention, because the metrics and their focus on an ever narrowing majority conspire to tell them things are just fine-this is because, like your Romulan character, you and I as players are the most easily replaced assets in the game.

    To the bolded part, yep. Experienced it ever since finding out that the Foundry is getting flushed down the porcelain throne like a goldfish burial.

    To the italicized, not the final straw that gets Cryptic's attention, but it is the final straw for a number of players. Like Goodman @mattjohnsonva, I, as well as a number of those I lead in my fleet, have been spending more time and money in another MMORPG(for us, it's DDO), and less of both currencies in STO. I'll still pop in to STO, but it'll be to shunt refined dilithium to my fleet holdings, or keep track of the zen stipend I get each month, before I pop over to DDO.

    To the bolded, italicized: Reminds me of the WWF/WWE when ECW and WCW went under(old professional wrestling fan here) and were bought up by WWF/WWE in the early 2000s. There's no real competition to ignite that spark to innovate and put out bleeding edge quality. Neverwinter has DDO(Dungeons&Dragons Online) to compete with for which D&D MMORPG is better, and DDO is getting ready to launch a new expansion.
  • nrobbiecnrobbiec Member Posts: 675 Arc User
    edited March 17
    Response to moderated post redacted. -- WingedHussar
    Post edited by wingedhussar#7584 on
  • sirsitsalotsirsitsalot Member Posts: 1,619 Arc User
    edited March 17
    Response to moderated post redacted. -- WingedHussar
    Post edited by wingedhussar#7584 on
    I have no snarky remarks to make, at this time...
  • sirsitsalotsirsitsalot Member Posts: 1,619 Arc User
    I'll tell you an MMO I am starting to watch with more and more interest:

    Ashes of Creation

    It seems to be employing a lot of the concepts I have talked about in terms of node development, so clearly I've been thinking in the same terms as a professional dev team, so I am curious to see how well these concepts pan out in an actual live game environment. Of course, unlike Cryptic, they were crowd funded so they are not beholden to some publisher controlling the purse strings, that frees them up to explore more radical approaches.
    I have no snarky remarks to make, at this time...
  • wingedhussar#7584 wingedhussar Member Posts: 72 Community Moderator
    Guys? I get that you're mad about the Foundry shutdown -- truth be told, I share that opinion -- but advertising for other games isn't allowed.
    Spamming
    You may not create posts which contain:
    • Advertisements that have not been authorized by PWE.
    latest?cb=20171202101458

    ...THEN THE WINGED HUSSARS ARRIVED!
    Volunteer community moderator for the Star Trek Online forums. Not a Cryptic Studios or Perfect World employee.
  • ltminnsltminns Member Posts: 8,629 Arc User
    edited March 18
    Oy, vey.
    'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!
    Judge Dan Haywood
  • sirsitsalotsirsitsalot Member Posts: 1,619 Arc User
    edited March 18
    (flame/troll post redacted) - darkbladejk
    Post edited by darkbladejk on
    I have no snarky remarks to make, at this time...
This discussion has been closed.