test content
What is the Arc Client?
Install Arc

The Leaver Penalty has got to go...

2»

Comments

  • patrickngopatrickngo Member Posts: 9,812 Arc User
    brian334 wrote: »
    I think the OP presented an elegant solution: allow new participants to an in-progress event with an empty slot. If a palyer were to, say, shout to his fleet that he needed help in a particular TFO, some help might arrive like the proverbial cavalry.

    This, and in addition like patrickngo said, increase the rewards for the people who try and finish the queue.

    I don't know about any dedicated troll communities, but if they exist, isn't this something people should be aware of?

    They exist. just like in any other gamer biome there are groups of players who basically act as hecklers to the rest f the playerbase and thrive off of creating controversies and scandals, who derive personal fulfillment from hassling others outside their little circle of friends. Absolutely these groups exist, and it's absolutely against the terms of service to name them here.
    whatever.

  • viridian74#1359 viridian74 Member Posts: 43 Arc User
    In other words, the school bullies of STO.
  • patrickngopatrickngo Member Posts: 9,812 Arc User
    In other words, the school bullies of STO.

    did you think you'd find any aggregation of human beings that don't include those types? because you won't. Politics, business, art, media, your local church? yeah, those types are everywhere, they're everywhere and they don't stop, they just change their tactics as the means and methods refine (we call that 'civilization'), and it's not isolated to just the people you oppose, either. That self-righteous twit you love to laugh at, is laughing at you with a similar image in their mind.

    Because it's easy to be petty and cruel, and 'anti-Bullying' measures are great for sources of how to be a bully and get away with it by USING those measures, which is exactly why punishment by itself is not a deterrent whether you're talking about in a game, or in reality.



    whatever.

  • wideningxgyrewideningxgyre Member Posts: 457 Arc User
    If I leave a queue, I accept the penalty, so generally don't bother with trying to game it.

    But, it seems to me that if there is a loophole that switching characters doesn't apply the penalty, why don't the folks complaining about the penalty AFTER others leave the queue simply switching characters, as well?

    Second, except for the handful of queues that cannot be finished without a certain number of players due to the mechanics, if three players do not have sufficient fire power to complete the queue, you either need to fix your build or reconsider the difficulty level you've selected - or more than likely, both.

    There should be a penalty although the mechanics need to be fixed to close loopholes and eliminate penalties for players who've been abandoned. Both the AFK penalty and the leaver penalty need to be evaluated together to create a more balanced carrot-and-stick.
  • ussvaliant#6064 ussvaliant Member Posts: 724 Arc User
    Sorry to say op but if you're going to PUG a TFO you need go into these expecting to carry the other 4 players.

    Never expect a PUG to be filled with players that are skilled, geared or have the grasp of the TFO's objectives to complete.

    Leaver penalty is fine, you just got beaten bad by the PUG stick.
    maR4zDV.jpg

    Working in Customer Services is a lot like a Michael Bay or J J Abrams film. The story is all over the place, its contradicts its own continuity, it can be hours of mindless entertainment or boring subplot, with lots of noise, explosions and action, and is something you don't fancy viewing for a 2nd time 🤣🙉🤭
  • nixbooxnixboox Member Posts: 823 Arc User
    valoreah wrote: »
    nixboox wrote: »
    Except that's not what happens if they switch characters...as someone previously mentioned. So it is NOT working as intended it is punishing the people who stay.

    The characters who they switched from got the penalty. Working as intended.

    That they're not playing anymore so it doesn't affect them? Then, no, still not working as intended.

  • nixbooxnixboox Member Posts: 823 Arc User
    brian334 wrote: »
    I think the OP presented an elegant solution: allow new participants to an in-progress event with an empty slot. If a palyer were to, say, shout to his fleet that he needed help in a particular TFO, some help might arrive like the proverbial cavalry.

    This is a very Star Trek solution as well, as it rewards team play and cooperation while having the in-game excuse of, "We heard a distress call, what do you need us to do?"

    The funny thing is that you used to be able to do exactly this. They took away this ability because people complained that you could jump in at the last minute and get rewarded for doing very little. But I believed that jumping in at the last minute and helping save the day deserved a reward...particularly for people who jumped into a TFO that had already failed all its optional objectives.

  • coldnapalmcoldnapalm Member Posts: 7,154 Arc User
    patrickngo wrote: »
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    patrickngo wrote: »
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    nixboox wrote: »
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    nixboox wrote: »
    rattler2 wrote: »
    nixboox wrote: »

    It is not that way. Two people left the TFO I was in and we still got a leaver penalty. As I said, the penalty serves no purpose. It isn't a deterrent since, as you've already noted, people can just switch characters and not have to worry about it. The Devs need to remove the penalty altogether and reinstate the ability for people to join TFOs already in progress.

    That's because its actually only the last TWO to leave that don't get the penalty. Not the last three.

    Firstly, it applies the leaver penalty even if you left unwillingly. If two people are magically not enough to finish a TFO then three people can't be enough to finish the TFO either. That just reinforces the idea that the leaver penalty is unfairly applied because two of the three remaining people could simply stop playing waiting for the other person to leave...which is something that I've encountered numerous times in 10 years playing this game. The leaver penalty needs to be turned off if even ONE person leaves. Or do we really want to go back to timed TFOs that fail you for not completing it in under 20 minutes?

    WHAT?!? If two is not good enough, three can damn well be good enough. Unless everyone is piloting fail boats. Hell generally speaking...anything outside of elite, ONE is good enough. I have basically soloed gravity kills advanced. Yeah it took half an hour, but I did it. The leaver's penalty does indeed not penalize the last two...however, it does not recognize people who have switched characters as left the queue so if the first two players cheat the system by switching characters, everyone who is left will end up with the leavers penalty. Yeah that really should get fixed. However no leavers penalty means basically no reason for random TFO as everyone will just leave any map that isn't the old staple of ISx, CSx, KSx and god help you if you needed any other queue for endeavor purposes. So no, they need this system...it does however need to be fixed. Also make better ships that can solo maps and you never have to worry about what anyone else does.

    You can't have an uber-ship every time. We have to be able to level science ships too. We can't assume all TFOs are always going to be able to be completed with less than five players. Khitomer Vortex in particular isn't able to be finished with two people who haven't played before and the one person who has stuck in a T'Pau. The other players switch characters and then what? No fail condition means the game doesn't end...ever.

    The presence of the leaver penalty doesn't deter anyone if they know they can switch characters and leave without being punished. The people who stay are punished first by not being able to finish the map and then later by having the penalty applied to them. Removing the penalty is the only way to ensure that no one is unfairly denied access to the game.

    I ain't talking about an uber ship. I am talking about making a ship that isn't utterly stupid. The T'Pau is perfectly viable to be built out to solo queues...especially KSN which is a super easy queue. If you joined an advanced queue while complaining that you basically are in something not ready...well...than, I hate to tell you this, but your PUG was full of fellow leechers and the other two probably bailed because they didn't wanna carry you all.

    And did I say that we shouldn't fix that exploit? I said we need the leaver's penalty...I didn't say leave exploits around. Removing the penalty is a sure fire way for people to REALLY exploit the random queue system as they join random for extra reward and leave when one of the old always popped queue doesn't show up.
    nixboox wrote: »
    nixboox wrote: »
    If two people are magically not enough to finish a TFO then three people can't be enough to finish the TFO either.

    You were a little off the rails until that comment.. and now you have gone full blown nonsense.

    This idea is as bad as that statement. Maybe the system can use a revision, but removal is a bad idea for reasons so obvious we shouldn't even have to list them out for you. We have all been a victim of it from time to time, it happens.. move on.

    The system CAN use a revision which is why I started this thread. I'm not sure why everyone thinks removing the leaver penalty means anarchy and chaos. Removing an arbitrary punishment means people are more likely to try whatever it was they would otherwise have avoided. Add to that the ability to join a TFO already in progress and you don't have to worry about the legitimate players being deprived of the TFO they actually wanted to play.

    The Leaver Penalty only serves the purpose of encouraging people to find creative ways of circumventing it...and they have.

    Bull. You started this thread to remove the leaver's penalty because you wanna be able to bail with no penalty when things gets a little hard. You don't want the system fixed, you want the system removed so you can exploit the random queue system to get more shinies faster and leave if you don't have somebody to leech off from. Also having the queue pop people in an existing one is a GREAT way for them to get AFKed as they fail to do 1% of the damage as they pop in at the end of a queue. In fact this use to actually happen in CCA when that one use to allow people to get popped into already active queues.

    ANY penalty will have people find ways around it. That doesn't mean you remove all penalties from a game...you FIX those exploits.

    There's this carnie game, you might've heard of it; Whack-a-mole. The basic problem, Coldnapalm, is that your prescription doesn't actually address the problem, it's just as short-sighted as doing nothing, but with the added benefit of punishing people who aren't guilty, while completely missing the ones who are.

    the stick isn't working, maybe it's time to reevaluate the carrot.

    The stick isn't working because there is a tilt mechanism that lets certain players basically win without doing anything if they move the machine a certain way. Before that exploit was figured out, guess what, we actually didn't have the rampant trolling the random issue we do now. The stick was working fine...until it broke. So fix the stick. if fixing the stick is harder than making a carrot...than sure do that instead. But I doubt that is the case.

    The stick NEVER WORKED.

    I remember when they adopted it, within minutes of that update, people were already discussing methods to circumvent, and those methods were in place and acting within hours. nOt days, CN, hours.

    It never worked as stated.

    fixing the stick means understanding the problem-which is a tough one for the staff at Cryptic as evidenced by three months of retrenchment during the 2014 Tau Dewa Skillpoints fiasco-another case of the stick hitting people who weren't guilty, and missing those who were.

    The "Fix" is addressing what these guys get out of it-and making it more draconian and wide-ranging isn't the answer any more than wiring an electric death-arc to your driver's seat is going to stop a professional car thief, but could possibly roast someone you actually care about.

    the way to change the behaviour, is to make it genuinely unprofitable-and that means understanding what profit they're getting out of not only conducting, but encouraging, it.

    Making the behaviour unprofitable in turn means addressing not just the stick, but the carrot they're after. making it more broad ranging and draconian isn't going to do that.

    In a lot of ways, this resembles the tactics of the drug war. We've got longer and longer sentences for people caught with Narcotics and heavy involvement in border enforcement and drug detection...

    and heroin is cheaper in real dollars now, than it was in 1970, while more and more street thugs in foreign countries are millionaires thanks to the efforts to curb addiction and contraband with stiffer and stiffer penalties.

    it's similar, in that you're trying to control behaviours using only punishments that don't address the underlying issues.

    The stick never worked 100%...but neither will your carrot...or hell even a mix of the two. Will a mix of the two produce the best result? Yes. Do they have time to do that...probably not when they can't even keep the damn foundry open. And if given the choice of them working on either getting a replacement for the foundry or making sure that somebody RARELY does not get a false positive or then end up in a situation where the team needs to be carried and they have nobody to do it for them...I'm gonna go with work on the damn foundry replacement.

    And speaking of that carrot, let us see what happens when we use your carrot method alone with no punishment for bad behaviors. If somebody leaves, everyone else gets more loot...IF they finish. The person who leaves can join right back up with no punishment in place. Or hell to make it more effective, the pair or thee of them can. The troll in this case sees that they have 2-4 leechers who can not possibly finish the map without them. They quit. Those players remaining will NOT see the extra reward as they can't finish the map. The people who troll with no penalty can just join the queue again and start over with no wait time. The stick mostly worked when there was a 1 hour penalty and when the work around was not widely known. If you want less trolling, the carrot won't stop it...a bigger stick will. The REAL trolls don't leave a map if they can see that the people that are left can finish the map on their own. So...yeah no, what you suggest does not work.

    Oh and there are actually VERY few trolls in this game. You know why people leave queues? Because they bring a proper ship into the queue and see 4 other people who derp around in things that can't even put a dent in the mob of the difficulty they picked. I personally just carry their sorry behind and finish the map. But I know that with the level increase, the number of people who can do this is getting smaller...and those who still can are getting more annoyed as these people seem to want to do advanced more and more. I see more players in what I would estimate as sub 5k builds (extrapolated from my DPS compared to theirs on the map) in advanced than I do in normal. Hell generally speaking, normal runs WAY smoother as I see multiple other 50k+ ships on the map on a fairly regular basis vs rarely even one other on advanced. Most people who can run advanced alone and carry those leechers kinda got tired of it and do what I do and play normal now. At least if you have to leech normal...you REALLY need the help. I mean I still play advanced and elite sometimes...but it has gotten to the point where it isn't worth it to constantly carry 4 other people and extend a queue that should have taken 3-5 min out to 30+ min.
  • coldnapalmcoldnapalm Member Posts: 7,154 Arc User
    nixboox wrote: »
    brian334 wrote: »
    I think the OP presented an elegant solution: allow new participants to an in-progress event with an empty slot. If a palyer were to, say, shout to his fleet that he needed help in a particular TFO, some help might arrive like the proverbial cavalry.

    This is a very Star Trek solution as well, as it rewards team play and cooperation while having the in-game excuse of, "We heard a distress call, what do you need us to do?"

    The funny thing is that you used to be able to do exactly this. They took away this ability because people complained that you could jump in at the last minute and get rewarded for doing very little. But I believed that jumping in at the last minute and helping save the day deserved a reward...particularly for people who jumped into a TFO that had already failed all its optional objectives.

    No...people complained because you got tossed into a queue at the last min and got the even LONGER AFK penalty.
  • xyquarzexyquarze Member Posts: 1,936 Arc User
    As far as I know, none of these people ever got an afk penalty.

    How would you know if they did? How would you know if they don't? You may make reasonable assumptions about it, but unless you're close friends with some of these people, you wouldn't know. So drawing consequences from this non knowledge isn't more than guesswork. Which is fine, but please just say that it is.
    My mother was an epohh and my father smelled of tulaberries
  • coldnapalmcoldnapalm Member Posts: 7,154 Arc User
    Sorry to say op but if you're going to PUG a TFO you need go into these expecting to carry the other 4 players.

    Never expect a PUG to be filled with players that are skilled, geared or have the grasp of the TFO's objectives to complete.

    Leaver penalty is fine, you just got beaten bad by the PUG stick.

    Especially on advanced. A lot of the better players are abandoning advanced as it is over run with leechers since the random queue system. Your chances of you being the only on who knows a damn thing goes up dramatically in advanced. I run into quite a few people who know how to play damn well on normal these days...advanced...yeah I am gonna be soloing that map in a long haul. Take a wild guess what I do now. Course this is kinda terrible as normal now has use elite ready players in it...which means the poor newbie is probably gonna get AFKed more often.
  • nixbooxnixboox Member Posts: 823 Arc User
    xyquarze wrote: »
    First of all: the leaver penalty as well as the afk penalty need constant revision. And yes, this can also be a tastier carrot and doesn't have to be the stick itself.

    But they don't need to go.

    There are two problems with the penalty pointed out here: sometimes it does punish innocent players, and experienced gamers have found a way around it. Both of this needs to be minimized, sure. But neither of these is "maxed out", permanently happening, as this discussion seems to imply. And yes, I do think that scrapping the mechanic would mean "chaos and anarchy" if people find out. Because right now many people who otherwise would like to leave don't know about the exploit and stay. Not everybody knows everything about this game, and that isn't limited to builds. cf the thread we had about private messages a couple days ago. A simple command to answer and yet more than half of the people in the thread, mostly multi year veterans, didn't know about it. Sure, that one's a mistake in explaining how mechanics work, but I'm pretty certain they don't advertise their glitches either. But if it is obvious that leaving at any time without any repercussions is possible, people will just do that, not out of spite or for optimization, but because they can and probably think it even is what was intended in the first place. Also this is a way of communicating that behavior is not wanted, and some people do care. It's a bit like burglary: some people know how to get away with it. Some get accused of it wrongly (as has happened to me twice, which is why I chose this example). But that doesn't mean that getting rid of punishment would be a good idea.

    As for the T'Pau: insinuating that it isn't capable of holding its own is a sign of not having understood it. I will claim that any T6 ship and even any T5-non-U ship can be built without anything too intricate or expensive to hold its own in advanced queues. Not being great, but good enough that 5 ships of this type will win the queue. But if you want to be afraid, don't be afraid of Sci ships, be afraid of escorts being piloted by a Sci captain with a fully blown all-space-magic-no-weapons captain build.

    The T'Pau can hold its own...it just can't beat Khitomer Vortex by itself...and that's what it was trying to do.

    Leaving at any time without any repercussions is an excellent solution because it has no repercussions. If you find yourself in a losing situation, leave and queue for something else. If you find yourself left behind, leave and queue for something else. Everyone keeps going on about chaos and anarchy that people will just leave the queues and start new ones...but the fact that so many people keep bringing this up means they don't see a fundamental reason to play the TFOs in the first place. If the TFOs are a chore and the only way to get people to play them is to penalize them for not playing them then there's something fundamentally wrong with the system.

    I can go to Badlands or Gon'Cra or Dyson or Delta or even the TFO-ettes in Gamma and do a mission and get the reward I need to complete my reputation thing and I never feel like its a chore...I can do it alone or with others and its fine.

  • coldnapalmcoldnapalm Member Posts: 7,154 Arc User
    edited March 10
    nixboox wrote: »
    xyquarze wrote: »
    First of all: the leaver penalty as well as the afk penalty need constant revision. And yes, this can also be a tastier carrot and doesn't have to be the stick itself.

    But they don't need to go.

    There are two problems with the penalty pointed out here: sometimes it does punish innocent players, and experienced gamers have found a way around it. Both of this needs to be minimized, sure. But neither of these is "maxed out", permanently happening, as this discussion seems to imply. And yes, I do think that scrapping the mechanic would mean "chaos and anarchy" if people find out. Because right now many people who otherwise would like to leave don't know about the exploit and stay. Not everybody knows everything about this game, and that isn't limited to builds. cf the thread we had about private messages a couple days ago. A simple command to answer and yet more than half of the people in the thread, mostly multi year veterans, didn't know about it. Sure, that one's a mistake in explaining how mechanics work, but I'm pretty certain they don't advertise their glitches either. But if it is obvious that leaving at any time without any repercussions is possible, people will just do that, not out of spite or for optimization, but because they can and probably think it even is what was intended in the first place. Also this is a way of communicating that behavior is not wanted, and some people do care. It's a bit like burglary: some people know how to get away with it. Some get accused of it wrongly (as has happened to me twice, which is why I chose this example). But that doesn't mean that getting rid of punishment would be a good idea.

    As for the T'Pau: insinuating that it isn't capable of holding its own is a sign of not having understood it. I will claim that any T6 ship and even any T5-non-U ship can be built without anything too intricate or expensive to hold its own in advanced queues. Not being great, but good enough that 5 ships of this type will win the queue. But if you want to be afraid, don't be afraid of Sci ships, be afraid of escorts being piloted by a Sci captain with a fully blown all-space-magic-no-weapons captain build.

    The T'Pau can hold its own...it just can't beat Khitomer Vortex by itself...and that's what it was trying to do.

    Leaving at any time without any repercussions is an excellent solution because it has no repercussions. If you find yourself in a losing situation, leave and queue for something else. If you find yourself left behind, leave and queue for something else. Everyone keeps going on about chaos and anarchy that people will just leave the queues and start new ones...but the fact that so many people keep bringing this up means they don't see a fundamental reason to play the TFOs in the first place. If the TFOs are a chore and the only way to get people to play them is to penalize them for not playing them then there's something fundamentally wrong with the system.

    I can go to Badlands or Gon'Cra or Dyson or Delta or even the TFO-ettes in Gamma and do a mission and get the reward I need to complete my reputation thing and I never feel like its a chore...I can do it alone or with others and its fine.

    The T'pau can easily solo KSN and can even handle KSA. KSx is a simple queue. Unnecessary insults removed. -- WingedHussar

    So you think no penalty for bad behavior is an excellent solution. The best solution for stealing and murder is to have no penalty for it. Sounds like a wonderful plan.

    If you think playing the queues is a chore...DON'T BLOODY DO IT. You are doing it because you want the extra shinies. You want the extra goodies without the extra work to get those goodies. Unnecessary insults removed. -- WingedHussar
  • wingedhussar#7584 wingedhussar Member Posts: 72 Community Moderator
    All right, everybody calm the hell down and quit the personal attacks. If I have to come back here again I'm locking the thread and issuing warnings.
    latest?cb=20171202101458

    ...THEN THE WINGED HUSSARS ARRIVED!
    Volunteer community moderator for the Star Trek Online forums. Not a Cryptic Studios or Perfect World employee.
  • baddmoonrizinbaddmoonrizin Member Posts: 5,584 Community Moderator
    As there are no plans for the leaver penalty to go anywhere, and this is just becoming an argument... /Thread
    GrWzQke.png
    Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator
    Community Moderators are Unpaid Volunteers and NOT Employees of PWE/Cryptic
    Views and Opinions May Not Reflect the Views and Opinions of PWE/Cryptic
    Contact Customer Support --> https://support.arcgames.com
    Moderation Problems/Issues? Please contact the Community Manager
    Terms of Service / Community Rules and Policies / FCT
This discussion has been closed.