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Foundry Sunset, April 11th, 2019

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  • madhatch1971madhatch1971 Member Posts: 195 Arc User
    edited March 2019
    BUT if this means the Devs can spend more time on new content, I'm all for it.

    You must be very new to the game if you believe that's actually going to happen.

    I've been playing for 9 years, but I don't think I'll be here for 10.
    *rollseyes* I've been playing since the Beta - but way to be condescending.


    BUT if this means the Devs can spend more time on new content, I'm all for it.


    Sadly that is not the case. It's not as if they had a team of 10 devs working flat out on the foundry, they had nobody. The only time any dev resources were used was when it broke after a major update, which was most updates last year. Then they had to spend time fixing it, but whilst it was up they invested no time in it at all, and any assets that were added were done by devs in their own free time. So closing this will have almost no impact to the rest of the game except a resource draw when it would have broken.
    I get all that - already had that figured out. My point stands though, the Devs won't be diverting resources to fix it every time an update breaks it, which means they will be quicker with new content and general bug fixes.

    ***


    The Foundry was nice, but it was far from perfect and buggy as hell. If people want it back, then Cryptic would have to look at the subscriber model again - because if you want an MMO with all the bells and whistles, it's not going to be on a free to play one - we've been lucky it lasted this long after the move to F2P. It's not like the Foundry existed when the game first launched. Things change, and like most things in life you can't have your cake and eat it.

    The Foundry has had it's day - let it go with dignity, and move on. Or, TRIBBLE like hell. Makes no difference to me, and it won't make a difference to the decision that's been made. They don't have the people, time, money or resources to keep it going. I'd rather they focus on getting new content in game.

    Under the current circumstances, I think the Devs are doing a fantastic job. Rather than making them hate the player base, we should be acknowledging the time and work they put into the game - especially as they do so many things out-of-hours in their own free time (like all the new cutscenes in certain episodes).

    Thanks Devs - keep up the hard work. Most of us do appreciate what you do, and we thank you for it.

    People ask how long have I been playing STO - well the answer is simple: I have been here since the beginning. I just haven't always had a lot to say.
  • baddmoonrizinbaddmoonrizin Member Posts: 7,765 Community Moderator
    For those asking about it, I included a link to the livestream in the OP.
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  • cerritourugcerritourug Member Posts: 1,376 Arc User
    edited March 2019
    (Trolling comments moderated out. - BMR)
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  • themadprofessor#9835 themadprofessor Member Posts: 1,203 Arc User


    Seriously, folks. This is not the end of the world. The simple fact is that the old code is no longer fully integrating with the new code, and there's only so far you can patch before it needs a comolete overhaul.

    In this case, the Foundry code was written for an old version of the game, and with the many updates the game has had, a lot of which involved fundamental gameplay settings, the Foundry couldn't keep up as it was designed fort the older code.

    With the people who coded the Foundry gone, the only thing they've been able to do is basic patchwork, but eventually the patchwork isn't gonna be able to keep up with the main program. So out it goes.
    Space Barbie Extraordinaire. Got a question about Space Barbie? Just ask.

    Things I want in STO:

    1) More character customization options such as more clothing options, letting the toon complexion affect the entire body, not just the head. Also a true RGB color picker applied to all costume and appearance options, which would allow for true appearance customization and homogenous colors instead of "this same exact color looks vastly different on two different pieces."
    2) Bridge customization, not bridge packs. Let us pick a general layout and adjust the color palette, console appearance, and chair types, as well as more ready room layout options.
    3) Customizable ground weapons, i.e. The aesthetic look of phaser dual pistols but they shoot antiproton bolts. For obvious reasons this would only apply to standard ground weapons.
    4) For the love of Q please revamp Plasma Ground Weapons. They look like demented Supersoakers right now.
    5) True Vanity Impulse and Deflector effects similar to Vanity Shields.
    6) A greater payout for hitting T6 Reputations. Currently it takes more time and resources to get from T5 to T6 than it does to get from nothing to T5. Make that grind really pay out at the end.
    7) Mirrorverse Refugee event similar to AoY/Delta/Gamma, complete with new Mirrorverse recruits for all factions.
    8) Independent Faction, because yo ho yo ho a pirate's life for me!
  • tichepotato#4965 tichepotato Member Posts: 12 Arc User


    Seriously, folks. This is not the end of the world. The simple fact is that the old code is no longer fully integrating with the new code, and there's only so far you can patch before it needs a comolete overhaul.

    In this case, the Foundry code was written for an old version of the game, and with the many updates the game has had, a lot of which involved fundamental gameplay settings, the Foundry couldn't keep up as it was designed fort the older code.

    With the people who coded the Foundry gone, the only thing they've been able to do is basic patchwork, but eventually the patchwork isn't gonna be able to keep up with the main program. So out it goes.

    It's sad, but there's nothing to be done about it. I do sincerely hope that it is eventually fixed, but I wouldn't hold my breath.
  • duncanidaho11duncanidaho11 Member Posts: 7,623 Arc User
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    Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
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    Looking for something new to play? The interactive Foundry Mission Database has you covered.
  • crypticarmsmancrypticarmsman Member Posts: 3,920 Arc User
    edited March 2019
    (Trolling comments moderated out. - BMR)
    Formerly known as Armsman from June 2008 to June 20, 2012
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    PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
  • themadprofessor#9835 themadprofessor Member Posts: 1,203 Arc User
    > @tichepotato#4965 said:
    > themadprofessor#9835 wrote: »
    >
    >
    >
    > Seriously, folks. This is not the end of the world. The simple fact is that the old code is no longer fully integrating with the new code, and there's only so far you can patch before it needs a comolete overhaul.
    >
    > In this case, the Foundry code was written for an old version of the game, and with the many updates the game has had, a lot of which involved fundamental gameplay settings, the Foundry couldn't keep up as it was designed fort the older code.
    >
    > With the people who coded the Foundry gone, the only thing they've been able to do is basic patchwork, but eventually the patchwork isn't gonna be able to keep up with the main program. So out it goes.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > It's sad, but there's nothing to be done about it. I do sincerely hope that it is eventually fixed, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

    The only thing they could do at this point to keep the Foundry and have it be viable is to start an all new Foundry from scratch to get the coding in line with the main coding. But no, I'm not holding my breath for it.
    Space Barbie Extraordinaire. Got a question about Space Barbie? Just ask.

    Things I want in STO:

    1) More character customization options such as more clothing options, letting the toon complexion affect the entire body, not just the head. Also a true RGB color picker applied to all costume and appearance options, which would allow for true appearance customization and homogenous colors instead of "this same exact color looks vastly different on two different pieces."
    2) Bridge customization, not bridge packs. Let us pick a general layout and adjust the color palette, console appearance, and chair types, as well as more ready room layout options.
    3) Customizable ground weapons, i.e. The aesthetic look of phaser dual pistols but they shoot antiproton bolts. For obvious reasons this would only apply to standard ground weapons.
    4) For the love of Q please revamp Plasma Ground Weapons. They look like demented Supersoakers right now.
    5) True Vanity Impulse and Deflector effects similar to Vanity Shields.
    6) A greater payout for hitting T6 Reputations. Currently it takes more time and resources to get from T5 to T6 than it does to get from nothing to T5. Make that grind really pay out at the end.
    7) Mirrorverse Refugee event similar to AoY/Delta/Gamma, complete with new Mirrorverse recruits for all factions.
    8) Independent Faction, because yo ho yo ho a pirate's life for me!
  • crypticarmsmancrypticarmsman Member Posts: 3,920 Arc User
    nrobbiec wrote: »
    I do have to wonder what the actual statistics were for foundry usage. The impassioned responses from its devoted users is understandable but I would guess that it only attracted a small percentage of the games overall userbase. Maybe from a business standpoint it just wasnt worth the continued resource allocation? Given it did like to break a lot and was always missing many many assets.

    I do agree it is a shame to see it go but I would prefer actual missions being polished (and the ones being revamped coming back out) and for resources to be devoted to keeping the story going if I had to choose between the two.

    The main business issue with The Foundry as Cryptic saw it was that they could find no real effective way to fully monetize it. Thus, and Dev time spent on it was seen as a bad ROI.

    The above said, one thing F2P games require is a large playerbase, so those that do spend real cash on the game see/feel it's thriving. Having lots of players in the game (paying or not) gives a good impression to others thinking of spending money (IE you don't want to waste money on a game that - even if YOU like it - may not be around in the near future; and 'activity' is what most people go by.

    Thus, in the end, The Foundry was worth it in a sense because it kept a segment of the player population logging in.

    In the end, it remains to be seen how big a hit (if any) the active player population takes as a result of this.

    [And IMO Ambassador Keal's Livestream yesterday of - "We do LOVE the Foundry and the missions are being saved...and maybe one day...<--- Although at least he's more honest than most CM's in that he put a Valve 'Soon™' qualifier to it -- can still be taken with teh same grain of salt as what happened when they did the Doff UI rework (somewhat unpopular at the time) - and a Dev claimed - "But he, it ,means we can better integrate it into the Web-Based "STO Gateway" (Yeah, remember that?)...which itself was sunsetted after that. Bottom line: Whether the existing Foundry Mission data sits on an unused SAN somewhere in the bowels of a Cryptic rented data center; the Foundry will never be back...ever Kael's LS was an attempt to soften the blow, and try to keep some of the more vocal/aggrieved Foundry Authors who REALLY hate the decision.]

    Formerly known as Armsman from June 2008 to June 20, 2012
    TOS_Connie_Sig_final9550Pop.jpg
    PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
  • cerritourugcerritourug Member Posts: 1,376 Arc User
    edited March 2019
    (Discussion of moderation removed. - BMR)


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  • trygvar13trygvar13 Member Posts: 691 Arc User
    With the lack of content we have on the KDF side the Foundry was great. Tons of good stories for KDF and Gorn. With the current stream of TRIBBLE content we get it is just not fun playing anymore. With the Foundry gone I just don't know what I will be doing in STO. Same thing happened to the other game I really loved, City of Heroes/Villains.
    Dahar Master Qor'aS
  • pwecangetlostpwecangetlost Member Posts: 538 Arc User
    While I stand by my disappointment, Kael's discussion on the livestream outlining the issues and the attempts to overcome them make a lot of sense and I understand the decision much better now. Its a shame that it comes on the back of what feels like issue after issue tied to the game. Everything which is going on is giving me the Marvel heroes omega vibe all over again.
  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 9,815 Arc User
    CoH was shut down because its publisher, NCSoft, decided to shut it down. No other reason. It was, in fact, reportedly going strong, with a very loyal (and vocal!) playerbase. NCSoft just chose to no longer have a western-style-superhero game. Nobody but the suits at NCSoft knows why; there are tons of guesses, of course, but that's all they are.

    OTOH, we know exactly why the Foundry is being removed from here - because it was a pain in the tribble to maintain, had to be repaired every single time there was a game update, brought in no funding, and wasn't as big a draw as its fans seem to believe. (I think I ever played like maybe three Foundry missions; the writing was, shall we say, highly variable. I can't imagine my experience to be entirely unique.)
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  • crypticarmsmancrypticarmsman Member Posts: 3,920 Arc User
    jonsills wrote: »
    CoH was shut down because its publisher, NCSoft, decided to shut it down. No other reason. It was, in fact, reportedly going strong, with a very loyal (and vocal!) playerbase. NCSoft just chose to no longer have a western-style-superhero game. Nobody but the suits at NCSoft knows why; there are tons of guesses, of course, but that's all they are.

    OTOH, we know exactly why the Foundry is being removed from here - because it was a pain in the tribble to maintain, had to be repaired every single time there was a game update, brought in no funding, and wasn't as big a draw as its fans seem to believe. (I think I ever played like maybe three Foundry missions; the writing was, shall we say, highly variable. I can't imagine my experience to be entirely unique.)

    CoH was shut down because of ROI.

    No it wasn't losing money, but it wasn't a raving success. Most people who looked over NCSoft earnings reports figured the game was bringing in about $1 million in profit annually. The issue for NCSoft management was the fact that maintaining an NA studio in Seattle cost them a lot more then te ones they had elsewhere - and they figured if they took the funds they were putting into that and CoH into other projects, those projects would (overall) generate MORE profit than CoH had been.
    Formerly known as Armsman from June 2008 to June 20, 2012
    TOS_Connie_Sig_final9550Pop.jpg
    PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
  • trygvar13trygvar13 Member Posts: 691 Arc User
    40% is a lot, the Conservative party in the UK only has about 42% of the seats and it won the election so....
    LESS THAN.

    39.9% is less than 40% but it is still called 40%
    Dahar Master Qor'aS
  • baddmoonrizinbaddmoonrizin Member Posts: 7,765 Community Moderator
    trygvar13 wrote: »
    40% is a lot, the Conservative party in the UK only has about 42% of the seats and it won the election so....
    LESS THAN.

    39.9% is less than 40% but it is still called 40%

    Oi! Can we stop with this??
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  • willkirk1988willkirk1988 Member Posts: 4 Arc User
    We are all together STAR TREK, not Cryptic!
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  • lordgyorlordgyor Member Posts: 2,818 Arc User
    Bad decision, it's a huge reduction in potential game playplay options, its a huge step backwards.
  • roguealltrekroguealltrek Member Posts: 179 Arc User
    ee3452p wrote: »
    So saying that "the foundry can't be monetized" is wrong,
    No one was saying it can't be monetized. The problem is that the effort to bring it up to that level wouldn't be the return on investment since, like most other user generated content tools, it, and the things made by it, were only used by a small minority of the playerbase. Its much the same reason trying to monetize ship interior item packs to fund a ship interior player housing system don't actually work.
    ee3452p wrote: »
    Maybe just create a completely separate version of STO based upon the current live version that can use the foundry
    This is the last thing any game dev would do since that means they have to maintain another copy of the game, and it fragments the playerbase between versions meaning less usable activity for everyone.
    ee3452p wrote: »
    Just listen to the fanbase, give them what they want
    That would work if the fanbase was unified in thought. It isn't.
    -People complained about how bad the original story arcs were, and asked for revamped ones that were less terrible. Cryptic gave it to them, and now the people who liked the old story arcs are now mad.
    -People complained about how annoying it was to go to Task Force Omega, or Memory alpha, to do stuff, and wanted an easier way to do things like crafting. Cryptic gave it to them, and now the people who liked hauling over to Mem Alpha all the time are mad.
    -Some people really liked the Foundry and wanted it supported, many people didn't give two flips about the Foundry and would prefer Cryptic stop spending time on trying to maintain it and instead spend more time making content they use. Others obviously think the opposite.

    "Give them what they want" doesn't work when your fanbase wants everything, including contradictory things.

    And just why is this a bad thing? Why is it that in order to have one thing we must remove something else? Crafting some did not like going to memory alpha to craft and that is fine. For that matter if almost everyone did not like it and it needed changing is also fine. But why is memory alpha gone? What demands we destroy one space to give to others a system? In the end the presence of memory alpha would not stop the new crafting system but it would let the players that want the atmosphere of a dedicated place of invention and crafting have it.

    The logic of everyone cant have what they want even if contradictory is flawed. Can we have 2 different crafting systems? The answer is we still do. The old crafting system is still in place on the borg battlezone. So having a place dedicated to go to and craft is not some crazy ideal that must be removed cause look a new toy came out make sure to trash the old one. Now i am in no way saying to have and maintain 2 different crafting systems that would only be a wast of time and resources better spent else where. What i am saying is there was no need to remove the player space just hook up a console in memory alpha when interacted with that opens your crafting window. Every one wins this way.

    Some want and like exploration clusters some did not. Why force a one or the other choice on all players? Don't want to distract people with these spaces fine make one entry point to every cluster we had and just select what exploration area you wanted. But not how it happens just kill it and some time may be in the future we might give you something like this but improved. Yet where is it the foundry? We see what that is now don't we.

    Streamlining the missions and episodes was a great ideal. But its reality is less than ideal. Over the years we have lost many a decent and dare i say good missions. Some liked them others did not but why remove them from the game? You have the academy with worthless holodecks in its map past may be your introduction missions been some time from last i did a reg toon so not sure if its still even used in that. But use them hook the missions to the holodeck you dont even need to add them to the available list just for players that want to play them go here and select the mission. But something like that is out of the question and in regards to mission bugs and other such reasons its simple state no support of these missions is guaranteed play them at you own risk.

    I will shut up now as i have said plenty as it is that will prove worthless in the end. I can understand the shutdown of the foundry but i dont half to like it as one more removal and the game cant stand many more removals i feel and some never needed to go.
    To be or not to be: B)
  • nowizard24nowizard24 Member Posts: 2 Arc User
    I have now had the opportunity to watch the tribute stream and re-read my initial post in this thread, and dear Cryptic, I owe you an apology. I was way to harsh and quick to judge, crying outrage before getting all the information I can and seeing the whole picture - essentially, engaging in the very same thing that annoys me about the current web. I see now that this really hasn't been easy for you and me and a lot of other angry players aren't making it easier. I'm sincerely sorry for my behavior, I wish you all the best and hope that both games will do well. Peace and long life \\//,
  • drakethewhitedrakethewhite Member Posts: 1,240 Arc User
    trygvar13 wrote: »
    40% is a lot, the Conservative party in the UK only has about 42% of the seats and it won the election so....
    LESS THAN.

    39.9% is less than 40% but it is still called 40%

    Less than 40% means more than 35% and less than 40% (if not, then whoever said less than less than 40% was basically lying).

    Any number in that range however represents a significant amount of the customer base and no company would be willing antagonize more than third of their customers. For a company to end up with no choice but to do exactly that indicates to me that its a company with serious problems.
  • ashstorm1ashstorm1 Member Posts: 639 Arc User
    trygvar13 wrote: »
    40% is a lot, the Conservative party in the UK only has about 42% of the seats and it won the election so....
    LESS THAN.

    39.9% is less than 40% but it is still called 40%

    Less than 40% means more than 35% and less than 40% (if not, then whoever said less than less than 40% was basically lying).

    Any number in that range however represents a significant amount of the customer base and no company would be willing antagonize more than third of their customers. For a company to end up with no choice but to do exactly that indicates to me that its a company with serious problems.

    Nailed it.
  • drakethewhitedrakethewhite Member Posts: 1,240 Arc User
    edited March 2019
    Less than 40% means more than 35% and less than 40% (if not, then whoever said less than less than 40% was basically lying).
    How is that basically lying? Anything from .00000000001% to 39.99999999% is below 40%, there is no lie, or even a "basically" lie in there.

    Hmm... I don't think you read my post correctly (might be my fault, I typo'd a extra 'less than' in there). Want to try again?
  • ratan#4886 ratan Member Posts: 9 Arc User
    This is very bad news. Admittedly I have not read all the pages, but there seem to be a large quantity of unhappy people with this decision. So with that said, let me make a suggestion that might have been mentioned before....

    SUGGESTION: Make a launchable button to the Foundry that does not get updates..... much like Tribble and Redshirt is at least for the lifetime subscriptions. This way, content updates the main game gets will not conflict with what did work when they were written. Personally, I'd be willing to go back a few content versions just to play the foundry missions content creators have spent time at THEIR cost to create. This way, no needs to rewrite or diagnose code conflicts with new material will occur on your end, and thus remove man-hour costs (though I realize a dedicated server would be required of course).

    Thanks.
  • stoutesstoutes Member Posts: 4,219 Arc User
    edited March 2019
    Guys, don't argue it about percentages. Argue about the loss of functionality. We know it, less than.... meh.. symantics poootaato, potaaato. Meh.

    It's about the foundry, and losing it. Not about a subjective number.
This discussion has been closed.