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  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 10,354 Arc User
    Japan has built the Arleigh Burke class destroyers, as has Taiwan....
    [citation needed]

    The Japanese Kongo-class destroyer has an Aegis system, as does the Arleigh Burke, but that doesn't make them the same ship. And I can find no reference to any Arleigh Burke-class ships, nor indeed any other modern US Naval craft, being constructed outside the US at all.
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  • jrdobbsjr#3264 jrdobbsjr Member Posts: 431 Arc User
    > @seaofsorrows said:
    > I will just say that there are reasons beyond in game reasons why Romulans were given access to Allied ships. There is somewhat of an explanation given in game, and while it may be a little thin it just needs to be accepted for out of game reasons.

    I just put it down to being another example of why D’Tan is the greatest statesman in the history of the Romulan people, not to mention of any faction in his era. It’s pretty amazing what he can talk Starfleet and the KDF into giving him outright for Romulan hotties with SRO and Subterfuge.
  • trennantrennan Member Posts: 2,839 Arc User
    I keep waiting for the Alliance to fall apart, like all Alliances eventually do. However, I have to remind myself that it works on teh STO time line and not a progressive one.

    Beyond the Nexus firmly rooted the game timeline in 2410, as did the Future Proof arc. Right now we're lucky if it's early 2411 ingame. So the alliance by the STO timeline is only a year old.

    As to why the Romulans can use the other faction ships. It's cheaper and easier for Cryptic to allow that, than it is to create a whole line of ships for the faction.

    However, this works out for the Klingon side of things real well. Fed is only allowed 3 SRO's, as are Klingons. Only Roms can get 5.

    However with the Crit Chance(Space) perk from endeavor's, this is going to max out at 7.5% Crit, the same as having 5 SRO's. For KDF this means that can get the 7.5% Crit chance of the SRO's, but still benefit from seating 5 Pirates, for the +7.5% bonus all damage. Well, Fed's can get this same bonus, they just have to seat 5 cardassian boffs for it, or 4 cardi's and the tater head from delta.

    However, with how things are going, Crpytic is quickly backing themselves into a corner for the Alliance. Since the majority of bad guys are now good guys and friends, there's little left to actually keep the Alliance going. In the reality of the situation, only the Solane sphere is the only thing, outside of that, there's almost no reason for the Alliance to continue.
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  • trennantrennan Member Posts: 2,839 Arc User
    trennan wrote: »
    I keep waiting for the Alliance to fall apart, like all Alliances eventually do.
    We know the alliance continues until the 2769, the year the Temporal Accords are signed, and by that time both the Klingon Empire and Romulan Republic have outright joined the Federation. And the Galactic Union continues on until at least the year 3050, where Daniels is from.

    Though the Alliance/Galactic Union seemingly collapses by the 3200s, as per the Calypso short. That or the evolution of language causes the word "Federation" to become V'draysh.

    So we have another 789 years before we reach the collapse.

    We know there is an Alliance in 2769. However, we do not know what happens in that 359 years between now and then. Just because there is an Alliance then, does not mean it's the same one as now. Unless the galaxy spends the next 359 years at war with some greater power that requires it, the Alliance will eventually fall apart, as there will not be any need for it.

    Take the current alliance we have on earth, N.A.T.O. It was formed after WWII. Sure, it's grown in the past 50 years. However, as the countries that are involved in it tend to disagree more than agree on a course of action, it's slowly been falling apart. There have actually be calls for countries to pull out of N.A.T.O because its mostly been a waste of money and resources, due to the aforementioned inability to agree on a course of action. Which is what STO is missing, the factions arguing over a course of action. For example in the Iconian War arc. Here we have a klingon jumping through time like it's nothing. While in the earlier klingon arc, B'vat was hated for it, even his younger self hated him for it. Even if it was for the good of the Empire, he was still hated for it how he did, including the time travelling. To me, on this point, it would have been better to have the klingons arguing against it. But nope, Alliance, klingons are now happy, tail-wagging lapdogs, a complete 180 from the previous year.

    This is one thing they did right in TOS with the Klingon war. The bad blood remained. Kirk especially, as seen here when talking about the klingons.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bM_QDyr5NaM

    But then I also have to remember that we're dealing with CBS. I'm sure they'll crossing over into some fantasy land where everyone becomes, and stays, one big happy family, that lives happily ever after, with magic sparkly farts and all that. You know, the exact opposite of how things would actually go.
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  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,231 Arc User
    Being in an Alliance doesn't necessarily mean everyone starts using everyone else's things.

    Starfleet has its own set of ship standards which Klingon ships don't meet and vice versa.

    The fleet thing is due to how the game was originally coded to be Federation vs KDF. Its basically impossible to change that.
    True, but I for one trust the RRW more than the Dominion. Hell even the stiff necked, true neutral, Odo dicked over his 35+ long year GFs home planet, of which she was the leader of.
    Whats the worst the RRW has done, Obisek is a bit brusk and the gateway went wonky?


    I for one would love to see ships being made that features with touchstones of each faction. Like the arrowhead Federation saucer, klingon ships neck, and the double wings and nacells of the romulans. Streamlined and polished up of course.
    Look at the future ships. Their aesthetic is... "none of the above" or maybe bits of everything, hard to tell.
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  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,918 Arc User
    edited March 2019

    True, but I for one trust the RRW more than the Dominion. Hell even the stiff necked, true neutral, Odo dicked over his 35+ long year GFs home planet, of which she was the leader of.
    Whats the worst the RRW has done, Obisek is a bit brusk and the gateway went wonky?

    Agreed completely.

    One of the most ridiculous parts of the STO Story Line is the fact that we're still 'friends' with the Dominion following the Hur'q invasion.

    Odo should be rotting in prison for war crimes (he did orchestrate an attack on Bajor.. I mean c'mon) and the Dominion should be sent back to the Gamma Quadrant. It's ridiculous that Odo just says 'sorry' for calling the Hur'q to Bajor and we give him an office in DS9 and treat him like a friend.

    The Cardassians proved to be allies, but The Dominion was pretty much just typical underhanded Dominion Tactics. The Romulans are far more sensible as allies then the Dominion.

    D'Tan is trying to bring peace, Odo is a war criminal.
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  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,918 Arc User
    edited March 2019
    One of the most ridiculous parts of the STO Story Line is the fact that we're still 'friends' with the Dominion following the Hur'q invasion.
    Given that the Female Changeling orchestrated the mental breakdown of the Hur'q by herself(as far as Changelings go), and even killed other changelings to prevent the rest of the Great Link from finding out about it, why would the Alliance hold the Dominion responsible for the Hur'q crisis? Likewise, Odo similarly acted outside the knowledge or orders of the rest of the Changelings, so why would we blame the Dominion as a whole for the attack on Bajor? It's like saying the Federation should never be friends with the Klingon Empire because B'vat and Torg did really crappy things, ignoring that both were rogue agents from the Klingon Empire's actual administration, just like the Female Changeling and Odo were to the Dominion's administration.

    Not to mention that, while what Odo was did pretty crappy, it was fundamentally necessary to alert, and bring in, the Alliance into the Hur'q crisis the Female Changeling was trying to cover up via her manipulations of the Tzenkethi, and her stonewalling of Odo's efforts. An act that ultimately resulted in the saving OF THE ENTIRE GALAXY. Its literally "In the Pale Moonlight" 2.0, Odo does a really crappy thing, and lies to a whole bunch of people, in order to save everyone.

    I can get behind still staying on good terms with the Dominion, but excusing Odo I just don't like.

    The ends to not justify the means, how many people died on Bajor? Ok.. granted.. we don't have an actual stat on that, but we can assume that there were casualties both on the planet and from the battle.

    You do not earn an ally by cozying up to them and then orchestrating an attack against them.. that's frankly just absurd. As far as it 'saving the galaxy' that's conjecture at best. There is no telling when or even if the Hur'q would have actually attacked the Alpha Quadrant and assuming they did, it's pure conjecture to assume that the Alliance would not have defeated them.

    In the end, it was the Alliance that beat them, Bashir, Kira and even Garrik did more to actually stop the Dominion then Odo did. I accept the argument that staying on good terms with the Dominion is the sensible option, you have a point there. When it comes to Odo though, I still see nothing but a war criminal who should be in prison.
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  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,918 Arc User
    edited March 2019
    The ends to not justify the means, how many people died on Bajor?
    Literally zero.

    The Alliance stopped the Tzenkethi before they could attack the planet, and Odo's fleet came in before the Hur'q could finish off the Alliance fleet and attack the planet.

    And not a single Alliance ship was lost in the fight?

    Unlikely.

    Sure, the player survives as do the 'main characters,' but to think that not a single alliance ship was lost is a reach.

    They also attacked DS9 and there were certainly casualties there.

    Even if that was true, he still orchestrated an attack on the alliance and he should be made to pay for it.
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  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,918 Arc User
    And not a single Alliance ship was lost in the fight?
    You asked how many people died on Bajor. Not how many people died on ships above Bajor. Not getting into the very high likelihood of all of them dying regardless during the Hur'q war.

    Odo's actions very likely saved countless people that would have otherwise died during the initial Hur'q strike had he not done what he did. Had we not already had a decently sized fighting force prepared to combat the Tzenkethi, and had the Hur'q lure device not brought all of the Hur'q to once place for the Alliance and Dominion fleets to wrangle them all up right from the get go, the Hur'q would have risen from their planets, and spread out like a wave across the Alpha quadrant, attacking dozens of worlds that had no real defenses to stop them, and the Alliance wouldn't have been ready to respond to it quickly. Odo's actions quite literally minimized casualties as much as possible in the situation.

    Instead of dozens of worlds being simultaneously attacked, with no force ready to respond to it, we had a situation were only one planet was attacked, and there was already a fleet ready to defend it.

    Yes, but that is all conjecture based on the word of the person that started the war in the first place. :lol:

    It's apparent we're not going to agree here, I will respect your opinion but I don't see any reason to believe that even if the Hur'q did invade the Alpha Quadrant that the combined alliance would not have still defeated them. I also see no reason to believe that had the Dominion approached the Alliance honestly and explained their need that the Alliance would not have aided them.

    Ultimately, we'll never know since Odo made certain that entering the war was never our option. He made sure the Alliance never had a choice and he did it to save the Dominion. In my opinion, the fact that he succeeded does not absolve him of his nefarious and deceptive intent. I understand this is a matter of perspective and we differ in how we see this, but to me tricking someone into joining your war is not an act of benevolence nor is it in any way heroic even if you do end up winning.

    I accept your argument on the Dominion, it makes sense. But on Odo, I don't think we're going to agree. I understand and respect your perceptive, I simply don't see it the same way. :smile:
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  • trennantrennan Member Posts: 2,839 Arc User
    And not a single Alliance ship was lost in the fight?
    You asked how many people died on Bajor. Not how many people died on ships above Bajor. Not getting into the very high likelihood of all of them dying regardless during the Hur'q war.

    Odo's actions very likely saved countless people that would have otherwise died during the initial Hur'q strike had he not done what he did. Had we not already had a decently sized fighting force prepared to combat the Tzenkethi, and had the Hur'q lure device not brought all of the Hur'q to once place for the Alliance and Dominion fleets to wrangle them all up right from the get go, the Hur'q would have risen from their planets, and spread out like a wave across the Alpha quadrant, attacking dozens of worlds that had no real defenses to stop them, and the Alliance wouldn't have been ready to respond to it quickly. Odo's actions quite literally minimized casualties as much as possible in the situation.

    Instead of dozens of worlds being simultaneously attacked, with no force ready to respond to it, we had a situation were only one planet was attacked, and there was already a fleet ready to defend it.

    Yes, but that is all conjecture based on the word of the person that started the war in the first place. :lol:

    It's apparent we're not going to agree here, I will respect your opinion but I don't see any reason to believe that even if the Hur'q did invade the Alpha Quadrant that the combined alliance would not have still defeated them. I also see no reason to believe that had the Dominion approached the Alliance honestly and explained their need that the Alliance would not have aided them.

    Ultimately, we'll never know since Odo made certain that entering the war was never our option. He made sure the Alliance never had a choice and he did it to save the Dominion. In my opinion, the fact that he succeeded does not absolve him of his nefarious and deceptive intent. I understand this is a matter of perspective and we differ in how we see this, but to me tricking someone into joining your war is not an act of benevolence nor is it in any way heroic even if you do end up winning.

    I accept your argument on the Dominion, it makes sense. But on Odo, I don't think we're going to agree. I understand and respect your perceptive, I simply don't see it the same way. :smile:

    I like Garak here.

    G: "Odo, do you know what this device is?"
    O: "Yes, it summons the hur'q."
    G: "Oh, good! By the way, I sent one to your home world."
    O: "You did what?"
    Here it would have been better for Garak to have actually done a more...
    G: "Hahahah! Have fun with that."
    Where upon my character could nod and say, "Reap what you sow." and walk off, leaving the Dominion to get roflstomped.

    But this makes sense, and doesn't fit within the storyline. So, unfortunately we have to help.

    As to how many died. Well, we can estimate there. The dev stories that came out with it, point to Hathon being invaded and people dying. Then, just with the DS9 attack, having a good 60% of the station destroyed, we have to look at how it played out.

    1) It was just a normal day for both DS9 and Bajor, before the hur'q attack.
    2) DS9 alone, generally has upward of 2,000 people on the station.
    3) Hathon being a metropolis, though small in game, would be upward of 100K people easy, if not more. Given the 40 year difference, I'd put high end estimates of size around New York City.
    4) The ships in space. These will range from a crew of 50 to 5000, dependent on ship. Maybe even more than that given the size of some of the ships.

    So we can easily estimate the loss of life in the tens of thousands range. Which is basically wrote off as collateral damage. Because lets face it, the one thing the Federation has plenty of is cannon fodder.

    But this also opens up the question of the device itself. If Odo didn't know about the Hur'q in the alpha quadrant. How is it he was able to plant said devices in order to draw them to DS9, Bajor and Cardassia? This would require that he knew about them before hand. Which makes all of the Gamma Quadrant stuff a premeditated plan by the Dominion.

    Here you have to look at the fact, the female changeling was using the Tzenkthi to kill the hur'q in the alpha quadrant. Albeit, not in the best way, but still. But Odo used the hur'q to draw the Alliance in to the war. Which would actually make the female changeling a hero here, by the logic everyone is going with. She was actually attempting to prevent the hur'q from becoming active in the alpha quadrant.

    When you put it in to perspective, via the whole story, they're both bad guys. But, we side with Odo because, well, Kira's boyfriend can't be all bad, right?
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  • trennantrennan Member Posts: 2,839 Arc User
    edited March 2019
    trennan wrote: »
    As to how many died. Well, we can estimate there. The dev stories that came out with it, point to Hathon being invaded and people dying. Then, just with the DS9 attack, having a good 60% of the station destroyed, we have to look at how it played out.
    Incorrect. There are no lore blogs saying Hathon was attacked, or in any way damaged, during the Tzenkethi or Hur'q attacks. You are likely confused with the blog about the Hur'q attack on Karemma.
    trennan wrote: »
    1) It was just a normal day for both DS9 and Bajor, before the hur'q attack.
    2) DS9 alone, generally has upward of 2,000 people on the station.
    Both of these statements ignore that the Alliance had been warned of the Tzenkethi's upcoming attack on Bajor by the defector Neth Parr. They were already prepared for an attack beforehand. Which is, you know, how they had time to tow DS9 from the Wormhole over to the orbit of Bajor in the first place. The station had likely been evacuated of all nonessential personnel, and the people on the surface were in defense bunkers.
    trennan wrote: »
    3) Hathon being a metropolis, though small in game, would be upward of 100K people easy, if not more. Given the 40 year difference, I'd put high end estimates of size around New York City.
    Hathon isn't a metropolis. In fact, its stated to be a rather small rural village near some farm lands. Its nowhere close to something like NYC, or Boston, or LA. It is literally the Bajor equivalent of small town USA.
    trennan wrote: »
    4) The ships in space. These will range from a crew of 50 to 5000, dependent on ship. Maybe even more than that given the size of some of the ships.
    The Odyssey Class, the largest ship Starfleet has ever built, has a crew of 2,500. The Bortasqu', the largest the Klingons have built, maxed out at a crew of 3,600. None of them have 4-5 thousand on board.
    trennan wrote: »
    Which would actually make the female changeling a hero here
    Uhh no.

    The Female Changeling was committing genocide on untold billions of lives across the Alpha Quadrant in an entirely wasteful and unnecessary plan to cover up her own fault in the matter.

    Odo's plan put only one world in danger, while also ensuring that there was a sizeable Alliance fleet there to prevent any harm from coming to it, while also having his own fleet swoop in to help to further minimize casualties.

    The Female Changeling is many times more the villain in this situation. She went out of her way to maximize deaths, while Odo minimized them.

    Yes, we know of the attack on Hathon, but it's not that only place on Bajor.

    Provinces: Dahkur, Eastern, Kendra, Hill, Musilla, Rakantha, Lonar, Tozhat, Hedrikspool

    Settlements: B'hala, Hathon, Ilvia, Jalanda City, Janir, Jo'Kala, Kran-Tobol, Lasuma, Relliketh, Tamulna, Tempasa

    Even with my being wrong on the size of Hathon. The beacon drew the hur'q to the planet, not just that one place.

    As to the female changle, that was a typo on my part, I meant to say "could be seen as." I did say she didn't do it in the best way. However, you have to admit, it was the most efficient way to do it. The saying we have works well here, "Nuke it form orbit. Only way to be sure."

    However, we're still looking at a minimum estimate of tens of thousands dead due to what Odo did. Garak even mentions the Hur'q attacking Cardassia.

    It still leaves the question of Odo and the beacon though. Odo wanted to find out what the Link was hiding from him. Well, apparently he knew a good portion of it already. Or did he just happen to guess at what the beacon was for? Which he admits he knew what it was for, so the guessing part is out. Looking at it this way, the whole gamma quad story is nothing more than a coup d'etat to replace one founder with another. Odo just didn't have the manpower to pull it off. so, get the Alliance involved.

    Which leaves another thought. We could've left the Great link to its destruction. Then after solving the Hur'q problem, had the New Link replace the old one. Two birds, one stone, as it were.

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  • littlesarbonnlittlesarbonn Member Posts: 486 Arc User
    OMG, it's a game. :unamused:

    It's NOT a game. It's MY LIFE.
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  • baddmoonrizinbaddmoonrizin Member Posts: 10,246 Community Moderator
    azrael605 wrote: »
    > @littlesarbonn said:
    > baddmoonrizin wrote: »
    >
    > OMG, it's a game. :unamused:
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > It's NOT a game. It's MY LIFE.

    Thats pathetic.

    I think that was meant to be a joke. :smirk:

    (At least I hope it was.)
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  • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 9,427 Arc User
    Saying that Odo's plan caused any deaths at all is ignoring the big picture. The hur'q would've attacked somewhere no matter what. If Odo hadn't lured them to Bajor where the Alliance fleet was ready to kill them, they would've gone somewhere else for probably far worse outcome.
  • brian334brian334 Member Posts: 2,214 Arc User
    warpangel wrote: »
    Saying that Odo's plan caused any deaths at all is ignoring the big picture. The hur'q would've attacked somewhere no matter what. If Odo hadn't lured them to Bajor where the Alliance fleet was ready to kill them, they would've gone somewhere else for probably far worse outcome.

    And he didn't bother to consult with anyone or reveal the fact that he had a lure which could be used to create ambushes? Further, he could have lured them to Velara III, or some other lifeless world where the risk to civilians was minimal, with the tactically and strategically prepared forces in place and ready.

    Quite simply put, what Odo did was a false-flag operation intended to entice supposed allies into a war they may not otherwise have had reason to join. It was a war-crime.
  • jrdobbsjr#3264 jrdobbsjr Member Posts: 431 Arc User
    > @brian334 said:
    > warpangel wrote: »
    >
    > Saying that Odo's plan caused any deaths at all is ignoring the big picture. The hur'q would've attacked somewhere no matter what. If Odo hadn't lured them to Bajor where the Alliance fleet was ready to kill them, they would've gone somewhere else for probably far worse outcome.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > And he didn't bother to consult with anyone or reveal the fact that he had a lure which could be used to create ambushes? Further, he could have lured them to Velara III, or some other lifeless world where the risk to civilians was minimal, with the tactically and strategically prepared forces in place and ready.
    >
    > Quite simply put, what Odo did was a false-flag operation intended to entice supposed allies into a war they may not otherwise have had reason to join. It was a war-crime.

    It was an Act of War....,,on two separate incidences, the Dominion attempted to use other species to sterilize a Federation member world. It also amuses me how the Klingons seem ignorant of the Dominions role in the Hur’q And Fe’khiri attacks on them.

    Though the whole affair with Bajor does bring to mind what Sisko and friends did to the Romulans. You know, the more I learn about TNG and DS9, the more I realize Mikey Spock and ST;D may be real Star Trek after all......TOS is the aberration in a otherwise completely morally bankrupt Federation.
  • jrdobbsjr#3264 jrdobbsjr Member Posts: 431 Arc User
    > @somtaawkhar said:
    > jrdobbsjr#3264 wrote: »
    >
    > It was an Act of War....,,on two separate incidences, the Dominion
    >
    >
    >
    > People need to stop conflating the acts of individuals with the acts of the nations they are a part of.
    >
    > Odo is not the Dominion, the Female changeling is not the Dominion, both of them went behind the Dominion's back to do what they did.
    >
    > The Dominion had jack all to do with any of this.

    Using your logic, if....say.....the Russian Defense Minister ordered a nuclear strike on Los Angeles without any authorization, we should suck it up because Putin didn’t order it, amirite? Both of them held high positions in the Dominion, entire fleets had been placed st their disposal.
  • thay8472thay8472 Member Posts: 6,100 Arc User
    Didn't Odo send the PC (Jem) on a mission to board the Tzenkathi space station to rescue the admiral Tzenkathi who turned out to be the female changeling?
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  • xyquarzexyquarze Member Posts: 2,114 Arc User
    Not irrational at all. There were other things said (and not said) but since posting my side would apparently be removed for 'trolling,' I guess you win.

    I will just say that there are reasons beyond in game reasons why Romulans were given access to Allied ships. There is somewhat of an explanation given in game, and while it may be a little thin it just needs to be accepted for out of game reasons.

    Sorry, but you may well be right in content (and I am certainly not one to know), you are wrong in the approach. At least how it reads to me. Doubts may be justified, but the way you're posting this implies to me you treat these doubts as facts, which they aren't (yet). Cryptic has made a statement of what will happen when. You have doubts about its accuracy (which is fine). But don't treat it as fact until we're there.
    trennan wrote: »
    We know there is an Alliance in 2769. However, we do not know what happens in that 359 years between now and then. Just because there is an Alliance then, does not mean it's the same one as now. Unless the galaxy spends the next 359 years at war with some greater power that requires it, the Alliance will eventually fall apart, as there will not be any need for it.

    Gotta disagree here. The "common foe" is not the only reason for working together with neighbours. It could be anything from "as long as we work together we aren't killing each other" to "let's help each other out". While they're usually not called "alliances" in the same way, objectives may shift. After there is no enemy left, there may still be benefits from still working together.
    One of the most ridiculous parts of the STO Story Line is the fact that we're still 'friends' with the Dominion following the Hur'q invasion.

    You might think so, but evidence points another way. Western countries are still "friends" with some countries committing very questionable deeds indeed. I am not going towards naming too many, because this may hurt forum rules about not including politics, but I think everybody (no matter where they live) lives in a country with "allies" who just killed people because they disagreed or whatever. It probably was their own country to start with. So while we might consider this as "morally wrong", it absolutely is within the pragmatism of politics as we know them. It may not fit within Gene's vision of a future, but it certainly isn't "ridiculous" as in "won't happen ever".
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