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Why do we have to side with the Turei?

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  • trennantrennan Member Posts: 2,226 Arc User
    trennan wrote: »
    Even the Ferengi will buy and sell slaves, as long as those slaves aren't Ferengi.
    That was ended by Rom when he became Nagus and instituted massive reforms into Ferengi society between the end of DS9 and the begining of STO
    trennan wrote: »
    The Cardassians and Dominion are far worse.
    Cardassians overthrew their tyrannical government and replaced it with a democratically elected one that ended all the practices of the Obsidian Order and previous Military State.

    The Dominion only became allies just after ViL once the Female Changling was dead, the other Founder learned of her involvement in the creation of the Hur'q problem, and they not only agreed to stop doing those things, but also began instituting massive program to undo the Jem'Hadar's addiction to Ket White so they can be free.
    trennan wrote: »
    The Romulans, raiding and enslaving, now an ally.
    The Romulan Star Empire did that, not the Romulan Republic, and the RSE is still an enemy state.

    You just kind of proved my point, all of these races only became good once they stopped doing those things.

    And how can you call Starfleet good, when there's Starfleet General Order 24; the order to exterminate all life on a planet. This was issued twice, once by the glorious hero, Captain James T. Kirk.

    "General Order 24: An order to destroy all life on an entire planet. This order has been given by Captain Garth on Antos IV and Captain Kirk on Eminiar VII. On neither occasion was the order actually fulfilled. (TOS: "Whom Gods Destroy", "A Taste of Armageddon")" -Mem-alpha

    Of all the Factions, only Starfleet, the Cardassians, and the Dominion, leave it up to the ship captain as to whether or not they destroy all life on a planet.

    The Cardassians and Dominion are attempting to turn over a new leaf.

    Starfleet still has General Order 24.
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  • somtaawkharsomtaawkhar Member Posts: 6,120 Arc User
    trennan wrote: »
    Starfleet still has General Order 24.
    Gen Order 24 is a last resort measure if Starfleet runs into something so terrible it otherwise can't be contained without exterminating an entire planet.

    That's a fairly expected protocol for a nation that primarly sendso ut long range exploration vessels that are cut off from the rest of Starfleet for extended periods of time.
  • jrdobbsjr#3264 jrdobbsjr Member Posts: 419 Arc User
    Even though our own uniforms are stained red (, green, blue...) with the blood of a thousand slaughtered enemies we only butcher them in the name of JUSTICE and/or HONOR!

    That sounds like the sort of nonsense Sela spouts when trying to deflect criticism of her failed attempts at mass murder and general incompetence as a ruler. Your toon is a soldier, killing people who would harm their people is part of their job description. Deal with it;
    spiritborn wrote: »
    That's one of the reason I like the Hur'q as antagonists, they're mindless so it's justified why they're so clearly against our very existance, we're literally just something to devour for them and it's the only thing they care about.

    Actually, they are just one of many victims of the Dominion. I wonder if the real reason J'Mpok refused to help with VIL was because he was aware of the truth behind the Hur'q and the Fekh'iri (B'Vat would probably have been told about it by the Na'Kuhl) but couldn't says so because if the truth came out he'd have had to either had to personally lead a Crusade to Empora and sterilize it as just retribution for the monstrous (and completely unprovoked) acts against the Klingon people the Dominion now stood exposed as being wholly responsible for or face an immediate popular uprising that would end with his head on a pike.

    A KDF toon would have been obliged to tell J'Mpok about what they learned at that space station.....is there dialog for that for KDF players when they report in?


    Realistically, the Dominion planting that beacon on Bajor was a act of war against the Federation. If/when that got out it would have created a political firestorm back in Paris. For that matter, so would B'Vat's scheme with the Planet Crusher during the Klingon War. It seems to me that the elected leaders of the Federation don't have a lot of control over their own Foreign Policy.




  • somtaawkharsomtaawkhar Member Posts: 6,120 Arc User
    edited February 16
    Realistically, the Dominion planting that beacon on Bajor was a act of war against the Federation. If/when that got out it would have created a political firestorm back in Paris. For that matter, so would B'Vat's scheme with the Planet Crusher during the Klingon War. It seems to me that the elected leaders of the Federation don't have a lot of control over their own Foreign Policy.
    Technically speaking, it wasn't the Dominion who planted the beacon on Bajor. It was Odo, acting outside of the rule of the other Founders in a gambit to draw the Alliance into the Hur'q conflict since the Dominion's leadership was too prideful to ask for the assistance.

    Likewise, B'vat was a rogue Klingon. Even the actual servants of the Empire thank you for destroying the Doomsday Machine at the end of the mission because even THEY think B'vat's plan was crazy.
  • trennantrennan Member Posts: 2,226 Arc User
    edited February 17
    Realistically, the Dominion planting that beacon on Bajor was a act of war against the Federation. If/when that got out it would have created a political firestorm back in Paris. For that matter, so would B'Vat's scheme with the Planet Crusher during the Klingon War. It seems to me that the elected leaders of the Federation don't have a lot of control over their own Foreign Policy.
    Technically speaking, it wasn't the Dominion who planted the beacon on Bajor. It was Odo, acting outside of the rule of the other Founders in a gambit to draw the Alliance into the Hur'q conflict since the Dominion's leadership was too prideful to ask for the assistance.

    Likewise, B'vat was a rogue Klingon. Even the actual servants of the Empire thank you for destroying the Doomsday Machine at the end of the mission because even THEY think B'vat's plan was crazy.

    Even the younger B'vat hates his older self, and thanks you for killing him, even asks you to.

    Though, we really are starting to veer off topic here.

    However, the main reason you help the Turei, is Seven of Nine. She awoke the Vaaduar while Voyager was in the Delta quad. Forty years later, we're cleaning up another Starfleet mess.

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  • spiritbornspiritborn Member Posts: 1,601 Arc User
    spiritborn wrote: »
    That's one of the reason I like the Hur'q as antagonists, they're mindless so it's justified why they're so clearly against our very existance, we're literally just something to devour for them and it's the only thing they care about.

    Actually, they are just one of many victims of the Dominion. I wonder if the real reason J'Mpok refused to help with VIL was because he was aware of the truth behind the Hur'q and the Fekh'iri (B'Vat would probably have been told about it by the Na'Kuhl) but couldn't says so because if the truth came out he'd have had to either had to personally lead a Crusade to Empora and sterilize it as just retribution for the monstrous (and completely unprovoked) acts against the Klingon people the Dominion now stood exposed as being wholly responsible for or face an immediate popular uprising that would end with his head on a pike.

    A KDF toon would have been obliged to tell J'Mpok about what they learned at that space station.....is there dialog for that for KDF players when they report in?


    Realistically, the Dominion planting that beacon on Bajor was a act of war against the Federation. If/when that got out it would have created a political firestorm back in Paris. For that matter, so would B'Vat's scheme with the Planet Crusher during the Klingon War. It seems to me that the elected leaders of the Federation don't have a lot of control over their own Foreign Policy.



    Yes the Hur'q are a victim of the dominion that's why we help them in the end rather then wiping them out or going the Tzenkethi route.

    Route that doesn't however change the fact that before the cure the the hur'q were mindless and would attack anything at sight, while the way the Dominion secured our help was questionble at best, the fact is that hur'q wouldn't stop with the dominion, we know this as they had switched targets to AQ/BQ once already and nothing suggest that was clever anti-dominion ploy (or at hur'q were even capable of such ploys in their "feral" state).

    What I meant with the quoted section is that hur'q have a reason why you can't just talk to them to end the conflict that doesn't boil down to "they're so fanatical that they would rather see their race destroyed then make peace with you", the hur'q are more zombies is most horror films or games that have zombies victims sure but victims you need to fight for your own survival.
  • jrdobbsjr#3264 jrdobbsjr Member Posts: 419 Arc User
    Technically speaking, it wasn't the Dominion who planted the beacon on Bajor. It was Odo, acting outside of the rule of the other Founders in a gambit to draw the Alliance into the Hur'q conflict since the Dominion's leadership was too prideful to ask for the assistance.

    I got the impression Odo was working with, for a lack of a better term, the female Founder to convince the Alliance to help. He wisely doesn't trust her though, and once confronted asks for help finding out what her hidden agenda is. We don't ever learn exactly what her game was....for example why she tricked the Tzenkethi into trying to sterilize Bajor....but her machinations nearly led to the genocide of the Bajorans, a Federation member species, on two separate occasions. If this had become public knowledge, especially if one of the attempts had actually succeeded (in Odos's case, been botched as the plan was that the attack would fail), I think President Okeg would have a difficult time managing the political fallout, if it was even possible.

    Likewise, B'vat was a rogue Klingon. Even the actual servants of the Empire thank you for destroying the Doomsday Machine at the end of the mission because even THEY think B'vat's plan was crazy.

    Oh yes, B'Vat's plot was totally unsanctioned, and was diametrically opposed to Imperial policy regarding the Federation as outlined more than once by the devs. Even in the mission itself that is made clear by K'Men's presence at the battle to destroy the device. The very last thing J'Mpok wanted was to wage a war of annihilation with the Federation...but if B'Vat had managed to destroy a Federation Core World, do you think any of that would have mattered? Do you think Paris would have accepted the High Council's denials of involvement and repudiation of B'Vat's actions? I think not....not even if they wanted to.

    As far as the plan itself, it was so crazy that I have my doubts even B'Vat wanted it to succeed. Playing it a few times now, it's almost like he was counting on the player stopping him. Getting the cure from Miral Paris seemed to be the goal he actually was aiming for, and he succeeded at that. What was his real agenda? Have no idea, though for some reason the whole thing reminds me of Revolver Ocelot in the MGS series, who basically used himself as bait to to trick Solid Snake into taking out the Patriots to "stop" him from seizing control of them.
  • trennantrennan Member Posts: 2,226 Arc User
    edited February 17
    Realistically, the Dominion planting that beacon on Bajor was a act of war against the Federation. If/when that got out it would have created a political firestorm back in Paris. For that matter, so would B'Vat's scheme with the Planet Crusher during the Klingon War. It seems to me that the elected leaders of the Federation don't have a lot of control over their own Foreign Policy.
    Technically speaking, it wasn't the Dominion who planted the beacon on Bajor. It was Odo, acting outside of the rule of the other Founders in a gambit to draw the Alliance into the Hur'q conflict since the Dominion's leadership was too prideful to ask for the assistance.

    Likewise, B'vat was a rogue Klingon. Even the actual servants of the Empire thank you for destroying the Doomsday Machine at the end of the mission because even THEY think B'vat's plan was crazy.


    This is actually a hat-tip to what Sisko did to get the Romulans to enter the Dominion War. It would be considered a war crime. One that the faction leaders just blatantly ignore, because you know, "friendship is magic." like that. Personally the whole Dominion arc disgusts me, and I'd like nothing more than for the klingons to find out that the Dominion were responsible for not only the Hur'Q but the Fek'ilhri as well. This way, they'll get wound up, and we can just go remove the Dominion threat once and for all.

    Edit: Double Quote fix.
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  • somtaawkharsomtaawkhar Member Posts: 6,120 Arc User
    edited February 17
    I got the impression Odo was working with, for a lack of a better term, the female Founder to convince the Alliance to help.
    Na, Odo was trying to work AROUND the Female Founder because she kept stone walling him in all his efforts to stop the Hur'q because she didn't want her secret to get out. This is why she took the place of the Tzenkethi admiral, and convinced them to wage their war of extermination. she was trying to destroy the worlds infested by the Hur'q so the Alliance wouldn't get involved. If she destroys all the Hur'q in the Alpha Quadrant, and the Dominion locks down their side of the wormhole, she can keep the matter in the Gamma Quadrant, and out of the prying eyes of the Alliance who are likely to expose her.
    As far as the plan itself, it was so crazy that I have my doubts even B'Vat wanted it to succeed. Playing it a few times now, it's almost like he was counting on the player stopping him. Getting the cure from Miral Paris seemed to be the goal he actually was aiming for, and he succeeded at that. What was his real agenda? Have no idea, though for some reason the whole thing reminds me of Revolver Ocelot in the MGS series, who basically used himself as bait to to trick Solid Snake into taking out the Patriots to "stop" him from seizing control of them.
    The Klingon who helps you out in that mentions that B'Vat has knowledge of the future given to him via an ancient sect of Klingons who got the knowledge from the Na'Kuhl during the Enterprise Era portion of the Temporal Cold War. This Klingon also muses that if he truly does know the future, does this means all of our fates are set, and we are nothing more then slaves of time or w/e. At the end of the arc, when we go into the past, and encounter B'Vat's younger self, he questions what could make him so dishonorable in the future.

    While it isn't ever explicitly stated, the arc has always led me to believe that B'Vat does what he does as part of some giant pre-destination paradox. He isn't truly evil, or insane, he just does all this because he knows he has to in order to set up kidnapping Miral Paris, and allowing her to complete her destiny as the Kuvah'Magh so she can cure the Klingon people of the Augment Virus.
    trennan wrote: »
    This is actually a hat-tip to what Sisko did to get the Romulans to enter the Dominion War. It would be considered a war crime. One that the faction leaders just blatantly ignore, because you know, "friendship is magic." like that. Personally the whole Dominion arc disgusts me, and I'd like nothing more than for the klingons to find out that the Dominion were responsible for not only the Hur'Q but the Fek'ilhri as well. This way, they'll get wound up, and we can just go remove the Dominion threat once and for all.
    It's more like "The Hur'q are a force so powerful we can't pick and chose our allies right now since we need everyone we can get to keep them at bay".

    Besides, by the end of the arc
    -The Female Changeling who started all this is dead
    -Before her death she admits she kept it from the other Founders, even going so far as to kill some of them to hide it, absolving them of guilt
    -The Hur'q are cured of their madness, ending the threat
    -The Dominion takes measures to end their enslavement of the Jem'Hadar, and to turn a new leaf in other areas
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 34,055 Arc User
    trennan wrote: »
    Turei: "We are under attack! Please help us!"

    Me: "Is this true?"

    Turei: "Yes! Don't you see the explosions?"

    Me: *nods* "Why not just hide in underspace like the rest of your people?"

    Turei: "That makes sense! Let's do it!"

    Alliance leadership: "You did something that made sense! You're FIRED!"

    Me: "YAY! A vacation from you numbskulls!"
    Actually... this is stupid for two reasons:
    1: the Turei can't move their homeworld into Underspace

    2: the Turei learned how to navigate Underspace by stealing the tech... FROM THE VAADWAUR! Yes, really. If the Turei hide in Underspace it might make it take a little longer for the Vaadwaur to hunt them down. We don't really know how thorough Vaadwaur surveillance of Underspace is at present. Which is probably why the Turei chose NOT to hide in Underspace. The Vaadwaur are the one race that you will NOT hide from by entering Underspace.
    spiritborn wrote: »
    tyler002 wrote: »
    spiritborn wrote: »
    As I mentioned before while our captains have a rather large body count, few if any of those deaths were at all avoidble, I can't think of any UFP (including AoY and AoD), KDF or RRN mission where our character willingly and knowingly and without any provocation slaughtered defenseless targets.
    Closest we go the doing that was "That" mission, where we were slaughtering scientists and doctors against the objections of our own officers and reacted to learning the truth by slaughtering even more.
    Yeah and that mission has since been removed, not mention even when it was avaible it felt really off compared to the rest of the story.
    Even then the mission was explicit in that your character went in believing that it was a military target. You find out after the fact that it's a RSE facility researching anti-Undine technology.

    The justification for fighting your way out is that the Romulans don't know WHY the facility was attacked and don't realize that an Undine used the situation as an opportunity to infiltrate the Tal'Shiar.

    I once go the chance to ask Kestral why it was written that way and she said that it was storyboarded as part 1 of 3(ish) and that the story would have had you hunt down the Undine impersonating Zelle in retaliation for tricking you into attacking the facility. The follow ups just never got made because other things had higher priority.
    spiritborn wrote: »
    I might be in the minority but I find the "evil for the sake of being evil" dark side stories to be really boring.
    One thing I have always liked is that outside of Hakeev, and the Breen, the villains of STO are typically not that.
    Even Hakeev is only like that on the surface. His actual goal, laughable as it may be, is to make the RSE(and whoever is a slave of the RSE) into Iconian servitors and thus safe when the Iconians inevitably decide it's time to rule the galaxy. Kinda like they do in the Iconian war arc. If Hakeev's plan had worked, his forces would have fought alongside the Heralds not against them. There is evidence that this is actually possible since the Iconians break Taris out of prison and take her to Andromeda.
    trennan wrote: »
    The Romulans, raiding and enslaving, now an ally.
    The Romulan Star Empire did that, not the Romulan Republic, and the RSE is still an enemy state.

    You just kind of proved my point, all of these races only became good once they stopped doing those things.
    The KDF lore in STO suggests that they still do that. Their status as Alliance members means they only raid their allies if the allies misbehave. IE, get caught in the wrong part of Klingon space and you might get sold as slave labor, among other reasons.
    Likewise, B'vat was a rogue Klingon. Even the actual servants of the Empire thank you for destroying the Doomsday Machine at the end of the mission because even THEY think B'vat's plan was crazy.
    Oh yes, B'Vat's plot was totally unsanctioned, and was diametrically opposed to Imperial policy regarding the Federation as outlined more than once by the devs. Even in the mission itself that is made clear by K'Men's presence at the battle to destroy the device. The very last thing J'Mpok wanted was to wage a war of annihilation with the Federation...but if B'Vat had managed to destroy a Federation Core World, do you think any of that would have mattered? Do you think Paris would have accepted the High Council's denials of involvement and repudiation of B'Vat's actions? I think not....not even if they wanted to.

    As far as the plan itself, it was so crazy that I have my doubts even B'Vat wanted it to succeed. Playing it a few times now, it's almost like he was counting on the player stopping him. Getting the cure from Miral Paris seemed to be the goal he actually was aiming for, and he succeeded at that. What was his real agenda? Have no idea, though for some reason the whole thing reminds me of Revolver Ocelot in the MGS series, who basically used himself as bait to to trick Solid Snake into taking out the Patriots to "stop" him from seizing control of them.
    I suspect this is why he's retconned as a Na'kuhl collaborator later.
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
    Costume_marhawkman_Tsin%27xing_CC_Comic_Page_Blue_488916968.jpg
  • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 8,705 Arc User
    trennan wrote: »
    Realistically, the Dominion planting that beacon on Bajor was a act of war against the Federation. If/when that got out it would have created a political firestorm back in Paris. For that matter, so would B'Vat's scheme with the Planet Crusher during the Klingon War. It seems to me that the elected leaders of the Federation don't have a lot of control over their own Foreign Policy.
    Technically speaking, it wasn't the Dominion who planted the beacon on Bajor. It was Odo, acting outside of the rule of the other Founders in a gambit to draw the Alliance into the Hur'q conflict since the Dominion's leadership was too prideful to ask for the assistance.

    Likewise, B'vat was a rogue Klingon. Even the actual servants of the Empire thank you for destroying the Doomsday Machine at the end of the mission because even THEY think B'vat's plan was crazy.


    This is actually a hat-tip to what Sisko did to get the Romulans to enter the Dominion War. It would be considered a war crime. One that the faction leaders just blatantly ignore, because you know, "friendship is magic."
    Do they?

    Who tells them? Only non-Dominion who know about it are Kira, Garak and the player character (unless you're jem'hadar, then not even him) who all agree to help with the plan.
  • jrdobbsjr#3264 jrdobbsjr Member Posts: 419 Arc User
    > @warpangel said:
    > Do they?
    >
    > Who tells them? Only non-Dominion who know about it are Kira, Garak and the player character (unless you're jem'hadar, then not even him) who all agree to help with the plan.

    Kira and the player are Officers, and Duty bound to report information of this gravity to their superiors. Garak is a member of the Ruling Council of his people.....he was just as duty bound to warn the rest of the Detapa Council about this, if not more so, given Cardassia Prime had already been attacked. As no dialog exists of them agreeing to keep silent, one can only assume they did so.

    Also, if they didn’t......if the Dominion deployed another beacon....any deaths in the subsequent attack would be their responsibility. I can’t see either Kira or Garak taking that chance. I know I wouldn’t.
  • baddmoonrizinbaddmoonrizin Member Posts: 6,039 Community Moderator
    Ah, @patrickngo . I knew that the forums seemed way too calm lately. Welcome back! Where have you been? :smirk:
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  • jrdobbsjr#3264 jrdobbsjr Member Posts: 419 Arc User
    > @patrickngo said:
    > markhawkman wrote: »
    >
    > davefenestrator wrote: »
    >
    > ... well, I feel ** the missions ** just aren't presenting the options my Captain would actually make. I'd far rather ally with the Vaarduwar that the Turei or (via association with the Turei) the Voth.
    >
    >
    >
    > As already mentioned it boils down to the fact that there is no "evil" or "dark side" story path in STO.
    >
    > Vaadwaur are genocidal pawns of the also genocidal Iconians. Even though our own uniforms are stained red (, green, blue...) with the blood of a thousand slaughtered enemies we only butcher them in the name of JUSTICE and/or HONOR!
    >
    >
    >
    > Yeah as heroes we don't get to make any choices that are actually BAD, merely morally ambiguous. While the Kobali do a few things that are objectionable, the Vaadwaur are far worse. If the player(and the Voth) hadn't protected the Turei, then the Vaadwaur would likely have subjugated or killed them.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > you're over thinking it. we don't make any choices. full stop. Your character follows a puppet-rail and makes zero choices, with zero thought and zero consideration.
    >
    > this is because your character is just a janitor using the holosuites to live out someone's fantasies. at no point do you ever make a decision in-character, and that largely extends even to what your character says. Even with Romulan or Jemmie characters, this is true, because even if you choose to ally with KDF, you will do exactly the same thing you would have done, in exactly the same way, as the Federation born main character of the holodrama you're playing, with the only difference being that in-game currency is harder to generate and you get a smaller selection of ships with more reliance on lockboxes (and everything costs more).
    >
    > what the OP is complaining about is inherent to how Cryptic has structured the PvE side of the game-you have zero agency, basically you're the only dispensible thing in the entire structure.

    Given the appearance of the average toon, the character is more likely the teenaged distant descendant of MXR, the Fallout/Skyrim mod reviewer on You Tube. Lol
  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,464 Arc User
    Ah, @patrickngo . I knew that the forums seemed way too calm lately. Welcome back! Where have you been? :smirk:

    In the Discovery threads in 10 Forward, IIRC. :p
    Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
  • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 8,705 Arc User
    Kira and the player are Officers, and Duty bound to report information of this gravity to their superiors. Garak is a member of the Ruling Council of his people.....he was just as duty bound to warn the rest of the Detapa Council about this, if not more so, given Cardassia Prime had already been attacked. As no dialog exists of them agreeing to keep silent, one can only assume they did so.
    Just like they told on Sisko doing the same for the romulans? For that matter, Garak did most of the dirty work on "In The Pale Moonlight," including finally assassinating the romulan diplomat himself when he didn't fall for the forgery.

    Yeah, no. They agreed with the plan and went along with it, because it's what needed to be done. Same with the player. Nothing of value would've been accomplished with ruining the plan by telling the politicians.

    Most of the ViL storyline is DS9ish that way. No surprise, it being the DS9 expansion.
  • jrdobbsjr#3264 jrdobbsjr Member Posts: 419 Arc User
    > @warpangel said:
    > jrdobbsjr#3264 wrote: »
    >
    > Kira and the player are Officers, and Duty bound to report information of this gravity to their superiors. Garak is a member of the Ruling Council of his people.....he was just as duty bound to warn the rest of the Detapa Council about this, if not more so, given Cardassia Prime had already been attacked. As no dialog exists of them agreeing to keep silent, one can only assume they did so.
    >
    >
    >
    > Just like they told on Sisko doing the same for the romulans? For that matter, Garak did most of the dirty work on "In The Pale Moonlight," including finally assassinating the romulan diplomat himself when he didn't fall for the forgery.
    >
    > Yeah, no. They agreed with the plan and went along with it, because it's what needed to be done. Same with the player. Nothing of value would've been accomplished with ruining the plan by telling the politicians.
    >
    > Most of the ViL storyline is DS9ish that way. No surprise, it being the DS9 expansion.

    So, because they engaged in a criminal conspiracy once, they automatically did it again? Well, they do say the first time is always the hardest. Lol. I have to wonder what their beef with Section 31 was....the only difference between them is Section 31 was at least honest about what they were.
  • ltminnsltminns Member Posts: 9,384 Arc User
    Let's violate General Order 7 and seed Talosians all over the place. Forget about 24. ;)

    One of my Characters still has 'Divide et Impera' in the 'In Progress' Tab.
    'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!
    Judge Dan Haywood
  • somtaawkharsomtaawkhar Member Posts: 6,120 Arc User
    So, because they engaged in a criminal conspiracy once, they automatically did it again? Well, they do say the first time is always the hardest. Lol. I have to wonder what their beef with Section 31 was....the only difference between them is Section 31 was at least honest about what they were.
    Section 31 attempted genocide. Sisko and Garak killed one criminal, one Romulan senator, and the self respect of one Starfleet officer.
  • trennantrennan Member Posts: 2,226 Arc User
    So, because they engaged in a criminal conspiracy once, they automatically did it again? Well, they do say the first time is always the hardest. Lol. I have to wonder what their beef with Section 31 was....the only difference between them is Section 31 was at least honest about what they were.
    Section 31 attempted genocide. Sisko and Garak killed one criminal, one Romulan senator, and the self respect of one Starfleet officer.

    Sisko also poisoned the atmosphere of Solosus III, i.e. used a biogenic weapon, so attempted genocide is in his repertoire as well.
    Cheating_zps1brwslhb.jpg
  • somtaawkharsomtaawkhar Member Posts: 6,120 Arc User
    trennan wrote: »
    Sisko also poisoned the atmosphere of Solosus III, i.e. used a biogenic weapon, so attempted genocide is in his repertoire as well.
    Technically speaking, he gave everyone there ample time to leave, and even after the missiles were launched, they still had time to leave the planet. He didn't attempt to kill anyone, nor did anyone die from it that we know of.

    It was still a war crime, but it wasn't attempted genocide.
  • trennantrennan Member Posts: 2,226 Arc User
    trennan wrote: »
    Sisko also poisoned the atmosphere of Solosus III, i.e. used a biogenic weapon, so attempted genocide is in his repertoire as well.
    Technically speaking, he gave everyone there ample time to leave, and even after the missiles were launched, they still had time to leave the planet. He didn't attempt to kill anyone, nor did anyone die from it that we know of.

    It was still a war crime, but it wasn't attempted genocide.

    We can make a safe assumption that there were casualties. It was a Maqis planet at the time, and they were steadfast in not backing down before the Federation or the Cardassians. They wouldn't have left because of such a warning. Quite the opposite really, they would have stayed as a means of saying, "Go ahead, we dare you."

    We just don't know exactly how many humans died because of it as all. Given the size of the Maqis at the time, we could estimate a few thousand.

    In either case, still a war crime. One of the reasons Sisko is hiding in the wormhole, instead of facing up to his list of charges and put on trial.
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  • tyler002tyler002 Member Posts: 1,523 Arc User
    Depends on how quickly they reacted after realizing he was serious and how fast-acting the weapon was.

    Considering Eddington did the same thing to the Cardassians and Starfleet only gave him jail time, there probably wasn't much of a body count.
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  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 34,055 Arc User
    .
    trennan wrote: »
    trennan wrote: »
    Sisko also poisoned the atmosphere of Solosus III, i.e. used a biogenic weapon, so attempted genocide is in his repertoire as well.
    Technically speaking, he gave everyone there ample time to leave, and even after the missiles were launched, they still had time to leave the planet. He didn't attempt to kill anyone, nor did anyone die from it that we know of.

    It was still a war crime, but it wasn't attempted genocide.
    We can make a safe assumption that there were casualties. It was a Maqis planet at the time, and they were steadfast in not backing down before the Federation or the Cardassians. They wouldn't have left because of such a warning. Quite the opposite really, they would have stayed as a means of saying, "Go ahead, we dare you."

    We just don't know exactly how many humans died because of it as all. Given the size of the Maqis at the time, we could estimate a few thousand.

    In either case, still a war crime. One of the reasons Sisko is hiding in the wormhole, instead of facing up to his list of charges and put on trial.
    The weirdest part of the episode is why the substance used(trilithium resin) is described as a "biogenic weapon". But the definition of "biogenic" used in Star Trek by the Federation seems to include pretty much anything that reacts with organic tissue. The actual properties of the substance as described in dialog more closely match the RW description of "toxic waste" than "bioweapon". This includes the fact that the concentration used is not immediately fatal and is at first merely unpleasant. It would take DAYS of exposure to kill anyone.

    Anyways, Solosos is in the DMZ, not Federation space.

    The thing people forget about the episode, is that the Les Misérables comparisons were NOT accurate. Eddington was playing mind games in an attempt to get Sisko to back down, but Eddington's actions were criminal behavior worthy of execution. The #1 thing to remember about Eddington's plan is the reason WHY he was doing it. He felt that peace with the Cardassians was a mistake and wanted to dictate the terms of the relationship between the UFP and the CU.

    If Sisko had an opportunity to, he would have been justified in simply shooting and killing Eddington. But Eddington hid behind dozens of Maquis cohorts as the mastermind rather than doing the dangerous part of the job himself. Ultimately the bombing of Solosus was Sisko's way of challenging Eddington to prove that he actually cared about the Maquis since he'd been treating them like expendable pawns in a game. Also Sisko made a point that If Eddington didn't stop the Cardassians would retaliate by simply glassing the colonies, thus killing pretty much everyone.
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    My character Tsin'xing
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  • trennantrennan Member Posts: 2,226 Arc User
    edited February 19
    patrickngo wrote: »
    Ah, @patrickngo . I knew that the forums seemed way too calm lately. Welcome back! Where have you been? :smirk:

    making discovery fans miserable by threatening their dogmas and questioning their ideals. (A bit like messing with those missionaries who show up at your door to 'Bring you the Good News', only I don't need a black robe and a Pentagram to make them upset.)

    but I was actually somewhat serious in my post-the underlying issue for the OP, looks to be a question of player agency. instead of having Moral Choice A vs. Moral Choice B, as a player character you have "Moral Choice Do-what-you're-told", and that's all you get.

    If you don't want to grind PvE queues early and often, you don't get to tell, for example, Daniels to go pound sand when he wants you to drop everything to go deal with the latest threat to the pre-destined future of the Federation-uber-alles.

    Likewise, you don't get the option of refusing to continue helping the Kobali when you find out that not only is their war of their own doing, but they've been sitting on hostages and killing-via-neglect beings who did nothing to them. (ths in turn being excused because "Vaadwuar are EVIL!!! all VaadWuarz is EVIL!!" and while we're interfering in a war between two soveriegn species, we can't interfere with this because it's interference).

    The one or two times in the entire game you as a player actually get to make a decision instead of doing what you're told, the decisions end up being entirely irrelevant and have zero impact.

    ("Operation Gamma" when you dust the crook ferengi-or don't)

    Or have a defined and obvious answer (Choose Federation for your romulan, because the other option has nothing going for it and you're going to be doing exactly the same things for exactly the same reasons with exactly the same dialogue afterward anyway.)

    See, he's mistaken a third-person-shooter-on-rails for a role playing game. EVERY faction has teh exact same story after the start zone, and there is no agency involved in any of it beyond "Do I take the faction with poorer options, or the faction with better options to run through the same grind?"

    This becomes really apparent when you consider that most of the later content only accounts for the 'faction abilities' of KDF and Romulans by injecting cloak-interrupts or freezing the mission if you try to sneak past a picket or actually USE any non-pre-scripted stealth options, because thre is literally only ONE way to progress, and that's the same script regardless of irrelevancies like career, species, or "Faction" (in quotes because it has, again, zero impact on what missions you are offered or which missions you can't avoid taking,or even which positions you are allowed as a character to believe in, hold, or serve.)

    Because the game is a shooter. this is also why people click through the dialogue as fast as possible-it never changes or means anything.

    it's a fixed script, no decision tree needed beyond how you allocate your points.

    a botter could do just as good a job leveling a toon as a player, because everything is pre-decided.

    Hence, helping the Turei, or the Kobali, accepting officer smarmy's "Prime Directive" defense on Kobali prime at face value, and jumping to do Daniels' bidding even if it's not in your interest to do so-because if you don't, you won't progress, or accepting Tovan "Indispensible" Khev and not being able to dismiss him.

    there is ONLY ONE POINT OF VIEW. Regardless of cosmetic differences, you are only allowed to have the point of view of an obedient servant of the Federation and Starfleet.

    I have to say I agree here. The way the game is, I don't even pay attention to the dialogue much. I tend to more, shoot that, click that, shoot that, click that, shoot that, "Oh, a jump." shoot that, click that, shoot that, click that, well you get the picture here. I mean, you can watch the cut scenes and piece together everything else..

    I know that I'm just a Red Shirt. I'm there to kill stuff or die. All I'm there for is to get NPC 1 from starting point a, to finishing point B. While also knowing that the story arc is going to end in some "happy, happy. joy, joy." way.

    As for the uber-alliance, I blame the Federation and time travel for that. Always jumping in and bumping the timeline to have the outcome they want. For that all one has to do is look at how things go. If the Federation wanted to use time travel to benefit all, instead of just themselves. They'd go back and prevent the Praxis explosion, or the Hobus Supernova. But, they won't, the two incidents weaken the Klingons and Romulans, which benefits the Federation. Preventing these from happening, doesn't benefit the Federation, as it strengthens the Klingons and Romulans. But let Earth come under threat of being destroyed and watch how fast the time travel begins to prevent it.

    That is why I play all my characters in different ways. My Fed chars, are either civilian or retired Starfleet, pursuing their own thing. Romulan, I play an alien, not attached to a faction, since it's my own creation and I just wanted to the outfits. My KDF characters vary, these are mercs, civilians, or my 1 klingon, a staunch imperialist that cares nothing for the Federation or the Alliance, or I'm using it like my Rom/Fed char for the outfits again. Dominion falling into resource mule only, since the Gamma expansion was disappointing in how it played out.
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  • somtaawkharsomtaawkhar Member Posts: 6,120 Arc User
    edited February 19
    patrickngo wrote: »
    but I was actually somewhat serious in my post-the underlying issue for the OP, looks to be a question of player agency. instead of having Moral Choice A vs. Moral Choice B, as a player character you have "Moral Choice Do-what-you're-told", and that's all you get.
    It's almost like STO is an MMORPG, a genre defined by little to no player choice beyond race, class, equipment, and things like perk/skill trees.
    patrickngo wrote: »
    Likewise, you don't get the option of refusing to continue helping the Kobali when you find out that not only is their war of their own doing,
    This ignores the fact that even if the Kobali weren't holding the Vaadwaur in stasis hostage, the Vaadwaur not in stasis would still be attacking and trying to kill them for the same reasons they attacked the Voth, Turei, B'omar, Krenim, and basically everyone else in the Delta Quadrant... they are waging a war of conquest for the Iconians. The Kobali's actions had literally zero impact on the situation beyond making the Vaadqwaur hate them a bit more then they hate everyone else.
    patrickngo wrote: »
    Or have a defined and obvious answer (Choose Federation for your romulan, because the other option has nothing going for it
    There is actually pretty good in-universe reasons for the Romulans to join both sides
    -The Federation has more raw resources, but their ability to defend themselves, let alone someone, else isn't the best.
    -The Klingon Empire, while not having the same resource base, is able to provide far better defense for their alliance then the Federation, due to the Klingon cultural predisposition toward war.
    patrickngo wrote: »
    See, he's mistaken a third-person-shooter-on-rails for a role playing game.
    Role playing games, at least CRPGs, are not defined by being able to make whatever choices you want in the narrative. They are defined by the ability to make your own character, and play through whatever scenario the DM, or in this case the developers, made for you. How many or few choices you get in that scenario is ultimately irrelevant to the definition of a CRPG.
    patrickngo wrote: »
    and jumping to do Daniels' bidding even if it's not in your interest to do so
    It's always in every faction's best itnrest to help Daniels. If the Sphere Builders win they will create and expand the Delphic expanse to cover the whole galaxy and kill pretty much all other life in the galaxy in the process.
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