We need an overall cost reduction to Z store Ships

24

Comments

  • jagdtier44
    jagdtier44 Member Posts: 361 Arc User
    So you want them to reduce the cost of items in the C-Store. I presume that you want a COST reduction so that the PRICE you pay can also be reduced. So, how would you propose that Cryptic cut costs? Should the developers all take a pay cut? Perhaps not invest in regular technology upgrades? Reduce or stop entirely all voice acting work? Maybe pack up the entire office and move somewhere with a lower rent? Where in their operating budget do you think they should cut COSTS just to save you a few bucks on PRICE?

    Relax man, he made a good point in that a lot of the mediocre ships might sell better at a lower price point as $30 is a lot to ask for a subpar ship to fly just for fun.

    You need to get a little less rabid when people make a criticism of Cryptic, especially when it either has a fair point or a constructive meaning behind it
  • echatty
    echatty Member Posts: 5,718 Arc User
    The lower tier ships don't cost $30, It's the T6 ships that cost 30. T1 shps only cost $5, T2 $10, etc.

    Where did you get the idea that the lower tier ships cost $30. I haven't found them to be sub par either, but everyone has their own opinion on that.
    Now a LTS and loving it.

    Just because you spend money on this game, it does not entitle you to be a jerk if things don't go your way.

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  • leemwatson
    leemwatson Member Posts: 4,620 Arc User
    jagdtier44 wrote: »
    So you want them to reduce the cost of items in the C-Store. I presume that you want a COST reduction so that the PRICE you pay can also be reduced. So, how would you propose that Cryptic cut costs? Should the developers all take a pay cut? Perhaps not invest in regular technology upgrades? Reduce or stop entirely all voice acting work? Maybe pack up the entire office and move somewhere with a lower rent? Where in their operating budget do you think they should cut COSTS just to save you a few bucks on PRICE?

    Relax man, he made a good point in that a lot of the mediocre ships might sell better at a lower price point as $30 is a lot to ask for a subpar ship to fly just for fun.

    You need to get a little less rabid when people make a criticism of Cryptic, especially when it either has a fair point or a constructive meaning behind it

    And BMR gave a pointed and valid argument about the costs to Cryptic. Nothing rabid about it at all. Cryptic makes it's money from C-Store and Lockbox sales. Pointing out the effects of how to achieve such a reduction is in the spirit of this post.
    "You don't want to patrol!? You don't want to escort!? You don't want to defend the Federation's Starbases!? Then why are you flying my Starships!? If you were a Klingon you'd be killed on the spot, but lucky for you.....you WERE in Starfleet. Let's see how New Zealand Penal Colony suits you." Adm A. Necheyev.
  • jagdtier44
    jagdtier44 Member Posts: 361 Arc User
    leemwatson wrote: »
    jagdtier44 wrote: »
    So you want them to reduce the cost of items in the C-Store. I presume that you want a COST reduction so that the PRICE you pay can also be reduced. So, how would you propose that Cryptic cut costs? Should the developers all take a pay cut? Perhaps not invest in regular technology upgrades? Reduce or stop entirely all voice acting work? Maybe pack up the entire office and move somewhere with a lower rent? Where in their operating budget do you think they should cut COSTS just to save you a few bucks on PRICE?

    Relax man, he made a good point in that a lot of the mediocre ships might sell better at a lower price point as $30 is a lot to ask for a subpar ship to fly just for fun.

    You need to get a little less rabid when people make a criticism of Cryptic, especially when it either has a fair point or a constructive meaning behind it

    And BMR gave a pointed and valid argument about the costs to Cryptic. Nothing rabid about it at all. Cryptic makes it's money from C-Store and Lockbox sales. Pointing out the effects of how to achieve such a reduction is in the spirit of this post.

    except its not.. because if they did sell better a lower price point.. they would make more money no? Are people still gobbling up the Guardian cruiser for $30 when there is the Arbiter for the same $30? How often do you see threads or posts of what ship should I buy with the same recommendations coming up over and over? perhaps if some of the less ideal ships cost less they could sell more of them as people might recommend them as they are cheaper alternatives.

    Also the production costs are already eaten, selling more of said product for a little less money when there literally is no longer a production cost would be a boost. would you rather sell 5 at $30 or or 7 at $25? It doesn't cost Cryptic anything when you buy one at this point, not like they have to manufacture and ship it or anything.. (maaaybe there's a license fee per ship sold? about all I can think of)
  • baddmoonrizin
    baddmoonrizin Member Posts: 7,382 Community Moderator
    No. If your justification for lowering the price of a ship is that it is mediocre (in someone's opinion I'll add), then a mediocre ship is still a mediocre ship no matter its price point and will not guarantee increased sales just because it is cheaper. The cost to produce said ship remains the same whether your opinion is that it is mediocre or someone else thinks it's great, and again I'll stress that those are just opinions. Production costs are eaten? Developers still have to be paid. Hardware still needs to be maintained, upgraded. Rent still needs to be paid. And new content is always being developed. Why do you think toll roads never stop charging tolls even after the initial cost is recouped? If you have a problem with the current price, then wait for a sale or a giveaway. They happen.

    Also, look at the OP's proposal again. He's calling for a price reduction that, if taken logically across the board, would effectively make T1 and T2 ships free. That's not gonna happen. I'll grant you that those ships probably aren't selling like they used to, except maybe for the consoles or Admiralty Cards for the occasional players who want those bad enough.

    To logically reduce the price of the ships, costs to produce them (and all other content, because ships sales help pay for all other content) would need to be reduced first. That's how industry works. So, again I'll ask, how would you have them reduce cost?
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  • jagdtier44
    jagdtier44 Member Posts: 361 Arc User
    edited February 2019
    Would like to leave some examples of the OPs premise.

    I have an Orion I made way way back, I bought the Dacoit because it as only $10, sure I knew I'd level thru it quickly but it was thematic, had neat fighters and wasn't to expensive. I really enjoyed it, next level bracket I went to buy the Corsair.. but at that point $15? For a ship I might fly for a few hours? I passed on it and kept flying my Dacoit sure that I would get the Marauder at Tier 5, than I got there.. $25??? Hangar pets wheren't all that good.. the Vo'quv was there and $25? I passed on that as well and guess what now the Marauder is free. So that character alone was a loss of say $30-$40 if they had been cheaper.

    Fed Sci captain was really enjoying the Voyager, liked the look of the Bellerophon but not for $15 so another loss.

    Garumba Siege Destroyer? thought it was really cool.. not $25 cool. Tulwar class scimitar dread? would love that skin on my T6 one but not for $25. Wanted an Armitage when it came out.. also not for $25. Wanted an Andromeda with the Venture skin.. again not for that money. Jhu'ael tac carrier? looks awesome wanted it for a while but can't justify the $30 price tag. The T6 Excelsior? same problem, Orion blackguard? same problem.

    So I just named 11 sales from just myself they didn't make because of price points, but somehow them cutting the prices to a point I probably would of gotten them would result in them having to accept lesser paychecks?

    I'd also like to add that not having discounted bundles when you buy part of it is a misstep in my eyes. I bought the Kor without realizing it was the bundle part to the Malem which I had wanted. Now I won't buy the Malem since I'll just lose out on the Fed version while paying the same $60. I also want the Tac Miracle Worker warbird, I don't think I'd want to fly the other 2, but I thought the same with the T6 scimitar and glad i bought the full pack as I use the Tac n Sci versions. But since I can't get the Tac MW Bird than go yeah that was cool and get the other 2 for the bundle price I simply haven't purchased them at all. Dunno maybe they make more money on ppl being afraid of losing the discount so they buy the full pack but after I bought the full pack of Rom pilot ships and only ever took out the sci version.. I'm very leery of dropping that much

    edit: also forgot I ended up buying all the Temporal ships over time except the science ones and the future ones (just the Perseus, gemini and ranger and their t6s) and I would of jumped at the mega bundle at the time I was buying the t6 ranger to get the sci versions and the cross faction ships if it was discounted. but instead I cut my losses and just got the t6 ranger

  • leemwatson
    leemwatson Member Posts: 4,620 Arc User
    jagdtier44 wrote: »
    leemwatson wrote: »
    jagdtier44 wrote: »
    So you want them to reduce the cost of items in the C-Store. I presume that you want a COST reduction so that the PRICE you pay can also be reduced. So, how would you propose that Cryptic cut costs? Should the developers all take a pay cut? Perhaps not invest in regular technology upgrades? Reduce or stop entirely all voice acting work? Maybe pack up the entire office and move somewhere with a lower rent? Where in their operating budget do you think they should cut COSTS just to save you a few bucks on PRICE?

    Relax man, he made a good point in that a lot of the mediocre ships might sell better at a lower price point as $30 is a lot to ask for a subpar ship to fly just for fun.

    You need to get a little less rabid when people make a criticism of Cryptic, especially when it either has a fair point or a constructive meaning behind it

    And BMR gave a pointed and valid argument about the costs to Cryptic. Nothing rabid about it at all. Cryptic makes it's money from C-Store and Lockbox sales. Pointing out the effects of how to achieve such a reduction is in the spirit of this post.

    except its not.. because if they did sell better a lower price point.. they would make more money no? Are people still gobbling up the Guardian cruiser for $30 when there is the Arbiter for the same $30? How often do you see threads or posts of what ship should I buy with the same recommendations coming up over and over? perhaps if some of the less ideal ships cost less they could sell more of them as people might recommend them as they are cheaper alternatives.

    Also the production costs are already eaten, selling more of said product for a little less money when there literally is no longer a production cost would be a boost. would you rather sell 5 at $30 or or 7 at $25? It doesn't cost Cryptic anything when you buy one at this point, not like they have to manufacture and ship it or anything.. (maaaybe there's a license fee per ship sold? about all I can think of)

    I'm sorry, but your analysis is wrong. Wages (which ARE a big part of the the production costs) do not decrease just because a person has been at the company for a long time. The costs of running the business are factored into the prices of goods that people sell. Digital Goods do not have a 'sell-by' date, and the T6 ships, including the venerable Guardian, have not out-lived their usefulness nor become irrelevant. I give props to the folk who do not follow the mantra of 'you must have this to be good at the game' and buy the obscure ships (and yes I'm one of them). Someone may buy only one ship in the game, so that $30 is supporting the longevity of this game, which is still cheaper that buying an $80 AAA game that will be no longer supported in 2 years time. Saying things should be cheaper just because you may be able to afford to spends hundreds of $'s on this game is just plain wrong.

    You're also forgetting that Cryptic consistently holds sales, which fulfills the OP's request. Educating the new players on this will promote better sales, because if you reduce ships permanently by say, 20%, then in a few months time people will be asking for yet further decreases.

    The ONLY thing I can see happening is a reduction in price of T1-T4 ships in the future, but T6's will not be touched as they will still remain relevant, even with the new scaling ships. As for T5's, there may be a reduction, but you still have to acquire a Ship Upgrade, but they are still competitive.
    "You don't want to patrol!? You don't want to escort!? You don't want to defend the Federation's Starbases!? Then why are you flying my Starships!? If you were a Klingon you'd be killed on the spot, but lucky for you.....you WERE in Starfleet. Let's see how New Zealand Penal Colony suits you." Adm A. Necheyev.
  • darkbladejk
    darkbladejk Member Posts: 3,300 Community Moderator
    jagdtier44 wrote: »
    Relax man, he made a good point in that a lot of the mediocre ships might sell better at a lower price point as $30 is a lot to ask for a subpar ship to fly just for fun.

    You need to get a little less rabid when people make a criticism of Cryptic, especially when it either has a fair point or a constructive meaning behind it

    Who gets to decide what is a subpar or mediocre ship and what isn't? An argument made from a stance like that is based in 100% subjectivity and is not based in objective fact. Simply because you don't like the ship or it's not the 3rd coming of the scimitars does NOT make it a subpar ship. Contrary to popular belief there is no such thing in this game as a winner take all "best" ship. What is best for me as a tank may not be what is best for the guy with the drain build over there, or best for the guy wanting to go pure damage. There are ships that lend more support and tools to certain builds than others, but that's where what is "best" ends.

    As far as being "rabid" I see nothing of the such, but him asking legitimate questions as to how to cryptic lower their cost.
    jagdtier44 wrote: »
    except its not.. because if they did sell better a lower price point.. they would make more money no? Are people still gobbling up the Guardian cruiser for $30 when there is the Arbiter for the same $30? How often do you see threads or posts of what ship should I buy with the same recommendations coming up over and over? perhaps if some of the less ideal ships cost less they could sell more of them as people might recommend them as they are cheaper alternatives.

    Also the production costs are already eaten, selling more of said product for a little less money when there literally is no longer a production cost would be a boost. would you rather sell 5 at $30 or or 7 at $25? It doesn't cost Cryptic anything when you buy one at this point, not like they have to manufacture and ship it or anything.. (maaaybe there's a license fee per ship sold? about all I can think of)

    As I started to get into above, he asked the legitimate question of how you propose cryptic lower their costs. Every business would love to lower their costs as much as they possibly can and simply saying they should lower them is not an argument. HOW do you propose they lower them? Every single dollar in a business will add up quickly and must be accounted for. Neither of us have access to the backend financials to know how much each individual items makes, or doesn't make for Cryptic, so without that, it's pure speculation at the end of the day as to what does or does not sell that well. Something I might think sells very well may end up being one of their lowest sellers or vice versa.

    As to your analogy of the Guardian and Arbiter, each ship has their pros and cons to them. Neither one of those 2 ships is better than the other. In this game it's 20% gear, setup, skills, ship etc, and the other 80% is how you pilot the ship. Having all the gear in the world means nothing if you don't know how to use it. Any ship in game can be made to deal good damage, or be made into some sort of tank given the proper build and piloting. In fact as proof of that point, there are several videos out there of me tanking using the old fleet T5u Aquarius.

    In regards to ship building, there is no winner take all approach to building ships. Let's suppose you take myself and another poster and give one of us the Guardian and the other the Arbiter. If I'm the one with the Arbiter I may kit it out to be a tank where as they might make the Guardian into a pure damage dealer. On the opposite end of that coin if I have the Guardian I may make it into a tank where as they might make their Arbiter into a damage dealer. The value of ships in this game in terms of what is "mediocre" and what isn't is 100% subjective. Not every ship is going to appeal to every person or every style of building as not every ship is meant to attract all players.

    While there may not be a production cost of sorts beyond the initial phase to get the ship into the game, there are still bits of upkeep and so on. The Cryptic Employees must still be paid, potential rent on the building paid, maintenance done to keep the servers up, upgrades to the servers from time to time, and on down the line. Just because the production costs for a ship like the Guardian or the Arbiter may have already been paid out and no longer relevant, the other bills are still there.

    At the end of the day if you think it's too expensive, then you are entitled to that opinion, however you are not as optionless as you may believe. If you think $30 for a ship is too high then you have options to grind out the appropriate amount of zen by flipping dilithium to zen, and covering the entire cost for free, or by supplementing a cash amount such as $20 in cash and 1000 zen ground out for free. So far i've yet to see an argument for why they should be lowered save for those based purely in subjectivity.
    "Someone once told me that time was a predator that stalked us all our lives. I rather believe that time is a companion who goes with us on the journey and reminds us to cherish every moment, because it will never come again." - Jean Luc Picard in Star Trek Generations

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  • majorprankster
    majorprankster Member Posts: 25 Arc User
    Entertainment costs money.
    The value of that entertainment is in the eye of the customer.

    IMO, this is simply no different than going into a Lamborgini dealship and asking them to sell you last years model dirt cheap simply because you don't feel like paying the typical last-years-sale price.

    IME with MMOs since AC1, there are always player groups that think so much of themselves that they decide they will tell the rest of us 'how it should be' and IMO this is just another example of that level of player entitlement. While this is typically cast as some great gift of an idea to the company and the players.

    So one small gaming group thinks they know how to turn Cryptics pricing around fro bigger profits...

    Why not, instead of a forum-post that will do nothing but evoke more TRIBBLE, if serious, send a proper bussiness plan to Cryptic around the idea, with actual sales numbers, a real plan, and real data.

    How about that?

    The endless armchair-game-company-company-executives MMOs produce is massive.
  • jagdtier44
    jagdtier44 Member Posts: 361 Arc User
    leemwatson wrote: »
    jagdtier44 wrote: »
    leemwatson wrote: »
    jagdtier44 wrote: »
    So you want them to reduce the cost of items in the C-Store. I presume that you want a COST reduction so that the PRICE you pay can also be reduced. So, how would you propose that Cryptic cut costs? Should the developers all take a pay cut? Perhaps not invest in regular technology upgrades? Reduce or stop entirely all voice acting work? Maybe pack up the entire office and move somewhere with a lower rent? Where in their operating budget do you think they should cut COSTS just to save you a few bucks on PRICE?

    Relax man, he made a good point in that a lot of the mediocre ships might sell better at a lower price point as $30 is a lot to ask for a subpar ship to fly just for fun.

    You need to get a little less rabid when people make a criticism of Cryptic, especially when it either has a fair point or a constructive meaning behind it

    And BMR gave a pointed and valid argument about the costs to Cryptic. Nothing rabid about it at all. Cryptic makes it's money from C-Store and Lockbox sales. Pointing out the effects of how to achieve such a reduction is in the spirit of this post.

    except its not.. because if they did sell better a lower price point.. they would make more money no? Are people still gobbling up the Guardian cruiser for $30 when there is the Arbiter for the same $30? How often do you see threads or posts of what ship should I buy with the same recommendations coming up over and over? perhaps if some of the less ideal ships cost less they could sell more of them as people might recommend them as they are cheaper alternatives.

    Also the production costs are already eaten, selling more of said product for a little less money when there literally is no longer a production cost would be a boost. would you rather sell 5 at $30 or or 7 at $25? It doesn't cost Cryptic anything when you buy one at this point, not like they have to manufacture and ship it or anything.. (maaaybe there's a license fee per ship sold? about all I can think of)

    I'm sorry, but your analysis is wrong. Wages (which ARE a big part of the the production costs) do not decrease just because a person has been at the company for a long time. The costs of running the business are factored into the prices of goods that people sell. Digital Goods do not have a 'sell-by' date, and the T6 ships, including the venerable Guardian, have not out-lived their usefulness nor become irrelevant. I give props to the folk who do not follow the mantra of 'you must have this to be good at the game' and buy the obscure ships (and yes I'm one of them). Someone may buy only one ship in the game, so that $30 is supporting the longevity of this game, which is still cheaper that buying an $80 AAA game that will be no longer supported in 2 years time. Saying things should be cheaper just because you may be able to afford to spends hundreds of $'s on this game is just plain wrong.

    You're also forgetting that Cryptic consistently holds sales, which fulfills the OP's request. Educating the new players on this will promote better sales, because if you reduce ships permanently by say, 20%, then in a few months time people will be asking for yet further decreases.

    The ONLY thing I can see happening is a reduction in price of T1-T4 ships in the future, but T6's will not be touched as they will still remain relevant, even with the new scaling ships. As for T5's, there may be a reduction, but you still have to acquire a Ship Upgrade, but they are still competitive.


    You working under the premise that a ship in this game has a continuing cost, as if everytime someone buys Ship B it costs Cryptic X number of $$s. Once the ship has been implemented in the game it's costs are paid for already. Recouping investment is what is left. If after X number of months or years said ship is selling poorly should you not try to boost it's sales? You've already paid for the production of it, it doesn't cost you anything at this point when you sell it as its not something that requires manufacturing, packing or shipping it's a digital good.

    to keep from the quoting getting to long by quoting baddmoonrizin and Darkblade on who gets to determine what is subpar, that's simple and it's not subjective, Cryptic does.. they see what's selling and whats not selling. What ships are performing and which are underperforming.
  • xyquarze
    xyquarze Member Posts: 2,091 Arc User
    edited February 2019
    jagdtier44 wrote: »
    except its not.. because if they did sell better a lower price point.. they would make more money no?

    No. Or yes. Finding the sweet spot of a price where you get the optimal combination of volume sold times money earned is not simple at all and treatises on how to do it properly written by learned people fill libraries. Yes, you can overprice so that selling for less would be beneficial for you in the end, but you can also underprice so you don't make as much money as you can. For your examples of ships being bought if cheaper there are certainly counter examples of ships which may have sold for 35$, 40$, maybe even 50$. Judging the correct price is, as I said, difficult at best if you know all the relevant available data. You don't, neither do I, so our chances of correctly guessing it from Cryptic's perspective are shaky at best.

    Yes, I do agree, 30$ for a ship is a hefty price tag - but 25$ is as well, so would really many people buy it then? We're still in the ballpark of "full price AAA game at a sale". Maybe - maybe not. I am not sure whether Cryptic really knows it, but they have data and they have people thinking about it a lot. The idea that we, spending 10 minutes on a forum post based on anecdotal evidence from ourselves and two friends in the fleet, will know better is simply quite off.

    On a personal note: I very much prefer flying the Fleet Guardian to the Arbiter (not counting trait and console). But comparing ships too much will also not work as a basis for pricing. Nobody would understand why one ship is 29$ and another of the same level 31$.
    My mother was an epohh and my father smelled of tulaberries
  • echatty
    echatty Member Posts: 5,718 Arc User
    IMO, what is sub-par to one person might be someone else's dream ship.
    Now a LTS and loving it.

    Just because you spend money on this game, it does not entitle you to be a jerk if things don't go your way.

    xp8s7wd.jpg
  • davefenestrator
    davefenestrator Member Posts: 9,788 Arc User
    echatty wrote: »
    IMO, what is sub-par to one person might be someone else's dream ship.

    Yep, my captains fly ships that fit their theme and back story, not ships that will maximize their DPS.

    Space Barbie is the true end game :)

  • echatty
    echatty Member Posts: 5,718 Arc User
    echatty wrote: »
    IMO, what is sub-par to one person might be someone else's dream ship.

    Yep, my captains fly ships that fit their theme and back story, not ships that will maximize their DPS.

    Space Barbie is the true end game :)

    I agree there. I pick ships I can afford (which is usually the 'free' ones). I fly all the Event Ships and go for them every time. Because they only cost me a little time and I can dismiss them to make room and know I won't lose them if I want to fly them again.

    I'm even enjoying that odd 3/5 layout ship. The one others were ragging on big time back when it was first announced.
    Now a LTS and loving it.

    Just because you spend money on this game, it does not entitle you to be a jerk if things don't go your way.

    xp8s7wd.jpg
  • jagdtier44
    jagdtier44 Member Posts: 361 Arc User
    xyquarze wrote: »
    jagdtier44 wrote: »
    except its not.. because if they did sell better a lower price point.. they would make more money no?

    No. Or yes. Finding the sweet spot of a price where you get the optimal combination of volume sold times money earned is not simple at all and treatises on how to do it properly written by learned people fill libraries. Yes, you can overprice so that selling for less would be beneficial for you in the end, but you can also underprice so you don't make as much money as you can. For your examples of ships being bought if cheaper there are certainly counter examples of ships which may have sold for 35$, 40$, maybe even 50$. Judging the correct price is, as I said, difficult at best if you know all the relevant available data. You don't, neither do I, so our chances of correctly guessing it from Cryptic's perspective are shaky at best.

    Yes, I do agree, 30$ for a ship is a hefty price tag - but 25$ is as well, so would really many people buy it then? We're still in the ballpark of "full price AAA game at a sale". Maybe - maybe not. I am not sure whether Cryptic really knows it, but they have data and they have people thinking about it a lot. The idea that we, spending 10 minutes on a forum post based on anecdotal evidence from ourselves and two friends in the fleet, will know better is simply quite off.

    On a personal note: I very much prefer flying the Fleet Guardian to the Arbiter (not counting trait and console). But comparing ships too much will also not work as a basis for pricing. Nobody would understand why one ship is 29$ and another of the same level 31$.

    This is about the only arguement I could take seriously, in that yes it would be difficult for them to judge a sweet spot, and yes I'm sure Cryptic has all the relevant data on ship sales over 9 years of doing this and they have ballpark expectations of what they should see in sales of said ships. (every company does when they sell a product)

    As for nobody would understand, I don't necessarily agree.. we see what ships are popular and what ships get constant recommendations. You also can easily notice what ships you hardly ever see in flight or TFOs.

    These ships have a fixed cost depending on licensing and what not, there is no cost per unit or manufacturing and production / wage per unit costs. If cryptic sinks $250,000 into producing again say the Guardian and sells 10,000 units thats not gonna be to good, but again to use my Arbiter (which we saw everywhere) it still cost them 250k but might of sold 10x that. I don't see why Cryptic wouldn't seek to increase their ROI by dropping the price of Guardians after all this time to try and boost the sales #s. Or dropping the prices on the entire T5 run of ships that haven't been costing Cryptic a dime for a number of years now but COULD (not saying WOULD) see sales at a lower price point

    But yes it isn't a simple task, and no ship sales aren't a great metric for measuring the sales of lower end boats because everything goes on sale.. your still going to push more units of the more desirable ships.
  • themadprofessor#9835
    themadprofessor#9835 Member Posts: 1,203 Arc User
    I think we all know where ships like the D'kora stand with the general populace. Not very high.

    That said, I absolutely ADORE the D'kora and ensure that every toon I play has one, even if it doesn't fit the theme of the toon.

    Why?

    Because I find the ship to be quite versatile, extremely well balanced, and, frankly, a HELL of a lot of fun to fly. It can be surprisingly tanky, a good gut puncher, or even a decent science ship, depending on how you lay it out.

    Now, some people don't like it because there's not one thing it is exceedingly good at, but there's also nothing that is sucks at either.

    Plus, I love the aesthetics.
    Space Barbie Extraordinaire. Got a question about Space Barbie? Just ask.

    Things I want in STO:

    1) More character customization options such as more clothing options, letting the toon complexion affect the entire body, not just the head. Also a true RGB color picker applied to all costume and appearance options, which would allow for true appearance customization and homogenous colors instead of "this same exact color looks vastly different on two different pieces."
    2) Bridge customization, not bridge packs. Let us pick a general layout and adjust the color palette, console appearance, and chair types, as well as more ready room layout options.
    3) Customizable ground weapons, i.e. The aesthetic look of phaser dual pistols but they shoot antiproton bolts. For obvious reasons this would only apply to standard ground weapons.
    4) For the love of Q please revamp Plasma Ground Weapons. They look like demented Supersoakers right now.
    5) True Vanity Impulse and Deflector effects similar to Vanity Shields.
    6) A greater payout for hitting T6 Reputations. Currently it takes more time and resources to get from T5 to T6 than it does to get from nothing to T5. Make that grind really pay out at the end.
    7) Mirrorverse Refugee event similar to AoY/Delta/Gamma, complete with new Mirrorverse recruits for all factions.
    8) Independent Faction, because yo ho yo ho a pirate's life for me!
  • jagdtier44
    jagdtier44 Member Posts: 361 Arc User
    Entertainment costs money.
    The value of that entertainment is in the eye of the customer.

    IMO, this is simply no different than going into a Lamborgini dealship and asking them to sell you last years model dirt cheap simply because you don't feel like paying the typical last-years-sale price.

    IME with MMOs since AC1, there are always player groups that think so much of themselves that they decide they will tell the rest of us 'how it should be' and IMO this is just another example of that level of player entitlement. While this is typically cast as some great gift of an idea to the company and the players.

    So one small gaming group thinks they know how to turn Cryptics pricing around fro bigger profits...

    Why not, instead of a forum-post that will do nothing but evoke more TRIBBLE, if serious, send a proper bussiness plan to Cryptic around the idea, with actual sales numbers, a real plan, and real data.

    How about that?

    The endless armchair-game-company-company-executives MMOs produce is massive.

    I think you brought up a really poor time to go on a player entitlement rant.. what the OP has suggested is how the business world operates at large.

    Cars have end of year sales.. no dealer is gonna sell you a vehicle even un-driven 3 years down the line for the sticker price of the car 3 years ago..

    No company takes an under performing game and keeps it at it's full sticker price (hello fallout 76)

    No gaming company charges full price for it's titles down the line..

    Whens the last time you bought a computer that was baller 3 years ago for the price it was 3 years ago?

    The idea that Cryptic can't look at what ships they sell and go "wow these ships really don't move well.. what if we drop the price some?" to me is a little.. dunno absurd.

    But who knows maybe Cryptic is fully satisfied with their sales figures, or perhaps they just don't want to enter a slippery slope of dropping ship costs and continual expectation that it'll keep happening (I think thats more likely)
  • baddmoonrizin
    baddmoonrizin Member Posts: 7,382 Community Moderator
    No, it would not be difficult for them to judge a "sweet spot," as they already have. The fact that the game is still running, and expanding, and continuously adding Star Trek alum voice acting, speaks to the fact that their sales and marketing model is working for them. Their sales data tells them whether they're on the right track, which it obviously does, not the anecdotal evidence of forum naysayers.
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  • vincetzuwu#5400
    vincetzuwu#5400 Member Posts: 7 Arc User
    They clearly sell well enough at the current prices to keep making new ships.

    I do agree that T5 ships should see a significant permanent cost reduction as they are overpriced compared to the T6 ships. But Cryptic doesn't see the need so I assume they are selling well enough too.

    for myself, I'm no longer a potential market for there ships. I'll reconsider once they get pass making Discovery based stuff. Hoping it's cancelled after this season.


    So you don't like the fact that they are putting content into the game from a show that is currently airing? That's too bad and the show is doing well. It saddens me that people want Trek to fail because it doesn't live up to their nostalgia standards. Another failed, short series and CBS may just shelve the IP altogether.
  • westx211
    westx211 Member Posts: 41,699 Arc User
    No, it would not be difficult for them to judge a "sweet spot," as they already have. The fact that the game is still running, and expanding, and continuously adding Star Trek alum voice acting, speaks to the fact that their sales and marketing model is working for them. Their sales data tells them whether they're on the right track, which it obviously does, not the anecdotal evidence of forum naysayers.

    I don't think they've judged a sweetspot. And you have to remember its not just ships that keep the game running there's a significant amount of money moving the lootboxes. In other games with similar models lootboxes account for exhorbitant amounts of revenue. And neither of us has access to their sales data to know for sure. But assumptions can be made that most T5 ships don't sell anymore due to being outdated and requiring an upgrade token to be brought up to par with newer ships making the value of purchasing one less. and yes some people do buy every ship in the game but the vast majority don't. And from a business stand point its not always easy to find the perfect price and often times older products depreciate in value (power creep) I'm sure their sales data tells them plenty of ships aren't being purchased now due to being so old.
    Men are not punished for their sins, but by them.
  • themadprofessor#9835
    themadprofessor#9835 Member Posts: 1,203 Arc User
    They clearly sell well enough at the current prices to keep making new ships.

    I do agree that T5 ships should see a significant permanent cost reduction as they are overpriced compared to the T6 ships. But Cryptic doesn't see the need so I assume they are selling well enough too.

    for myself, I'm no longer a potential market for there ships. I'll reconsider once they get pass making Discovery based stuff. Hoping it's cancelled after this season.


    So you don't like the fact that they are putting content into the game from a show that is currently airing? That's too bad and the show is doing well. It saddens me that people want Trek to fail because it doesn't live up to their nostalgia standards. Another failed, short series and CBS may just shelve the IP altogether.

    Eh, I wouldn't say that it's doing well, nor would I say it's doing poorly. I seem to recall that CBS All Access was calling Star Trek Discovery a hit because of a record number of new subscriptions for rhe Season 2 Premiere. Thing is, that same subscription covered the AFC Championship game, and no matter how good a Trek show is, it ain't gonna get the kind of fandom that football has. The most likely scenario for this is that the vast number of new subscriptions were for football, and the showrunners just got lucky.
    Space Barbie Extraordinaire. Got a question about Space Barbie? Just ask.

    Things I want in STO:

    1) More character customization options such as more clothing options, letting the toon complexion affect the entire body, not just the head. Also a true RGB color picker applied to all costume and appearance options, which would allow for true appearance customization and homogenous colors instead of "this same exact color looks vastly different on two different pieces."
    2) Bridge customization, not bridge packs. Let us pick a general layout and adjust the color palette, console appearance, and chair types, as well as more ready room layout options.
    3) Customizable ground weapons, i.e. The aesthetic look of phaser dual pistols but they shoot antiproton bolts. For obvious reasons this would only apply to standard ground weapons.
    4) For the love of Q please revamp Plasma Ground Weapons. They look like demented Supersoakers right now.
    5) True Vanity Impulse and Deflector effects similar to Vanity Shields.
    6) A greater payout for hitting T6 Reputations. Currently it takes more time and resources to get from T5 to T6 than it does to get from nothing to T5. Make that grind really pay out at the end.
    7) Mirrorverse Refugee event similar to AoY/Delta/Gamma, complete with new Mirrorverse recruits for all factions.
    8) Independent Faction, because yo ho yo ho a pirate's life for me!
  • westx211
    westx211 Member Posts: 41,699 Arc User
    azrael605 wrote: »
    > @westx211 said:
    > baddmoonrizin wrote: »
    >
    > No, it would not be difficult for them to judge a "sweet spot," as they already have. The fact that the game is still running, and expanding, and continuously adding Star Trek alum voice acting, speaks to the fact that their sales and marketing model is working for them. Their sales data tells them whether they're on the right track, which it obviously does, not the anecdotal evidence of forum naysayers.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > I don't think they've judged a sweetspot. And you have to remember its not just ships that keep the game running there's a significant amount of money moving the lootboxes. In other games with similar models lootboxes account for exhorbitant amounts of revenue. And neither of us has access to their sales data to know for sure. But assumptions can be made that most T5 ships don't sell anymore due to being outdated and requiring an upgrade token to be brought up to par with newer ships making the value of purchasing one less. and yes some people do buy every ship in the game but the vast majority don't. And from a business stand point its not always easy to find the perfect price and often times older products depreciate in value (power creep) I'm sure their sales data tells them plenty of ships aren't being purchased now due to being so old.

    The very facts of unchanged prices and the game not shutting down says you are wrong. Maybe try using actual facts like publicly available corporate profit statements and not your feelimgs which are based on nothing.

    I don't see how either of those says I am wrong? I just pointed out lockbox sales account for a significant portion of revenue for the game that doesn't mean my point about ship prices is invalid. And the unchanged prices also doesn't prove I am wrong as people will buy the ships almost regardless of price but my point is more people would likely buy them if they were a lower price.
    Men are not punished for their sins, but by them.
  • xyquarze
    xyquarze Member Posts: 2,091 Arc User
    azrael605 wrote: »
    The very facts of unchanged prices and the game not shutting down says you are wrong. Maybe try using actual facts like publicly available corporate profit statements and not your feelimgs which are based on nothing.

    Just using the "sweet spot" approach here: the facts you mention (and a similar statement from BMR a couple of posts above) shows that STO is doing well and the prices are not out of the ballpark of "reasonable" from an economic POV. However, the OP's (and some other's) suggestion that lower pirces could increase revenue is not disproven by that. Since a certain risk-aversity is useful, I wouldn't change anything either if I were in Cryptic's shoes (at least with the data available to me which is "game is still running and they can afford to upgrade older content", so they can't be doing too badly), as this would run the risk of just cutting your lifeline. However, unless tested we don't know what would happen if prices were to drop. (Granted, Cryptic has a better idea, being able to compare normale sales with sale sales, but since sales are bound to happen, many people will wait for them even if they would buy the same stuff at face value).
    My mother was an epohh and my father smelled of tulaberries
  • majorprankster
    majorprankster Member Posts: 25 Arc User
    jagdtier44 wrote: »
    I think you brought up a really poor time to go on a player entitlement rant.. what the OP has suggested is how the business world operates at large.

    Cars have end of year sales.. no dealer is gonna sell you a vehicle even un-driven 3 years down the line for the sticker price of the car 3 years ago..

    No company takes an under performing game and keeps it at it's full sticker price (hello fallout 76)

    No gaming company charges full price for it's titles down the line..

    Whens the last time you bought a computer that was baller 3 years ago for the price it was 3 years ago?

    The idea that Cryptic can't look at what ships they sell and go "wow these ships really don't move well.. what if we drop the price some?" to me is a little.. dunno absurd.

    But who knows maybe Cryptic is fully satisfied with their sales figures, or perhaps they just don't want to enter a slippery slope of dropping ship costs and continual expectation that it'll keep happening (I think thats more likely)

    I am not saying that Cryptic is incapable or has not looked at these things.
    As others have pointed out they seem to be doing fine in the fiscal sense at this time.

    What I am saying is that this the endless parade of armchair CEOs for MMOs is as constant as the sun rising.

    If, in fact, the wanna-be CEOs were serious, they would create real business plans and take real action.

    The reality is that, from my PoV, forum posters with ideas about lowering entertinament prices just don't like the current prices because of thier own fiscal reality and want the 'big mean/greedy/rich companies' to charge less for the entertainment they desire.

    If these forum posters wanted to make real change, they would take real action, not just post TRIBBLE on the forums.

    We can talk in circles forever speculating.

    Real data, real action is all that matters, not the TRIBBLE that occurs in the forum rants of board gamers. :)
  • forcemajeure
    forcemajeure Member Posts: 208 Arc User
    Player opinions are only that, opinions not overly based on actual corporate business numbers.

    That said, many businesses set their own numbers, sales figures and price points based on their own, subjective standards.

    The only way to actually determine efficient price points is to experiment. Produce product A, sell it at one price, produce (roughly comparable) product B, sell it at a different price, see which one makes you more money. Cryptic tried engineering a 'fan favorite' request for the Galaxy interior (and for an episode setting), then ran into a price wall when players balked at paying 2000 Zen for a ship interior. That's a data point.

    Cryptic sold (in my experience) tons of the original Elite Starter Services pack, and the Gamma Vanguard pack. That's another data point.

    Companies don't automatically know their most effective price points unless they experiment and gather data. Apparently the current Discovery Operations pack is an experiment on varying the price/content included on a season pack, and seeing if people will still pay for it.
  • ltminns
    ltminns Member Posts: 12,481 Arc User
    The one thing I've noticed on Steam over the last few years, some of these $59.99, etc. games have not come down in list price even after two or three years. Granted, you can get them at 50% sales, but 50% of $59.99 is still $30.

    In the past these $60 games dropped in list price to $30 or even less. Then a 50% or more sale brings the price down below, for me at least, a price point threshold, where I would make an Impulse buy.
    'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
    Judge Dan Haywood
    'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
    l don't know.
    l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
    That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
    Lt. Philip J. Minns
  • valoreah
    valoreah Member Posts: 11,007 Arc User
    jagdtier44 wrote: »
    Relax man, he made a good point in that a lot of the mediocre ships might sell better at a lower price point as $30 is a lot to ask for a subpar ship to fly just for fun.

    "subpar" according to what measure? DPS? Not everyone is a DPS chaser.



    Dear Devs: I enjoyed the Legacy of Romulus expansion much more than the Delta Rising expansion. .
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    Anyone calling Valoreah a "Cryptic fanboy" must be new to the forum.

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