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Has the foundry community become toxic?

I'm thinking we have, myself included. Perhaps I need a break from this game.
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  • spiritbornspiritborn Member Posts: 3,650 Arc User
    I'm thinking we have, myself included. Perhaps I need a break from this game.

    To various degrees yes, I'm sure we're all frustrated at the current state of the editor, however some seem to be more accusative and toxic about then others which obviously frustrates the more patient members even more causing more toxicity and you get the picture.

    I think we all as a collective need to take deep breath and possibly a break and then look at things with a fresh perspective.
  • thay8472thay8472 Member Posts: 5,968 Arc User
    I'm thinking we have, myself included. Perhaps I need a break from this game.

    What do you mean?

  • starfarerthetastarfarertheta Member Posts: 738 Arc User
    thay8472 wrote: »

    What do you mean?

    I'm talking about the frustrations being exhibited by active authors on the arc forums concerning editor issues, frustrations I echoed in the "Does the Foundry Matter to You?" thread. I wondered if anyone else notices the growing air of negativity.
  • spiritbornspiritborn Member Posts: 3,650 Arc User
    thay8472 wrote: »

    What do you mean?

    I'm talking about the frustrations being exhibited by active authors on the arc forums concerning editor issues, frustrations I echoed in the "Does the Foundry Matter to You?" thread. I wondered if anyone else notices the growing air of negativity.

    Yeah it's been going on for quite a while now, people are getting frustrated and as I said before we who ask for patience and civility are getting frustrated at either being ignored or accused of not really caring about this as if Cryptic would respond to toxicity in any positive way and only to toxicity.
  • cerritourugcerritourug Member Posts: 1,376 Arc User
    What foundry community? Foundry has been broken for half a year now.. with out any sing of been worked on. Is there still a foundry community? And how much time the current foundry community should wait until they lose their patient? 3 more months? Another half a year? a year? How much time is correct?
    __________________________________________________

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  • starfarerthetastarfarertheta Member Posts: 738 Arc User
    edited February 2019
    spiritborn wrote: »

    Yeah it's been going on for quite a while now, people are getting frustrated and as I said before we who ask for patience and civility are getting frustrated at either being ignored or accused of not really caring about this as if Cryptic would respond to toxicity in any positive way and only to toxicity.

    I think you're able to describe the situation better than I can.
    What foundry community? Foundry has been broken for half a year now.. with out any sing of been worked on. Is there still a foundry community? And how much time the current foundry community should wait until they lose their patient? 3 more months? Another half a year? a year? How much time is correct?


    It's really about how that dissatisfaction is displayed. Get too toxic, and the foundry could get removed that much sooner (developers are only human, not tireless machines). Though I'll admit that exercising restraint is difficult when your favorite feature in the game continues to rot.
  • hippiejonhippiejon Member Posts: 1,581 Arc User
    I've made a couple of snarky twitter posts about it, but for the most part, I don't think the community has become exactly "toxic". Mostly what I have seen from social media and the Starbase UGC Chatrooms is more of a sad acceptance.

    Personally, I've reached the point of not caring anymore.

    Foundry will never be any kind of priority to them. That's just a fact. If they stopped being short sighted about it, they could figure out how to monetize it (not that difficult). If it made them any cash flow, they'd care (at least a little).

    So, while I don't find it Toxic, I do feel a great sense of sadness from many long time authors. For many of us, Foundry is what kept us coming back. These days after almost a half a year of it being down, and then broken for authors, I rarely log in to do more than the daily to get the current event shiny.

    I've given up even hoping that the powers that be will ever find the time to fix it. I mean, I understand, development priorities and bug fixes toward the Foundry will always be at the bottom of their list.

    It's just truly sad that they are content to leave a part of the game many customers love in such a state.
  • benalexanderbenalexander Member Posts: 40 Arc User
    I can only speak from the perspective of a German foundry author, but we have a very similar problem. A once rather active Foundry community has shrunken more and more over the years. However, like hippiejon, I don't see much toxicity, but rather disappointment.

    For example: “Browse all”-Tab is cluttered with all previous spotlight missions. In the English version that's 13. In the German Foundry it's 26. More than half out of the 50 spots - unmovable and unchanged, making the list pretty much unusable. We asked to get this changed for years, honestly tried to bribe our CM with homemade cookies to find someone to fix the issue. That happened September 2016. This specific bug isn't the real problem. But getting “It was passed on but can't be fixed” as a response is demotivating and saddening. Seeing your own expectations be lowered every year is disheartening. First, you stop hoping for new features, than you just want back, was once was (like the freecam). And in the end (well, hopefully not the end) you loose faith every season and update breaks the editor and it takes months to get things fixed.

    I realize, the foundry is not and never will be on top of the priority list. The editor itself even less so. But feeling ignored hurts. I still try to help those who encounter bugs or problems in the editor, I so still care, I still have hope left. But it gets increasingly more difficult to keep negativity at bay.

    Gunnar Ardelius wrote: “How do you know when it's over? - Maybe when you feel more in love with your memories than with the person standing in front of you.” Not be be all doom and gloom, but sometimes I feel quite similar when it comes to the foundry. That's no excuse for being toxic, of course. A snappy comment, humor and irony do deal with frustration is one thing, ugly behavior towards others another, although I, as I said earlier, I haven't seen much of that. The frustration however seems relatable and I see quite a bit of that.

    Regards,

    benalexander

  • ashstorm1ashstorm1 Member Posts: 639 Arc User
    I've come to a point where i've just put my Foundry series on hold till the myriad of bugs plaguing the Foundry as a whole starts getting worked on. The "No Reward" bug in particular is a major source of frustration for me, since my missions no longer get any exposure in sector space like they did in the past, and honestly, this is not motivating me to go on working on it.
  • starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,951 Arc User
    edited February 2019
    I've gone back to writing traditional fan fiction because the Foundry interface sucks. Bugs aside, the Foundry's been out for what, nine years, and they still won't give us the ability to place objects in 3D?
    patrickngo wrote: »
    Funny thing about pain, though. Everyone reacts to it differently. Some people shut down. Some people try to keep going and not think about it. Some of us, though, it focuses us. What doesn’t kill you may not make you stronger, but it sure as hell makes me angrier. It’s that old frenemy of mine, that righteous fury, that thirst for bloody payback.
    "Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
    — Sabaton, "Great War"
    VZ9ASdg.png

    Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
  • marty123#3757 marty123 Member Posts: 670 Arc User
    > @starswordc said:
    > I've gone back to writing traditional fan fiction because the Foundry interface sucks. Bugs aside, the Foundry's been out for what, nine years, and they still won't give us the ability to place objects in 3D?
    > patrickngo wrote: »
    >
    > Funny thing about pain, though. Everyone reacts to it differently. Some people shut down. Some people try to keep going and not think about it. Some of us, though, it focuses us. What doesn’t kill you may not make you stronger, but it sure as hell makes me angrier. It’s that old frenemy of mine, that righteous fury, that thirst for bloody payback.

    It’s still in Beta 0.8, it’s not even at the first Beta stage 🤦🏽‍♀️
  • starfarerthetastarfarertheta Member Posts: 738 Arc User
    No, it's not becoming toxic, if you think a few folks getting a bit fed up is toxic then I suggest you rethink your definition of the word.

    ....

    A question was asked, and it has yielded some answers. Although it's not really my definition of toxic that's worth worrying about, it's the developer's. I will give some thought to the question of when "toxic" is a justified term describing a community that insists everyone should be exposed to its misery, or when it is a label used to disparage a community simply because they expressed complaints about something (I don't think it's a binary thing btw).

    ...
    I would question why many of you foundry authors have given up writing missions? ....

    For me, making a new mission takes a level of time commitment that I can't give anymore (especially given the recent crop of bugs). I am taking this year to polish what I do have, however, but that isn't nearly as intensive as building something from scratch. Assuming the editor doesn't truly break before the year is out, or if I don't simply run out of free time altogether, I think some people could be surprised whenever they try my missions again come December, so it's something.

    ...

    As for me, I'm on episode 5 of Season 2 of our Star Trek: SRS series. If you want to see any SRS missions, just search SRS in the foundry, you should find about 45 of them, I have to make new accounts to keep publishing now lol.

    Here's the latest trailer for this year's mission arc.

    [vid]

    Impressive work. :)
  • hippiejonhippiejon Member Posts: 1,581 Arc User
    I would question why many of you foundry authors have given up writing missions?

    1.No outlines in the map editor when placing objects.
    (For many , custom maps are an important part of their mission creation. )

    2.No ability to create unique NPCs at all, that part is just plain broken.
    (For Many, custom NPCs are required as part of mission creation)

    3.Intermittant publishing fails.
    (Self explanatory)

    4.Stated by the Community Manager that no fixes are in the works , nor are Foundry Fixes even on the radar.
    (What's the point when they admit fixing the tool is no even part of their thinking)

    Yes, we could create missions with nothing but stock maPS and stock NPCs , but thats more a writing/creation "challenge" than the way that an author naturally writes.

    The tool is broken.
    They don't plan to fix it.
    I question why anyone would still use the tool at all.
  • ashstorm1ashstorm1 Member Posts: 639 Arc User
    hippiejon wrote: »
    I would question why many of you foundry authors have given up writing missions?

    1.No outlines in the map editor when placing objects.
    (For many , custom maps are an important part of their mission creation. )

    2.No ability to create unique NPCs at all, that part is just plain broken.
    (For Many, custom NPCs are required as part of mission creation)

    3.Intermittant publishing fails.
    (Self explanatory)

    4.Stated by the Community Manager that no fixes are in the works , nor are Foundry Fixes even on the radar.
    (What's the point when they admit fixing the tool is no even part of their thinking)

    Yes, we could create missions with nothing but stock maPS and stock NPCs , but thats more a writing/creation "challenge" than the way that an author naturally writes.

    The tool is broken.
    They don't plan to fix it.
    I question why anyone would still use the tool at all.

    Nailed it.

    What are we supposed to do if we need very specific NPCs that do not pre-exist in the editor (which is the case for me) ?

    Also, the absence of outlines in the map editor is making an already tedious placing process even more frustrating.
  • captainhunter1captainhunter1 Member Posts: 1,597 Arc User
    hippiejon wrote: »
    I've made a couple of snarky twitter posts about it, but for the most part, I don't think the community has become exactly "toxic". Mostly what I have seen from social media and the Starbase UGC Chatrooms is more of a sad acceptance.

    Personally, I've reached the point of not caring anymore.

    Foundry will never be any kind of priority to them. That's just a fact. If they stopped being short sighted about it, they could figure out how to monetize it (not that difficult). If it made them any cash flow, they'd care (at least a little).

    So, while I don't find it Toxic, I do feel a great sense of sadness from many long time authors. For many of us, Foundry is what kept us coming back. These days after almost a half a year of it being down, and then broken for authors, I rarely log in to do more than the daily to get the current event shiny.

    I've given up even hoping that the powers that be will ever find the time to fix it. I mean, I understand, development priorities and bug fixes toward the Foundry will always be at the bottom of their list.

    It's just truly sad that they are content to leave a part of the game many customers love in such a state.

    Very well said, and is exactly how I feel currently. (My snark crept into the game in the last Challenge as a last gasp at bringing some attention to the sad state the Foundry is in - but even that didn't work.)

    I agree the Foundry Community hasn't gotten toxic, we all still are trying to work together toward a common goal and I always see a great deal of respect toward one another here on the forums and various websites. Heck, authors many times go out of their way to promote and praise other people's work - which in the internet/video game venue is practically unheard of! lol

    And while on that subject, we have to remember it isn't Cryptic to blame, it's Perfect World Entertainment. I know there are a lot of very good folks at Cryptic who really love and support the Foundry. We have seen their praiseworthy effort, working on their own time to make things better. But this has become less and less over time, because PWE is putting the screws to them, forcing them to work harder on the next 'shiny' that will draw in players...money *cough* TRIBBLE content *cough*.

    The key here, as Hippiejon mentioned, is monetization. Until PWE sees that the Foundry makes money, they will just let it rot. The Foundry, as has been said many times, is a huge factor in player retention. However, that isn't easily measured with a metric, and becomes hidden as old players leave because of it but are replaced with new ones because of the new 'shiny' stuff. PWE don't realize that they could have both new and old players - and both PAYING money. Their shortsightedness has also overlooked another major money maker for them - using the Foundry as a limitless source of FREE labor/content for an exploration system in the game - something nearly everyone wants in Star Trek Online - that PWE could cleverly monetize (without killing it).

    Come on PWE, open your eyes, you have a tool here which is a win-win for everyone. You are losing money by letting it die.
  • captainhunter1captainhunter1 Member Posts: 1,597 Arc User
    edited February 2019
    Weird, the Edit Monster ate my post directly above - but it was auto-restored days later. Umm... okay?

    (Oh, and apparently the series term 'ST:D' is auto replaced with the word 'TRIBBLE' now)
    Post edited by captainhunter1 on
  • cerritourugcerritourug Member Posts: 1,376 Arc User
    edited February 2019
    If you have characters from previous missions then you can import the old mission to bring back the character, should work but not had to try it yet.

    You can still place objects, it's even more tedious now than it was but it's still possible, depends on how detailed you map is going to be, but for most space based maps it's not even a consideration. For ground of course it is difficult to say the least but it can be done.

    I don't think abandoning the foundry is the right way of going about getting it fixed, quite the contrary, but if you want to sulk about it that's up to you, I and others will continue persevering to get it fixed.


    "..more tedious.." "..still possible.." "..it is difficult to say the least.." In other words: not fun. Foundry is broken, like it or not, and it has been in that way for half a year now. Even PVP is on better state, yes, PVP is in better shape than the foundry.
    __________________________________________________

    Division Hispana
    www.divisionhispana.com
  • duncanidaho11duncanidaho11 Member Posts: 7,623 Arc User
    "..more tedious.." "..still possible.." "..it is difficult to say the least.." In other words: not fun. Foundry is broken, like it or not, and it has been in that way for half a year now. Even PVP is on better state, yes, PVP is in better shape than the foundry.

    It comes and goes though. For a while Neverwinter Foundry was in really bad shape. Now it's STO's. Cryptic's working toward fixes but as Kael's tried to explain they can't devote as much time to the Foundry as he'd like because of the business of running a game company. Other stuff has been jumping ahead in line and required dev time toon (ex. fixing major releases which the game depends on more directly.)

    That said, there's a definite argument to be made that management is missing a big opportunity in not having a working Foundry. Namely, using it as the nucleus for community interactions that are a hell of a lot more positive than other platforms (ex. the standard forums.) On top of supplying Cryptic with a breadth content they can't develop themselves, doing so at a frequency they can't match, doing narrative deep dives their mission format tends to struggle with, and providing a buffer for burning out both in the content creation side and content creators; the Foundry is template whose format sets positive and collaborative interactions which spill over to other parts of the community (both through dedicated Foundry players and dedicated Foundry authors.)

    Basically, complex social dynamics and an MMO darn well needs to support whatever nuclei it has for improving intracommunity interactions. So, as a general PSA, while the Foundry struggles to get back to normal what would help most is indulge in those positive aspects of community social discourse while making the point to the devs that they need to fix the map editor, costume editor, and the top 3 system (among other things.)

    Ie. get fiendishly and stupidly creative with downtime (highlighting just what we do best, even if we don't have our toolset) while pushing for Foundry bugs to remain on dev radar. I'm considering some creative exercises authors can take part in, relating either to a recent novel cover Thomas posted on twitter or my usual LT. Tardigrade doodling or something else (need to brainstorm with folks.)
    Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
    Last missions:
    Evolution's Smile [SSF:3-3]
    Epoch, Part 2 [AEI]
    Transcendence, Part 4
    Memorial Tour

    For the latest Tardigrades and other creative output: @Gorgonops_SSF
    Looking for something new to play? The interactive Foundry Mission Database has you covered.
  • spiritbornspiritborn Member Posts: 3,650 Arc User
    "..more tedious.." "..still possible.." "..it is difficult to say the least.." In other words: not fun. Foundry is broken, like it or not, and it has been in that way for half a year now. Even PVP is on better state, yes, PVP is in better shape than the foundry.

    It comes and goes though. For a while Neverwinter Foundry was in really bad shape. Now it's STO's. Cryptic's working toward fixes but as Kael's tried to explain they can't devote as much time to the Foundry as he'd like because of the business of running a game company. Other stuff has been jumping ahead in line and required dev time toon (ex. fixing major releases which the game depends on more directly.)

    That said, there's a definite argument to be made that management is missing a big opportunity in not having a working Foundry. Namely, using it as the nucleus for community interactions that are a hell of a lot more positive than other platforms (ex. the standard forums.) On top of supplying Cryptic with a breadth content they can't develop themselves, doing so at a frequency they can't match, doing narrative deep dives their mission format tends to struggle with, and providing a buffer for burning out both in the content creation side and content creators; the Foundry is template whose format sets positive and collaborative interactions which spill over to other parts of the community (both through dedicated Foundry players and dedicated Foundry authors.)

    Basically, complex social dynamics and an MMO darn well needs to support whatever nuclei it has for improving intracommunity interactions. So, as a general PSA, while the Foundry struggles to get back to normal what would help most is indulge in those positive aspects of community social discourse while making the point to the devs that they need to fix the map editor, costume editor, and the top 3 system (among other things.)

    Ie. get fiendishly and stupidly creative with downtime (highlighting just what we do best, even if we don't have our toolset) while pushing for Foundry bugs to remain on dev radar. I'm considering some creative exercises authors can take part in, relating either to a recent novel cover Thomas posted on twitter or my usual LT. Tardigrade doodling or something else (need to brainstorm with folks.)
    I've been either working on the "lore" for the teldralians (my own alien species) so I can get them as consistent as I can for my missions. I'm also slowly (due to the bugs) working on the "Operation Phoenix" and an unnamed KDF side pseudo sequel for it.
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,231 Arc User
    Well, as-is, the part that works best is the dialog editor. Soo... dialog, write ALL the dialog!
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
    Costume_marhawkman_Tsin%27xing_CC_Comic_Page_Blue_488916968.jpg
  • thay8472thay8472 Member Posts: 5,968 Arc User
    I've only used the foundry once for the Endeavours and that was when I just couldn't be bothered to fly to one of the battle zones.
  • designationxr377designationxr377 Member Posts: 542 Arc User
    I just want to say despite grievances, hope, frustration, and pain honestly felt by everyone involved with the Foundry I really appreciate the civility in which it is being discussed in this thread.

    There are a lot of hard truths out there, a lot of things that need to be dealt with. Things that all pull real emotions and attachment.

    While I myself have been brokenhearted by things Foundry related over the years nothing can be gained if we don't talk about it. Even in the worst possible end, if we don't talk about it we wouldn't cope with it well. I have been, displeased, by some responses in game and I have been pleased by others. But I have appreciated that the outright worthless rage fire has not appeared to burn my retinas out like a Stone Burner.

    Our willingness to talk and work for solutions, even if we can't work on much but discourse, is important and I appreciate it.
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