Endeavor Perks are too Powerful

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  • ltminns
    ltminns Member Posts: 12,481 Arc User
    edited February 2019
    Some think that others are overpowered :)

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  • markhawkman
    markhawkman Member Posts: 35,231 Arc User
    vendood wrote: »
    I mean, is it really so hard to conceive that "Gear score 1,000 and below, you get the Normal Red Alert", "Gear > 1,000, you get the Advanced version"? A gear score isn't hard to come up with, lots of games do it. Mk IV = 20 points per piece, Mk XV = 60 points. Rarity multiplier for each piece (White = .75, Green = 1, etc). Add some points for equipped ship traits and DOffs. Only has to be calculated once when ship loadout is changed. We're not talking rocket science here.
    Because that means nothing in terms of how effective you actually are in combat. That's not even all the stats. But good stats mean pretty much nothing with bad tactics.
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
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  • where2r1
    where2r1 Member Posts: 6,054 Arc User
    edited February 2019
    But good stats mean pretty much nothing with bad tactics.

    I have seen each of the enemy groups have different abilities and tactics...and one would need to adjust to.

    Na'kuhl was kicking my TRIBBLE all over until I figured out what the distortions were doing. And to do that I had to turn on the little flying numbers to see "immunity" floating off their ships. Before that I just left all those numbers off as there was "too much to watch on the screen".

    That was when I realized: Hey, they made the enemies into little puzzles to figure out, too. Cool.

    Before that little switcheroo turned on for me....I would just go in guns blazing. Sure I would die, and sure they would die. It did not bother me....because I would eventually "get them".

    But, figuring out that little puzzle of the tactics and abilities each "enemy faction" brings...is all part of the "battle" in the game. Pew Pew is fun...but figuring out the game is more fun.
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  • vendood
    vendood Member Posts: 74 Arc User
    vendood wrote: »
    I mean, is it really so hard to conceive that "Gear score 1,000 and below, you get the Normal Red Alert", "Gear > 1,000, you get the Advanced version"? A gear score isn't hard to come up with, lots of games do it. Mk IV = 20 points per piece, Mk XV = 60 points. Rarity multiplier for each piece (White = .75, Green = 1, etc). Add some points for equipped ship traits and DOffs. Only has to be calculated once when ship loadout is changed. We're not talking rocket science here.
    Because that means nothing in terms of how effective you actually are in combat. That's not even all the stats. But good stats mean pretty much nothing with bad tactics.

    I didn't type up a complete gear score calculator for STO, so of course the entire idea is bad, is that it? Messages are already way too long here, and all the biased people aren't paying attention to the details anyway. They just look for the first nit they can pick.

    Feel free to suggest your own method of providing suitably scaled content and challenges for people of wildly varying power levels in the game. Or, make a claim that putting little leaguers into major league games is a perfectly rational thing to do. Or flat out state, as many people here are avoiding doing, "It's not a problem for me and I don't give a damn if it's a problem for anyone else".

    However, going with "The quick partial example you tossed out is not completely perfect, therefore no solution is possible" is just a cheap cop-out.
  • markhawkman
    markhawkman Member Posts: 35,231 Arc User
    vendood wrote: »
    vendood wrote: »
    I mean, is it really so hard to conceive that "Gear score 1,000 and below, you get the Normal Red Alert", "Gear > 1,000, you get the Advanced version"? A gear score isn't hard to come up with, lots of games do it. Mk IV = 20 points per piece, Mk XV = 60 points. Rarity multiplier for each piece (White = .75, Green = 1, etc). Add some points for equipped ship traits and DOffs. Only has to be calculated once when ship loadout is changed. We're not talking rocket science here.
    Because that means nothing in terms of how effective you actually are in combat. That's not even all the stats. But good stats mean pretty much nothing with bad tactics.
    I didn't type up a complete gear score calculator for STO, so of course the entire idea is bad, is that it? Messages are already way too long here, and all the biased people aren't paying attention to the details anyway. They just look for the first nit they can pick.

    Feel free to suggest your own method of providing suitably scaled content and challenges for people of wildly varying power levels in the game. Or, make a claim that putting little leaguers into major league games is a perfectly rational thing to do. Or flat out state, as many people here are avoiding doing, "It's not a problem for me and I don't give a damn if it's a problem for anyone else".

    However, going with "The quick partial example you tossed out is not completely perfect, therefore no solution is possible" is just a cheap cop-out.
    Now who's not paying attention? Gear scores are worthless whether complete or incomplete. You could spend a year figuring out how to account for every single aspect of a space build, but it doesn't matter if the guy doing the flying stinks at using it.
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
    Costume_marhawkman_Tsin%27xing_CC_Comic_Page_Blue_488916968.jpg
  • vendood
    vendood Member Posts: 74 Arc User
    vendood wrote: »
    vendood wrote: »
    I mean, is it really so hard to conceive that "Gear score 1,000 and below, you get the Normal Red Alert", "Gear > 1,000, you get the Advanced version"? A gear score isn't hard to come up with, lots of games do it. Mk IV = 20 points per piece, Mk XV = 60 points. Rarity multiplier for each piece (White = .75, Green = 1, etc). Add some points for equipped ship traits and DOffs. Only has to be calculated once when ship loadout is changed. We're not talking rocket science here.
    Because that means nothing in terms of how effective you actually are in combat. That's not even all the stats. But good stats mean pretty much nothing with bad tactics.
    I didn't type up a complete gear score calculator for STO, so of course the entire idea is bad, is that it? Messages are already way too long here, and all the biased people aren't paying attention to the details anyway. They just look for the first nit they can pick.

    Feel free to suggest your own method of providing suitably scaled content and challenges for people of wildly varying power levels in the game. Or, make a claim that putting little leaguers into major league games is a perfectly rational thing to do. Or flat out state, as many people here are avoiding doing, "It's not a problem for me and I don't give a damn if it's a problem for anyone else".

    However, going with "The quick partial example you tossed out is not completely perfect, therefore no solution is possible" is just a cheap cop-out.
    Now who's not paying attention? Gear scores are worthless whether complete or incomplete. You could spend a year figuring out how to account for every single aspect of a space build, but it doesn't matter if the guy doing the flying stinks at using it.

    Cryptic uses gear scores in Neverwinter. It works most of the time in keeping people doing content that they are at least potentially capable of completing. No system is going to account for a guy who just sits and does nothing.

    Again, all you are saying here is that since a perfectly accurate solution is not possible, no solution should be attempted at all. Is a quick and easy approach that eliminates, say, 60% of a problem issue, not worth considering?

  • vendood
    vendood Member Posts: 74 Arc User
    (May be a re-post, 1 edit made the original disappear)
    vendood wrote: »
    vendood wrote: »
    I mean, is it really so hard to conceive that "Gear score 1,000 and below, you get the Normal Red Alert", "Gear > 1,000, you get the Advanced version"? A gear score isn't hard to come up with, lots of games do it. Mk IV = 20 points per piece, Mk XV = 60 points. Rarity multiplier for each piece (White = .75, Green = 1, etc). Add some points for equipped ship traits and DOffs. Only has to be calculated once when ship loadout is changed. We're not talking rocket science here.
    Because that means nothing in terms of how effective you actually are in combat. That's not even all the stats. But good stats mean pretty much nothing with bad tactics.
    I didn't type up a complete gear score calculator for STO, so of course the entire idea is bad, is that it? Messages are already way too long here, and all the biased people aren't paying attention to the details anyway. They just look for the first nit they can pick.

    Feel free to suggest your own method of providing suitably scaled content and challenges for people of wildly varying power levels in the game. Or, make a claim that putting little leaguers into major league games is a perfectly rational thing to do. Or flat out state, as many people here are avoiding doing, "It's not a problem for me and I don't give a damn if it's a problem for anyone else".

    However, going with "The quick partial example you tossed out is not completely perfect, therefore no solution is possible" is just a cheap cop-out.
    Now who's not paying attention? Gear scores are worthless whether complete or incomplete. You could spend a year figuring out how to account for every single aspect of a space build, but it doesn't matter if the guy doing the flying stinks at using it.

    Cryptic uses gear scores in Neverwinter. It works most of the time in keeping people doing content that they are at least potentially capable of completing. No system is going to account for the guy who just sits and does nothing for the match.

    Again, all you are saying here is that since a perfectly accurate solution is not possible, no solution should be attempted at all. Is a quick and easy approach that eliminates, say, 60% of a problem issue, not worth considering?

  • where2r1
    where2r1 Member Posts: 6,054 Arc User
    edited February 2019
    Endeavors have included all players who are into playing STO. Adding the thing that was missing before: rewarding the use of video game content and PvE. (Sorry, Admiralty is far from a video game experience)

    Frankly, we have what we have as far as systems and toys in the game goes. That is up to Cryptic. There are too many systems it turns into a bugged up mess. Frankly, if they add anything, they should add more Random TFO types. And get people to mingle it up some more. Not splitting them all up, again.

    The rest of it....that is on players.

    PvE players already sequestered themselves away in their own special bracketed categories they made up themselves. Where has this taken this game? It has completely gone to pot socially for casuals and Pugs...and they are not learning and PvE queues were empty except for a few that got run for fast "bucks" and parsers.

    There are bad apples shouting down casual players and pugs in game, high end players kill everything off before casuals and normal players can blink, players confused about a lot of the game mechanics they are leaving and others avoiding it all together.

    Everyone is so worried about a "upgrade" system, Reputation systems, Specialization system, and Endeavors perks. Lets rush through to collect marks, traits, specialization, gear. It becomes all about getting coins and getting points. Faster faster faster....go go go.

    SLOW DOWN! And look at what is going on.

    Is THAT what is important to play Star Trek Online video game...and play it well?
    That is what everyone wants, right?

    Should they practice (or maybe they can't because everything is gone??).
    Should they watch and know their enemies ("who cares if they are dead" is that the right answer here?).
    Should they know how their ship works or if it works for their play style (gosh ding it what numbers they parsed is useful for that?).
    Should they know how to adjust their gear for different situations or new ship (play testing is not over rated, is it?).
    Should they know what to watch for in the TFOs ("just kill it" is not the all encompassing answer for optionals, are they?).

    Don't give a partial picture.

    You need to talk about this stuff you do behind the scenes to get better. The testing...the practicing...the trial and errors. What you learn and understand from having run these missions and queues and new gear. And for some the years of battling this stuff yourself and with your teams.

    Be a Mentor. Make it better for everyone...new, returning, veteran STO players and seasoned video gamers and casuals, teams or solo. Because they are people...and they all capable of learning.
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  • markhawkman
    markhawkman Member Posts: 35,231 Arc User
    vendood wrote: »
    Again, all you are saying here is that since a perfectly accurate solution is not possible, no solution should be attempted at all. Is a quick and easy approach that eliminates, say, 60% of a problem issue, not worth considering?
    You think this would solve 60%? That's very... optimistic. Your "oh but NW does it!" means very little because in NW the gear system doesn't have anything even remotely comparable to the ship builds in STO. NW gear score is about as complicated as your captain's gear in STO, and JUST your captain's ground gear. So in NW it might be a 60% solution, but realistically, for space builds in STO it's not even close to being useful info.
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
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  • starswordc
    starswordc Member Posts: 10,951 Arc User
    Fun is OP, plz nerf /sarcasm
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  • vendood
    vendood Member Posts: 74 Arc User
    You guys are seriously over-thinking this.

    @markhawkman:
    Apparently you're unfamiliar with Neverwinter gear scores (Item Level). Item Level is composed of:

    -12 pieces of personal gear, with 1-3 enchantments on each (the enchantments count)
    -4 Artifacts
    -Up to 3 equipped Insignia on each of 5 mounts
    -5 companions
    -3 Runestones, and 3 pieces of gear, each of which has 1-2 enchantments, on your 'Active' companion
    -5 boons each from 14 different Campaigns
    -Any 'reinforcement' kits added to various pieces of your personal or active companions gear

    That's approx. 150 components, each of which has a great number of items, levels, and rarities per component. It's easily equivalent to an STO Captain/ship/gear/trait build.

    @coldnapalm:
    Two things. First, you are contending that given the same build, the same traits, the same team and same situation, one player will score 2K DPS and the other player will score 120K DPS. I have to call BS on that, unless you're assuming a 5-year old on one side and a top 2% player on the other. Regardless, it's irrelevant, as you don't need to account for that level of variability.

    You are also incorrect in that a NW top player will only do 3x as well as a casual, given the same build. Again, irrelevant.

    A 'useful and somewhat accurate' gear score is actually only needed if you want to implement a matchmaker or more than 3 levels of tiering. If you are only separating players into Normal and Advanced, with a possible Elite as well, then you can use something as simple as:
    - Gear up to Mk XII puts you in Normal
    - Gear Mk XIII - Mk XIV puts you in Advanced
    - Mk XV gear puts you in Advanced and also unlocks Elite.

    That alone would eliminate the majority of the "competing with people 100x as powerful as you for the same content" issue. Well, that plus Cryptic would also need to put in Normal/Advanced versions of Red Alerts etc.

    It would mostly (not completely) eliminate having top-20% players/DPSers in normal/beginner content. It would reduce a portion of "players joining Advanced/Elite queues who are completely incapable of contributing". It wouldn't help much in Battlezones or open areas like Nimbus, but at least those have options to go places where other people aren't.

    It would also allow some player flexibility. Want to join your buds in Normal content? Downgrade to a Mk XII build. Want to upgrade to join your buds in Advanced? Equip a single piece (or more) of Mk XIII or better.

    It wouldn't solve all the issue, and some people would and could still troll with it (a skilled player in a Mk XII Epic build with top traits etc. would steamroll Normal content); but it would alleviate most of the problem, for most players, most of the time.
  • tvalavulcan
    tvalavulcan Member Posts: 42 Arc User
    So in order to play normal tfo I would have to downgrade my equipment to mk XII. After having spent all that dilithium to upgrade, I can't even use them to play the way I want to. That would mean I would have to have multiple sets of weapons and gear on all 17 of my characters just to play the game. Not going to happen.
  • markhawkman
    markhawkman Member Posts: 35,231 Arc User
    vendood wrote: »
    You guys are seriously over-thinking this.
    That or you're under-appreciating the effect Skills and Boff powers have in space combat.
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
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  • warpangel
    warpangel Member Posts: 9,427 Arc User
    STO is easy if you pay attention. No amount of E15 gear is going to help if you don't know WTH you're doing.

    In fact, giving blind DPS to clueless players can make the situation even worse in some cases. For example, I was in a TFA run a while back with 3 players who were quite effective in killing the T's, but paid no attention to the mission objectives at all. Result: They buzzed around "defending" the homebase the entire time...while stupidly holding on to the bombs that would've been needed to attack the enemy bases.

    It would've actually been better if they had been typical bad players, who would've just died and I would've picked the bombs off their steaming wrecks.
  • seaofsorrows
    seaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,889 Arc User
    vendood wrote: »
    Two things. First, you are contending that given the same build, the same traits, the same team and same situation, one player will score 2K DPS and the other player will score 120K DPS. I have to call BS on that, unless you're assuming a 5-year old on one side and a top 2% player on the other. Regardless, it's irrelevant, as you don't need to account for that level of variability

    You can call B.S. all you want, but you would be so incredibly wrong it's laughable. There are people in this game that can take an undergeared, low tier ship and out DPS most players using the best of the best. People have long underestimated how much DPS in STO depends on skill, they think it's just 'get good gear and hit space bar," and they're very wrong.

    I run queues with some of the 'top DPS' guys on a regular basis, and we all run top of the line epic level builds. Still, a couple of them consistently out damage me, sometimes by double or even triple. If you think that it requires a '5 year old' on the opposite end of the spectrum then so be it.. but I can assure you that I can out damage at least 90% of the games player base and the elite still consistently outperform me. Why? Because they're the best. They understand the game in a way I simply don't. I can hang with them, sure.. I will be an asset in completing the mission, but they're always going to heavily out perform me because skill is the most important factor and they're simply better. Period.

    The only thing that 'Gear Scores' tell you is that the person has high end gear. Either they put in time doing the same repetitive and easy task over and over until they could afford it, or they just threw their wallet at the screen.. either way, it's no assurance of skill. I know people like to think that STO is all about gear, but they're wrong. Does it help? Of course it does.. but I can assure you that skill is still the most important factor.
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  • pwstolemyname
    pwstolemyname Member Posts: 1,417 Arc User
    vendood wrote: »
    The only thing that 'Gear Scores' tell you is that the person has high end gear.

    Agreed.

    For those arguing the point, let me throw my hat in against gear scores.

    In STO the right combination of abilities and gear is far far more important than the quality of said abilities and gear. I believe that a gear score system would lock players out of content, whilst doing nothing to raise the average competence of Pugs.

    People advocating gear score are trying to fix the wrong problem. They fail an STF and ask: "What did my teammates do wrong?" What they should be asking is: "What did I do wrong?"

    You don't need to lock other people out of content to complete it. Locking people out of content just means that the queues will stop popping and you won't be able to run them at all.

    Instead of blaming others for not doing their part, (Ok they may be rubbish but at least they brought the team up to the minimum player count right? so you couldn't have run the mission at all without them, be grateful.) why not work on your own build to the point that you can carry the team? Most STFs are soloable if you can be everywhere at once, which is doable with enough speed boosts (admittedly there are a couple of exceptions, most notably battle of korfez)


  • markhawkman
    markhawkman Member Posts: 35,231 Arc User
    The only thing that 'Gear Scores' tell you is that the person has high end gear.
    Agreed.

    For those arguing the point, let me throw my hat in against gear scores.

    In STO the right combination of abilities and gear is far far more important than the quality of said abilities and gear. I believe that a gear score system would lock players out of content, whilst doing nothing to raise the average competence of Pugs.

    People advocating gear score are trying to fix the wrong problem. They fail an STF and ask: "What did my teammates do wrong?" What they should be asking is: "What did I do wrong?"

    You don't need to lock other people out of content to complete it. Locking people out of content just means that the queues will stop popping and you won't be able to run them at all.

    Instead of blaming others for not doing their part, (Ok they may be rubbish but at least they brought the team up to the minimum player count right? so you couldn't have run the mission at all without them, be grateful.) why not work on your own build to the point that you can carry the team? Most STFs are soloable if you can be everywhere at once, which is doable with enough speed boosts (admittedly there are a couple of exceptions, most notably battle of korfez)
    Just for a single quick example of how stupid gear scores are... mk15 cannons... and beam powers. Or stacking EPG consoles, and no exotic damage powers. Great gear, nearly useless in combat.
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
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  • surgh
    surgh Member Posts: 45 Arc User
    edited February 2019
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    Post edited by baddmoonrizin on
  • forcemajeure
    forcemajeure Member Posts: 208 Arc User
    Well, I don't play STO at high level, but I do play Neverwinter almost every day. The system is there, it works, it generally keeps people sorted into doing content that they are capable of doing, and I almost never hear anyone complaining about it or saying it is ineffective.

    That said, when I am levelling in STO I don't really have problems with other peoples DPS. If someone is too low, you just take up the slack. If other people are too high, you focus on getting somewhere you can do damage and get there as fast as you can. I picked up a couple AFKs back before I learned how to get around it, no problems since then.

    Of course, I did all that before they changed RAs, random TFOs, personal endeavors and what-not... so maybe it's different now or will be different in 6 months. Wait and see, I guess.
  • grendelthewise#0990
    grendelthewise#0990 Member Posts: 635 Arc User
    edited February 2019
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    Post edited by baddmoonrizin on
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  • surgh
    surgh Member Posts: 45 Arc User
    edited February 2019
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  • seaofsorrows
    seaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,889 Arc User
    edited February 2019
    surgh wrote: »
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    We're right here every day trying to help people.

    The burden is on those that need help to ask for it. There is no online community more forthcoming with information then Star Trek Online.
    Post edited by baddmoonrizin on
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  • peterconnorfirst
    peterconnorfirst Member Posts: 6,223 Arc User
    edited February 2019
    surgh wrote: »
    warpangel wrote: »
    STO is easy if you pay attention. No amount of E15 gear is going to help if you don't know WTH you're doing.

    In fact, giving blind DPS to clueless players can make the situation even worse in some cases. For example, I was in a TFA run a while back with 3 players who were quite effective in killing the T's, but paid no attention to the mission objectives at all. Result: They buzzed around "defending" the homebase the entire time...while stupidly holding on to the bombs that would've been needed to attack the enemy bases.

    It would've actually been better if they had been typical bad players, who would've just died and I would've picked the bombs off their steaming wrecks.

    And let me guess, you did not say one word, try to help the "clueless" player or anything but cry about "clueless" players. Here is a CLUE for you, not everyone knows every TFO and if no one has CLUE enough to say anything to anyone...are we supposed to read your damm mind. I dont know how you elitists have enough room in your ship for your ego.

    Players like @seaofsorrows @coldnapalm @protoneous and many others have been here for years helping peeps whenever they can. Problem is that most don’t want any help and rather see the core rules of the game changed instead of simply adjusting to them.

    In game we have the STO league where it’s admins are constantly providing build aid and guide to maps and tasks. Some of those players have been around for 9 years and know the game like no one else. Problem here is that too many already go berserk already when they read the term DPS and simply condemn everything that comes out of that corner.

    Peeps who want help get help. :)
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  • markhawkman
    markhawkman Member Posts: 35,231 Arc User
    Well, I don't play STO at high level, but I do play Neverwinter almost every day. The system is there, it works, it generally keeps people sorted into doing content that they are capable of doing, and I almost never hear anyone complaining about it or saying it is ineffective.
    I'm not saying it doesn't work in NW, just that ship builds in STO are a lot more complex than character builds in NW.

    In part this is because any character class can fly any ship. In NW a wizard does wizard stuff they don't hack people apart with a sword...
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
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  • pwstolemyname
    pwstolemyname Member Posts: 1,417 Arc User
    edited February 2019
    Well, I don't play STO at high level, but I do play Neverwinter almost every day. The system is there, it works, it generally keeps people sorted into doing content that they are capable of doing, and I almost never hear anyone complaining about it or saying it is ineffective.
    I'm not saying it doesn't work in NW, just that ship builds in STO are a lot more complex than character builds in NW.

    In part this is because any character class can fly any ship. In NW a wizard does wizard stuff they don't hack people apart with a sword...

    ^^^ This.

    If STO had the trinity (Thank Q it dose not), and gear was locked into specific classes then a gear score system could at least guarantee a minimum level of performance, provided the player is actually there pressing buttons. There will still be a large degree of variance between those who chose X and and those who chose Y stat to maximize, but with gear locked more or less to a classes role the system can work.

    But STO simply doesn't work like that. A gear score system would have to assess builds in a far more complex way then simply rating them by mark and rarity level. Hear are some examples:
    • With MK XV epic gear someone could have gear that maximizes flow capacitors, but that person might only use control powers.
    • They might pump everything they can into critical damage, but have next to no critical chance, thus make poor use of it.
    • They might pump their resistances to kingdom come, but generate no threat and do no damage.
    • They might use only Mk XII very rare gear but by synergising their build and piloting smartly they could outperform all of the above.

    Now don't get me wrong. There is a world of difference between the performance of my main toon, who has all the fully upgraded shiny toys, and my loosers(alts) who have squat. Higher quality gear has become a lot more important since the introduction of MK levels beyond MK XII.

    BUT synergy trumps quality every time. It is far more important to use the right combination then the highest quality items, which is where many people go wrong, and why a gear score system will not work for STO. The only thing it will achieve is limit peoples access to content.

  • casualsto
    casualsto Member Posts: 672 Arc User
    vendood wrote: »
    It's unfortunate that @darkbladejk's request to "not start throwing names around" has fallen on blind eyes, as have many of my own remarks. It's equally unfortunate that some people think "If you don't have everything I have, then you're a scrub", is a useful commentary on a valid issue.

    To be even more clear:

    - I am not asking for nerfs to the Endeavour system. I like the PE's, although there are some issues (18 dreadnoughts, things that should count but don't, kill 120 scorpions etc.). Personally I would have capped the system out at +5% CritH and +20% on the damages, CritD and resists, but whatever. It's fine.

    - I do not have any problem completing/competing for content/XP/rewards in the game. I can do everything I care to.

    - Most replies in the thread range vary across the range:

    "Power creep is natural and okay and nothing should be done about it."

    "Adding +10% or +20% or +30% to someone's Speed, Damage, CrtD and resists, and up to 7.5% CrtH isn't really a big deal and won't make much difference."

    "Newer/less capable players shouldn't be running content if they can't compete with a guy who has 40 ship traits unlocked, MK XV epic gear, knows where everything is and what to do because he's done it 100 times before. Red Alert events are for the big boys, newb, not you!"

    "I climbed to the top of the power heap while it was still being created. When 30k DPS was a 'high end DPS' number. The fact that we now have 300K dps and up players is irrelevant. New players can suck it up or GTFO"

    "New guys who start with nothing should play solo content until they are at the top end."

    "If you are in my Red Alert/TFO/BZ struggling to get kills/XP/rewards/completions, and you can't compete against me, and you think maybe something should be changed because of that... you are just 'jealous' of my uberness. This is all completely fair. Go run solo content or GTFO."

    "Cryptic had problems with some things before because people stacked a bunch of things together that, in combination, made people ridiculously powerful. However, stacking +30% Speed, +30% Damage, +30% CrtD, +7.5% CrtH, +30% Resists etc. won't cause problems, because... reasons"

    To be even more more clear:

    When I say "some forethought should be put into the issue before it becomes a problem", I mean things like:

    - A gear score and some sort of matchmaker to put people into content with people who aren't 50x more powerful than them.

    - A 'gateway' unlock of some sort. Until you complete the solo gateway check, you can't run Advanced content. After you complete the gateway, you can't run Normal. Events like Red Alerts get split into Normal and Advanced versions.

    - If STO continues to put newer/less capable players into the same content as megaDPSers, then some sort of buff/boost could be applied to them so that they aren't quite so ridiculously far behind.

    As others have said, it is very hard/next to impossible to balance a game that puts less experienced, less geared, less developed players into the same content that has players who are 100x more powerful and experienced. I am just saying that maybe the attempt should be made, rather than simply having the most powerful players effectively saying "Hey, it's not a problem for me. If it's a problem for you, new guy, you should just go play something else."

    Okay, let's address this.

    1. A guy who tries to undermine other's performance and (involuntarely) ruin a good product that most of us play and support is not a community-friendly individual.
    2. Taking the victim stance because you have been called on your cow-drop is bad.
    3. The amount of how much of a scrub a player is .... Is not related TO THE GEAR. It's simply related to the attitude. If you're completely freebie user and you put your stuff together in a free ship and you contribute to the effort of your team in TFO's, you are a proud contributor.
    4. The "scrub" or deadweights are people who come and expect to be carried without making those efforts that all of us do. It's about the effort, not about if you're a 300k dps runner.
    5. The community managers are not your tutors that should defend your opinions or guzzle others' opinions to help you feel important. They're here to ensure that the forum is used properly. Name calling presumes that you say specifically "Joe is a piece of gum". So take things as they are, at face value.
    6. Adding those things will result in Cat1 buffs or Cat2 buffs that are facing diminishing returns. The bonuses overall are not that heavy, regardless of how hard you wanna smash feature-socialism over successful users who farm and do these.
    7. When you people complain about people who put money in a game and people who got lots of stuff... What is going on through your head? If those guys who fire up 100 keys at least each weekend wouldn't be doing this, you wouldn't have a functional exchange and market ingame. Any item you'd need would be so rare and expensive that you'd be using minimal gear and would be unable to complete any advanced content. These people support the game financially and offer supply and affordable ingame prices.
    8. Nobody cares that you compare yourself with guys who play this for a few years and expect to perform identically. This is not Battle Royale. This is something else.
    9. This community has a bunch of friendly people who help anyone who wishes to improve. And there are generous ingame people also.

    Unless this is supposed to turn into a slander-fest, I think that this topic is already solved and keeping this topic open is only asking for flaming further.

    I'd respectfully ask for the moderators to close this after weighing in if this is a worth-keeping topic open.

    And I would like to salute the respectful, active and friendly community of STO.
  • peterconnorfirst
    peterconnorfirst Member Posts: 6,223 Arc User
    casualsto wrote: »
    vendood wrote: »
    It's unfortunate that @darkbladejk's request to "not start throwing names around" has fallen on blind eyes, as have many of my own remarks. It's equally unfortunate that some people think "If you don't have everything I have, then you're a scrub", is a useful commentary on a valid issue.

    To be even more clear:

    - I am not asking for nerfs to the Endeavour system. I like the PE's, although there are some issues (18 dreadnoughts, things that should count but don't, kill 120 scorpions etc.). Personally I would have capped the system out at +5% CritH and +20% on the damages, CritD and resists, but whatever. It's fine.

    - I do not have any problem completing/competing for content/XP/rewards in the game. I can do everything I care to.

    - Most replies in the thread range vary across the range:

    "Power creep is natural and okay and nothing should be done about it."

    "Adding +10% or +20% or +30% to someone's Speed, Damage, CrtD and resists, and up to 7.5% CrtH isn't really a big deal and won't make much difference."

    "Newer/less capable players shouldn't be running content if they can't compete with a guy who has 40 ship traits unlocked, MK XV epic gear, knows where everything is and what to do because he's done it 100 times before. Red Alert events are for the big boys, newb, not you!"

    "I climbed to the top of the power heap while it was still being created. When 30k DPS was a 'high end DPS' number. The fact that we now have 300K dps and up players is irrelevant. New players can suck it up or GTFO"

    "New guys who start with nothing should play solo content until they are at the top end."

    "If you are in my Red Alert/TFO/BZ struggling to get kills/XP/rewards/completions, and you can't compete against me, and you think maybe something should be changed because of that... you are just 'jealous' of my uberness. This is all completely fair. Go run solo content or GTFO."

    "Cryptic had problems with some things before because people stacked a bunch of things together that, in combination, made people ridiculously powerful. However, stacking +30% Speed, +30% Damage, +30% CrtD, +7.5% CrtH, +30% Resists etc. won't cause problems, because... reasons"

    To be even more more clear:

    When I say "some forethought should be put into the issue before it becomes a problem", I mean things like:

    - A gear score and some sort of matchmaker to put people into content with people who aren't 50x more powerful than them.

    - A 'gateway' unlock of some sort. Until you complete the solo gateway check, you can't run Advanced content. After you complete the gateway, you can't run Normal. Events like Red Alerts get split into Normal and Advanced versions.

    - If STO continues to put newer/less capable players into the same content as megaDPSers, then some sort of buff/boost could be applied to them so that they aren't quite so ridiculously far behind.

    As others have said, it is very hard/next to impossible to balance a game that puts less experienced, less geared, less developed players into the same content that has players who are 100x more powerful and experienced. I am just saying that maybe the attempt should be made, rather than simply having the most powerful players effectively saying "Hey, it's not a problem for me. If it's a problem for you, new guy, you should just go play something else."

    Okay, let's address this.

    1. A guy who tries to undermine other's performance and (involuntarely) ruin a good product that most of us play and support is not a community-friendly individual.
    2. Taking the victim stance because you have been called on your cow-drop is bad.
    3. The amount of how much of a scrub a player is .... Is not related TO THE GEAR. It's simply related to the attitude. If you're completely freebie user and you put your stuff together in a free ship and you contribute to the effort of your team in TFO's, you are a proud contributor.
    4. The "scrub" or deadweights are people who come and expect to be carried without making those efforts that all of us do. It's about the effort, not about if you're a 300k dps runner.
    5. The community managers are not your tutors that should defend your opinions or guzzle others' opinions to help you feel important. They're here to ensure that the forum is used properly. Name calling presumes that you say specifically "Joe is a piece of gum". So take things as they are, at face value.
    6. Adding those things will result in Cat1 buffs or Cat2 buffs that are facing diminishing returns. The bonuses overall are not that heavy, regardless of how hard you wanna smash feature-socialism over successful users who farm and do these.
    7. When you people complain about people who put money in a game and people who got lots of stuff... What is going on through your head? If those guys who fire up 100 keys at least each weekend wouldn't be doing this, you wouldn't have a functional exchange and market ingame. Any item you'd need would be so rare and expensive that you'd be using minimal gear and would be unable to complete any advanced content. These people support the game financially and offer supply and affordable ingame prices.
    8. Nobody cares that you compare yourself with guys who play this for a few years and expect to perform identically. This is not Battle Royale. This is something else.
    9. This community has a bunch of friendly people who help anyone who wishes to improve. And there are generous ingame people also.

    Unless this is supposed to turn into a slander-fest, I think that this topic is already solved and keeping this topic open is only asking for flaming further.

    I'd respectfully ask for the moderators to close this after weighing in if this is a worth-keeping topic open.

    And I would like to salute the respectful, active and friendly community of STO.

    Wow, cool post. B)
    animated.gif
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    felisean wrote: »
    teamwork to reach a goal is awesome and highly appreciated
    Bring it on
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    wishful thinking is not really a reliable source
  • casualsto
    casualsto Member Posts: 672 Arc User
    casualsto wrote: »
    vendood wrote: »
    It's unfortunate that @darkbladejk's request to "not start throwing names around" has fallen on blind eyes, as have many of my own remarks. It's equally unfortunate that some people think "If you don't have everything I have, then you're a scrub", is a useful commentary on a valid issue.

    To be even more clear:

    - I am not asking for nerfs to the Endeavour system. I like the PE's, although there are some issues (18 dreadnoughts, things that should count but don't, kill 120 scorpions etc.). Personally I would have capped the system out at +5% CritH and +20% on the damages, CritD and resists, but whatever. It's fine.

    - I do not have any problem completing/competing for content/XP/rewards in the game. I can do everything I care to.

    - Most replies in the thread range vary across the range:

    "Power creep is natural and okay and nothing should be done about it."

    "Adding +10% or +20% or +30% to someone's Speed, Damage, CrtD and resists, and up to 7.5% CrtH isn't really a big deal and won't make much difference."

    "Newer/less capable players shouldn't be running content if they can't compete with a guy who has 40 ship traits unlocked, MK XV epic gear, knows where everything is and what to do because he's done it 100 times before. Red Alert events are for the big boys, newb, not you!"

    "I climbed to the top of the power heap while it was still being created. When 30k DPS was a 'high end DPS' number. The fact that we now have 300K dps and up players is irrelevant. New players can suck it up or GTFO"

    "New guys who start with nothing should play solo content until they are at the top end."

    "If you are in my Red Alert/TFO/BZ struggling to get kills/XP/rewards/completions, and you can't compete against me, and you think maybe something should be changed because of that... you are just 'jealous' of my uberness. This is all completely fair. Go run solo content or GTFO."

    "Cryptic had problems with some things before because people stacked a bunch of things together that, in combination, made people ridiculously powerful. However, stacking +30% Speed, +30% Damage, +30% CrtD, +7.5% CrtH, +30% Resists etc. won't cause problems, because... reasons"

    To be even more more clear:

    When I say "some forethought should be put into the issue before it becomes a problem", I mean things like:

    - A gear score and some sort of matchmaker to put people into content with people who aren't 50x more powerful than them.

    - A 'gateway' unlock of some sort. Until you complete the solo gateway check, you can't run Advanced content. After you complete the gateway, you can't run Normal. Events like Red Alerts get split into Normal and Advanced versions.

    - If STO continues to put newer/less capable players into the same content as megaDPSers, then some sort of buff/boost could be applied to them so that they aren't quite so ridiculously far behind.

    As others have said, it is very hard/next to impossible to balance a game that puts less experienced, less geared, less developed players into the same content that has players who are 100x more powerful and experienced. I am just saying that maybe the attempt should be made, rather than simply having the most powerful players effectively saying "Hey, it's not a problem for me. If it's a problem for you, new guy, you should just go play something else."

    Okay, let's address this.

    1. A guy who tries to undermine other's performance and (involuntarely) ruin a good product that most of us play and support is not a community-friendly individual.
    2. Taking the victim stance because you have been called on your cow-drop is bad.
    3. The amount of how much of a scrub a player is .... Is not related TO THE GEAR. It's simply related to the attitude. If you're completely freebie user and you put your stuff together in a free ship and you contribute to the effort of your team in TFO's, you are a proud contributor.
    4. The "scrub" or deadweights are people who come and expect to be carried without making those efforts that all of us do. It's about the effort, not about if you're a 300k dps runner.
    5. The community managers are not your tutors that should defend your opinions or guzzle others' opinions to help you feel important. They're here to ensure that the forum is used properly. Name calling presumes that you say specifically "Joe is a piece of gum". So take things as they are, at face value.
    6. Adding those things will result in Cat1 buffs or Cat2 buffs that are facing diminishing returns. The bonuses overall are not that heavy, regardless of how hard you wanna smash feature-socialism over successful users who farm and do these.
    7. When you people complain about people who put money in a game and people who got lots of stuff... What is going on through your head? If those guys who fire up 100 keys at least each weekend wouldn't be doing this, you wouldn't have a functional exchange and market ingame. Any item you'd need would be so rare and expensive that you'd be using minimal gear and would be unable to complete any advanced content. These people support the game financially and offer supply and affordable ingame prices.
    8. Nobody cares that you compare yourself with guys who play this for a few years and expect to perform identically. This is not Battle Royale. This is something else.
    9. This community has a bunch of friendly people who help anyone who wishes to improve. And there are generous ingame people also.

    Unless this is supposed to turn into a slander-fest, I think that this topic is already solved and keeping this topic open is only asking for flaming further.

    I'd respectfully ask for the moderators to close this after weighing in if this is a worth-keeping topic open.

    And I would like to salute the respectful, active and friendly community of STO.

    Wow, cool post. B)

    Thank you.
This discussion has been closed.