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How do you arm your Avenger (if you have one)?

starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,913 Arc User
This is for research: A friend is doing work on a Star Trek mod for Star Wars: Empire at War, The Trek Wars: Revival, and wanted to know how people typically kit out the Avenger and/or Arbiter Battlecruiser (it's going in the free play section of the mod, not the campaign).

This poll is just about energy weapons; every Starfleet capital ship in the mod has torpedoes fore and aft already. And there weren't enough poll option slots to split between DCs and DHCs or list mixed loads, so just put what you have the most of.

How do you arm your Avenger (if you have one)? 39 votes

dual cannons front, turrets rear
30%
duncanidaho11spencerb96xxxhellspawnyxxxseaofsorrowstunebreakersalazarrazejtoney3448raygor76starswordctasshenacasualstothelematiker 12 votes
dual cannons front, beam arrays rear
2%
dante8175 1 vote
dual beams front, turrets rear
0%
dual beams front, beam arrays rear
38%
gaevsmanmustrumridcully0dracounguispatrickngopostagepaidfred26291#2759dagomay86sisko09tm706w00qdarkbladejkjamieblanchardtvalavulcandiscojercaptmack68 15 votes
single cannons front, turrets rear (cannon broadside)
0%
single cannons front, beam arrays rear
0%
all beam arrays (beam broadside)
23%
protoneousquesteriusrattler2stouteskyle223cattheraven2378djf021tyler002tacticoolfugga#9235 9 votes
all turrets
5%
jslynjade1280 2 votes
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Comments

  • darkbladejkdarkbladejk Member Posts: 2,310 Community Moderator
    dual beams front, beam arrays rear
    dual banks forward with arrays/omnis rear. Main reason is because she doesn't turn as fast as I like for my cannon builds to be able to turn. Usually I prefer the defiant as a minimum benchmark turn rate for my cannon builds. just my personal preference though.
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  • captainkoltarcaptainkoltar Member Posts: 623 Arc User
    Beam arrays and torpedoes here.

    For me, the Avenger is clearly a cruiser rather than an escort, therefore it should have beams.
  • starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,913 Arc User
    dual cannons front, turrets rear
    Surprised at the results so far, I figured more people would try to run it with DHCs. I've done pretty well with that.
    "Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
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  • avoozuulavoozuul Member Posts: 2,718 Arc User
    I used to try it with cannons but I found beams more effective, however I last stopped using my antiproton weapons for a disruptor build and have only made a beam version since then.
  • salazarrazesalazarraze Member Posts: 3,649 Arc User
    edited January 2019
    dual cannons front, turrets rear
    My unoptimized setup is similar to my other unoptimized ships. 1 front Neutronic Torp for TS3 fun. 4 dual cannons (NOT DHC's) and 3 turrets. It usually parses out around 80-90k. Pretty tanky too for the most part.
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  • jslynjslyn Member Posts: 1,685 Arc User
    all turrets
    I did not use the Avenger for very long, but I used the All Turrets set up that I normally use on my for-fun Galaxy-X. That includes the Console Slot Turrets. Pure Machinegunny Joy.
  • davefenestratordavefenestrator Member Posts: 8,167 Arc User
    For my Arbiters it 's usually beam arrays and a torp.

    I tend to include a torpedo on every ship for the flavor and also the fun of torpedo spread after a gravity well.
  • duncanidaho11duncanidaho11 Member Posts: 7,608 Arc User
    dual cannons front, turrets rear
    3 DHC's front, 2 torps front, 3 turrets rear. I set mine up as a torpedo and kinetic damage boat (ex. using spatial charge launcher console from lock box and console from the NX) to alpha strike big targets like gateways with explosions. It's a lot of fun for a change of pace. My Kurak though is running a Dual Beam Bank + Omni build (in trying to be more sensibly good.)
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  • tyler002tyler002 Member Posts: 1,585 Arc User
    all beam arrays (beam broadside)
    I normally tend to stick with Federation standard (1 torp fore/aft, the rest conventional beams) for all my ships except for special cases like the Defiant Class.
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  • stoutesstoutes Member Posts: 4,219 Arc User
    all beam arrays (beam broadside)
    I prefer an Avenger as a beamboat, it's neither a Cruiser nor an Escort, it's preferable to play it with beams as it's just a tad too slow to compete with true Escorts.
  • anazondaanazonda Member Posts: 8,379 Arc User
    With a Full body armor... Or a shiel... oh... Not talking marvel...

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  • dracounguisdracounguis Member Posts: 5,363 Arc User
    edited January 2019
    dual beams front, beam arrays rear
    My exact setup wasn't listed: beams with one DHC or quad cannon.
  • discojerdiscojer Member Posts: 441 Arc User
    dual beams front, beam arrays rear
    Beam Banks in front. It's agile enough for that, but IMHO, not for cannons. But then I only use cannons on pilot ships, even my character who uses the NX Refit uses beam banks in front.
  • casualstocasualsto Member Posts: 599 Arc User
    dual cannons front, turrets rear
    Mostly DBB+omnies or DHC/DC+turrets. Mostly running phasers on Arbiter before it was cool from the dps standpoint.
  • questeriusquesterius Member Posts: 7,257 Arc User
    all beam arrays (beam broadside)
    starswordc wrote: »
    Surprised at the results so far, I figured more people would try to run it with DHCs. I've done pretty well with that.

    To be honest, i haven't used the Avenger much lately so it still holds the beam array/omni setup.
    I have a DHC/turret setup on my Kurak, but i don't feel i get the most out of the ship using that setup
    https://sto.gamepedia.com/Kurak_Battlecruiser

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  • jamieblanchardjamieblanchard Member Posts: 465 Arc User
    dual beams front, beam arrays rear
    As with most of my ships I tend to go either all arrays, with an omni riding in the back, or duals up front with arrays and omni in the back. Maybe a torpedo up front if I'm using a set, such as quantum phaser one you get from Sunrise.
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  • postagepaidpostagepaid Member Posts: 2,567 Arc User
    dual beams front, beam arrays rear
    I've never been a huge fan of cannon weapons in STO and the avenger is one of the first ships that I can recall using DBB's up front as more than a stopgap while levelling.

    Not a nimble as an escort but could take more of a beating so to me it was a better ship, never really been a fan of escorts in STO either although will admit to them being kind of fun on console despite the woeful implementation of skill wheels.
  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 8,792 Arc User
    edited January 2019
    dual cannons front, turrets rear
    stoutes wrote: »
    I prefer an Avenger as a beamboat, it's neither a Cruiser nor an Escort, it's preferable to play it with beams as it's just a tad too slow to compete with true Escorts.

    If I may pose a question.. what does this mean exactly?

    Dual Beam Banks are the hardest front facing weapons to use. If you can keep Dual Beams on target, it's literally twice as easy to keep cannons on target since Scatter Volley has a 90' arc instead of 45'. The Arbiter/Avenger is more then agile enough, especially with Competitive Engines. If you use the Withering Barrage trait from the T6 Defiant you can essentially keep Scatter Volley up all the time (well, 99% of the time) and permanently increase your firing arc to 90'.

    You could literally swap your DBB's for Cannons, put some turrets in the back and just change the Fire At Will in your rotation to Scatter Volley and double (or more) your DPS for the exact same effort.

    Dual Beams are not 'bad,' but their big problem is that they perform worse then cannons for more expended effort. I am kind of surprised at the number of people using them.
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  • tunebreakertunebreaker Member Posts: 1,222 Arc User
    dual cannons front, turrets rear
    patrickngo wrote: »
    -snip-

    What you're saying in trying to rebut Sea consists almost entirely of lies, misconceptions and antiquated knowledge.

    Sure, Sea made a mistake in saying that while using DC's, it's *easier* to keep enemies in arc and used a common misconception about CSV (namely, while CSV indeed scans the 90' arc area, it doesn't magically widen the firing arc of D(H)C's, it just makes your weapons that have wider arcs than 45' to potentially hit additional targets that are outside that further away from your main target than what your DCs can hit, but still inside the 90' firing arc that CSV scans).

    However, he is completely correct in saying that cannons have immensely higher DPS potential than beams and you have to be incredibly klutz with your piloting if beams indeed perform better for you. The DPS penalty from FAW cripples beam dmg output heavily, meanwhile CSV offers a dmg boost instead (at least on CSV2/3, and you should really use the highest enhancement possible). On a ship with Cmdr Tactical, FAW3+APB3 won't even come close to the combination of CSV3+APB1 (or 2, if 2 Lt. Cmdr tac seats are open as you also preferably want KLW3).

    Cycle time differences have hardly anything to do with DPS, as it only affects weapon power management very mildly. In reality it will only be a problem on very starter builds. And sure, DHCs use 12 weapon power instead of 10, but then again DC's exist which also use 10 and turrets only use 8.

    Subsystem targeting abilities, as well as doffs that affect them (or specifically beam abilities, I'm not sure which doffs you're exactly talking about) have also hardly any impact since no one in their right mind uses them.

    Damage dropoff has been equal for beams and cannons already for years, since skilltree revamp in... 2016, I guess?

    Then we have Withering Barrage which extends your CSV to have an ideal uptime of 93.333...% (sorry Sea, I had to correct that :D ). With lag and activation struggles, let's put it at 90%. Still, that comes with the only disadvantage of "sacrificing" a trait slot. While beams have an equivalent to that, Redirecting Arrays, that trait *forces* you to draw aggro, making it really viable only on tanks. On top of that, BFAW's minimum CD is 20s, higher than CSV's 15s.

    Also, let's take a look at the DPS league - high-end cannon builds (on ships with turn rates lower than Arbiter's, like good old Scimitar, or new Vaadwaur Juggernaut) are breaking 300k DPS, meanwhile there are hardly any beam builds doing 150k+. Those few that are, are using single beams.

    So yeah, I'll give you that it's slightly easier to get your enemies in sights using DBBs, and that Sea messed up explaining the firing arcs, but you're dead wrong trying to push the agenda as if beams are somehow stronger. They are so far behind cannons in terms of actual performance that it's sad, and I'd actually love to see BFAW getting performance boost from Cryptic.
  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 8,792 Arc User
    edited January 2019
    dual cannons front, turrets rear
    patrickngo wrote: »
    -snip-

    What you're saying in trying to rebut Sea consists almost entirely of lies, misconceptions and antiquated knowledge.

    Sure, Sea made a mistake in saying that while using DC's, it's *easier* to keep enemies in arc and used a common misconception about CSV (namely, while CSV indeed scans the 90' arc area, it doesn't magically widen the firing arc of D(H)C's, it just makes your weapons that have wider arcs than 45' to potentially hit additional targets that are outside that further away from your main target than what your DCs can hit, but still inside the 90' firing arc that CSV scans).

    However, he is completely correct in saying that cannons have immensely higher DPS potential than beams and you have to be incredibly klutz with your piloting if beams indeed perform better for you. The DPS penalty from FAW cripples beam dmg output heavily, meanwhile CSV offers a dmg boost instead (at least on CSV2/3, and you should really use the highest enhancement possible). On a ship with Cmdr Tactical, FAW3+APB3 won't even come close to the combination of CSV3+APB1 (or 2, if 2 Lt. Cmdr tac seats are open as you also preferably want KLW3).

    Cycle time differences have hardly anything to do with DPS, as it only affects weapon power management very mildly. In reality it will only be a problem on very starter builds. And sure, DHCs use 12 weapon power instead of 10, but then again DC's exist which also use 10 and turrets only use 8.

    Subsystem targeting abilities, as well as doffs that affect them (or specifically beam abilities, I'm not sure which doffs you're exactly talking about) have also hardly any impact since no one in their right mind uses them.

    Damage dropoff has been equal for beams and cannons already for years, since skilltree revamp in... 2016, I guess?

    Then we have Withering Barrage which extends your CSV to have an ideal uptime of 93.333...% (sorry Sea, I had to correct that :D ). With lag and activation struggles, let's put it at 90%. Still, that comes with the only disadvantage of "sacrificing" a trait slot. While beams have an equivalent to that, Redirecting Arrays, that trait *forces* you to draw aggro, making it really viable only on tanks. On top of that, BFAW's minimum CD is 20s, higher than CSV's 15s.

    Also, let's take a look at the DPS league - high-end cannon builds (on ships with turn rates lower than Arbiter's, like good old Scimitar, or new Vaadwaur Juggernaut) are breaking 300k DPS, meanwhile there are hardly any beam builds doing 150k+. Those few that are, are using single beams.

    So yeah, I'll give you that it's slightly easier to get your enemies in sights using DBBs, and that Sea messed up explaining the firing arcs, but you're dead wrong trying to push the agenda as if beams are somehow stronger. They are so far behind cannons in terms of actual performance that it's sad, and I'd actually love to see BFAW getting performance boost from Cryptic.

    I will just quote this and use it as my reply.

    I apologize for the mistake I made in firing arc, I am human.. sue me. I don't use DBB's anymore and thought they had the same arc, that was incorrect, my bad. Thank you to Tune for the reply, he corrected the mistake and summed it up nicely.

    patrick, I will not respond to you if you're going to be a child. If you want to have an actual discussion, I am game.. but I have yet to see you ever manage to pull this off. I have long made a habit of not reading anything you post and from the 3 lines of your reply that I actually read, I can see that rule is well founded.

    As for my personal experience, I ran a DBB Arbiter for a long time.. it was my 'go to'ship for Damage Output for quite a while and I really enjoyed playing it. Dual Beam Banks are still fine.. they still work, they're not trash.. no one is saying that. WIth the buffs given to cannons recently however, Cannons have surpased them by a large margin.. this is not my opinion it's a mathematical and quantifiable fact. Because of this, I swapped my DBB loadout for Dual Cannons and enjoyed a massive damage boost as will most people.

    If you prefer to run DBB's, there is nothing wrong with that.. play what you like and have fun. If you find it's difficult or that the damage isn't what you wish it would be.. try swapping them for cannons. Anyone that wants to discuss it in an adult and civil fashion, I am game.
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  • coldnapalmcoldnapalm Member Posts: 8,189 Arc User
    However, he is completely correct in saying that cannons have immensely higher DPS potential than beams and you have to be incredibly klutz with your piloting if beams indeed perform better for you. The DPS penalty from FAW cripples beam dmg output heavily, meanwhile CSV offers a dmg boost instead (at least on CSV2/3, and you should really use the highest enhancement possible). On a ship with Cmdr Tactical, FAW3+APB3 won't even come close to the combination of CSV3+APB1 (or 2, if 2 Lt. Cmdr tac seats are open as you also preferably want KLW3).

    Out of curiosity...how are you getting FAW3+APB3 or APB1+CSV3 on an arbiter? You are looking at a straight up FAW3 vs CSV2 comparison. FAW3 loses 30 accuracy while CSV2 loses 40. So doing a beam boat in the case of the arbiter with FAW3 vs CSV2 isn't that bad of an idea unless you have a lot of acc. Although to be fair, I would probably load up on BO3 over FAW3 at this point...and BO3 vs CRF2...you shot 50 more shots with CRF, but BO3 gives you 50% more damage per shot so that is wash. Each shot does 10% more damage with CRF2 but BO does that massive alpha strike and has an additional 50% crtD. Which is why I like BO3 better. But honestly, there is a LOT of other variables that makes it so once choice or the other can end up better...like what are you doing with that LTC uni. Do you have global cooldown mechanics. What looks cooler. Important things like that.
  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 8,792 Arc User
    dual cannons front, turrets rear
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    However, he is completely correct in saying that cannons have immensely higher DPS potential than beams and you have to be incredibly klutz with your piloting if beams indeed perform better for you. The DPS penalty from FAW cripples beam dmg output heavily, meanwhile CSV offers a dmg boost instead (at least on CSV2/3, and you should really use the highest enhancement possible). On a ship with Cmdr Tactical, FAW3+APB3 won't even come close to the combination of CSV3+APB1 (or 2, if 2 Lt. Cmdr tac seats are open as you also preferably want KLW3).

    Out of curiosity...how are you getting FAW3+APB3 or APB1+CSV3 on an arbiter? You are looking at a straight up FAW3 vs CSV2 comparison. FAW3 loses 30 accuracy while CSV2 loses 40. So doing a beam boat in the case of the arbiter with FAW3 vs CSV2 isn't that bad of an idea unless you have a lot of acc. Although to be fair, I would probably load up on BO3 over FAW3 at this point...and BO3 vs CRF2...you shot 50 more shots with CRF, but BO3 gives you 50% more damage per shot so that is wash. Each shot does 10% more damage with CRF2 but BO does that massive alpha strike and has an additional 50% crtD. Which is why I like BO3 better. But honestly, there is a LOT of other variables that makes it so once choice or the other can end up better...like what are you doing with that LTC uni. Do you have global cooldown mechanics. What looks cooler. Important things like that.

    Good points, and yes.. the Arbiter can only take Scatter Volley 2 which is a common downside unfortunately. On mine, I run Scatter Volley 2, APB1 and I use the Hostile Acquisition console to make up for the loss of accuracy. The Vengeance suffers the same drawback which is the primary reason why none of the fed ships have ever really truly caught up to the mighty Scimitar. :wink:
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  • tunebreakertunebreaker Member Posts: 1,222 Arc User
    edited January 2019
    dual cannons front, turrets rear
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    However, he is completely correct in saying that cannons have immensely higher DPS potential than beams and you have to be incredibly klutz with your piloting if beams indeed perform better for you. The DPS penalty from FAW cripples beam dmg output heavily, meanwhile CSV offers a dmg boost instead (at least on CSV2/3, and you should really use the highest enhancement possible). On a ship with Cmdr Tactical, FAW3+APB3 won't even come close to the combination of CSV3+APB1 (or 2, if 2 Lt. Cmdr tac seats are open as you also preferably want KLW3).

    Out of curiosity...how are you getting FAW3+APB3 or APB1+CSV3 on an arbiter? You are looking at a straight up FAW3 vs CSV2 comparison. FAW3 loses 30 accuracy while CSV2 loses 40. So doing a beam boat in the case of the arbiter with FAW3 vs CSV2 isn't that bad of an idea unless you have a lot of acc. Although to be fair, I would probably load up on BO3 over FAW3 at this point...and BO3 vs CRF2...you shot 50 more shots with CRF, but BO3 gives you 50% more damage per shot so that is wash. Each shot does 10% more damage with CRF2 but BO does that massive alpha strike and has an additional 50% crtD. Which is why I like BO3 better. But honestly, there is a LOT of other variables that makes it so once choice or the other can end up better...like what are you doing with that LTC uni. Do you have global cooldown mechanics. What looks cooler. Important things like that.

    I never said that particular comparison was about Arbiter. Note how I wrote "On a ship with Cmdr Tactical", because Patrick earlier said "what this means, is that you can run the maximum BFAW plus the top attack pattern on an escort build".

    However, even when comparing Arbiter's case, CSV2 to FAW3, former will be a lot stronger option.
    patrickngo wrote: »

    What's the highest DPS someone has gotten...Running an Avenger or Arbiter? in the DPS leagues, I mean. we know about the 300K and the 200K and so on, but what's the best performance @Tunebreaker or @Sea of Sorrows has seen (or posted) using an Avenger or an Arbiter?

    I don't know the exact high scores, but there are quite a people who have done 200k+ with Arbiters.
  • coldnapalmcoldnapalm Member Posts: 8,189 Arc User
    120k arbiters are something you see often enough. 150k is not unheard of. A bit below 180k is the highest I have seen. These are all pretty much cannon boats.
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