You know that’s not 100% correct as we can no longer play all missions just fine. The current system reduced support to play all missions and needs tweaking to make all missions playable again. The new system killed off playing around 1/3 of the missions. From that point of view it’s been a disaster. There is room for lots of improvement.
The missions I used to play before this system came out are no longer playable due to bad design changes in the system.
Translation: "the people who used to grind Elites for marks and dil no longer do"
You know that’s not 100% correct as we can no longer play all missions just fine. The current system reduced support to play all missions and needs tweaking to make all missions playable again. The new system killed off playing around 1/3 of the missions. From that point of view it’s been a disaster. There is room for lots of improvement.
The missions I used to play before this system came out are no longer playable due to bad design changes in the system.
Translation: "the people who used to grind Elites for marks and dil no longer do"
That is an incomplete translation. While that is a tiny part of the problem the main problem is the bad design of RTFO made it so those that are still wanting to play and have not moved on are unable to play with each other, unable to team up and unable to get the mission to start.
Like many others I didn’t stop running Elites due to the change in marks and dill. I stopped because the bad RTFO UI design made it impossible to team up with likeminded people who wanted to play the same missions. So RTFO made is so around 1/3 of the missions are now unplayable even if a bunch of people want to play them.
The devs need to take another look at RTFO and make changes to undo the harm they have done. It wouldn't impact the positive side to RTFO.
I guess I'm not understanding you, @pottsey5g . Are you saying that you cannot team with a group and then queue up for a mission together at all? Or are you trying to queue up solo and it's just not popping for you?
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I guess I'm not understanding you, @pottsey5g . Are you saying that you cannot team with a group and then queue up for a mission together at all? Or are you trying to queue up solo and it's just not popping for you?
coldnapalm post covers my feelings. Before the change I could and in fact did queue up solo every single day, get a pop and have no problem. Now after the change I have given up doing daily queues as it’s next to impossible to get the ones I play to work due to the terrible design change in UI.
I don’t see why the devs cannot undo the UI change but keep all the positives sides to RTFO. That way everyone wins. RTFO killed queue running for me and others. It’s not RTFO itself; it’s the removal of the UI numbers which happened along side RTFO. It was an important mechanic that helped us form groups. Without it I cannot get groups anymore in the missions I used to play which were mostly Elites and 10+ people. Plus the removal of the UI numbers has killed spur of the moment that looks fun lets join moments. The UI numbers had a positive impact causing queues to start faster and as I feared and warned about removing the numbers has had a massive negative impact on getting those queues to start.
People like me are no longer able to go that looks fun lets join in. Which in turn means the queues are just not starting. Or to put it another way there could be as little as 5 people playing Elite in the old system and we could without much trouble see each other, team up and start a queue. Now after the change we are unable to see each other and so cannot team up so the queue doesn't start.
“They don't need to do anything of the sort. Nothing is unplayable. This is yet more pverblown dramatics and utter horseshit.” .
It’s not dramatics [expletive deleted -- WingedHussar] it’s a real problem that that has had a massive negative impact on a group of players. Just because the problem doesn’t affect you it does not mean it’s not real and does not affect others from being able to play those daily missions. Why is it so hard for you to accept this? Before the change I was running daily missions of my choice from the queue system, now it’s such a nightmare to get those same missions working that after months of trying I have abandoned my daily attempt at running queues and daily login.
I acknowledge we are one of the smaller groups of players playing Elite but we are still a valid group and the change has massively impacted us in a negative way. Missions that used to be playable are now unplayable for me and that is a fact. I used to run 1 queue before work every day. Now because of the UI change I cannot do that.
Ah! So, it's not really the RTFO system, but a change in the UI displayed information. So, what stops you from going into chat to organize a team to run what you want? Seems to me that if there are like-minded individuals out there, that you'd be able to find them to continue running those same queues. If that community is that small, don't you know who they are, so that you can contact them, organize, and continue with your runs?
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Ah! So, it's not really the RTFO system, but a change in the UI displayed information. So, what stops you from going into chat to organize a team to run what you want? Seems to me that if there are like-minded individuals out there, that you'd be able to find them to continue running those same queues. If that community is that small, don't you know who they are, so that you can contact them, organize, and continue with your runs?
The same thing that's stopping them from joining queues without seeing a "4" in the waiting column. They all want to be the 5th member of a team, which will obviously never happen unless someone else organizes the first 4.
I would expect even if the waiting numbers were still shown the Elites would mostly be at zero anyway, simply because Random Advanced always rewards better. A community of waiting-to-snipe-the-fifth-spot, no matter the size, can't do anything without others to ride on.
Ah! So, it's not really the RTFO system, but a change in the UI displayed information. So, what stops you from going into chat to organize a team to run what you want? Seems to me that if there are like-minded individuals out there, that you'd be able to find them to continue running those same queues. If that community is that small, don't you know who they are, so that you can contact them, organize, and continue with your runs?
The majority of players are not in any single chat channel and I have no idea who they are or how to contact them. I used to play with different people each day via the queue system most of which are not in any of the main chat channels. But that is no longer possible due to the UI change. Hence why I dislike the new system and it has stopping me running daily queues of my choice and I am not the only one. The only way we had of seeing each other and teaming up was that UI number. If someone new goes to Elite how do I find out about them now? How does that new person see my queue and join me? It just does not work anymore.
The same thing that's stopping them from joining queues without seeing a "4" in the waiting column. They all want to be the 5th member of a team, which will obviously never happen unless someone else organizes the first 4.
I would expect even if the waiting numbers were still shown the Elites would mostly be at zero anyway, simply because Random Advanced always rewards better. A community of waiting-to-snipe-the-fifth-spot, no matter the size, can't do anything without others to ride on.
That’s not true we didn’t all want to be the 5th member of the team. The UI number benefits the 1st person to join and wait and benefited the 5th person to join via the UI number. The system we have now is just worse in every single regard for Elite. It’s done nothing but reduce the amount of queues being played at Elite level. Putting the UI back is a win/win as everyone benefits and no one loses out.
We run Elites for the teamwork, challenge and for pushing new builds to that extra level of refinement. It’s not all about the reward. It is for some but for people, but for people like me we don’t play Elite for the dill/mark reward. I already max out dill within minutes of logging into the game before running any queues. As far as I am concerned marks and dill are near worthless, I have more unrefined dill and more marks then I know what to do with. What I am interested in is joining like minded players in Elite missions which is no longer possible due to the poor design choice in the UI. The UI change has done nothing positive, only a negative impact. So why can it not be undone?
Ah! So, it's not really the RTFO system, but a change in the UI displayed information. So, what stops you from going into chat to organize a team to run what you want? Seems to me that if there are like-minded individuals out there, that you'd be able to find them to continue running those same queues. If that community is that small, don't you know who they are, so that you can contact them, organize, and continue with your runs?
The majority of players are not in any single chat channel and I have no idea who they are or how to contact them. I used to play with different people each day via the queue system most of which are not in any of the main chat channels. But that is no longer possible due to the UI change. Hence why I dislike the new system and it has stopping me running daily queues of my choice and I am not the only one. The only way we had of seeing each other and teaming up was that UI number. If someone new goes to Elite how do I find out about them now? How does that new person see my queue and join me? It just does not work anymore.
The same thing that's stopping them from joining queues without seeing a "4" in the waiting column. They all want to be the 5th member of a team, which will obviously never happen unless someone else organizes the first 4.
I would expect even if the waiting numbers were still shown the Elites would mostly be at zero anyway, simply because Random Advanced always rewards better. A community of waiting-to-snipe-the-fifth-spot, no matter the size, can't do anything without others to ride on.
That’s not true we didn’t all want to be the 5th member of the team. The UI number benefits the 1st person to join and wait and benefited the 5th person to join via the UI number. The system we have now is just worse in every single regard for Elite. It’s done nothing but reduce the amount of queues being played at Elite level. Putting the UI back is a win/win as everyone benefits and no one loses out.
We run Elites for the teamwork, challenge and for pushing new builds to that extra level of refinement. It’s not all about the reward. It is for some but for people, but for people like me we don’t play Elite for the dill/mark reward. I already max out dill within minutes of logging into the game before running any queues. As far as I am concerned marks and dill are near worthless, I have more unrefined dill and more marks then I know what to do with. What I am interested in is joining like minded players in Elite missions which is no longer possible due to the poor design choice in the UI. The UI change has done nothing positive, only a negative impact. So why can it not be undone?
Who is "we?" You just admitted you don't know anyone else. That makes me inclined to believe it's just you fighting windmills here.
Im sorry Pottsey5g, Im seeing the UI change as a positive.
Due to the way time - reward calculations a lot of players have done, they kept spamming ISA, CCA and the red alerts. It didn't matter if a queue was well designed, fun and engaging, if in their words it was "time gated" or didn't reward 400 marks for 15 minute work because you could do ISA in 3 mins for 100 marks. You could see this in the UI of how many players queued for queues.
Removing the players queue number, is a good thing. It stops any potential system of negative reinforcement for normal & advance queues. Where if somebody sees "0" in the queue number, they don.t feel like being the first to queue. Elites, i believe were never really meant to be "pugged", and actually should have players who already communicate with one another. As with those queues, without communication, you could be in deep trouble.
Also, complaining that players aren't in a single chat channel, your seriously using that excuse? The start a information campaign, get out there in these forums and reddit and starting getting an information package together. Direct players to these channels, and also say you are looking for more captains for elite queues. Start building your base, and explain the players who will start talking, who will then talk to others, and so on and so forth.
I am an elite player, last few months I haven't queue for as many as usual, but thats not because of the TFO system. I love the challenge of elites too. But, also as an elite, I need to take into account the greater playerbase, and what benefits them, and not just myself.
The new system, has allowed me to play queues I haven't for ages. Additionally, it is a surprise factor, I never know what queue I am going to get dropped into and that excites me.
It is possible to get elites going, its not impossible because of the UI change. You just need to put in a little work. When it comes right down to it, these words from Spock, hold very true.
"The Needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few"
You're right, other than Philip Gray there is a lack of diversity in TFO Mission givers.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Heh, I just did n RTFO for the advanced version of Vorn Ground. Hehe, that was "fun"... I spent most of the mission using the Tsunkatse gloves to punch Borg. Also I verified that Borg do NOT adapt to psionic attacks. Yeah I was spamming the winter kit modules.
As someone leveling a new character, I can say that this is a great improvement. In the past, if no one else was leveling a new character, you had to try to get a group together to do the queues that only lower level players are able to try out. And that is a pain some times, if not that many people from your fleet are online.
But if it did take all players that picked random, and put all of them in the same instance together, then it would defeat the purpose of the system. I like this feature.
Razar.
Leader of Elite Guardian Academy.Would you like to learn how to run a fleet? Would you like to know how to do ship builds (true budget as well as high end)?The join the Academy today!
“Who is "we?" You just admitted you don't know anyone else. That makes me inclined to believe it's just you fighting windmills here.”
What I said was I do not know their names or how to contact them. I talked to people who randomly joined and talked in group chat. The last thread like this where you and me was in, other people said the same thing as I have said. Just because I don’t have them in my friend list and don’t know their names, it does not mean they are not real. You even talked to some yourself.
It’s not me who is fighting windmills. You appear to have tunnel version and refuse to acknowledge the problems this is causing. Just like you appear to have blanked out all the other people who have said the same thing to you.
What you said is wrong about all queues now playing fine. Many missions are now much harder to play when they used to be easy. The new system has removed positive ability’s that players used to start queues.
“Also, complaining that players aren't in a single chat channel, your seriously using that excuse? The start a information campaign, get out there in these forums and reddit and starting getting an information package together. Direct players to these channels, and also say you are looking for more captains for elite queues. Start building your base, and explain the players who will start talking, who will then talk to others, and so on and so forth.”
I play a game to have fun and in a limited amount of time before work. Not to put in countless hours doing a information war campaign in and out of game. All because of a UI change the devs could undo without any negative impact on the game. Plus when other people have tried that idea it’s hardly been a success. I have been a member of STFElite for years but never managed to get any queues running as there are never enough active people. Hence why I used to queue via the system before the UI system ruined it.
I am not convinced that negative reinforcement was a real thing. But what was real and we witnessed it in action was the positive reinforcement that caused missions to trigger from the UI number.
“Where if somebody sees "0" in the queue number, they don.t feel like being the first to queue.”
The type of people who wouldn’t join a queue because there was 0 in the number are unlikely to join the queue with the data removed. Likewise the data being removed has killed off “that looks fun, spur of the moment joining” which had a major positive impact on queues starting.
I used to be the first in queues and people used to join me. Likewise I used to spot people in queues go that looks fun and join them. That was a double positive for them and me. Removing the UI has destroyed all that positive effect on queues and made it far harder to start queues.
“The new system, has allowed me to play queues I haven't for ages. Additionally, it is a surprise factor, I never know what queue I am going to get dropped into and that excites me.”
Yes I acknowledge that the new system has allowed some queues to become played able. But why is it so hard for you to acknowledge that the new system has caused a large amount of queues to become unplayable? If they put the UI numbers back in those missions that became playable will stay playable from RTFO and those missions that turned unplayable will go back to being playable. Everyone wins. We all end up better off. I am not saying get rid of RTFO only make a tiny tweak which will have a positive impact.
“The Needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few”
Accept for in this case both the needs of the many and the needs of the few can both be made happy with one small change. All the change did is have zero impact on the needs of the many while punishing the needs of the few for no good reason.
If they put the UI numbers back in those missions that became playable will stay playable from RTFO and those missions that turned unplayable will go back to being playable.
You wish. In reality, since most players never needed waiting numbers and a significant amount of players were in fact deterred by them, that outcome doesn't seem plausible.
If Elites never pop in pug now, it's because people simply don't want to play them in pugs anymore (I don't know, I don't want to play them anymore so I haven't tried). If you do still want to play them, you can go find (or create) an active channel with people who want to run them in private instead. And if there aren't anyone intersted in private either, then that must mean people don't want to play them at all, period.
Well, @pottsey5g , since you mentioned seeing other people in this forum making similar complaints as yourself, I would suggest PMing them via the forum, getting their in-game handles, and forming a team to run the queues that you and they want to do. Together you might also be able to start an in-game chat channel, and advertise it here in the forum, for others who may also want to run those queues. You and they are not without options for continuing to do the things that you want to do. You cannot blame the changes in the UI or the implementation of RTFOs for your own inaction, though. Good luck.
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Hehe, there's already an Elite STF channel isn't there?
Well, that problem's solved then. No need to organize a channel, just join it.
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“Who is "we?" You just admitted you don't know anyone else. That makes me inclined to believe it's just you fighting windmills here.”
What I said was I do not know their names or how to contact them. I talked to people who randomly joined and talked in group chat. The last thread like this where you and me was in, other people said the same thing as I have said. Just because I don’t have them in my friend list and don’t know their names, it does not mean they are not real. You even talked to some yourself.
It’s not me who is fighting windmills. You appear to have tunnel version and refuse to acknowledge the problems this is causing. Just like you appear to have blanked out all the other people who have said the same thing to you.
What you said is wrong about all queues now playing fine. Many missions are now much harder to play when they used to be easy. The new system has removed positive ability’s that players used to start queues.
“Also, complaining that players aren't in a single chat channel, your seriously using that excuse? The start a information campaign, get out there in these forums and reddit and starting getting an information package together. Direct players to these channels, and also say you are looking for more captains for elite queues. Start building your base, and explain the players who will start talking, who will then talk to others, and so on and so forth.”
I play a game to have fun and in a limited amount of time before work. Not to put in countless hours doing a information war campaign in and out of game. All because of a UI change the devs could undo without any negative impact on the game. Plus when other people have tried that idea it’s hardly been a success. I have been a member of STFElite for years but never managed to get any queues running as there are never enough active people. Hence why I used to queue via the system before the UI system ruined it.
I am not convinced that negative reinforcement was a real thing. But what was real and we witnessed it in action was the positive reinforcement that caused missions to trigger from the UI number.
“Where if somebody sees "0" in the queue number, they don.t feel like being the first to queue.”
The type of people who wouldn’t join a queue because there was 0 in the number are unlikely to join the queue with the data removed. Likewise the data being removed has killed off “that looks fun, spur of the moment joining” which had a major positive impact on queues starting.
I used to be the first in queues and people used to join me. Likewise I used to spot people in queues go that looks fun and join them. That was a double positive for them and me. Removing the UI has destroyed all that positive effect on queues and made it far harder to start queues.
“The new system, has allowed me to play queues I haven't for ages. Additionally, it is a surprise factor, I never know what queue I am going to get dropped into and that excites me.”
Yes I acknowledge that the new system has allowed some queues to become played able. But why is it so hard for you to acknowledge that the new system has caused a large amount of queues to become unplayable? If they put the UI numbers back in those missions that became playable will stay playable from RTFO and those missions that turned unplayable will go back to being playable. Everyone wins. We all end up better off. I am not saying get rid of RTFO only make a tiny tweak which will have a positive impact.
“The Needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few”
Accept for in this case both the needs of the many and the needs of the few can both be made happy with one small change. All the change did is have zero impact on the needs of the many while punishing the needs of the few for no good reason.
Stop me if i'm wrong or better yet just disregard my post as i don't feel like having a argument over a post but.
It appears you are ranting about the outcome of a system that is not anything that would stop you from anything.
It has been said form a group get a channel network a little and play. This is a mmo and by most outlooks on them require player interaction with each other at some point. You are refusing to put a little work in to locating like minded players. But it is YOU that has the problem not wanting to put in the work not the system ui.
Join a chat channel for elite stfs, Join a fleet that runs the missions on elite as a regular action, Network in zone chat form friends list with like minded players and call up a few buddies to play them. The options are all there but you must make use of them and if you are unwilling to then no one can help you.
Why i understand the appeal of meta builds, Pushing the limits of a build as well as Mini Maxing. It is possible that you need to put that build aside and make one that can run all content at advanced and learn a new build.
And why you are at it be sociable, network, make friends, discover a new fleet, then go back to elite once you have some contacts to draw from. Be proactive and offer help with other players builds to bring them in to elite missions. Offer reasonable upgrades that are in range with the players resources that they can do so that they can earn there way in to elite missions gaining more resources over time. Offering a solution that is financial unreachable for a person is not the best help something to keep in mind why helping.
I can't speak for others here but in my experience i have found that elite players tend to be hard to interact with. Most chat revolves around what some dumb other player did wrong why x failed, or telling other players how great there build is and going on and on about why other players builds are not and either need work or are failures compared to the current approved build's.
Not saying your interactions are like this i don't have any experience interacting with you directly in game. But given the interactions i have had in elite groups i can understand why not many people are entering the q just to experience a put down or failure. When they can q up a advanced and just pug it if need be.
Not one thing in this game is perfect by any means i my self have a serious issue with the overall lack of teamwork in game and that it's mechanical nature is kill everything why on occasion pressing the f button. So i do understand having issues with the game but your issues are not only do to the game it is mostly you refusing to even work to gather contacts and friends for the elite q and are only about how you should not need to interact with any one other than a number beside your content you want to play.
@valoreah Starbase One does not have a cooldown lock out, so it will tend to pop more frequently since the system doesn't prevent you from being put immediately back into it. I believe Swarm is the same way being that it's the most recent Reputation's queue. You would be randomly put into it more often, if the players who are choosing are choosing it more frequently.
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Ah! So, it's not really the RTFO system, but a change in the UI displayed information. So, what stops you from going into chat to organize a team to run what you want? Seems to me that if there are like-minded individuals out there, that you'd be able to find them to continue running those same queues. If that community is that small, don't you know who they are, so that you can contact them, organize, and continue with your runs?
The majority of players are not in any single chat channel and I have no idea who they are or how to contact them. I used to play with different people each day via the queue system most of which are not in any of the main chat channels. But that is no longer possible due to the UI change. Hence why I dislike the new system and it has stopping me running daily queues of my choice and I am not the only one. The only way we had of seeing each other and teaming up was that UI number. If someone new goes to Elite how do I find out about them now? How does that new person see my queue and join me? It just does not work anymore.
The same thing that's stopping them from joining queues without seeing a "4" in the waiting column. They all want to be the 5th member of a team, which will obviously never happen unless someone else organizes the first 4.
I would expect even if the waiting numbers were still shown the Elites would mostly be at zero anyway, simply because Random Advanced always rewards better. A community of waiting-to-snipe-the-fifth-spot, no matter the size, can't do anything without others to ride on.
That’s not true we didn’t all want to be the 5th member of the team. The UI number benefits the 1st person to join and wait and benefited the 5th person to join via the UI number. The system we have now is just worse in every single regard for Elite. It’s done nothing but reduce the amount of queues being played at Elite level. Putting the UI back is a win/win as everyone benefits and no one loses out.
We run Elites for the teamwork, challenge and for pushing new builds to that extra level of refinement. It’s not all about the reward. It is for some but for people, but for people like me we don’t play Elite for the dill/mark reward. I already max out dill within minutes of logging into the game before running any queues. As far as I am concerned marks and dill are near worthless, I have more unrefined dill and more marks then I know what to do with. What I am interested in is joining like minded players in Elite missions which is no longer possible due to the poor design choice in the UI. The UI change has done nothing positive, only a negative impact. So why can it not be undone?
Who is "we?" You just admitted you don't know anyone else. That makes me inclined to believe it's just you fighting windmills here.
To be fair, I also agreed with @pottsey5g ; I never cared whether I was the fifth player or the first one in, for example, Infected Ground. Or any other mission that could take long to queue. I just queued, but previously it was at least possible to get an idea of how much longer things were going to take.
That is no longer possible and I don't see the benefit of removing that bit of information either. Indeed, I am even less inclined to join for certain queues now - and since they don't pop up in the RTFO's if no one queues for them apparently, it does have a negative effect on the playability of certain queues.
That has little to do with wanting to be the fifth player or something like that. It has more to do with
- a system not doing the things it was advertised to do (that may be my mistake as pointed out by some)
- a change that caused players to have less information about which queues have a chance of getting played, meaning that said system is now the more viable alternative and yes, @pottsey5g is right in that it negatively affects what we had. Because you can't stimulate one thing without negatively affecting the other one the way it is currently designed (ie, the RTFO's not being totally random, while being mutually exclusive with the regular queueing system).
The whole idea seems pretty silly now anyway, or at least less perfect than it could have been. Basically they're giving out more rewards, but only for content that was going to be played anyway. While I obviously don't mind receiving more rewards, wasn't the general concensus on here that other missions needed a better effort-reward ratio to make them more attractive compared to a very small selection of missions before we had this change?
If so, then this change is at the very least a missed opportunity in the sense of realising that.
In general, with regard to the topic of channels: They may be an option for some people, not for others (doesn't really work on consoles for example). Either way, it has little to do with the queues imo so I don't see their relevance when it comes to the randomness (or lack thereof) of the random task force thingies.
Formerly known as Risian4. Risian6 is my new PS4-account. Fleetcaptain5 is my main PC account. I hope to actively play again on PC in a few months.
Now that that's made clear... on to the next issue: when are playable Voth coming, and where's are my T7 Vesta and C-store purchasable real life shuttle?
The problem then may not so much be that they did not release the RTFO's the way they could have done it (that is, with true randomness thus giving out higher rewards for content that would not necessarily be played anyway, leading to better effort-reward ratio's for neglected content).
Rather, it is that use of the system is being encouraged by discouraging regular queueing. And that would not necessarily be a problem either, but in my opinion it is because of the problem outlined above: the system promotes only the playing of content that would be played anyway.
It is, I think, these two elements combined that then form the core of the problem / why the system is not as good as it could have been.
Formerly known as Risian4. Risian6 is my new PS4-account. Fleetcaptain5 is my main PC account. I hope to actively play again on PC in a few months.
Now that that's made clear... on to the next issue: when are playable Voth coming, and where's are my T7 Vesta and C-store purchasable real life shuttle?
As someone leveling a new character, I can say that this is a great improvement. In the past, if no one else was leveling a new character, you had to try to get a group together to do the queues that only lower level players are able to try out. And that is a pain some times, if not that many people from your fleet are online.
But if it did take all players that picked random, and put all of them in the same instance together, then it would defeat the purpose of the system. I like this feature.
Razar.
I agree with this. For levelling the change is a good one indeed.
Then again, this may have simply to do with the system being opened up for lower levels. Many of the players I have seen in Romulan Minefield were actually lower level players.
So I'm not entirely sure whether the increased playability of certain queues at lower levels, is due to the installment of RTFO's.
Formerly known as Risian4. Risian6 is my new PS4-account. Fleetcaptain5 is my main PC account. I hope to actively play again on PC in a few months.
Now that that's made clear... on to the next issue: when are playable Voth coming, and where's are my T7 Vesta and C-store purchasable real life shuttle?
“Well, that problem's solved then. No need to organize a channel, just join it.
I already explained why that is not working, it is not problem solved. The amount of people who use those channels are a tiny fraction of the people who used the old UI system. It’s not flat out impossible to get into Elite queues and it’s not my inaction as whatever action I take the options available now are massively inferior and less effective then against the old system. I can blame the change in the UI as that is precisely what has ruined running queues and caused all the problems.
The old UI worked really well without a problem. The new UI system is massively inferior. Why can they not roll back the old good UI and keep RTFO everyone benefits from that.
“It has been said form a group get a channel network a little and play. This is a mmo and by most outlooks on them require player interaction with each other at some point. You are refusing to put a little work in to locating like minded players. But it is YOU that has the problem not wanting to put in the work not the system ui.”
That is not true I have put in the work and it’s not working anywhere near as effective as the old UI system. I have tried now for months and none of the solutions suggested are effective or working on a daily basics. The problem is not me, the problem in the poor change in the UI. We can only work with what we have and what we have now is inferior compared to the old UI.
“Why i understand the appeal of meta builds, Pushing the limits of a build as well as Mini Maxing. It is possible that you need to put that build aside and make one that can run all content at advanced and learn a new build.”
My build can run all advance, the problem is advance if completely boring and unrewarding for me. I have learnt new builds right now I am running a mine layer but there is no point taking it into advance as that just feels like a waste of time. I agree with what you say about some Elite players but I am not like that. Part of the problem is my prime playtime is when the server population is at the lowest point. The premade chat channels, fleets and social channels are all next to dead at this point. The only way I could find and contact enough players was via the old UI system. Once that was removed I have not found a suitable solution. Things might be different if you play at peak time but in my time zone the UI numbers where essential to get queues to start.
The problem is not me it’s the change in the UI which has made is massively harder to get into queues. I now have to put in 10x more work to get into the same queues as before the change and even after that extra work I am struggling to get into daily queues. Hence why the problem is the UI and its needs undoing.
“When's the last time you saw the Vorn ground STF get played?”
Every so often before the UI change, since the UI change never. Hence why I want them to keep RTFO but return the UI as that is the best of both worlds. We will benefit from that as we all gain the positive impact of RTFO and the positive impact from the UI numbers.
“. In reality, since most players never needed waiting numbers and a significant amount of players were in fact deterred by them, that outcome doesn't seem plausible.
If Elites never pop in pug now, it's because people simply don't want to play them in pugs anymore (I don't know, I don't want to play them anymore so I haven't tried). If you do still want to play them, you can go find (or create) an active channel with people who want to run them in private instead. And if there aren't anyone intersted in private either, then that must mean people don't want to play them at all, period.”
You have tunnel vision again, that is clearly not true and you should know that. It has been explained to you why this is not true, why do you keep ignoring the evidence and facts? The problem is not that people are not interested. The problem is the interested people cannot see each other and join each other like we could in the old system.
Chat channels only make up a tiny fraction of the population and when the server is at the lowest population point in the day are often not practical places to find groups.
Put it this way in the old system 5 interested people who have never met could find each other, join and start an Elite queue without a problem. In the new system those 5 people who have never met can no longer get an Elite queue to start. It’s not because people are not interested, its because the UI change has had a massive negative impact. None of the solutions suggested in this thread fix this problem.
Removing the UI numbers has deterred a group of people from running the queues. That is a fact. Bringing the UI numbers back will make that group play queues again.
A number of people have now told you the UI numbers had a positive impact to start queues and removing the UI numbers has had a negative impact. Why is it so hard for you to acknowledge that? Removing the UI numbers was clearly a mistake.
Comments
My character Tsin'xing
Like many others I didn’t stop running Elites due to the change in marks and dill. I stopped because the bad RTFO UI design made it impossible to team up with likeminded people who wanted to play the same missions. So RTFO made is so around 1/3 of the missions are now unplayable even if a bunch of people want to play them.
The devs need to take another look at RTFO and make changes to undo the harm they have done. It wouldn't impact the positive side to RTFO.
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I don’t see why the devs cannot undo the UI change but keep all the positives sides to RTFO. That way everyone wins. RTFO killed queue running for me and others. It’s not RTFO itself; it’s the removal of the UI numbers which happened along side RTFO. It was an important mechanic that helped us form groups. Without it I cannot get groups anymore in the missions I used to play which were mostly Elites and 10+ people. Plus the removal of the UI numbers has killed spur of the moment that looks fun lets join moments. The UI numbers had a positive impact causing queues to start faster and as I feared and warned about removing the numbers has had a massive negative impact on getting those queues to start.
People like me are no longer able to go that looks fun lets join in. Which in turn means the queues are just not starting. Or to put it another way there could be as little as 5 people playing Elite in the old system and we could without much trouble see each other, team up and start a queue. Now after the change we are unable to see each other and so cannot team up so the queue doesn't start.
It’s not dramatics [expletive deleted -- WingedHussar] it’s a real problem that that has had a massive negative impact on a group of players. Just because the problem doesn’t affect you it does not mean it’s not real and does not affect others from being able to play those daily missions. Why is it so hard for you to accept this? Before the change I was running daily missions of my choice from the queue system, now it’s such a nightmare to get those same missions working that after months of trying I have abandoned my daily attempt at running queues and daily login.
I acknowledge we are one of the smaller groups of players playing Elite but we are still a valid group and the change has massively impacted us in a negative way. Missions that used to be playable are now unplayable for me and that is a fact. I used to run 1 queue before work every day. Now because of the UI change I cannot do that.
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I would expect even if the waiting numbers were still shown the Elites would mostly be at zero anyway, simply because Random Advanced always rewards better. A community of waiting-to-snipe-the-fifth-spot, no matter the size, can't do anything without others to ride on.
That’s not true we didn’t all want to be the 5th member of the team. The UI number benefits the 1st person to join and wait and benefited the 5th person to join via the UI number. The system we have now is just worse in every single regard for Elite. It’s done nothing but reduce the amount of queues being played at Elite level. Putting the UI back is a win/win as everyone benefits and no one loses out.
We run Elites for the teamwork, challenge and for pushing new builds to that extra level of refinement. It’s not all about the reward. It is for some but for people, but for people like me we don’t play Elite for the dill/mark reward. I already max out dill within minutes of logging into the game before running any queues. As far as I am concerned marks and dill are near worthless, I have more unrefined dill and more marks then I know what to do with. What I am interested in is joining like minded players in Elite missions which is no longer possible due to the poor design choice in the UI. The UI change has done nothing positive, only a negative impact. So why can it not be undone?
Due to the way time - reward calculations a lot of players have done, they kept spamming ISA, CCA and the red alerts. It didn't matter if a queue was well designed, fun and engaging, if in their words it was "time gated" or didn't reward 400 marks for 15 minute work because you could do ISA in 3 mins for 100 marks. You could see this in the UI of how many players queued for queues.
Removing the players queue number, is a good thing. It stops any potential system of negative reinforcement for normal & advance queues. Where if somebody sees "0" in the queue number, they don.t feel like being the first to queue. Elites, i believe were never really meant to be "pugged", and actually should have players who already communicate with one another. As with those queues, without communication, you could be in deep trouble.
Also, complaining that players aren't in a single chat channel, your seriously using that excuse? The start a information campaign, get out there in these forums and reddit and starting getting an information package together. Direct players to these channels, and also say you are looking for more captains for elite queues. Start building your base, and explain the players who will start talking, who will then talk to others, and so on and so forth.
I am an elite player, last few months I haven't queue for as many as usual, but thats not because of the TFO system. I love the challenge of elites too. But, also as an elite, I need to take into account the greater playerbase, and what benefits them, and not just myself.
The new system, has allowed me to play queues I haven't for ages. Additionally, it is a surprise factor, I never know what queue I am going to get dropped into and that excites me.
It is possible to get elites going, its not impossible because of the UI change. You just need to put in a little work. When it comes right down to it, these words from Spock, hold very true.
"The Needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few"
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
My character Tsin'xing
But if it did take all players that picked random, and put all of them in the same instance together, then it would defeat the purpose of the system. I like this feature.
Razar.
It’s not me who is fighting windmills. You appear to have tunnel version and refuse to acknowledge the problems this is causing. Just like you appear to have blanked out all the other people who have said the same thing to you.
What you said is wrong about all queues now playing fine. Many missions are now much harder to play when they used to be easy. The new system has removed positive ability’s that players used to start queues.
I play a game to have fun and in a limited amount of time before work. Not to put in countless hours doing a information war campaign in and out of game. All because of a UI change the devs could undo without any negative impact on the game. Plus when other people have tried that idea it’s hardly been a success. I have been a member of STFElite for years but never managed to get any queues running as there are never enough active people. Hence why I used to queue via the system before the UI system ruined it.
I am not convinced that negative reinforcement was a real thing. But what was real and we witnessed it in action was the positive reinforcement that caused missions to trigger from the UI number.
“Where if somebody sees "0" in the queue number, they don.t feel like being the first to queue.”
The type of people who wouldn’t join a queue because there was 0 in the number are unlikely to join the queue with the data removed. Likewise the data being removed has killed off “that looks fun, spur of the moment joining” which had a major positive impact on queues starting.
I used to be the first in queues and people used to join me. Likewise I used to spot people in queues go that looks fun and join them. That was a double positive for them and me. Removing the UI has destroyed all that positive effect on queues and made it far harder to start queues.
Yes I acknowledge that the new system has allowed some queues to become played able. But why is it so hard for you to acknowledge that the new system has caused a large amount of queues to become unplayable? If they put the UI numbers back in those missions that became playable will stay playable from RTFO and those missions that turned unplayable will go back to being playable. Everyone wins. We all end up better off. I am not saying get rid of RTFO only make a tiny tweak which will have a positive impact.
Accept for in this case both the needs of the many and the needs of the few can both be made happy with one small change. All the change did is have zero impact on the needs of the many while punishing the needs of the few for no good reason.
My character Tsin'xing
You wish. In reality, since most players never needed waiting numbers and a significant amount of players were in fact deterred by them, that outcome doesn't seem plausible.
If Elites never pop in pug now, it's because people simply don't want to play them in pugs anymore (I don't know, I don't want to play them anymore so I haven't tried). If you do still want to play them, you can go find (or create) an active channel with people who want to run them in private instead. And if there aren't anyone intersted in private either, then that must mean people don't want to play them at all, period.
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My character Tsin'xing
Well, that problem's solved then. No need to organize a channel, just join it.
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Stop me if i'm wrong or better yet just disregard my post as i don't feel like having a argument over a post but.
It appears you are ranting about the outcome of a system that is not anything that would stop you from anything.
It has been said form a group get a channel network a little and play. This is a mmo and by most outlooks on them require player interaction with each other at some point. You are refusing to put a little work in to locating like minded players. But it is YOU that has the problem not wanting to put in the work not the system ui.
Join a chat channel for elite stfs, Join a fleet that runs the missions on elite as a regular action, Network in zone chat form friends list with like minded players and call up a few buddies to play them. The options are all there but you must make use of them and if you are unwilling to then no one can help you.
Why i understand the appeal of meta builds, Pushing the limits of a build as well as Mini Maxing. It is possible that you need to put that build aside and make one that can run all content at advanced and learn a new build.
And why you are at it be sociable, network, make friends, discover a new fleet, then go back to elite once you have some contacts to draw from. Be proactive and offer help with other players builds to bring them in to elite missions. Offer reasonable upgrades that are in range with the players resources that they can do so that they can earn there way in to elite missions gaining more resources over time. Offering a solution that is financial unreachable for a person is not the best help something to keep in mind why helping.
I can't speak for others here but in my experience i have found that elite players tend to be hard to interact with. Most chat revolves around what some dumb other player did wrong why x failed, or telling other players how great there build is and going on and on about why other players builds are not and either need work or are failures compared to the current approved build's.
Not saying your interactions are like this i don't have any experience interacting with you directly in game. But given the interactions i have had in elite groups i can understand why not many people are entering the q just to experience a put down or failure. When they can q up a advanced and just pug it if need be.
Not one thing in this game is perfect by any means i my self have a serious issue with the overall lack of teamwork in game and that it's mechanical nature is kill everything why on occasion pressing the f button. So i do understand having issues with the game but your issues are not only do to the game it is mostly you refusing to even work to gather contacts and friends for the elite q and are only about how you should not need to interact with any one other than a number beside your content you want to play.
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To be fair, I also agreed with @pottsey5g ; I never cared whether I was the fifth player or the first one in, for example, Infected Ground. Or any other mission that could take long to queue. I just queued, but previously it was at least possible to get an idea of how much longer things were going to take.
That is no longer possible and I don't see the benefit of removing that bit of information either. Indeed, I am even less inclined to join for certain queues now - and since they don't pop up in the RTFO's if no one queues for them apparently, it does have a negative effect on the playability of certain queues.
That has little to do with wanting to be the fifth player or something like that. It has more to do with
- a system not doing the things it was advertised to do (that may be my mistake as pointed out by some)
- a change that caused players to have less information about which queues have a chance of getting played, meaning that said system is now the more viable alternative and yes, @pottsey5g is right in that it negatively affects what we had. Because you can't stimulate one thing without negatively affecting the other one the way it is currently designed (ie, the RTFO's not being totally random, while being mutually exclusive with the regular queueing system).
The whole idea seems pretty silly now anyway, or at least less perfect than it could have been. Basically they're giving out more rewards, but only for content that was going to be played anyway. While I obviously don't mind receiving more rewards, wasn't the general concensus on here that other missions needed a better effort-reward ratio to make them more attractive compared to a very small selection of missions before we had this change?
If so, then this change is at the very least a missed opportunity in the sense of realising that.
In general, with regard to the topic of channels: They may be an option for some people, not for others (doesn't really work on consoles for example). Either way, it has little to do with the queues imo so I don't see their relevance when it comes to the randomness (or lack thereof) of the random task force thingies.
Now that that's made clear... on to the next issue: when are playable Voth coming, and where's are my T7 Vesta and C-store purchasable real life shuttle?
The problem then may not so much be that they did not release the RTFO's the way they could have done it (that is, with true randomness thus giving out higher rewards for content that would not necessarily be played anyway, leading to better effort-reward ratio's for neglected content).
Rather, it is that use of the system is being encouraged by discouraging regular queueing. And that would not necessarily be a problem either, but in my opinion it is because of the problem outlined above: the system promotes only the playing of content that would be played anyway.
It is, I think, these two elements combined that then form the core of the problem / why the system is not as good as it could have been.
Now that that's made clear... on to the next issue: when are playable Voth coming, and where's are my T7 Vesta and C-store purchasable real life shuttle?
I agree with this. For levelling the change is a good one indeed.
Then again, this may have simply to do with the system being opened up for lower levels. Many of the players I have seen in Romulan Minefield were actually lower level players.
So I'm not entirely sure whether the increased playability of certain queues at lower levels, is due to the installment of RTFO's.
Now that that's made clear... on to the next issue: when are playable Voth coming, and where's are my T7 Vesta and C-store purchasable real life shuttle?
The old UI worked really well without a problem. The new UI system is massively inferior. Why can they not roll back the old good UI and keep RTFO everyone benefits from that.
That is not true I have put in the work and it’s not working anywhere near as effective as the old UI system. I have tried now for months and none of the solutions suggested are effective or working on a daily basics. The problem is not me, the problem in the poor change in the UI. We can only work with what we have and what we have now is inferior compared to the old UI. My build can run all advance, the problem is advance if completely boring and unrewarding for me. I have learnt new builds right now I am running a mine layer but there is no point taking it into advance as that just feels like a waste of time. I agree with what you say about some Elite players but I am not like that. Part of the problem is my prime playtime is when the server population is at the lowest point. The premade chat channels, fleets and social channels are all next to dead at this point. The only way I could find and contact enough players was via the old UI system. Once that was removed I have not found a suitable solution. Things might be different if you play at peak time but in my time zone the UI numbers where essential to get queues to start.
The problem is not me it’s the change in the UI which has made is massively harder to get into queues. I now have to put in 10x more work to get into the same queues as before the change and even after that extra work I am struggling to get into daily queues. Hence why the problem is the UI and its needs undoing.
Every so often before the UI change, since the UI change never. Hence why I want them to keep RTFO but return the UI as that is the best of both worlds. We will benefit from that as we all gain the positive impact of RTFO and the positive impact from the UI numbers.
You have tunnel vision again, that is clearly not true and you should know that. It has been explained to you why this is not true, why do you keep ignoring the evidence and facts? The problem is not that people are not interested. The problem is the interested people cannot see each other and join each other like we could in the old system.
Chat channels only make up a tiny fraction of the population and when the server is at the lowest population point in the day are often not practical places to find groups.
Put it this way in the old system 5 interested people who have never met could find each other, join and start an Elite queue without a problem. In the new system those 5 people who have never met can no longer get an Elite queue to start. It’s not because people are not interested, its because the UI change has had a massive negative impact. None of the solutions suggested in this thread fix this problem.
Removing the UI numbers has deterred a group of people from running the queues. That is a fact. Bringing the UI numbers back will make that group play queues again.
A number of people have now told you the UI numbers had a positive impact to start queues and removing the UI numbers has had a negative impact. Why is it so hard for you to acknowledge that? Removing the UI numbers was clearly a mistake.
ISA is the most popular because it's fast and easy, just like it has always been (given CCA is not in RTFO because it's 10-man).