test content
What is the Arc Client?
Install Arc

KDF disinvestment tangent

245

Comments

  • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 9,220 Arc User
    patrickngo wrote: »
    warpangel wrote: »
    After the initial storylines are over, all the "factions" play exactly the same. Sure, some offer larger ship lists but that's generally only relevant for collecting Admiralty cards. Almost all faction ships made in recent years are more or less copypasted for everyone with minimal differences (cloaks, "can mount dual cannons," singularity cores, few points difference in some stat or another). The ones that aren't, still get their consoles and traits boxed up and made available for the other factions (for a fraction of the price of the ship).

    So yeah, if you like to collect huge list of Admiralty cards, Fed-Rom's the ticket. Otherwise, it's pretty much down to what kind of backstory you want your character to have and what kind of clothes you want your character to wear?

    And the simple fact is the answer to that for most players is Starfleet.

    the term you're looking for, is "Homogenized". Everyone, regardless of their supposed 'Faction' ends up being a Starfleet officer in all but name.

    There's a reason for this, of course. as I said, Cryptic doesn't have (and never had, and likely never will have) the resources to do anything else with the line. They seriously do NOT have the resources to develop the game in any other way-they don't have the manpower, money, time, or necessary permissions from CBS to build their own canon for aspects like the Klingon Empire, Romulans, or Dominion-they're neither inclined, nor allowed to develop those factions beyond "Starfleet's Sidekick" and whatever has been explicitly already done in the canon.

    Futher, as you've noted above; by choosing Starfleet/Federation (or more particularly Federation aligned Romulan) a player gets everything, gameplay-wise, that KDF players get (aside from a few low-level adventures as Starfleet's pawn in the empire and some long-not-updated costume options), while also retaining everything Federation players get, plus better stats over-all.

    there's literally no draw for anyone who wasn't already a Klingon Fan, nor is there gameplay variety to stimulate interest in the less populated F(r)actions. No draw in terms of story, game mechanics, or options/alterations to gameplay. Instead, there are very good reasons to stick with Starfleet's pet Romulan, including superior gameplay mechanics, the ability to really, really, really buff your admiralty stack for fast dilithium earning, and access to everything game-mechanics-wise that you would have from either of the 'main' factions, PLUS better options in doffing and larger fleets and player population.
    But why should there be? What's wrong with players being allowed to freely choose their "faction" based on who they're a fan of or what kind of story they want to play, without locking themselves in to some kind of permanent gameplay consequences in the process?

    "Homogenization" is good. It gives players the flexibility to combine the origin story they like with the gameplay they like. And stuff like the uneven ship lists are only a side-effect of said homogenization being incomplete. If they ever get to finish what they've started, everyone would have the same ship list, too. All the ships.
  • lordmerc22lordmerc22 Member Posts: 309 Arc User
    Yes KDF is neglected, not more than Romulans right now(when did they last get a romulan ship? - fly the ship of your allies probably meant no more new Rom ships) and while Dominion chars are new they wont be getting anything while discovery runs it seems.

    5 of my 6 toons are KDF and it is fun - I dont feel the need to make any Fed/Disco toon but there are things that are plainly bad. Ships are more rare on this side, TOS characters were only Fed while it would be a great theme to have both old Klingon and Romulan options, Disco is Fed only - they could had made a part where you play the story as a klingon taking part in this war. Also on the mission you travel to the future where most races meet to sign a treaty for time travel, you meet romulans, fed and every minor race - you dont meet a klingon represantive but you instead find a klingon that represents the federation. Aka the story they tell there is that KDF doesnt exist in the future and is absorbed by the Federation. That to me is even worse than the lack of some ships - because we just play Federation storyline.

    Still KDF is fun and I like their ships better than the Fed ones, and unlike the popular belief in the forums there are still active armadas too but dont expect most people to check forums - they could grow better with right attention - starting from a less unified storyline. Obviously making things for more sides takes more time, but rushing content is never good. Discovery brought so many bugs into the game because it was so much rushed after ViL. I would rather them take their time and delivered more complete updates and bigger more enticing and multi facet(depending on side) storylines. Its offtopic but also our choices dont have much impact - like you save or not the ferengi on the old dominion domination arc doesnt give you something different in the future. Same on nimbus III when you got the option to capture and kill the orion guy or the alien you encounter in the nexus.


    Finally ships can sell anytime - the flagships pack may had been made long ago and was expensive prob to make and maybe didnt do as many sales they expected in limited time but it was paid once (for development) and still people buy it - I know people who bought it recently for KDF side on black friday sales. Also speaking of ships, have you ever noticed how many ships are same made into a different name and adjusted to fit a new tier? Why not instead have scaling ships that scale till tier 5 for free and from tier 6(and beyond if they ever release more tiers) to pay a zen item for leveling it. Would save a lot of time for devs and space on our roster
  • brian334brian334 Member Posts: 2,186 Arc User
    warpangel wrote: »
    patrickngo wrote: »
    warpangel wrote: »
    After the initial storylines are over, all the "factions" play exactly the same. Sure, some offer larger ship lists but that's generally only relevant for collecting Admiralty cards. Almost all faction ships made in recent years are more or less copypasted for everyone with minimal differences (cloaks, "can mount dual cannons," singularity cores, few points difference in some stat or another). The ones that aren't, still get their consoles and traits boxed up and made available for the other factions (for a fraction of the price of the ship).

    So yeah, if you like to collect huge list of Admiralty cards, Fed-Rom's the ticket. Otherwise, it's pretty much down to what kind of backstory you want your character to have and what kind of clothes you want your character to wear?

    And the simple fact is the answer to that for most players is Starfleet.

    the term you're looking for, is "Homogenized". Everyone, regardless of their supposed 'Faction' ends up being a Starfleet officer in all but name.

    There's a reason for this, of course. as I said, Cryptic doesn't have (and never had, and likely never will have) the resources to do anything else with the line. They seriously do NOT have the resources to develop the game in any other way-they don't have the manpower, money, time, or necessary permissions from CBS to build their own canon for aspects like the Klingon Empire, Romulans, or Dominion-they're neither inclined, nor allowed to develop those factions beyond "Starfleet's Sidekick" and whatever has been explicitly already done in the canon.

    Futher, as you've noted above; by choosing Starfleet/Federation (or more particularly Federation aligned Romulan) a player gets everything, gameplay-wise, that KDF players get (aside from a few low-level adventures as Starfleet's pawn in the empire and some long-not-updated costume options), while also retaining everything Federation players get, plus better stats over-all.

    there's literally no draw for anyone who wasn't already a Klingon Fan, nor is there gameplay variety to stimulate interest in the less populated F(r)actions. No draw in terms of story, game mechanics, or options/alterations to gameplay. Instead, there are very good reasons to stick with Starfleet's pet Romulan, including superior gameplay mechanics, the ability to really, really, really buff your admiralty stack for fast dilithium earning, and access to everything game-mechanics-wise that you would have from either of the 'main' factions, PLUS better options in doffing and larger fleets and player population.
    But why should there be? What's wrong with players being allowed to freely choose their "faction" based on who they're a fan of or what kind of story they want to play, without locking themselves in to some kind of permanent gameplay consequences in the process?

    "Homogenization" is good. It gives players the flexibility to combine the origin story they like with the gameplay they like. And stuff like the uneven ship lists are only a side-effect of said homogenization being incomplete. If they ever get to finish what they've started, everyone would have the same ship list, too. All the ships.

    I'll take a stab at this one:

    Diversity.

    Homogenization breeds single-meta-thinking. When everyone has access to all the same things, there will emerge a 'best' design, be it captains, ship setups, ground gear, whatever, and once players all have those they need not invest further in the game.

    By creating very different factions, none of which possess all the keys to the perfect meta, an enforced roll-over is created as players experiment with tweaking that least little bit of performance improvement out of their build. This causes players to engage in a never-ending quest for 'better' which requires Dil and Marks farming and Zen purchases.

    Homogenization is the road to stagnation. Contentment seems like a laudable goal, but it really is another word for stagnation. There are two paths to stagnation in a game: give players nothing they want, and give players everything they want. According to patricngo's thesis, the KDF has already achieved stagnation via developer neglect. Now they seem to wish to achieve it on the Federation side as well via homogenization.

    STO is an old game. As games go it's been fairly long-lived and successful. The sure way to kill it is to take away anything that makes characters unique. When everyone is Captain Kirk, there's nothing special about being Captain Kirk.
  • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 9,220 Arc User
    edited December 2018
    brian334 wrote: »
    warpangel wrote: »
    patrickngo wrote: »
    warpangel wrote: »
    After the initial storylines are over, all the "factions" play exactly the same. Sure, some offer larger ship lists but that's generally only relevant for collecting Admiralty cards. Almost all faction ships made in recent years are more or less copypasted for everyone with minimal differences (cloaks, "can mount dual cannons," singularity cores, few points difference in some stat or another). The ones that aren't, still get their consoles and traits boxed up and made available for the other factions (for a fraction of the price of the ship).

    So yeah, if you like to collect huge list of Admiralty cards, Fed-Rom's the ticket. Otherwise, it's pretty much down to what kind of backstory you want your character to have and what kind of clothes you want your character to wear?

    And the simple fact is the answer to that for most players is Starfleet.

    the term you're looking for, is "Homogenized". Everyone, regardless of their supposed 'Faction' ends up being a Starfleet officer in all but name.

    There's a reason for this, of course. as I said, Cryptic doesn't have (and never had, and likely never will have) the resources to do anything else with the line. They seriously do NOT have the resources to develop the game in any other way-they don't have the manpower, money, time, or necessary permissions from CBS to build their own canon for aspects like the Klingon Empire, Romulans, or Dominion-they're neither inclined, nor allowed to develop those factions beyond "Starfleet's Sidekick" and whatever has been explicitly already done in the canon.

    Futher, as you've noted above; by choosing Starfleet/Federation (or more particularly Federation aligned Romulan) a player gets everything, gameplay-wise, that KDF players get (aside from a few low-level adventures as Starfleet's pawn in the empire and some long-not-updated costume options), while also retaining everything Federation players get, plus better stats over-all.

    there's literally no draw for anyone who wasn't already a Klingon Fan, nor is there gameplay variety to stimulate interest in the less populated F(r)actions. No draw in terms of story, game mechanics, or options/alterations to gameplay. Instead, there are very good reasons to stick with Starfleet's pet Romulan, including superior gameplay mechanics, the ability to really, really, really buff your admiralty stack for fast dilithium earning, and access to everything game-mechanics-wise that you would have from either of the 'main' factions, PLUS better options in doffing and larger fleets and player population.
    But why should there be? What's wrong with players being allowed to freely choose their "faction" based on who they're a fan of or what kind of story they want to play, without locking themselves in to some kind of permanent gameplay consequences in the process?

    "Homogenization" is good. It gives players the flexibility to combine the origin story they like with the gameplay they like. And stuff like the uneven ship lists are only a side-effect of said homogenization being incomplete. If they ever get to finish what they've started, everyone would have the same ship list, too. All the ships.

    I'll take a stab at this one:

    Diversity.

    Homogenization breeds single-meta-thinking. When everyone has access to all the same things, there will emerge a 'best' design, be it captains, ship setups, ground gear, whatever, and once players all have those they need not invest further in the game.

    By creating very different factions, none of which possess all the keys to the perfect meta, an enforced roll-over is created as players experiment with tweaking that least little bit of performance improvement out of their build. This causes players to engage in a never-ending quest for 'better' which requires Dil and Marks farming and Zen purchases.

    Homogenization is the road to stagnation. Contentment seems like a laudable goal, but it really is another word for stagnation. There are two paths to stagnation in a game: give players nothing they want, and give players everything they want. According to patricngo's thesis, the KDF has already achieved stagnation via developer neglect. Now they seem to wish to achieve it on the Federation side as well via homogenization.

    STO is an old game. As games go it's been fairly long-lived and successful. The sure way to kill it is to take away anything that makes characters unique. When everyone is Captain Kirk, there's nothing special about being Captain Kirk.
    Faction-locking doesn't do any of those things.

    There will always be a best design. Faction-locking just means some players aren't allowed to use it. It doesn't "enforce" any kind of "roll-over" or require players to get any better. A piece of cake game is a piece of cake game and it doesn't suddenly start demanding any more of players if a few random trinkets are arbitrarily restricted. What it does enforce is inequality, one of the factions will be the "best" one by virtue of being the one that includes the best build.

    Yes, I agree Cryptic is giving players everything too easy. But faction-locking would actually make it worse, because if a given goal is not allowed for a given player at all, that's just one less thing the player has to do. What would help is creation of better stuff for players to acquire (actually better, not just "options" that are only ever clearly superior to previous "options" by accident and subject to "fixing" once players have adopted them), and matching content that requires better stuff to win (which, obviously, would mean giving up on the Easy Mode "everyone can win everything" -policy, so not bloody likely). And then adjusting the amount of effort, skill and/or luck required to get the stuff such that the developers can keep up creating new things as the players exhaust the old.

    Things don't become any more unique or special by making them available to "only" half the players, either. Things are made unique and special by making them rare, expensive and/or hard to get. That gold-plated ferengi ship they gave some players at some point, that we still don't know the exact criteria for, that's unique and special. Faction-locked stuff is not.
  • brian334brian334 Member Posts: 2,186 Arc User
    Poor implementation of factions is not diversity.

    The factions should be rock-paper-scissors. (Or rock-paper-scissors-lizard-Spock.) Meaning that all choices are equally viable, but have different approaches and different play philosophies. None should be the ultimate choice, or give the broadest range of options, or have the best gear, or have the six must-have devices that make a character uber.

    The fact that the factions are not, as currently implemented, equally viable choices is the problem, and doing more of what screwed things up is the wrong direction to go, in my opinion.
  • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 9,220 Arc User
    patrickngo wrote: »
    warpangel wrote: »
    brian334 wrote: »
    warpangel wrote: »
    patrickngo wrote: »
    warpangel wrote: »
    After the initial storylines are over, all the "factions" play exactly the same. Sure, some offer larger ship lists but that's generally only relevant for collecting Admiralty cards. Almost all faction ships made in recent years are more or less copypasted for everyone with minimal differences (cloaks, "can mount dual cannons," singularity cores, few points difference in some stat or another). The ones that aren't, still get their consoles and traits boxed up and made available for the other factions (for a fraction of the price of the ship).

    So yeah, if you like to collect huge list of Admiralty cards, Fed-Rom's the ticket. Otherwise, it's pretty much down to what kind of backstory you want your character to have and what kind of clothes you want your character to wear?

    And the simple fact is the answer to that for most players is Starfleet.

    the term you're looking for, is "Homogenized". Everyone, regardless of their supposed 'Faction' ends up being a Starfleet officer in all but name.

    There's a reason for this, of course. as I said, Cryptic doesn't have (and never had, and likely never will have) the resources to do anything else with the line. They seriously do NOT have the resources to develop the game in any other way-they don't have the manpower, money, time, or necessary permissions from CBS to build their own canon for aspects like the Klingon Empire, Romulans, or Dominion-they're neither inclined, nor allowed to develop those factions beyond "Starfleet's Sidekick" and whatever has been explicitly already done in the canon.

    Futher, as you've noted above; by choosing Starfleet/Federation (or more particularly Federation aligned Romulan) a player gets everything, gameplay-wise, that KDF players get (aside from a few low-level adventures as Starfleet's pawn in the empire and some long-not-updated costume options), while also retaining everything Federation players get, plus better stats over-all.

    there's literally no draw for anyone who wasn't already a Klingon Fan, nor is there gameplay variety to stimulate interest in the less populated F(r)actions. No draw in terms of story, game mechanics, or options/alterations to gameplay. Instead, there are very good reasons to stick with Starfleet's pet Romulan, including superior gameplay mechanics, the ability to really, really, really buff your admiralty stack for fast dilithium earning, and access to everything game-mechanics-wise that you would have from either of the 'main' factions, PLUS better options in doffing and larger fleets and player population.
    But why should there be? What's wrong with players being allowed to freely choose their "faction" based on who they're a fan of or what kind of story they want to play, without locking themselves in to some kind of permanent gameplay consequences in the process?

    "Homogenization" is good. It gives players the flexibility to combine the origin story they like with the gameplay they like. And stuff like the uneven ship lists are only a side-effect of said homogenization being incomplete. If they ever get to finish what they've started, everyone would have the same ship list, too. All the ships.

    I'll take a stab at this one:

    Diversity.

    Homogenization breeds single-meta-thinking. When everyone has access to all the same things, there will emerge a 'best' design, be it captains, ship setups, ground gear, whatever, and once players all have those they need not invest further in the game.

    By creating very different factions, none of which possess all the keys to the perfect meta, an enforced roll-over is created as players experiment with tweaking that least little bit of performance improvement out of their build. This causes players to engage in a never-ending quest for 'better' which requires Dil and Marks farming and Zen purchases.

    Homogenization is the road to stagnation. Contentment seems like a laudable goal, but it really is another word for stagnation. There are two paths to stagnation in a game: give players nothing they want, and give players everything they want. According to patricngo's thesis, the KDF has already achieved stagnation via developer neglect. Now they seem to wish to achieve it on the Federation side as well via homogenization.

    STO is an old game. As games go it's been fairly long-lived and successful. The sure way to kill it is to take away anything that makes characters unique. When everyone is Captain Kirk, there's nothing special about being Captain Kirk.
    Faction-locking doesn't do any of those things.

    There will always be a best design. Faction-locking just means some players aren't allowed to use it. It doesn't "enforce" any kind of "roll-over" or require players to get any better. A piece of cake game is a piece of cake game and it doesn't suddenly start demanding any more of players if a few random trinkets are arbitrarily restricted. What it does enforce is inequality, one of the factions will be the "best" one by virtue of being the one that includes the best build.

    Yes, I agree Cryptic is giving players everything too easy. But faction-locking would actually make it worse, because if a given goal is not allowed for a given player at all, that's just one less thing the player has to do. What would help is creation of better stuff for players to acquire (actually better, not just "options" that are only ever clearly superior to previous "options" by accident and subject to "fixing" once players have adopted them), and matching content that requires better stuff to win (which, obviously, would mean giving up on the Easy Mode "everyone can win everything" -policy, so not bloody likely). And then adjusting the amount of effort, skill and/or luck required to get the stuff such that the developers can keep up creating new things as the players exhaust the old.

    Things don't become any more unique or special by making them available to "only" half the players, either. Things are made unique and special by making them rare, expensive and/or hard to get. That gold-plated ferengi ship they gave some players at some point, that we still don't know the exact criteria for, that's unique and special. Faction-locked stuff is not.

    Ahem... "You're wrong."

    Premium Giveaways are premium giveaways. That's just 'stuff', that solid gold Ferengi ship doesn't make playing the game better, it's just this un-earned 'thing' tossed out like a key-fob at a convention, basically having less significance than a participation trophy handed out at an elementary school field-day. That's right, less significance than a purple ribbon, because it was randomly spammed out to people who may not even be playing the game anymore, as an enticement to get them to come back.

    That's not "Unique and Special" it's "Desperate and kind of lame".

    "I didn't get one so it's just 'stuff' with no significance." :p

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fox_and_the_Grapes
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 34,552 Arc User
    Thing is you really don't need to have all the things in the game. And most of the bellyaching about the state of the KDF is pining for things Feds have. It's this weird discordance between wanting all the things the Feds have while also wanting to be unique and different...
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
    Costume_marhawkman_Tsin%27xing_CC_Comic_Page_Blue_488916968.jpg
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 34,552 Arc User
    patrickngo wrote: »
    Thing is you really don't need to have all the things in the game. And most of the bellyaching about the state of the KDF is pining for things Feds have. It's this weird discordance between wanting all the things the Feds have while also wanting to be unique and different...
    What 'stuff'??

    do you mean, perhaps, "Ship traits that actually work?" Because yeah, the DROP (Delta Rising Operations Pack) gave the KDF the only two unique traits they would get, neither of which actually worked when it released, one of which finally got working because ti was going into a lockbox for Federation players as a boobieprize. (the other one, the one for the Qib? still doesn't work) meanwhile, the Seven ships Fed players got, all those traits work, and work together.

    So if you're talking about that, sure...
    You mean the ones that are now account unlocks that all of my KDF characters can use without mastering the ship?

    I was actually thinking about how people used to whine about wanting better KDF science ships. Well, those exist now.
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
    Costume_marhawkman_Tsin%27xing_CC_Comic_Page_Blue_488916968.jpg
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 34,552 Arc User
    Raider? you mean the Aquarius garbage? Battlecruiser? Not sure if you're talking about the Chel Grett or what....
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
    Costume_marhawkman_Tsin%27xing_CC_Comic_Page_Blue_488916968.jpg
  • sirsitsalotsirsitsalot Member Posts: 1,708 Arc User
    I just wish Cryptic would just look at all aspects of this game, and I mean ALL of them and see them as equal parts of a cohesive whole and find a way to support them equally... And it is not true that the money isn't there. We keep seeing pop up messages about so-and-so unlocking this-or-that. And as often as it happens, knowing how tight the lockbox ship jackpot is, there is a clear evidence of massive revenue from key sales alone... ALL of which flows into PWE's bank account. The money is there, but PWE won't allocate it. They dole out enough to meet the contractual obligations to the developers, and to maintain the status quo. But they will not dole out enough to make the game grow.

    No... What we have is all we are going to get. Threads like this serve absolutely no purpose. Cryptic cannot do any more than what PWE allocates funds for man-hours to do. And the way things are now, it would tale a LOT of extra man-hours to bring everything into parity.

    I would love to see PvP fully supported, even though I am not into PvP myself
    I would love to see the Romulan storyline continued
    I would love to see the 23rd Century Starfleet storyline continued... In the 23rd Century
    I would love to see the Jem'hadar storyline continued
    I would love to see the Discovery storyline continued... In the discovery era.
    And I would absolutely love to see the KDF storyline continued.
    I would also love to see the foundry treated seriously enough that it is included in the workflow for expansions and seasonal launches, so that it doesn't constantly break whenever they launch something new, only to be brought back up with the same issues it has had for years now.

    My biggest question is, with 365 days in a year, and how few and far between mission content releases are, what IS Cryptic actually doing most days. We have foundry authors (when the foundry WORKS) able to turn out way better content in way less time and for no monetary compensation than what Cryptic is paid to professionally produce. And if the delays are due to waiting for a veteran trek actor's schedule to clear so they can spend a day at a recording studio to record all their lines for a story arc, then I would rather them save the money, create a new character and get some unknown, but competent voice actor to do the work. Having veteran trek actors is a wonderful novelty. But if having them is putting the release of official content in a straightjacket, then I see it as a liability more than an asset.

    Heck... I am sure SOMEONE would be willing to work for $15/hr if they could work from home, have a clear set of guidelines as to where they can and cannot take a story. Give them access to a dev-level mission editor and they will create a Romulan, Jem'hadar, 23rd Century Starfleet, or Klingon SERIES, using existing art assets. Need to talk to them directly? VIDEO CONFERENCING. Need to send them development directives? EMAIL. This is the 21st century. There is not a single thing required in game design that cannot be done remotely using the right set of tools. Need to vet that person's work? Fine... They would be a paid employee. A supervisor can review the mission content and then turn it over to the core dev team for inclusion in the core game.

    Come on Cryptic/PWE... look at your foundry authors and pick one from each "factional storyline" and offer them a job. Don't tell me you can't afford it. Like I said... key sales alone are letting cash flow like a river into your coffers, so I know better...

    This is not about what CANNOT be done... It is about what JUST WON'T be done.
    I have no further snarky comments to make, at this time...
  • somtaawkharsomtaawkhar Member Posts: 6,622 Arc User
    edited December 2018
    I would love to see the Romulan storyline continued
    I would love to see the 23rd Century Starfleet storyline continued... In the 23rd Century
    I would love to see the Jem'hadar storyline continued
    I would love to see the Discovery storyline continued... In the discovery era.
    And I would absolutely love to see the KDF storyline continued.
    The Romulan, KDF, and Jen'Hadar storylines are already being continued. They have been since they came out.

    And the 23rd and Disco era storylines not continuing in those eras has nothing to do with how much money PWE gives them, but rather a choice to make them not.
    My biggest question is, with 365 days in a year, and how few and far between mission content releases are, what IS Cryptic actually doing most days.
    Besides making new missions, TFOs, ships, new texture and model sets for those, getting the VA recorded, and all the other stuff that goes into development of a game.

    Even Guild Wars 2, a much larger and more profitable game only releases new story drops every 3 months or so, and they have THREE TEAMS working on story drops at once(meaning each game gets upwards of 6-9 months for a single story drop) It takes a rather large amount of time to make even one story mission a player can get through in 30 minutes to an hour.
  • sarvour0sarvour0 Member Posts: 382 Arc User
    My KDF mains were made in they before times; the clunky age of the Alpha Build of the KDF Faction, which had to be temporarily suspended before it was relaunched, in a slightly different format.
    Not only are they still 'mains' in todays much larger roster of characters, but I have added more supporting characters and even a few new mains/alt-mains on the KDF side.

    I recently started my own KDF Fleet. My Cardassian Captains & BOffs are all pre-ViL, and some of them are proudly serving in the KDF.

    I personally have a massive wish list of ships & other content I want added for KDF, but not having it (yet) is not diminishing my experience. That KDF side seems to have more ongoing bugs is a bit of a pain, but I try to not let it get to me.

    Is the glass half empty, or half full?

    That said, when are they going to fix KDF Warp VFX? Ships disappear immediately, as the vfx animation & sound begin.
    4073703.jpg
    [SIGPIC]Sarvour Shipyards[/SIGPIC]Sarvour Shipyards
    =A=Commodore Joshua Daniel Sarvour, S.C.E.
    U.S.S. AKAGI NX-93347, Enterprise-class Battle Cruiser =A= U.S.S. T'KORA'S WRATH NX-110047, Odyssey-class Battle Cruiser

    "There Ain't No Grave, Can Hold My Body Down..."

    PS - I fully support a T6 Nova, fixing the Nova skins. I am also rooting for a T6 Science Cruiser, that can use Nova/Rhode Island skins.
    T6 Nova/Rhode Island, T6 Oberth & T6 Constellation are needed. Also needed a T6 Science Cruiser, that can wear any Science or Cruiser skin.
  • tigerariestigeraries Member Posts: 3,114 Arc User
    warpangel wrote: »
    Kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy: Convince everyone that Klingon is a bad choice, because there's not enough players and not enough dev support; People then don't choose Klingon and it goes round and round.
    But it's not a prophecy at all, it's the current state of the game. There are significantly less players and less dev support on KDF. What else are we supposed to say, lie to new players about it?
    Lie? playing KDF IS FUN! Telling newbies otherwise IS lying!!!!

    Fun is subjective. Game is written from a Fed point of view. You have a KDF faction with a bunch of races that would never act like a Klingon or Fed but they mouth off all these lines due to storyline... it sucks so much.
  • somtaawkharsomtaawkhar Member Posts: 6,622 Arc User
    edited December 2018
    The Romulan, KDF, and Jen'Hadar storylines are already being continued. They have been since they came out.
    Just because I wanted to expand on this.

    I don't know how some people think the world works, but governments, nations, political entities, etc., don't exist in some sort of bubble, or total vacuum from each other. Many of the problems facing one nation are being faced by many others, which is why nations come together to tackle these problems.

    The Romulan Republic started off as a small fleet of ships and throughout the story has
    -Gained recognition as a political entity from the other major powers
    -Found a new homeworld to settle on
    -Gained like-minded allies in the Reman Resistance
    -Worked by themselves, and with their Federation and Klingon allies, to disrupt and take down the Romulan Star Empire, Tal Shiar, and Elachi, who were threatening them
    And in the process have secured themselves and dealt with all of the logical political problems facing them. Since then they have worked with their allies on various ventures that affected them all such as the Dyson Sphere, Operation Delta Rising, the Iconian War, the Temporal Cold War, the Tzenkethi Conflict, and the Hur'q invasion, all of which have helped their nation secure new technologies, and protect themselves against forces that sought to destroy them.

    This same is true of the Klingons who had arcs involving
    -Their war with the Federation
    -Internal house politics, and the Romulan manipulation of them
    -The return of an ancient enemy, the Fek'Ihri
    And has since then dealt with the Borg alongside the Federation, and the other same problems the Romulans have as well, as mentioned above.

    This idea that a faction's story isn't being continued because they aren't getting faction specific/locked missions is complete and utter nonsense. The real world doesn't work that way, and Star Trek never worked that way itself, so STO shouldn't, and doesn't, work that way either. The Romulans were the driving political force keeping the Federation and Klingons from fighting each other throughout the New Romulus, and Solanae Dyson Sphere arcs, and continue to serve as galactic mediators, as most major political functions seem to take place on New Romulus. While the Klingons have basically lead, or saved the day, in the Iconian War, and the Tzenkethi and Hur'q conflicts. The Romulan Republic and KDF have been major parts of all story arcs since their individual faction missions ended, and these stories affect, and advance the state of, both of them as well.
  • spielman1spielman1 Member Posts: 1,039 Arc User
    The Romulan, KDF, and Jen'Hadar storylines are already being continued. They have been since they came out.
    Just because I wanted to expand on this.

    I don't know how some people think the world works, but governments, nations, political entities, etc., don't exist in some sort of bubble, or total vacuum from each other. Many of the problems facing one nation are being faced by many others, which is why nations come together to tackle these problems.

    The Romulan Republic started off as a small fleet of ships and throughout the story has
    -Gained recognition as a political entity from the other major powers
    -Found a new homeworld to settle on
    -Gained like-minded allies in the Reman Resistance
    -Worked by themselves, and with their Federation and Klingon allies, to disrupt and take down the Romulan Star Empire, Tal Shiar, and Elachi, who were threatening them
    And in the process have secured themselves and dealt with all of the logical political problems facing them. Since then they have worked with their allies on various ventures that affected them all such as the Dyson Sphere, Operation Delta Rising, the Iconian War, the Temporal Cold War, the Tzenkethi Conflict, and the Hur'q invasion, all of which have helped their nation secure new technologies, and protect themselves against forces that sought to destroy them.

    This same is true of the Klingons who had arcs involving
    -Their war with the Federation
    -Internal house politics, and the Romulan manipulation of them
    -The return of an ancient enemy, the Fek'Ihri
    And has since then dealt with the Borg alongside the Federation, and the other same problems the Romulans have as well, as mentioned above.

    This idea that a faction's story isn't being continued because they aren't getting faction specific/locked missions is complete and utter nonsense. The real world doesn't work that way, and Star Trek never worked that way itself, so STO shouldn't, and doesn't, work that way either. The Romulans were the driving political force keeping the Federation and Klingons from fighting each other throughout the New Romulus, and Solanae Dyson Sphere arcs, and continue to serve as galactic mediators, as most major political functions seem to take place on New Romulus. While the Klingons have basically lead, or saved the day, in the Iconian War, and the Tzenkethi and Hur'q conflicts. The Romulan Republic and KDF have been major parts of all story arcs since their individual faction missions ended, and these stories affect, and advance the state of, both of them as well.

    You have a point only thing I hate is the lack of Romulan and Klingon faction ships as of late not much has come out and usually when the staff does get ready Tron effect or something that isn't quite right for that Factions ship style.
  • somtaawkharsomtaawkhar Member Posts: 6,622 Arc User
    edited December 2018
    spielman1 wrote: »
    You have a point only thing I hate is the lack of Romulan and Klingon faction ships as of late not much has come out and usually when the staff does get ready Tron effect or something that isn't quite right for that Factions ship style.
    Well we should be getting a big dump of discovery ship for the Klingons by the time AoD is over. They have said they plan to add all those ships eventually.
    patrickngo wrote: »
    No, Som, you're confusing their supporting character/NPC status for a continued 'Storyline' when there really isn't much of a storyline to begin with, (aside from being The Federation's Long Haired Buddy)_

    You're confusing the continuing adventures of your Federation Main for a storyline where anyone who isn't a Fed main has any significance whatsoever.

    what you don't grasp, is that the entire game would be no different and would suffer no loss, if they accidentally lost all the player material for KDF-because it's just an NPC. The NPC 'story' (Scenes to make Feds look good) continues, but as a player story, it's basically a wash if you aren't Federation Starfleet. Heck, the Romulan story is basically the adventures of Tovan Khev and his sidekick the player character, but once you've reached the end of that, Tovan vanishes and the sidekick player character gets to be the sidekick of Starfleet.
    (but at least there's a Romulan story that begins, middles, and ends. For KDF, it's just disconnected scenes between doing what Starfleet tells you to do-in the way Starfleet does it. You don't even get to use your unique background or traits or anything, you're playing through it as a Starfleet Officer dressed in leathers.)

    All the "Story" KDF side ends with "...and Starfleet is the most wonderfullest bunch in the universe!"

    So no, don't try to claim that whitewash is "The Klingon Story". it's not. It's garbage.
    By this TRIBBLE backwards logic the content wouldn't even be a continuation of your Federation character's story because it has literally nothing to do with your Federation character specifically, or what they did in the tutorial or Federation faction only missions.

    If you actually want to go with this argument, its a no faction character story, because the characters themselves have never HAD a story to themselves/that was about themselves.
  • somtaawkharsomtaawkhar Member Posts: 6,622 Arc User
    edited December 2018
    patrickngo wrote: »
    No, see, here's the thing, Som, old chap. The entire underlying theme for KDF and to a lesser extent, Romulans, is "Look how great it's gonna be when we give up our sovereignty and culture and become just another subject of the United Federation of Planets."
    You can keep pushing this until hell freezes over, but its still just as wrong now as it was when you first tried it
    A. The Federation is not a singular nation, and every alien species that joins it retains their own planetary Independence
    B. Joining the Federation does not require giving up your culture, and we have seen from all the other races that have joined it that they still retain their culture.

    There is nothing about Klingon or Romulan sovereignty or culture that would have to be changed or removed if they joined the Federation. Just like the Vulcans, Andorians, Tellarites, Deltans, Saurians, Trill, etc. etc. didn't have to either.
    patrickngo wrote: »
    Hell, look at "Victory is Life", seriously? TWO ancient enemies, but the Klingons have to wait for Starfleet/Federation (the Ferengi are, in STO, members of the Federation) to give them a shiny stick before they're willing to get involved?
    So you literally didn't pay attention to either the in-game storyline, or lore blogs, were Martok was allowed to take all willing Klingons into the GQ to fight the Hur'q? All the Sword of Kahless was used for was to force J'mpok to make the rest fight also.
    patrickngo wrote: »
    (the Ferengi are, in STO, members of the Federation)
    Entirely incorrect. All attempts by Rom to get the Ferengi to join the Federation failed. Ferengi only serve in Starfleet because the Federation allowed a dual citizenship program for races outside of the Federation

    https://sto.gamepedia.com/Path_to_2409
    The Nagus presented a bill to the Economic Congress of Ferengi Advisers that would formally ally the Ferengi with the Federation. Opponents of the bill launched a campaign of advertisements that argued that a formal alliance with the Federation was an attack on traditional Ferengi values, and that the Federation would force the Ferengi to turn back on profit and the Great Material Continuum. The bill failed to pass the Congress after several lawmakers were paid to vote against it.
    And on Ferenginar, Grand Nagus Rom used a portion of the profits from his trade agreements with the Cardassians to finance the passage of expanded technology and information sharing agreements with the Federation.

    "He's tying us to those charity-loving, no-latinum no-goods in the Federation," raged Qaris, an independent Ferengi running a trading station in the Argelius system. "I'm a legitimate businessman! I won't stand for it!"

    While many Ferengi opposed closer ties with the Federation, and others saw the profit available in trading with the Klingon Empire and other Federation foes, Rom argued that the future of business depended on good relations with the Federation.

    When opposition from the Economic Congress of Ferengi Advisers proved too costly to overcome, Rom took his victories and ended his fight for a formal alliance with the Federation.
    After six years of reports, panels and legislative wrangling, the Federation council approved rules for dual citizenship. This option was created to allow beings to apply for permanent residency and other rights without sundering all of their ties to their homeworlds.

    Dual citizens could live and work anywhere in the Federation, apply for Federation grants, and even vote in Federation elections. However, dual citizens owed allegiance to and were subject to the laws of both political entities of which they are citizens. Also, the homeworld of an applicant must allow dual citizenship as well.
    Cardassia Prime's Detapa Council quickly passed a law allowing Cardassians to become dual citizens of the Federation, and Grand Nagus Rom bullied a measure through the Ferengi Economic Congress of Advisors that allowed Ferengi to take part in the program after purchasing a citizenship license.

    patrickngo wrote: »
    Every mission, every situation, every storyline, you're doing things exactly the way a Starfleet officer has to do them. Borrowing a used, second-hand cloaking device? Having to run uncloaked on a covert operation? none of this is a "Klingon" storyline, it's a FEDERATION story where KDF players are 'permitted to cosplay being Starfleet officers'.

    TRIBBLE, even in ground situations, you really expect a KDF General Officer to accept being lectured on the Prime Directive by a mouthy, junior, foreign, officer (Kobali ground)? without offering so much as a rebuke? This is akin to expecting a Hordie to stand there and accept being lectured about the wonders of the Alliance and the superiority of humans, in that Blizzard property.
    This argument only works if you stereotype all Klingons into acting exactly the same way, and their all idiotically headstrong warriors who can't even take someone saying something they disagree with without getting snippy. Which is entirely untrue.

    Your entire argument of "it isn't Klingon" is "its not my one dimensional and utterly wrong view of how Klingons should act!"
  • sirsitsalotsirsitsalot Member Posts: 1,708 Arc User
    I would love to see the Romulan storyline continued
    I would love to see the 23rd Century Starfleet storyline continued... In the 23rd Century
    I would love to see the Jem'hadar storyline continued
    I would love to see the Discovery storyline continued... In the discovery era.
    And I would absolutely love to see the KDF storyline continued.
    The Romulan, KDF, and Jen'Hadar storylines are already being continued. They have been since they came out.
    I think you know that I meant that the faction-CENTRIC stories be continued. I refuse to play stupid with you.
    And the 23rd and Disco era storylines not continuing in those eras has nothing to do with how much money PWE gives them, but rather a choice to make them not.

    It's a choice they have no choice but to make, PWE allocates the funds. If they wanted to, they could allocate enough to hire mission authors like I suggested and we would HAVE official KDF-centric, NRR-centric, 23cUFP-centric, AND J'H-Centric content. but PWE WON'T do that, so Cryptic doesn't have a choice.
    My biggest question is, with 365 days in a year, and how few and far between mission content releases are, what IS Cryptic actually doing most days.
    Besides making new missions, TFOs, ships, new texture and model sets for those, getting the VA recorded, and all the other stuff that goes into development of a game.[/quote]

    TFOs are playable content, so that is fine. New textures and models are not made by the mission content team, and there are enough assets in the game to create many years worth of mission content. This idea that every new mission MUST have all new assets is stupid. The shows this game are based on typically ran for years with the same exact sets. TNG got Ten Forward and DS9 got the wardroom, and VOY got astrometrics. Sure there were some other additions, but we are talking about sets that got added in a single season and were reused for every episode after that. And we were fine with it... Now of course, the art team should knock themselves out and release as many new assets as they can, but if the Foundry demonstrates anything well, it is that a little creativity goes a long way when it comes to reusing existing assets. So that is not a good enough excuse for the long delays between mission content releases. VA recording? You do know that the average length of time for recording a VA is maybe a couple of days, depending on how much dialogue they have. And they can go to a local recording studio to do it, with the producer having received the specific details on what is needed. It's not like they have the same sort of workload as they did when they were filming the shows. And that other stuff that goes into game development? It's called programming, which the mission content creators do not do...
    Even Guild Wars 2, a much larger and more profitable game only releases new story drops every 3 months or so, and they have THREE TEAMS working on story drops at once(meaning each game gets upwards of 6-9 months for a single story drop) It takes a rather large amount of time to make even one story mission a player can get through in 30 minutes to an hour.

    Back when I played GW2, I seem to remember that their story arcs were more than just a few missions and done. I seem to remember them running for a while, with multiple events tied in and rolled out in measured, but regular intervals. Players will always consume content faster than it can be developed. A season of a star trek show typically ran 22-24 episodes, and they were released in staggered fashion over the course of 9 months, with roughly 3 months in between seasons. There is absolutely nothing that prevents an MMO from being able to do the same thing, except for executive decisions to the contrary.
    I have no further snarky comments to make, at this time...
  • warmaker001bwarmaker001b Member Posts: 9,062 Arc User
    That particular cycle was started by the devs and has been perpetuated by them with each revolution of the wheel, the players only keep it rotating and can't do anything to change the direction.

    Pick whatever class and whatever faction you want, words like optimal shouldn't come into the equation. Personally I find tacs really rather bland and one dimensional, sci on the other hand is much more interesting even if they suffer from having been the "healer" in the old days when sto tied them into the unholy trinity of mmo's.

    You are the only one who dictates what you find fun.

    There were faction differences to take note of but those were wayyyy back in the day. Long before Tier 6 and Delta Rising existed, before even that.

    Cloaks and especially Battle Cloaks were a big deal for the KDF before the Roms arrived. Most especially so when there was still KDF vs Fed PVP going on. The Roms get far superior Cloak access, Battle Cloaks at the minimum all around. That's not a problem in itself. But then the Roms we find out were a sub-faction. So now we had Fed-Roms with Battle Cloaks. Anyways. The value of Cloaks has diminished with the ever-dwindling PVP. Cloaks don't really have a major benefit in PVE like it does in PVP.

    Universal BOFF Stations. Do you remember when Universal BOFF stations were only found on the Birds of Prey of the KDF? I still do. And that was a highly demanded item from Feds to get access to. Now everyone has access to Universal Stations. There are even Non-KDF Raiders with tons of Universal seats, and of course, they are more heavily armed and sturdier than BOPs.

    Battlecruisers. High agility Cruisers with the ability to slot DHCs as an option. That was what differentiated KDF Cruisers from Fed Cruisers. Fed Cruisers by tradition did not do DC / DHCs. Battlecruisers did not necessarily mean a LtCmdr TAC Station. We were spanking Feds with Lt TAC Negh'Vars and Lt + Ens TAC Vor'Chas. Fed Cruisers had the same Tactical Station layouts as KDF. It was the agility of KDF Battlecruisers and DC / DHC capability that Feds wanted.

    And they got it, in the form of the Fed Avenger Battlecruiser.

    Carriers. The KDF were the original faction with Carriers in STO. The Vo'Quv was the only Carrier and then the KDF get the C-Store Kar'Fi. If a Fed wanted a Carrier, they needed to fork out for the JHDC. Then the Atrox came out, and the Jupiter in Tier 6 years later. Hell, the KDF still doesn't have a Tier 6 Carrier unless it forks out big. The Vo'Quv and Kar'Fi still have not transitioned into Tier 6.

    Oh, speaking of Kar'Fi, the console it comes with? It doesn't even form a Set Bonus with the new event ship, another Fek'Ihri ship. The new ship is ONLY the 2nd ever ship from this race ever put into the game, and it doesn't even make a set bonus with the first ever. But this isn't the first time. The T6 Multi-Mission SCI Vessels / "Vesta" cross faction releases? The new Gorn ships don't even have a set bonus with the T5 Varanus Repair Platform.

    There's also been an interesting trend with many of these newer "KDF Battlecruisers" that don't behave like KDF Battlecruisers and can't even use DC / DHC weapons. They are all in effect, Fed Cruisers.

    There's all kinds more of oversights (evidence nobody understands the KDF in Cryptic), loss of uniqueness to the faction over the years.
    XzRTofz.gif
  • somtaawkharsomtaawkhar Member Posts: 6,622 Arc User
    edited December 2018
    I think you know that I meant that the faction-CENTRIC stories be continued. I refuse to play stupid with you.
    That would require that there be something that would logically only be available to those factions to continue. And there isn't.

    With the defeat of the Romulan Star Empire, Tal Shiar, and Elachi, as well as finding ad establishing a new homeworld, there is little the Romulan Republic has to do that they couldn't, or wouldn't, ask for assistance from their Klingon and Federation allies. The same applies for the Klingons as well. The Klingons already defeated the Fek'Ihri, took down Torg, and uncovered the Romulan connection to Torg. What exactly do you think these factions would be doing that would exclude the others, who are their allies, from assisting?
    It's a choice they have no choice but to make, PWE allocates the funds. If they wanted to, they could allocate enough to hire mission authors like I suggested and we would HAVE official KDF-centric, NRR-centric, 23cUFP-centric, AND J'H-Centric content. but PWE WON'T do that, so Cryptic doesn't have a choice.
    A. That isn't how game development works.
    B. If they hired mission authors all they would be doing is helping the main team make the current 2410 storyline come out faster.
    C. Even if they weren't, this requires what I mentioned above, that there be something that logically only that faction could do by themselves, and couldn't ask their allies for assistance to accomplish. What pray tell do you think the Romulans, Klingons, or Jem'Hadar, would be doing that their allies wouldn't be able to assist with?

    As much as people scream and stomp for this, I have never once actually seen anyone actually try to explain why this would be the case for that storyline.
    TFOs are playable content, so that is fine. New textures and models are not made by the mission content team, and there are enough assets in the game to create many years worth of mission content. This idea that every new mission MUST have all new assets is stupid. The shows this game are based on typically ran for years with the same exact sets. TNG got Ten Forward and DS9 got the wardroom, and VOY got astrometrics. Sure there were some other additions, but we are talking about sets that got added in a single season and were reused for every episode after that. And we were fine with it... Now of course, the art team should knock themselves out and release as many new assets as they can, but if the Foundry demonstrates anything well, it is that a little creativity goes a long way when it comes to reusing existing assets. So that is not a good enough excuse for the long delays between mission content releases. VA recording? You do know that the average length of time for recording a VA is maybe a couple of days, depending on how much dialogue they have. And they can go to a local recording studio to do it, with the producer having received the specific details on what is needed. It's not like they have the same sort of workload as they did when they were filming the shows. And that other stuff that goes into game development? It's called programming, which the mission content creators do not do...
    1. Needing to make new assets for a few new things isn't the same as saying they need new assets for everything every missions.
    2. You seem to have a misplaced idea on how game development works. Generally speaking the people who make mission content are the programmers. There isn't an entire team of idea guys who just do nothing but sit around all day going "what about X!" writing and element design staff are also programmers in pretty much every game I have ever seen.
    Back when I played GW2, I seem to remember that their story arcs were more than just a few missions and done. I seem to remember them running for a while, with multiple events tied in and rolled out in measured, but regular intervals. Players will always consume content faster than it can be developed. A season of a star trek show typically ran 22-24 episodes, and they were released in staggered fashion over the course of 9 months, with roughly 3 months in between seasons. There is absolutely nothing that prevents an MMO from being able to do the same thing, except for executive decisions to the contrary.
    There is everything that prevents MMOs from doing that, which is way no MMO releases content that fast. Now even WoW is that quick on content. There is no means by which you will get a new mission or episode every week for 26 weeks straight simply due to the time it takes to make content for video games.

    As mentioned before, Guild Wars 2 has three teams working all the time on new releases, and new releases still only come out every 3 months, and take about 6-8 hours to beat. Generally speaking, it can take one of their teams 8 months to make 8 hours of player content, even for much larger game studios.
  • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 9,220 Arc User
    patrickngo wrote: »
    patrickngo wrote: »
    Every mission, every situation, every storyline, you're doing things exactly the way a Starfleet officer has to do them. Borrowing a used, second-hand cloaking device? Having to run uncloaked on a covert operation? none of this is a "Klingon" storyline, it's a FEDERATION story where KDF players are 'permitted to cosplay being Starfleet officers'.

    TRIBBLE, even in ground situations, you really expect a KDF General Officer to accept being lectured on the Prime Directive by a mouthy, junior, foreign, officer (Kobali ground)? without offering so much as a rebuke? This is akin to expecting a Hordie to stand there and accept being lectured about the wonders of the Alliance and the superiority of humans, in that Blizzard property.
    This argument only works if you stereotype all Klingons into acting exactly the same way, and their all idiotically headstrong warriors who can't even take someone saying something they disagree with without getting snippy. Which is entirely untrue.

    Your entire argument of "it isn't Klingon" is "its not my one dimensional and utterly wrong view of how Klingons should act!"

    Actually, Som, you're wrong-even in real life, a junior officer mouthing off their political opinions at a General Officer in a disrespectful tone (as happens in the Kobali mission) would face consequences to their career, and that includes "Relief for cause".

    It's called "Conduct Unbecoming", particularly as said mouthing off wasn't invited by said General Officer.

    so no, it's not stereotyping, it's a matter of professionalism in a joint operations environment, but the player isn't even given the option of rebuking verbally, in spite of being an officer from a service that employs, per canon, "Corporeal Correction" being addressed (Uninvited) in a tone (Disrespectful) by a significantly lower ranking officer in a combat zone.
    Actually, the only thing Captain Prime Directive says to the Player Character is "I see" after you tell her of the stasis pods. Her lectures are addressed to Captain Kim.

    Of course, it still would've been most appropriate to allow us a chance to tell her off anyway. Regardless of your origin. She is, after all, badly misapplying the Prime Directive so even a Starfleet Admiral should be correcting her.
This discussion has been closed.