Coalition or (Pen)

Currently rocking some normal Disruptors with the (Pen) mod but wondered (before the Upgrade weekend finishes) if it worth while buying in some coalition disruptors?
I'm using a Rom Tac with dhc

Comments

  • wideningxgyre
    wideningxgyre Member Posts: 690 Arc User
    Coalition: to target: 2.5% Chance: -20 Disruptor Resistance Rating for 30 sec (stacks up to 5 times)

    Pen: All attacks with this weapon ignore 10 Armor Rating

    With coalitions, what makes them is the proc - they were changed with Season 13 to occur with less frequency.

    I'd argue that you'd probably want to use Dual Cannons, not the DHC, to get more firing cycles if you are using coalitions. Second, it seems like Coalitions would have more impact on larger targets with more health that you're trying to whittle down - think the transformers or Tac cube in ISA or the queen and pickle ships in Hive Space - from the 30 sec of lower resistance rating when it does proc.

    Conversely, with Pen you'd want to use DHC since you'd want the most damage per hit. If you're fighting NPCs in Japoori or Argala, for example, 2.5% chance is pretty low. Most of them would die before you'd likely get the coalition proc vs. the armor pen on all attacks.

    So, I think one of the important "it depends" is what type of enemies you expect to fight most frequently.
  • seriousdave
    seriousdave Member Posts: 2,777 Arc User
    Coalition: to target: 2.5% Chance: -20 Disruptor Resistance Rating for 30 sec (stacks up to 5 times)

    Pen: All attacks with this weapon ignore 10 Armor Rating

    With coalitions, what makes them is the proc - they were changed with Season 13 to occur with less frequency.

    I'd argue that you'd probably want to use Dual Cannons, not the DHC, to get more firing cycles if you are using coalitions.

    There's a bit of a misunderstanding here. You don't get "more cycles" with regular dual cannons but more shots per cycle. That gave them an edge on stuff that procced per shot but now that everything is standardised to proc per cycle regular DCs are pretty useless again.

    Personally I'd go for crafted [PEN] weapons for various reasons.
    -way easier and cheaper to get than those lockbox variants
    -easier to upgrade their quality since they come as MKII very rare
    -permanent attribute instead of a 2,5% chance per cycle
    -re-engineerable for a perfect mod setup
  • tom61sto
    tom61sto Member Posts: 3,455 Arc User
    I would just stick to what you have now, as procs were effectively nerfed (though technically a fix) with Season 13 to being only per cycle, which makes the Coalition Disruptors a lot less powerful than they were at their height by drastically limiting how often they go off.

    Nowadays it's Terran Task Force Disruptor DHC (the Reputation project one) plus either Sensor-Linked Disruptors (which boost weapon Skill stats for all weapons) or Spiral Wave Disruptors (Innately higher damage) for high-end Disruptor cannon DPS. Post Tier 6 Reputation, Phaser seems to have taken over the top slot with Terran Task Force Phaser DHC, Prolonged Engagement DHC (Weekend Event item, builds Haste [rate of fire]), and Trilithium turret and two-set (Haste and a proc for more Haste).
  • alcaatraz
    alcaatraz Member Posts: 112 Arc User
    I use an approximation of the negative binomial for calculating expected chances for procs, which really means you can see how changing things works. I can give examples if you want (will need things like the number of weapons and the haste), but on average your looking at about 27s between per cycle proc events for sets of 8 weapons which all have the same proc.

    Coaldis is no longer the super used type, so you're not going to see a ton of procs. The more weapons in the run the more procs you see. The nice thing these had were they could stack across the team while normal disruptor types can only stack max once per the debuff type (nanite and normal / crafted dis are different procs, thus can affect the target at the same time, but if everyone uses crafted you can only get at most one proc on the target - it will refresh the duration if someone has it but it will not increase the -DRR magnitude).

    Since its fallen out of use, you're going to see lower performance, but much closer outcomes in both team and individual context. Most people pushing the max have moved to types with the raw damage (Spirals having an extra 15% Cat1 and an inbuilt Dmg mod) or ones with passives (such as Sensor Linked weapons).

    Nowadays I'd just suggest which ever type looks best to you.
    --- @alcaatraz || I make tanks and do crazy maths stuffs ---
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  • wideningxgyre
    wideningxgyre Member Posts: 690 Arc User
    Coalition: to target: 2.5% Chance: -20 Disruptor Resistance Rating for 30 sec (stacks up to 5 times)

    Pen: All attacks with this weapon ignore 10 Armor Rating

    With coalitions, what makes them is the proc - they were changed with Season 13 to occur with less frequency.

    I'd argue that you'd probably want to use Dual Cannons, not the DHC, to get more firing cycles if you are using coalitions.

    There's a bit of a misunderstanding here. You don't get "more cycles" with regular dual cannons but more shots per cycle. That gave them an edge on stuff that procced per shot but now that everything is standardised to proc per cycle regular DCs are pretty useless again.

    Personally I'd go for crafted [PEN] weapons for various reasons.
    -way easier and cheaper to get than those lockbox variants
    -easier to upgrade their quality since they come as MKII very rare
    -permanent attribute instead of a 2,5% chance per cycle
    -re-engineerable for a perfect mod setup

    And I actually re-read before I posted...

    Thanks for the correction. I had the notion of firing cycle so front of mind from the coal proc point I was making that I didn't even notice my error.

    Do you really think dual cannons are useless? Interesting. I'll have to play with it some more.
  • seaofsorrows
    seaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,893 Arc User
    Do you really think dual cannons are useless? Interesting. I'll have to play with it some more.

    Dual Cannons and Dual Heavy Cannons are effectively exactly the same right now. Removing the 'per shot' proc in place of 'per cycle' didn't make Dual Cannons suck, it just made them effectively the same as Dual Heavies. Use whichever you have, if you already have nice Dual Cannons, don't go and scrap them for DHC's.

    They're both good.
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  • alcaatraz
    alcaatraz Member Posts: 112 Arc User
    Do you really think dual cannons are useless? Interesting. I'll have to play with it some more.

    Dual Cannons and Dual Heavy Cannons are effectively exactly the same right now. Removing the 'per shot' proc in place of 'per cycle' didn't make Dual Cannons suck, it just made them effectively the same as Dual Heavies. Use whichever you have, if you already have nice Dual Cannons, don't go and scrap them for DHC's.

    They're both good.

    I like dual cannons. I think they flow better in combat, and the power management is generally less stressful. I think its worth noting that KLW is still per shot, and anything that has a chance to proc with a critical such as protonic is also per shot in the sense that each shot can critical.
    --- @alcaatraz || I make tanks and do crazy maths stuffs ---
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  • avoozuul
    avoozuul Member Posts: 3,012 Arc User
    edited November 2018
    I used to rock with antiproton with pen, but I eventually went and tried coalition with the Nausicaan set and the Terran beam array, I ended up giving my old antiproton set to my newest Cardassian toon. However I haven't made a cannon set with coalition yet.
  • salazarraze
    salazarraze Member Posts: 3,789 Arc User
    Do you really think dual cannons are useless? Interesting. I'll have to play with it some more.

    Dual Cannons and Dual Heavy Cannons are effectively exactly the same right now. Removing the 'per shot' proc in place of 'per cycle' didn't make Dual Cannons suck, it just made them effectively the same as Dual Heavies. Use whichever you have, if you already have nice Dual Cannons, don't go and scrap them for DHC's.

    They're both good.
    I notice that DC's make power management easier. Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe that DC's drain 10 power over 2 seconds instead of 12 power over just 1 second meaning that DHC's require a greater amount of EPS to function optimally. And since I'm not a number cruncher, I do better with regular DC's. I also noticed that the Uber DPS builds typically use DC's instead of DHC's when they can. With the exceptions being special weapons (Terran DHC) that only come in one specific version.

    Overall I agree that it's not worth scrapping one for the other for the vast majority of players. Though admittedly as I say this, I just finished building and upgrading a full set of DC's for all my characters over this weekend.
    When you see "TRIBBLE" in my posts, it's because I manually typed "TRIBBLE" and censored myself.
  • darkbladejk
    darkbladejk Member Posts: 3,306 Community Moderator
    If you like the thought of having coalitions then sure pick them up, otherwise if you've already got a decent set of dual cannons then save your EC and dilithium. as others have already pointed out there's very little difference in dual heavy vs standard dual cannons at the moment in terms of power. All procs are per cycle at the moment so you're either going to get the proc generally or you're not.

    There have always been classic arguments you can make in favor of either dual cannons or dual heavy cannons. dual cannons fire more shots per cycle on average for slightly less damage per bolt than a dual heavy. Dual heavies fire less shots per cycle, but for slightly more per bolt. Unless you're trying to go for stupid numbers it won't make that large of a difference save perhaps in the feel of the firing cycle.
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  • alcaatraz
    alcaatraz Member Posts: 112 Arc User
    Do you really think dual cannons are useless? Interesting. I'll have to play with it some more.

    Dual Cannons and Dual Heavy Cannons are effectively exactly the same right now. Removing the 'per shot' proc in place of 'per cycle' didn't make Dual Cannons suck, it just made them effectively the same as Dual Heavies. Use whichever you have, if you already have nice Dual Cannons, don't go and scrap them for DHC's.

    They're both good.
    I notice that DC's make power management easier. Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe that DC's drain 10 power over 2 seconds instead of 12 power over just 1 second meaning that DHC's require a greater amount of EPS to function optimally. And since I'm not a number cruncher, I do better with regular DC's. I also noticed that the Uber DPS builds typically use DC's instead of DHC's when they can. With the exceptions being special weapons (Terran DHC) that only come in one specific version.

    Overall I agree that it's not worth scrapping one for the other for the vast majority of players. Though admittedly as I say this, I just finished building and upgrading a full set of DC's for all my characters over this weekend.

    Weapons all drain their amount for the duration of them firing, but all start on the first shot. So a DC and a DHC will both start their drain at the same time. the DHC however will stop firing after 2s and then wait 3s before firing again. DCs will fire for 3s and then wait 2s. After the 2s/3s respectively the power will be returned to the system.

    What happens is that as soon your firing, if you have adequate EPS and Power (both in additional power above the system as well as power in the system, this is a bit of a grey area to try and describe without a lot of math and jargon, not sure if you want it) then EPS attempts to move power into the subsystem.

    So while yes DHCs will fire shorter, the power curve starts as soon as you start, so you need to take into account both the firing portion as well as the power reclaimed, since the weapon power is dynamic when it applies its damage multiplier.
    --- @alcaatraz || I make tanks and do crazy maths stuffs ---
    "I am the master of my fate: I am the captain of my soul."
  • seaofsorrows
    seaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,893 Arc User
    alcaatraz wrote: »
    I like dual cannons. I think they flow better in combat, and the power management is generally less stressful. I think its worth noting that KLW is still per shot, and anything that has a chance to proc with a critical such as protonic is also per shot in the sense that each shot can critical.

    I love Dual Cannons, I agree that they seem to flow a little better in combat. They don't seem to have as long of a distance between the next volley so it makes me feel like I am laying more consistent fire (rather that's actually true or not.) My general prefered setup with 5 fowards is 2 Dual Cannons (One of them Prolonged,) 2 Dual Heavies (Terran Taskforce for one) and the Phaser Quads. I just like the way that setup works, it seems to perform well for me.
    alcaatraz wrote: »
    What happens is that as soon your firing, if you have adequate EPS and Power (both in additional power above the system as well as power in the system, this is a bit of a grey area to try and describe without a lot of math and jargon, not sure if you want it) then EPS attempts to move power into the subsystem.

    So while yes DHCs will fire shorter, the power curve starts as soon as you start, so you need to take into account both the firing portion as well as the power reclaimed, since the weapon power is dynamic when it applies its damage multiplier.

    That's given me some stuff to think about, thanks for that. You really know your stuff! :smile:
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  • where2r1
    where2r1 Member Posts: 6,054 Arc User
    edited November 2018
    alcaatraz wrote: »

    What happens is that as soon your firing, if you have adequate EPS and Power (both in additional power above the system as well as power in the system, this is a bit of a grey area to try and describe without a lot of math and jargon, not sure if you want it) then EPS attempts to move power into the subsystem.

    Tell us the jargon and math part. Because right now, your words have no meaning. Once you have said the math part...it may not be clear to everyone, but it will clarify it for some others. And even more will ask questions and know TO ask. Then, you will know how to explain it to more people.

    Do you remember there used to be a TV show on You Tube called "STO'ked". They used math, graphs and charts to teach STO stuff. Don't separate it out from examples....if you KNOW the math. Show it to more people.
    "Spend your life doing strange things with weird people." -- UNK

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  • seaofsorrows
    seaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,893 Arc User
    where2r1 wrote: »
    alcaatraz wrote: »

    What happens is that as soon your firing, if you have adequate EPS and Power (both in additional power above the system as well as power in the system, this is a bit of a grey area to try and describe without a lot of math and jargon, not sure if you want it) then EPS attempts to move power into the subsystem.

    Tell us the jargon and math part. Because right now, your words have no meaning. Once you have said the math part...it may not be clear to everyone, but it will clarify it for some others. And even more will ask questions and know TO ask. Then, you will know how to explain it to more people.

    Do you remember there used to be a TV show on You Tube called "STO'ked". They used math, graphs and charts to teach STO stuff. Don't separate it out from examples....if you KNOW the math. Show it to more people.

    When asking someone for a favor, a little courtesy wouldn't kill you.

    Some of us know who he is, and if you followed the build reddit, you would know that his words do indeed have meaning. None the less, if you would like him to go into deeper detail, maybe throw a please in there? I don't know if you intended this post to be snide and demanding, but it sure reads that way.
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  • tunebreaker
    tunebreaker Member Posts: 1,222 Arc User
    where2r1 wrote: »
    alcaatraz wrote: »

    What happens is that as soon your firing, if you have adequate EPS and Power (both in additional power above the system as well as power in the system, this is a bit of a grey area to try and describe without a lot of math and jargon, not sure if you want it) then EPS attempts to move power into the subsystem.

    Tell us the jargon and math part. Because right now, your words have no meaning. Once you have said the math part...it may not be clear to everyone, but it will clarify it for some others. And even more will ask questions and know TO ask. Then, you will know how to explain it to more people.

    Do you remember there used to be a TV show on You Tube called "STO'ked". They used math, graphs and charts to teach STO stuff. Don't separate it out from examples....if you KNOW the math. Show it to more people.

    He already has done it.
    In case you're not aware yet, these forums here are not the far reaches of STOs knowledge, not even close to it.
  • salazarraze
    salazarraze Member Posts: 3,789 Arc User
    alcaatraz wrote: »
    Do you really think dual cannons are useless? Interesting. I'll have to play with it some more.

    Dual Cannons and Dual Heavy Cannons are effectively exactly the same right now. Removing the 'per shot' proc in place of 'per cycle' didn't make Dual Cannons suck, it just made them effectively the same as Dual Heavies. Use whichever you have, if you already have nice Dual Cannons, don't go and scrap them for DHC's.

    They're both good.
    I notice that DC's make power management easier. Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe that DC's drain 10 power over 2 seconds instead of 12 power over just 1 second meaning that DHC's require a greater amount of EPS to function optimally. And since I'm not a number cruncher, I do better with regular DC's. I also noticed that the Uber DPS builds typically use DC's instead of DHC's when they can. With the exceptions being special weapons (Terran DHC) that only come in one specific version.

    Overall I agree that it's not worth scrapping one for the other for the vast majority of players. Though admittedly as I say this, I just finished building and upgrading a full set of DC's for all my characters over this weekend.

    Weapons all drain their amount for the duration of them firing, but all start on the first shot. So a DC and a DHC will both start their drain at the same time. the DHC however will stop firing after 2s and then wait 3s before firing again. DCs will fire for 3s and then wait 2s. After the 2s/3s respectively the power will be returned to the system.

    What happens is that as soon your firing, if you have adequate EPS and Power (both in additional power above the system as well as power in the system, this is a bit of a grey area to try and describe without a lot of math and jargon, not sure if you want it) then EPS attempts to move power into the subsystem.

    So while yes DHCs will fire shorter, the power curve starts as soon as you start, so you need to take into account both the firing portion as well as the power reclaimed, since the weapon power is dynamic when it applies its damage multiplier.
    Wow this is great info! Thanks for explaining. Could you give us the run down for quad cannons as well?
    When you see "TRIBBLE" in my posts, it's because I manually typed "TRIBBLE" and censored myself.
  • alcaatraz
    alcaatraz Member Posts: 112 Arc User
    alcaatraz wrote: »
    Do you really think dual cannons are useless? Interesting. I'll have to play with it some more.

    Dual Cannons and Dual Heavy Cannons are effectively exactly the same right now. Removing the 'per shot' proc in place of 'per cycle' didn't make Dual Cannons suck, it just made them effectively the same as Dual Heavies. Use whichever you have, if you already have nice Dual Cannons, don't go and scrap them for DHC's.

    They're both good.
    I notice that DC's make power management easier. Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe that DC's drain 10 power over 2 seconds instead of 12 power over just 1 second meaning that DHC's require a greater amount of EPS to function optimally. And since I'm not a number cruncher, I do better with regular DC's. I also noticed that the Uber DPS builds typically use DC's instead of DHC's when they can. With the exceptions being special weapons (Terran DHC) that only come in one specific version.

    Overall I agree that it's not worth scrapping one for the other for the vast majority of players. Though admittedly as I say this, I just finished building and upgrading a full set of DC's for all my characters over this weekend.

    Weapons all drain their amount for the duration of them firing, but all start on the first shot. So a DC and a DHC will both start their drain at the same time. the DHC however will stop firing after 2s and then wait 3s before firing again. DCs will fire for 3s and then wait 2s. After the 2s/3s respectively the power will be returned to the system.

    What happens is that as soon your firing, if you have adequate EPS and Power (both in additional power above the system as well as power in the system, this is a bit of a grey area to try and describe without a lot of math and jargon, not sure if you want it) then EPS attempts to move power into the subsystem.

    So while yes DHCs will fire shorter, the power curve starts as soon as you start, so you need to take into account both the firing portion as well as the power reclaimed, since the weapon power is dynamic when it applies its damage multiplier.
    Wow this is great info! Thanks for explaining. Could you give us the run down for quad cannons as well?

    Quad Cannons, Single Cannons, and Turrets work just like Dual cannons in terms of their power curve, while Heavy Turrets look like DHCs in their curve. The only noticeable thing is that Quad Cannons additionally drain -10 Engine power while firing,

    This might be of some interest.
    --- @alcaatraz || I make tanks and do crazy maths stuffs ---
    "I am the master of my fate: I am the captain of my soul."
  • gaevsman
    gaevsman Member Posts: 3,181 Arc User
    Do you really think dual cannons are useless? Interesting. I'll have to play with it some more.

    Dual Cannons and Dual Heavy Cannons are effectively exactly the same right now. Removing the 'per shot' proc in place of 'per cycle' didn't make Dual Cannons suck, it just made them effectively the same as Dual Heavies. Use whichever you have, if you already have nice Dual Cannons, don't go and scrap them for DHC's.

    They're both good.

    Yeah, thats why i keep thinking they should lower DMG a little, but increase Arc...
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  • dracounguis
    dracounguis Member Posts: 5,363 Arc User
    If I got the maths right... :/
    8 weapons firing every 5 seconds w/ a proc chance of 2.5% should get you 2 procs per minute.
    Before the proc nerf when it was per shot you'd get 4 times that, for 8 ppm.

    And at endgame, if you have good dps; no basic mob will probably live long enough to get any proc'd debuff. So really weapon procs are only useful against 'bosses' now.
  • seaofsorrows
    seaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,893 Arc User
    If I got the maths right... :/
    8 weapons firing every 5 seconds w/ a proc chance of 2.5% should get you 2 procs per minute.
    Before the proc nerf when it was per shot you'd get 4 times that, for 8 ppm.

    And at endgame, if you have good dps; no basic mob will probably live long enough to get any proc'd debuff. So really weapon procs are only useful against 'bosses' now.

    While that's mostly true, don't forget that under 'optimal' conditions, 3 of those weapons will be your rear turrets since you can't have more then 5 cannons firing on one target. Still though, for basic mobs it's still very much true, the proc doesn't matter because everything melts from the pure damage anyway.
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  • alcaatraz
    alcaatraz Member Posts: 112 Arc User
    If I got the maths right... :/
    8 weapons firing every 5 seconds w/ a proc chance of 2.5% should get you 2 procs per minute.
    Before the proc nerf when it was per shot you'd get 4 times that, for 8 ppm.

    And at endgame, if you have good dps; no basic mob will probably live long enough to get any proc'd debuff. So really weapon procs are only useful against 'bosses' now.

    Assuming 5s cycles (no haste), you get the equation of:
    5/(1-(1-0.025)^[#Weapons])

    (This is the negative binomial I was talking about, but since this is just the general forum I didn't want to overload the thread with it)
    • 1 Weapon = Time of 200s, which is 0.3 PPM
    • 2 Weapons = Time of 101.266, which is 0.878 PPM
    • 3 Weapons = Time of 68.361, which is 1.139 PPM
    • 4 Weapons = Time of 51.915, which is 1.156 PPM
    • 5 Weapons = Time of 42.051, which is 1.427 PPM
    • 6 Weapons = Time of 35.478, which is 1.691 PPM
    • 7 Weapons = Time of 30.787, which is 1.949 PPM
    • 8 Weapons = Time of 27.271, which is 2.200 PPM

    So yes, its about 2 PPM. Hastes vastly effect this; for instance +25% haste (brings the cycle time to 4s), you get with 7 weapons an average expected time between procs as 21.816s (2.750 PPM):
    (5/1.25)/(1-(1-0.025)^8)

    Which is what you would expect to see. As you increase the cycle hastes, you get more rolls, so you should see an increase in the number of successful ones.
    If I got the maths right... :/
    8 weapons firing every 5 seconds w/ a proc chance of 2.5% should get you 2 procs per minute.
    Before the proc nerf when it was per shot you'd get 4 times that, for 8 ppm.

    And at endgame, if you have good dps; no basic mob will probably live long enough to get any proc'd debuff. So really weapon procs are only useful against 'bosses' now.

    While that's mostly true, don't forget that under 'optimal' conditions, 3 of those weapons will be your rear turrets since you can't have more then 5 cannons firing on one target. Still though, for basic mobs it's still very much true, the proc doesn't matter because everything melts from the pure damage anyway.

    Yeah that's the kicker for this, it only works for if all weapons are firing. This is also just an average; there will be times where you get two weapons to proc within the same cycle, and others which wont proc for a min. That's just how statistics work, and since we don't know how the RNG (or ever will) assigns numbers for procs the best we can do is this where we take an approximation.

    ---

    As a small sidenote, the full variant of this equation looks as such, where if you have a per shot proc (such as protonic polaron) then the number of shots is however many the weapon fires; for dual cannons this is 6, DHCs get 4, and these all change under weapon enhancements.
    --- @alcaatraz || I make tanks and do crazy maths stuffs ---
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  • bossheisenberg
    bossheisenberg Member Posts: 602 Arc User
    where2r1 wrote: »
    alcaatraz wrote: »

    What happens is that as soon your firing, if you have adequate EPS and Power (both in additional power above the system as well as power in the system, this is a bit of a grey area to try and describe without a lot of math and jargon, not sure if you want it) then EPS attempts to move power into the subsystem.

    Tell us the jargon and math part. Because right now, your words have no meaning. Once you have said the math part...it may not be clear to everyone, but it will clarify it for some others. And even more will ask questions and know TO ask. Then, you will know how to explain it to more people.

    Do you remember there used to be a TV show on You Tube called "STO'ked". They used math, graphs and charts to teach STO stuff. Don't separate it out from examples....if you KNOW the math. Show it to more people.

    I bet he has better things to do?
  • where2r1
    where2r1 Member Posts: 6,054 Arc User
    I am just encouraging him to talk the math part.
    Can't you tell....he loves the STO math and if it helps him explain things better.
    Don't hesitate, please do it.

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