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Star Trek Online's 2018/2019 Roadmap!

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  • khan5000khan5000 Member Posts: 3,007 Arc User
    No one is trying to force you to play it or pay for it. This is all entertainment. If you are not entertained don't force yourself to do things you don't like.


    -1000

    I very much disagree that they're trying to shove it down our throats. Playing the content is entirely optional.

    I distinctly remember from tuning into several Ten Forward weekly episodes that there were people whom were asking when we were getting Discovery story content and other stuff, especially when the first season was coming out. I was one of those people that wanted story content.

    Cryptic is simply treating Star Trek: Discovery like they would any other series, with the exception that it is a currently ongoing production and they are giving the focus that they wanted to give it for a while now. Besides, since they just ended a nearly 2 year long arc they started with "Echoes of Light," they figured there was no better time to start doing Discovery content then when they had nothing else to focus in on.

    Well then, you pay for it.
    Don't expect darthmeow504 or me, or anyone else who see this push to force STDiscontinuity into the game to do so. I am not giving Cryptic any more of my cash for this, just like darthmeow504 and many others from what I read here and elsewhere online.
    Your pain runs deep.
    Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
  • jexsamxjexsamx Member Posts: 2,802 Arc User
    edited October 2018
    No (Discovery) cannot go back in time and change what came before, neither can CBS.

    See, while you're right insofar as CBS cannot literally get into a time machine and go back to chance past Trek stuff, they can, if they so choose, simply say "that's not correct anymore, we've decided to change it."

    What's seen on screen is hard canon, and what's most recent takes precedence. Where new canon contradicts old, old is no longer considered canon. This isn't that complicated a system.
  • jexsamxjexsamx Member Posts: 2,802 Arc User
    edited October 2018
    I do not adhere to the silly idea of "canon"

    For someone that doesn't adhere to canon, you sure like complaining about it a lot.

    Like, your whole premise is that old Trek is canon. You believe in canon so fiercely that you insist on referring to Discovery as "Discontinuity". You can't tell me you don't adhere to the idea of canon because it's your entire argument.
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,231 Arc User
    khan5000 wrote: »
    Playable DSC Klingons, Andorians, Tellarites, That one robo girl on the Bridge, saurian...
    It's just a matter of them finding the audience for a playable DSC Klingon experience.

    As for Andorians and Tellarites, I believe they want to put those species into the Discovery side, it's just a matter of them finding the time for them to be added. They can't do everything at once with the amount of people they have to work on the game.
    Yeah, people really need to SHOW Cryptic how much they want more KDF stuff.
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
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  • vegeta50024vegeta50024 Member Posts: 2,335 Arc User

    -1000

    I very much disagree that they're trying to shove it down our throats. Playing the content is entirely optional.

    I distinctly remember from tuning into several Ten Forward weekly episodes that there were people whom were asking when we were getting Discovery story content and other stuff, especially when the first season was coming out. I was one of those people that wanted story content.

    Cryptic is simply treating Star Trek: Discovery like they would any other series, with the exception that it is a currently ongoing production and they are giving the focus that they wanted to give it for a while now. Besides, since they just ended a nearly 2 year long arc they started with "Echoes of Light," they figured there was no better time to start doing Discovery content then when they had nothing else to focus in on.

    Well then, you pay for it.
    Don't expect darthmeow504 or me, or anyone else who see this push to force STDiscontinuity into the game to do so. I am not giving Cryptic any more of my cash for this, just like darthmeow504 and many others from what I read here and elsewhere online.

    Now you are outright saying stuff which I frankly haven't even implied I paid for it. I have not paid one cent in this game. If I could though, I'd pay for the content 100 times over if it meant that it would help them get stuff out faster.

    I don't know if you honestly realize this, but if you put any money at all towards the game probably within the time that VIL was announced, you were likely putting money towards them being able to develop the discovery content, if not putting money towards paying for the costs of what it took to develop VIL.


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  • duncanidaho11duncanidaho11 Member Posts: 7,867 Arc User
    jexsamx wrote: »
    What's seen on screen is hard canon, and what's most recent takes precedence. Where new canon contradicts old, old is no longer considered canon. This isn't that complicated a system.

    See. the various relationships the Klingons have with the Federation during the first season of TNG. Statements like them joining the FED are hand-waved later as not being true to the actual relationship of a completely independent, and occasionally antagonistic, faction. Why? Later clarifications established new canon. This is pretty basic to how the shows worked, building an increasingly detailed picture of what life was like in the future though successive statements, episodes, and series. However, not every turn resulted in positive things for the setting, characters, and plot of future episodes. So, these elements were either set aside (ex. being able to cure a disease by reloading a "previous saved state" from the transporter) or explicitly retconned (there was an NX-01 Enterprise.)
    Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
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  • duncanidaho11duncanidaho11 Member Posts: 7,867 Arc User
    edited October 2018

    For all we know, Cryptic might be in the red right now. They've lost a "whale" like me (and who knows how many others)

    Speculation isn't going to somehow materialize into a concrete point by passing it around a few times, however. For all we know they're doing quite well and for every "I quit" posts of the forums they may be taking in many more new players who're more attached to Discovery than other iterations of the franchise (being of the current moment and for young people of their generation.) Cryptic knows and you don't really gain a whole lot by guessing the correct answer because, well, you're not telling them anything that they don't already know and there's no way we can hide our "analyses" from being just guesses. For that strategic non-gain (leaving the argument exactly where it was) you risk guessing incorrectly (across multiple dimensions of this problem) and making a case easier to dismiss by devs and community members alike as simply off-base or, at worst, self-serving doom-saying.

    So, just stick with topical discussion and stuff the "what losing a single whale means" as an irreconcilable issue for which we have no data. We don't know, we don't need to figure it out, and there's not much to say about the entire scenario besides "maybe something, maybe nothing." If there is a problem then you can expect to see Cryptic adjust focus with the latter parts of AoD [content is already well into development with earlier parts, there's no changing that.] If not, it'll remain something they pull from for the foreseeable future (just like every other part of the [CBS] franchise.)
    Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
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  • tousseautousseau Member Posts: 1,484 Arc User
    Still waiting for Dsc Andorians... I have enjoyed what has come out so far, but just isn't the same for me... The T'Son lineage needs it's representation during this time period...
  • anyajenkinsanyajenkins Member Posts: 56 Arc User
    For all we know they're doing quite well and for every "I quit" posts of the forums they may be taking in many more new players who're more attached to Discovery than other iterations of the franchise (being of the current moment and for young people of their generation.)

    Sure that young generation of young people, like 16 to 20 i presume, will spend 200$ or more on a 10 year old mmo. this part of the audience has no money, it's not a good move.
    coffee the finest organic suspension ever devised - Janeway
  • duncanidaho11duncanidaho11 Member Posts: 7,867 Arc User
    tousseau wrote: »
    Still waiting for Dsc Andorians... I have enjoyed what has come out so far, but just isn't the same for me... The T'Son lineage needs it's representation during this time period...

    It's something Cryptic is working on, either as a playable species added to the DSC starter experience or as parts unlocked for existing Andorians. Timetable: not immediately but around the 2nd part of AOD is a reasonable guess.
    Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
    Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
    Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
  • pottsey5gpottsey5g Member Posts: 4,165 Arc User
    edited October 2018
    azrael605 wrote: »
    > @kabutotokugawa said:
    > jexsamx wrote: »
    >
    > kabutotokugawa wrote: »
    >
    > No (Discovery) cannot go back in time and change what came before, neither can CBS.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > See, while you're right insofar as CBS cannot literally get into a time machine and go back to chance past Trek stuff, they can, if they so choose, simply say "that's not correct anymore, we've decided to change it."
    >
    > What's seen on screen is hard canon, and what's most recent takes precedence. Where new canon contradicts old, old is no longer considered canon. This isn't that complicated a system.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Nonsense. This is why I do not adhere to the silly idea of "canon" because it is an attempt by corporations to try and erase what came before so as it will not compete with what they are attempting to produce at the moment. It's post-modernist garbage that I simply do not respect. What came before is now set in stone and no one, not even CBS, can erase it. It is a done deal as the saying goes.

    Reality, and the plain fact that every Trek series has retconned what came before, disagrees with you. The funniest part is that once again these are verbatim the exact same complaints that were vomited up when TNG came out.
    While I am not always keen on retcons its not that uncommon and sometimes is good. Plenty of other Sci Fi shows have done the same thing. When dealing with a show over a 30+ or 50+ year life span at multiple points you need to modernise the show. Discovery without retcons would just not work, there are things in TOS that are outdated in real life now and if those things would be missing from Discovery when we have them in real life then Discovery would just feel wrong and outdated. Discovery needed to move with the times.

    With Discovery I am not keen on the Klingons but all the other retcons go with the flow and do not bother me. Star Trek has never had that most consistent story in the first place. Throughout all of Star Treks life they have changed things to fit the story being told.
  • crypticarmsmancrypticarmsman Member Posts: 4,102 Arc User
    jexsamx wrote: »
    No (Discovery) cannot go back in time and change what came before, neither can CBS.

    See, while you're right insofar as CBS cannot literally get into a time machine and go back to chance past Trek stuff, they can, if they so choose, simply say "that's not correct anymore, we've decided to change it."

    What's seen on screen is hard canon, and what's most recent takes precedence. Where new canon contradicts old, old is no longer considered canon. This isn't that complicated a system.
    ^^^
    Very true - like how in 1987 - TNG/DS9/VOY retconned A LOT of Federation aspects described during TOS run. (All with the full approval of Paramount. Welcome to anytime a new Star trek series goes into production.
    Formerly known as Armsman from June 2008 to June 20, 2012
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  • baddmoonrizinbaddmoonrizin Member Posts: 10,247 Community Moderator
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  • trygvar13trygvar13 Member Posts: 697 Arc User
    saedeith wrote: »
    robeasom wrote: »
    So it seems Discovery is going to be the main thing for 2019. That's fine by me. As long as I have the option to skip it then I am happy to ignore the existence of the content. However I am a little annoyed that there is little to no content being released for people who like Classic trek in terms of TOS, TNG DS9, Voy etc. This is meant to be Star Trek online not TRIBBLE online.

    Folks may not like it (I don't) but Discovery is Star Trek. This is Star Trek Online, not Star Trek TOS Online, ect. It makes sense they are concentrating on a current show.

    Discovery may be a lot of things (none of them good) but one thing it is most definitely not is Star Trek. You can put a Rolls Royce sticker on a Chevrolet Chevette but it will always remain nothing but a Chevette.
    Dahar Master Qor'aS
  • phoenixc#0738 phoenixc Member Posts: 5,459 Arc User
    tousseau wrote: »
    Still waiting for Dsc Andorians... I have enjoyed what has come out so far, but just isn't the same for me... The T'Son lineage needs it's representation during this time period...

    DSC Andorians are pretty generic, you should be able to make one with the "alien" race type and lowered effect intensity of one of the other masks. I know they have Andorian antennae in the alien customization though of course not as many as the specific one. It might be possible to make one using an "old" face type too, the lines of the DSC makeup look a bit like age lines at a lower resolution and the difference might be too subtle to see in the live play areas.

    The limited face customization in the specific race categories actually makes it somewhat difficult to make an accurate TOS version too (the bone structure is way off for instance, TOS did a good job of finding people with unusual faces for them and STO did not include the type in the base models) so I understand the frustration.


    Personally I do not see what the draw is, the original triangular faced "too smooth to be human" vaguely anime look from TOS was the best I think though the ENT versions are not bad either, but everyone has their own preferences. Gluing on more rubber to the faces actually makes them less distinctive, not more unfortunately, but DSC always had that "trowel it on" style.
  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,963 Arc User
    Well, there is now a Star Trek comedy cartoon series in the works. I think fans will find it ever harder to really integrate everything under the umbrella of one consistent canon.

    I am honestly not sure I am ready for a comedy take on Star Trek within the IP itself for that reason. But maybe it will be a good think and help make people accept that they can love Star Trek even if they don't like all of it, and that they can live with not everything in Star Trek suiting their preferences and still be popular with other people.
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  • crypticarmsmancrypticarmsman Member Posts: 4,102 Arc User
    Well, there is now a Star Trek comedy cartoon series in the works. I think fans will find it ever harder to really integrate everything under the umbrella of one consistent canon.

    I am honestly not sure I am ready for a comedy take on Star Trek within the IP itself for that reason. But maybe it will be a good think and help make people accept that they can love Star Trek even if they don't like all of it, and that they can live with not everything in Star Trek suiting their preferences and still be popular with other people.
    As Star Trek 'canon' has never been consistent from day one - how does this change anything?
    (And no, there no one Star Trek series from TOS to ST: D that has been more 'canon consistent' than another - they all go off the rails about equally depending on the episode's needs")
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  • crypticarmsmancrypticarmsman Member Posts: 4,102 Arc User
    No, they are not verbatim the same complaints about ST:TNG. Not sure why you keep parroting that fallacy. The complaints about ST:TNG centered around the ship being the "Love Boat" complete with it being commanded by its own Captain Stubing.
    The reason is because of the mission of the Galaxy class and a Klingon being part of the crew. The aesthetic was quickly accepted by the fanbase, especially with Excelsior class, Miranda class, Klingon K'Tingas, and Klingon BoPs being in the show that were accurate for the established aesthetic of Star Trek. The only uniform complaint that had any traction was the stupid ST:TNG dress usable for both sexes. It was stupid, and is still stupid on a spacecraft (yes the miniskirts of ST:TOS were also dumb, that's one thing DIScontintuity actually gets correct).

    ORLY?
    Here's a photo of an article regarding TNG and it's announcement:
    rrMVJg3.jpg
    ^^^
    Seems I hear a lot of the same complaints about ST: D IE:

    - Previous Trek has something 'special' ST: D can't match
    - ST: D somehow throws everything previous Trek had out

    etc.
    Formerly known as Armsman from June 2008 to June 20, 2012
    TOS_Connie_Sig_final9550Pop.jpg
    PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
  • shpoksshpoks Member Posts: 6,967 Arc User
    edited October 2018
    WfSVvDn.png
    Post edited by baddmoonrizin on
    HQroeLu.jpg
  • phoenixc#0738 phoenixc Member Posts: 5,459 Arc User
    edited October 2018
    jexsamx wrote: »
    No (Discovery) cannot go back in time and change what came before, neither can CBS.

    See, while you're right insofar as CBS cannot literally get into a time machine and go back to chance past Trek stuff, they can, if they so choose, simply say "that's not correct anymore, we've decided to change it."

    What's seen on screen is hard canon, and what's most recent takes precedence. Where new canon contradicts old, old is no longer considered canon. This isn't that complicated a system.
    ^^^
    Very true - like how in 1987 - TNG/DS9/VOY retconned A LOT of Federation aspects described during TOS run. (All with the full approval of Paramount. Welcome to anytime a new Star trek series goes into production.

    Most of that is not "retcon", it is how things changed over time. For example the TOS Enterprise was an old design, and like a WWII battleship refurbished and upgraded today look different from the newly build ships that use a different aesthetic, the TOS Enterprise most likely looked different from the more "modern" ships. When they completely rebuilt the ship in 2273 they built it to the light and airy, thin skinned instead of armored, window festooned aesthetic that was the norm by that time.

    Remember, Kirk got lost trying to find his way to the bridge which would not have happened if the TOS ship was simply the TMP one the way a retcon would have made it, as well as all the dialog about how different it looked (especially in the pod flyaround).


    pottsey5g wrote: »
    azrael605 wrote: »
    > @kabutotokugawa said:
    > jexsamx wrote: »
    >
    > kabutotokugawa wrote: »
    >
    > No (Discovery) cannot go back in time and change what came before, neither can CBS.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > See, while you're right insofar as CBS cannot literally get into a time machine and go back to chance past Trek stuff, they can, if they so choose, simply say "that's not correct anymore, we've decided to change it."
    >
    > What's seen on screen is hard canon, and what's most recent takes precedence. Where new canon contradicts old, old is no longer considered canon. This isn't that complicated a system.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Nonsense. This is why I do not adhere to the silly idea of "canon" because it is an attempt by corporations to try and erase what came before so as it will not compete with what they are attempting to produce at the moment. It's post-modernist garbage that I simply do not respect. What came before is now set in stone and no one, not even CBS, can erase it. It is a done deal as the saying goes.

    Reality, and the plain fact that every Trek series has retconned what came before, disagrees with you. The funniest part is that once again these are verbatim the exact same complaints that were vomited up when TNG came out.
    While I am not always keen on retcons its not that uncommon and sometimes is good. Plenty of other Sci Fi shows have done the same thing. When dealing with a show over a 30+ or 50+ year life span at multiple points you need to modernise the show. Discovery without retcons would just not work, there are things in TOS that are outdated in real life now and if those things would be missing from Discovery when we have them in real life then Discovery would just feel wrong and outdated. Discovery needed to move with the times.

    With Discovery I am not keen on the Klingons but all the other retcons go with the flow and do not bother me. Star Trek has never had that most consistent story in the first place. Throughout all of Star Treks life they have changed things to fit the story being told.

    There is modernization and then there are changes just for the sake of changes, and DSC uses far too many of the latter. Modernization would have been great if they had actually done it instead of trashing it. The set designer even talks about how they mostly ignored TOS and the era they were supposed to be doing and loosely based their designs on the "Undiscovered Country" esthetics instead.

    For instance the TOS bridge was built with ergonomics in mind (they actually had cardboard mockups made to make sure controls were properly placed within reach and things like the overhead screens were clearly visible without strain and everyone had seats for safety and the fact that after a few hours of standing people on watch tend to move around and pay less attention to their stations than they should, while it is too obvious that DSC used nothing but the current impractical Hollywood sci-fi fads like stand-up stations, poor viewing angles, and lights placed where they do little but cause glare.

    If you look very closely at high resolution pictures of the bridge you can see that a semicircle of the surface of each station is smoother and shinier than the surrounding flat surface. It is a heavy, dark glass insert and the panels were supposed to light up with context-sensitive labels, readouts and touch-screen controls (though they did not call it that back then) but it turns out that the transparencies that made that possible would start to burn in only twenty seconds after they were lit up so they left the panels dark and added a few more sections of the solid-state "jewel buttons" which used a perforated metal baffle instead of the flammable cells.

    After the network made them increase the lighting level on the bridge for the series (they said the Cage bridge was too dark) they also had a problem with burning slides in the unbroken lines of big rear-projection screens over the bridge stations, so they had to put those big bezels up to cover most of the area and shrink the screens down so you could see them over the brighter lighting for TOS. Using the setup Cage had with big modern electronic screens (like those they use lower down in the current sets) would have given an even more impressive view than the big windows and glass floor panels on Shenzhou or the single big window on the Discovery itself, and they could have done them with the same greenscreen trick they used for the JJwindows if they did not want to go the electronic route.

    The way that fashion has come full circle and miniskirts and rich shimmery velvet are back "in", TOS uniforms are actually closer to modern than those cheesy 1980s style semi-Nehru-collared quasi-bedazzled double-knit disasters Discovery uses. All it would have taken would have been a slight update of the cut and real velvet in richer shades than the originals to update them to an actually fashionable look. For that mater, they could have used the DSC ones along with a few updated TOS ones seen on other ships or bases and it would have maintained continuity with the original while adding more depth by showing Starfleet had different divisions instead of the big monolithic agency it is shown as in later times.

    Some examples of where they actually DID update the look instead of trashing it and going for generic are the handheld props and the shuttles (the design of the DSC shuttle is kind of halfway between the TOS designed version and the one they could afford to build mashed together and genericized). There are a lot of pictures of the original design here: https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/matt-jefferies-original-shuttle-design.78081/page-12

    Too many people look at the low production values of the time and mistake it for the design aesthetics instead of the best they could do with their budget and available production technology.

  • smokebaileysmokebailey Member Posts: 4,659 Arc User
    jexsamx wrote: »
    No (Discovery) cannot go back in time and change what came before, neither can CBS.

    See, while you're right insofar as CBS cannot literally get into a time machine and go back to chance past Trek stuff, they can, if they so choose, simply say "that's not correct anymore, we've decided to change it."

    What's seen on screen is hard canon, and what's most recent takes precedence. Where new canon contradicts old, old is no longer considered canon. This isn't that complicated a system.
    ^^^
    Very true - like how in 1987 - TNG/DS9/VOY retconned A LOT of Federation aspects described during TOS run. (All with the full approval of Paramount. Welcome to anytime a new Star trek series goes into production.

    Most of that is not "retcon", it is how things changed over time. For example the TOS Enterprise was an old design, and like a WWII battleship refurbished and upgraded today look different from the newly build ships that use a different aesthetic, the TOS Enterprise most likely looked different from the more "modern" ships. When they completely rebuilt the ship in 2273 they built it to the light and airy, thin skinned instead of armored, window festooned aesthetic that was the norm by that time.

    Remember, Kirk got lost trying to find his way to the bridge which would not have happened if the TOS ship was simply the TMP one the way a retcon would have made it, as well as all the dialog about how different it looked (especially in the pod flyaround).


    pottsey5g wrote: »
    azrael605 wrote: »
    > @kabutotokugawa said:
    > jexsamx wrote: »
    >
    > kabutotokugawa wrote: »
    >
    > No (Discovery) cannot go back in time and change what came before, neither can CBS.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > See, while you're right insofar as CBS cannot literally get into a time machine and go back to chance past Trek stuff, they can, if they so choose, simply say "that's not correct anymore, we've decided to change it."
    >
    > What's seen on screen is hard canon, and what's most recent takes precedence. Where new canon contradicts old, old is no longer considered canon. This isn't that complicated a system.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Nonsense. This is why I do not adhere to the silly idea of "canon" because it is an attempt by corporations to try and erase what came before so as it will not compete with what they are attempting to produce at the moment. It's post-modernist garbage that I simply do not respect. What came before is now set in stone and no one, not even CBS, can erase it. It is a done deal as the saying goes.

    Reality, and the plain fact that every Trek series has retconned what came before, disagrees with you. The funniest part is that once again these are verbatim the exact same complaints that were vomited up when TNG came out.
    While I am not always keen on retcons its not that uncommon and sometimes is good. Plenty of other Sci Fi shows have done the same thing. When dealing with a show over a 30+ or 50+ year life span at multiple points you need to modernise the show. Discovery without retcons would just not work, there are things in TOS that are outdated in real life now and if those things would be missing from Discovery when we have them in real life then Discovery would just feel wrong and outdated. Discovery needed to move with the times.

    With Discovery I am not keen on the Klingons but all the other retcons go with the flow and do not bother me. Star Trek has never had that most consistent story in the first place. Throughout all of Star Treks life they have changed things to fit the story being told.

    There is modernization and then there are changes just for the sake of changes, and DSC uses far too many of the latter. Modernization would have been great if they had actually done it instead of trashing it. The set designer even talks about how they mostly ignored TOS and the era they were supposed to be doing and loosely based their designs on the "Undiscovered Country" esthetics instead.

    For instance the TOS bridge was built with ergonomics in mind (they actually had cardboard mockups made to make sure controls were properly placed within reach and things like the overhead screens were clearly visible without strain and everyone had seats for safety and the fact that after a few hours of standing people on watch tend to move around and pay less attention to their stations than they should, while it is too obvious that DSC used nothing but the current impractical Hollywood sci-fi fads like stand-up stations, poor viewing angles, and lights placed where they do little but cause glare.

    If you look very closely at high resolution pictures of the bridge you can see that a semicircle of the surface of each station is smoother and shinier than the surrounding flat surface. It is a heavy, dark glass insert and the panels were supposed to light up with context-sensitive labels, readouts and touch-screen controls (though they did not call it that back then) but it turns out that the transparencies that made that possible would start to burn in only twenty seconds after they were lit up so they left the panels dark and added a few more sections of the solid-state "jewel buttons" which used a perforated metal baffle instead of the flammable cells.

    After the network made them increase the lighting level on the bridge for the series (they said the Cage bridge was too dark) they also had a problem with burning slides in the unbroken lines of big rear-projection screens over the bridge stations, so they had to put those big bezels up to cover most of the area and shrink the screens down so you could see them over the brighter lighting for TOS. Using the setup Cage had with big modern electronic screens (like those they use lower down in the current sets) would have given an even more impressive view than the big windows and glass floor panels on Shenzhou or the single big window on the Discovery itself, and they could have done them with the same greenscreen trick they used for the JJwindows if they did not want to go the electronic route.

    The way that fashion has come full circle and miniskirts and rich shimmery velvet are back "in", TOS uniforms are actually closer to modern than those cheesy 1980s style semi-Nehru-collared quasi-bedazzled double-knit disasters Discovery uses. All it would have taken would have been a slight update of the cut and real velvet in richer shades than the originals to update them to an actually fashionable look. For that mater, they could have used the DSC ones along with a few updated TOS ones seen on other ships or bases and it would have maintained continuity with the original while adding more depth by showing Starfleet had different divisions instead of the big monolithic agency it is shown as in later times.

    Some examples of where they actually DID update the look instead of trashing it and going for generic are the handheld props and the shuttles (the design of the DSC shuttle is kind of halfway between the TOS designed version and the one they could afford to build mashed together and genericized). There are a lot of pictures of the original design here: https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/matt-jefferies-original-shuttle-design.78081/page-12

    Too many people look at the low production values of the time and mistake it for the design aesthetics instead of the best they could do with their budget and available production technology.

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  • crypticarmsmancrypticarmsman Member Posts: 4,102 Arc User
    jexsamx wrote: »
    No (Discovery) cannot go back in time and change what came before, neither can CBS.

    See, while you're right insofar as CBS cannot literally get into a time machine and go back to chance past Trek stuff, they can, if they so choose, simply say "that's not correct anymore, we've decided to change it."

    What's seen on screen is hard canon, and what's most recent takes precedence. Where new canon contradicts old, old is no longer considered canon. This isn't that complicated a system.
    ^^^
    Very true - like how in 1987 - TNG/DS9/VOY retconned A LOT of Federation aspects described during TOS run. (All with the full approval of Paramount. Welcome to anytime a new Star trek series goes into production.

    Most of that is not "retcon", it is how things changed over time. For example the TOS Enterprise was an old design, and like a WWII battleship refurbished and upgraded today look different from the newly build ships that use a different aesthetic, the TOS Enterprise most likely looked different from the more "modern" ships. When they completely rebuilt the ship in 2273 they built it to the light and airy, thin skinned instead of armored, window festooned aesthetic that was the norm by that time.

    Remember, Kirk got lost trying to find his way to the bridge which would not have happened if the TOS ship was simply the TMP one the way a retcon would have made it, as well as all the dialog about how different it looked (especially in the pod flyaround).

    I'm not talking about the ship. I'm talking about things like the retcon to the Prime Directive. In TOS it was only in effect if the culture was non-spacefaring or didn't know about life on other worlds. If a world was spacefaring OR still primative, BUT know about life on other worlds (either through previous contact before the PD went into effect (like the situation caused by the U>S.S. Horizon on Sigma Iotia II (see TOS - "A Piece of the Action"); or they had contact by other aliens like on Capella IV (see TOS - "Friday's Child").

    With TNG the Prime Directive suddenly became: "No interference with non-member worlds regardless of technical or societal progess."

    Also, in TOS member worlds were NOT required to adopt 100% Earth/Federation ways. In TOS a Federation tenant was: "Ypour world will remain yours..." (again see TOS - Friday's Child"); and there were PLENTY of Federation member worlds who still has Capital Punishment and Slavery (See TOS - "The Cloud Minders") Or Deb V (see TOS - "I Mudd") and here's a snippet:
    KIRK: Yes. Who caught you?

    MUDD: I sold the Denebians all the rights to a Vulcan fuel synthesiser.

    KIRK: And the Denebians contacted the Vulcans.

    MUDD: How'd you know?

    KIRK: That's what I would have done.

    MUDD: It's typical police mentality. They've got no sense of humour. They arrested me.

    MCCOY: Oh, I find that shocking.

    MUDD: Worse than that. Do know what the penalty for fraud is on Deneb Five?

    SPOCK: The guilty party has his choice. Death by electrocution, death by gas, death by phaser, death by hanging...

    MUDD: The key word in your entire peroration, Mister Spock, was, death. Barbarians. Well, of course, I left.

    Hell, Picard often gave Worf a dressing down because Worf had the audacity to follow Klingon Societal Tradition (See TNG "Reunion"). Picard seemed about ready to throw him off the ship:
    PICARD: Mister Worf, your service aboard the Enterprise has been exemplary. Until now.

    WORF: Sir, I have acted within the boundaries of Klingon law and tradition.

    PICARD: The High Council would seem to agree. They consider the matter closed. I don't. Mister Worf, the Enterprise crew currently includes representatives from thirteen planets. They each have their individual beliefs and values and I respect them all. But they have all chosen to serve Starfleet. If anyone cannot perform his or her duty because of the demands of their society, they should resign. Do you wish to resign?

    WORF: No, sir.

    PICARD: I had hoped you would not throw away a promising career. I understand your loss, We all admired K'Ehleyr. A reprimand will appear on your record. Dismissed. Mister Worf, isn't it time for the truth about your father's innocence to be told? After all, you only accepted this dishonor to protect the name of Duras and hold the Empire together. Now that he has died in disgrace, what is gained by further silence?

    WORF: Each member of the Klingon High Council has shared in that lie. They will not be so willing to admit their own dishonor. But the day will come when my brother and I will convince them to speak the truth.

    So yeah, suddenly with TNG the Federation pretty much required member worlds (or others serving from alien societies) to 100% subvert/realign their societal norms and assimilate into the 'Federation' way. Again, this WAS NOT the case during TOS timframe and WAS a pretty major retcon.


    TLDR: TNG retconned a lot more than just the ships or other visual aesthetics
    Formerly known as Armsman from June 2008 to June 20, 2012
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  • crypticarmsmancrypticarmsman Member Posts: 4,102 Arc User
    edited October 2018
    jexsamx wrote: »
    No (Discovery) cannot go back in time and change what came before, neither can CBS.

    See, while you're right insofar as CBS cannot literally get into a time machine and go back to chance past Trek stuff, they can, if they so choose, simply say "that's not correct anymore, we've decided to change it."

    What's seen on screen is hard canon, and what's most recent takes precedence. Where new canon contradicts old, old is no longer considered canon. This isn't that complicated a system.
    ^^^
    Very true - like how in 1987 - TNG/DS9/VOY retconned A LOT of Federation aspects described during TOS run. (All with the full approval of Paramount. Welcome to anytime a new Star trek series goes into production.

    Most of that is not "retcon", it is how things changed over time. For example the TOS Enterprise was an old design, and like a WWII battleship refurbished and upgraded today look different from the newly build ships that use a different aesthetic, the TOS Enterprise most likely looked different from the more "modern" ships. When they completely rebuilt the ship in 2273 they built it to the light and airy, thin skinned instead of armored, window festooned aesthetic that was the norm by that time.

    Remember, Kirk got lost trying to find his way to the bridge which would not have happened if the TOS ship was simply the TMP one the way a retcon would have made it, as well as all the dialog about how different it looked (especially in the pod flyaround).

    I'm not talking about aesthetic retcons. TNG retconned some major tenets of the Federation from TOS era.

    During TOS era, the Prime Directive only applied if the culture in question was not space faring and had no knowledge of life on other worlds. If the culture was space faring OR did have knowledge of life of other worlds due to contact prior to the time the Prime Directive went into effect - like the situation on Sigma Iotia II caused by the U.S.S. Horizon (See TOS - "A Piece Of The Action") OR contact by other aliens per the situation on Capella IV(See TOS - Friday's Child") the Prime Directive DIDN'T apply.

    In TNG era the prime Directive was retconned to essentially be; "No interference with Non-Federation worlds."

    Also, in the TOS era, the Federation allowed a world to KEEP its societal norms:

    Kirk: "Your world is yours and will remain yours..." (again see TOS - "Friday's Child")

    And again, in TOS era there were a number of worlds that maintained effective slavery like Ardana (see TOS - "The Cloud Minders"); and maintained capital punishment for lesser crimes like Deneb V (see TOS - "I Mudd"). Here's a snippet:
    KIRK: Yes. Who caught you?

    MUDD: I sold the Denebians all the rights to a Vulcan fuel synthesizer.

    KIRK: And the Denebians contacted the Vulcans.

    MUDD: How'd you know?

    KIRK: That's what I would have done.

    MUDD: It's typical police mentality. They've got no sense of humor. They arrested me.

    MCCOY: Oh, I find that shocking.

    MUDD: Worse than that. Do know what the penalty for fraud is on Deneb Five?

    SPOCK: The guilty party has his choice. Death by electrocution, death by gas, death by phaser, death by hanging...


    MUDD: The key word in your entire peroration, Mister Spock, was, death. Barbarians. Well, of course, I left.

    By TNG era, any world wishing for membership had to assimilate to 'Federation norms' (Hell, that was a running theme in Ds9 regarding teh admission of Bajor) and it seems the Federation also demanded that from anyone serving in Starfleet. Hell Picard gave Worf a dressing down BECAUSE Worf decided to FOLLOW Klingon societal traditions/norms; but Picard was about ready to throw him off the ship (See TNG "Reunion"). Again, a snippet:
    PICARD: Mister Worf, your service aboard the Enterprise has been exemplary. Until now.

    WORF: Sir, I have acted within the boundaries of Klingon law and tradition.


    PICARD: The High Council would seem to agree. They consider the matter closed. I don't. Mister Worf, the Enterprise crew currently includes representatives from thirteen planets. They each have their individual beliefs and values and I respect them all. But they have all chosen to serve Starfleet. If anyone cannot perform his or her duty because of the demands of their society, they should resign. Do you wish to resign?


    WORF: No, sir.

    PICARD: I had hoped you would not throw away a promising career. I understand your loss, We all admired K'Ehleyr. A reprimand will appear on your record. Dismissed. Mister Worf, isn't it time for the truth about your father's innocence to be told? After all, you only accepted this dishonor to protect the name of Duras and hold the Empire together. Now that he has died in disgrace, what is gained by further silence?

    WORF: Each member of the Klingon High Council has shared in that lie. They will not be so willing to admit their own dishonor. But the day will come when my brother and I will convince them to speak the truth.

    There are more examples but I don't want to spend all day typing here.

    So yeah, TNG retconned a lot more than just some ship visual and deign aesthetics.
    Formerly known as Armsman from June 2008 to June 20, 2012
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    PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
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