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Where STO is headed

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  • duncanidaho11duncanidaho11 Member Posts: 7,624 Arc User
    edited October 2018
    patrickngo wrote: »
    which coincides also with the incomplete and rushed material released for AoD-the need to basically re-skin the original Fed tutorial with Discovery textures (even keeping most of the dialogue?) certainly fits this theory, as does the persistent spawning bug in the Starbase One queue )

    Have to call BS on this one, the DSC tutorial was not a texture reskin. The VO, environments, cutscenes, and mission objectives were all newly created. It played to the same story beats but this is not to be confused with a mission that was mechanically recycled. It was effectively rebuilt from scratch to tell the same story in a different setting as a creative choice. And taking Secrets as the other full mission, that's double what we usually get with a season launch with Starbase One filling the customary new queue. Add to that, two system revamps (random TFO's and the journal update), the mere fact of an alt starting experience (any added playable species options take a lot of time to code on the back end, we got three), and note that this is all launching in a release window that is customary for the first big update following an expansion. Did you expect that, against all precedent, ViL was just going to continue for extra seasons beyond the expansion? This arc started way back in season 12! It's high time to move on.
    Post edited by duncanidaho11 on
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  • bubblegirl2015bubblegirl2015 Member Posts: 828 Arc User
    edited October 2018
    I have been doing STO since Beta launch. In the scheme of things not sure why the drag on DISCO for another year.

    IMO they are overkilling it and dragging some who might dislike that genre alltogether. I have been neutral about DISCO but at least there is a very slim roadmap that portrays more of the same. I give kudos for the roadmap and informing players what's coming.
    However, if there is not much coming why make one in the first place. I can sympathize with the white knights as much as I do with the ones who dont care much about DISCO. No matter how it's dressed up still it is more of a grind no matter how you look at it. Heck, at least there is the winter and summer events to look forward to if you dislike DISCO pig-2.gif​​
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  • crypticarmsmancrypticarmsman Member Posts: 3,950 Arc User
    asches1 wrote: »
    I just read the post on the homepage where STO is headed in 2019. It's just really sad. "Legendary" Discovery? That show is out for a year maybe, not liked by the lot of Trekkies and STO is heading full into that.
    ^^^
    Welcome to being a long time Star trek fan. As someone who's been watching Star Trek first run since 1969 (at age 6) - You klnow know how many a TOS fan felt in 1987 when TNG Season 1 premiered (and it was REALLY BAD out of the gate) <--- yet this was the 'new' direction Star Trek was going. ;)

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  • salazarrazesalazarraze Member Posts: 3,789 Arc User
    edited October 2018
    asches1 wrote: »
    I'm curious what others think and if I'm really alone with this opinion.

    It's complicated. First, you're not alone. There are plenty of other TRIBBLE crybabies around here. Personally, I enjoyed Discovery even though I would readily admit it to be pretty awful writing for the most part. It was still entertaining though despite it being so badly written.

    Second, your opinion and your proclaiming you're done with STO over TRIBBLE isn't that different from people who hate JJ Trek. There were several posts when JJ content was introduced into STO from people that said they'd were upset and were done with STO. And yet STO is still going more than 2 years later. STO will survive whatever minimal backlash comes from Discovery content being added to the game.

    Overall, I would tell you that you should get over yourself. Discovery is just a TV show and has no effect on your life outcome. Especially since you don't play STO anymore.
    When you see "TRIBBLE" in my posts, it's because I manually typed "TRIBBLE" and censored myself.
  • vetteguy904vetteguy904 Member Posts: 3,495 Arc User
    asches1 wrote: »
    I just read the post on the homepage where STO is headed in 2019. It's just really sad. "Legendary" Discovery? That show is out for a year maybe, not liked by the lot of Trekkies and STO is heading full into that.
    I bought a lifer subscription when it came out for mac. I let myself be trapped by the big mashine named "Cryptic" and loved the game till the mac version got canned. Since then I regreted that purchase a lot, but when I see how the game is developing (I don't know how much work goes into devving a game, but I can imagine a lot and especially that's why I would want to do it right conentwise) and where they are headed (not just contentwise) I must say, that if I hadn't stopped playing back then, when they dropped the mac version, I would stop playing now.

    STO content was so good, interesting and diverse. And now it's just sad.

    I'm curious what others think and if I'm really alone with this opinion.

    I would not say dislike. I think many if not most fans resent that it's behind CBS' paywall, and have refused to watch it, AND the distaste many have for JJtrek
    Spock.jpg

  • vetteguy904vetteguy904 Member Posts: 3,495 Arc User
    warpangel wrote: »
    I wonder at the thought process that leads someone who admittedly hasn't played the game in almost 2 years to come to the forums just to post Yet Another Pointless Discovery Hate Thread.

    Don't people have better things to do?

    to be fair, if you pause to reflect, what has been the biggest complaints as far as content since the game started; 1. lack of KDF content 2. lack of Romulan content. IMHO< it got better with Delta, and to a lesser degree, the dyson stuff. then the ball got dropped, kicked down the field picked up, fumbled and landed in the wrong endzone when they did AOY the patheticallfew episodes there, REALLY upset a lot of players, and the exclusion of alien character gen, nbo KDF or Rom involvement sparked up the lack of content for those factions. got back on track with ViL, somewhat, and now we are looking at over a year of Discovery development? seriously? that is nothing but a big FU to the TOS fans, the THNG fans who got NOTHING for the recent anniversary, ditto DS9 fans, although you can say that ViL is sorta kinda ds9 content. where the hell is the Enterprise content? yeah yeah discovery is on now,blah blah. but if you step back and look objectively, the OP had a very valid point. can anyone say that throwing the giant middle finger to anyone wh DARES to NOT like JJtrek not be offended?
    it's back to the DEVS. they have ceased listening to the players. honestly I don't think they EVER listened to us.

    which makes this appropriate:
    2w7hdt1.jpg
    Spock.jpg

  • duncanidaho11duncanidaho11 Member Posts: 7,624 Arc User
    edited October 2018
    I have been doing STO since Beta launch. In the scheme of things not sure why the drag on DISCO for another year.​​

    Because it's starting a new arc? The Hur'Q's story began in September 2016, effectively signifying almost two years of content that lead into DS9 (note the wealth of variation, extrapolate to AoD. Cryptic isn't changing the way they write STO) and here we are complaining that DSC had more than the initial launch of a season (just after the Hur'Q/Tzenkethi arc culminated with a full expansion.) Just...what the hell. I'm starting to feel inclined to arbitrarily complain about ANY nod to DS9/TNG/VOY/TOS simply to provide a little balance to what's consumed these threads (the pacing feels stilted, plots mostly contrived, structure is formulaic (especially in TNG/VOY), the world building is fairly rudimentary for sci-fi, the art design is dry beyond a few headlining ships, and characters are largely static between episodes [though dynamic within] owing to the syndication format.)

    Guys, we know the show isn't to your taste. This is basic, not every series is going to appeal to everyone but that doesn't entitle those who feel "left out" to try to dictate the terms of the game's development and exclude (in quite unreasonable terms) new material just because the host TV show didn't grab them (although only as far as DSC is concerned. Enterprise, Final Frontier; any other "subpar" iteration of the IP is okay to reference in STO because reasons.) Exercise some initiative and make something new of it, that is rather the point of interactive versus passive entertainment.
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  • vetteguy904vetteguy904 Member Posts: 3,495 Arc User

    They have exhausted everything. Every series and film has been relentlessly mined for content. There's barely a single ship in the trek universe that isn't in the game. They are running out of ideas and it's obvious - there are only so many combinations of gear left. The queues are starting to seem exactly like other queues, etc.
    um, no, they have not.
    just off the top of my head, what happened with Ekos? how about the gangsters? Metrons? first federation? Miri's world? the andromedans? how about the olympians? sure apollo "Cast himself upon the winds" but what if they all were to come back? thats seven arcs off the top of my headyou could do one offs, like how did the bozeman get into that temporal loop that dragged the 1701D in with it? Trelane is still out there, is he a Q? thats just TOS. what happened after the 5 year mission and before TMP? sure Kirk was welded to a desk, but there were other starships.
    or how about some RSE content? there are some fans for that side of it. add some content to do before you have to join the federation or KDF. how about some KDF content where you actually ally with a house and depending on which one you do diffrent episodes, off the top, a Martok vs Torg storyline, house specific. we could roundtable content the 10 more years worth of content and never touch discovery, but the devs won't listen
    Spock.jpg

  • duncanidaho11duncanidaho11 Member Posts: 7,624 Arc User
    first federation?

    According to my head canon, collectively succumb to tranya addiction. :tongue:
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  • dracounguisdracounguis Member Posts: 5,358 Arc User
    I'd probably watch Discovery if it was free. But I'm not rewarding CBS for going behind a paywall in the US but the rest of the world gets it w/o extra charge on Netflix.
  • jexsamxjexsamx Member Posts: 2,797 Arc User
    lordbeefy7 wrote: »
    Im a long term trekkie. I did not like TRIBBLE for the 1st 5 episodes. I stuck with it as a loyal trekkie and found that by the end of the series i was very much onboard with TRIBBLE and looking forward to season 2. The latest trailer showing chistopher pike as the capt and TRIBBLE Enterprise has got me hyped so im very pleased.

    You, sir or madam, are a rare breed. It seems being able to take the good with the bad and simply giving things a chance are skills many have never developed.

    As for me, I'm in the same boat you seem to be. The first few episodes are by far the worst - the opening two-parter was physically painful. But it didn't take long for the show to start improving, and by the time we get to the showdown with the Sarcophagus Ship, I was actually invested. I'm a bit baffled as to why they thought they'd earned a trip to the MU afterwards, and there were some really stupid parts in that little detour (the whole climactic fight sequence is one of the dumbest fight scenes I've ever seen committed to film), but by and large it was still entertaining.

    I'm interested to see where season 2 takes us - I'm worried they're gonna over-correct and try to stick borrowed Orville elements and TOS nostalgia into a blender set on purée, but I'm confident it'll at least be entertaining to watch.
  • vegeta50024vegeta50024 Member Posts: 2,310 Arc User
    warpangel wrote: »
    I wonder at the thought process that leads someone who admittedly hasn't played the game in almost 2 years to come to the forums just to post Yet Another Pointless Discovery Hate Thread.

    Don't people have better things to do?

    to be fair, if you pause to reflect, what has been the biggest complaints as far as content since the game started; 1. lack of KDF content 2. lack of Romulan content. IMHO< it got better with Delta, and to a lesser degree, the dyson stuff. then the ball got dropped, kicked down the field picked up, fumbled and landed in the wrong endzone when they did AOY the patheticallfew episodes there, REALLY upset a lot of players, and the exclusion of alien character gen, nbo KDF or Rom involvement sparked up the lack of content for those factions. got back on track with ViL, somewhat, and now we are looking at over a year of Discovery development? seriously? that is nothing but a big FU to the TOS fans, the THNG fans who got NOTHING for the recent anniversary, ditto DS9 fans, although you can say that ViL is sorta kinda ds9 content. where the hell is the Enterprise content? yeah yeah discovery is on now,blah blah. but if you step back and look objectively, the OP had a very valid point. can anyone say that throwing the giant middle finger to anyone wh DARES to NOT like JJtrek not be offended?
    it's back to the DEVS. they have ceased listening to the players. honestly I don't think they EVER listened to us.

    which makes this appropriate:
    2w7hdt1.jpg

    I would disagree with you there on AoY having a pathetic amount of episodes. AoY actually seems to have been started a bit prior to the expansion's actual release with Future Proof, which wasn't finished until we got the bulk of the expansion.

    Klingons and Romulans never got the kind of involvement for the rest of the story essentially because while the alliance was blamed for the situation that resulted in the Na'kuhl star being disrupted, the Na'kuhl chose to go after the Federation because Noye likely convinced them that the Federation was the one to target, since if they fell then the alliance would never form.

    Besides, unlike the Federation, we honestly had no clear idea on what things were like for the Klingons in 2270, as most of what we knew of the Klingons weren't defined until later series. The only thing we knew for sure was that the Klingons were antagonistic vs. the Federation, likely because the two of them had opposing viewpoints on how they pursued expansion.

    Romulans wouldn't have worked in the same way that the story was written for the Federation. A 2270 Romulan character done in the same way would have still been from the Romulan Star Empire, and essentially used to the way things were run by the Empire. When they get the flash forward to the 25th century, they'd find that their homeworld is gone and their people are literally in a civil war between the existing Romulan Star Empire and the developing Romulan Republic. They would be asked to give up what they grew up knowing and get forced into a power that goes against what they were raised with.

    Now addressing some of your other concerns here. AoY was a tribute to TOS, as it featured the ability to make a character in the TOS era, complete with giving them era appropriate animations. TNG got plenty for an anniversary celebration. For one, the whole game set 39-40 years after TNG's last episode, so it's essentially a giant tribute to TNG. On the subject of Enterprise, you could say that Agents of Yesterday also touched on the biggest piece of Enterprise which was the Temporal Cold War. There's honestly nothing else left that they can spend an expansion on there.

    They have exhausted everything. Every series and film has been relentlessly mined for content. There's barely a single ship in the trek universe that isn't in the game. They are running out of ideas and it's obvious - there are only so many combinations of gear left. The queues are starting to seem exactly like other queues, etc.
    um, no, they have not.
    just off the top of my head, what happened with Ekos? how about the gangsters? Metrons? first federation? Miri's world? the andromedans? how about the olympians? sure apollo "Cast himself upon the winds" but what if they all were to come back? thats seven arcs off the top of my headyou could do one offs, like how did the bozeman get into that temporal loop that dragged the 1701D in with it? Trelane is still out there, is he a Q? thats just TOS. what happened after the 5 year mission and before TMP? sure Kirk was welded to a desk, but there were other starships.
    or how about some RSE content? there are some fans for that side of it. add some content to do before you have to join the federation or KDF. how about some KDF content where you actually ally with a house and depending on which one you do diffrent episodes, off the top, a Martok vs Torg storyline, house specific. we could roundtable content the 10 more years worth of content and never touch discovery, but the devs won't listen

    A lot of the TOS stuff you mentioned were likely supposed to be one off episodes, considering that not even in TNG did they bother returning to any of those stories. The USS Bozeman story should have been expanded on, but likely wasn't, though it would have been interesting if it was the result of time meddling by the Temporal Liberation Front.

    As far as RSE content goes, there would not be anything to do there, considering that the group you actually play a Romulan with is the Romulan Republic, which has plenty of content before you choose an ally.

    Klingon house content would be very tricky to do. What you would be proposing would really be a lot of work considering there's many houses, not all of which are known so they'd have to make up content. Besides, technically we do have a House of Martok vs. House of Torg storyline, one in which gets resolved over time.

    The devs honestly have been wanting to do Discovery content since the series started airing. They're now dedicating resources to it because they have the chance to actually work with an active star trek production. They are devoting the next 6 months to Discovery mainly because what they gave us with the initial wave of Age of Discovery is an incomplete story. We have the tutorial, a post tutorial mission and what's the end of the initial Discovery arc. J'Ula is still out there and they will bring her back once they give us the rest of the story that they had planned out. It just takes time.

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  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,231 Arc User
    Romulans wouldn't have worked in the same way that the story was written for the Federation. A 2270 Romulan character done in the same way would have still been from the Romulan Star Empire, and essentially used to the way things were run by the Empire. When they get the flash forward to the 25th century, they'd find that their homeworld is gone and their people are literally in a civil war between the existing Romulan Star Empire and the developing Romulan Republic. They would be asked to give up what they grew up knowing and get forced into a power that goes against what they were raised with.
    If I was writing it I'd have the past tutorial bits focus on how the social elites in Romulan society are corrupting their civilization from within. Then flash forward to the future... the Tal'shiar control a large chunk of what was once the RSE, the legit RSE government is in ruins, and the new Republic is trying to fix the mess. So that way it'd be natural for them to join the Republic.
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  • raahzielraahziel Member Posts: 33 Arc User
    I havent personally seen any Discovery yet, I have heard its bad and from the little I know it seems to circumvent lore in wonderful ways but that aside, from what I have seen in game it seems ok. Certainly not as bad as I was lead to believe. I also imagine the show is much the same - Not the ST I grew up with and know and love but reasonable sci-fi none the less. That doesnt mean that I like the thing particularly however.

    I feel there are so many other avenues of both gameplay and story that the game could go for. Exploration especially for the Feds, more Stealth and civil war for the Klingons (You know the thing that supposedly stops the Klinks from rolling over the rest of the quadrant if thats still a thing) and more Stealth and backstabbing for the Romulans. For me TNG era and onwards is my favourite thing.
  • neomodiousneomodious Member Posts: 428 Arc User

    I would not say dislike. I think many if not most fans resent that it's behind CBS' paywall, and have refused to watch it, AND the distaste many have for JJtrek
    I'd probably watch Discovery if it was free. But I'm not rewarding CBS for going behind a paywall in the US but the rest of the world gets it w/o extra charge on Netflix.

    This is a major one of my problems with it. The pilot coming across as a self insert "Mary Sue" from bad fan fiction didn't help. Once it's on DVD I'll try it, from a library so CBS doesn't get more data on it.
  • duncanidaho11duncanidaho11 Member Posts: 7,624 Arc User
    edited October 2018
    raahziel wrote: »
    I havent personally seen any Discovery yet, I have heard its bad and from the little I know it seems to circumvent lore in wonderful ways but that aside, from what I have seen in game it seems ok. Certainly not as bad as I was lead to believe. I also imagine the show is much the same - Not the ST I grew up with and know and love but reasonable sci-fi none the less. That doesnt mean that I like the thing particularly however.

    I feel there are so many other avenues of both gameplay and story that the game could go for. Exploration especially for the Feds, more Stealth and civil war for the Klingons (You know the thing that supposedly stops the Klinks from rolling over the rest of the quadrant if thats still a thing) and more Stealth and backstabbing for the Romulans. For me TNG era and onwards is my favourite thing.

    It's definitely worth forming your own opinion on the subject. I think it's fair to say that DSC is a challenging show, attempting to balance the style of conventional Star Trek with modern TV drama (which it must survive against), that hasn't quite found its footing with writing and tone. That said, to me what it challenges most are fan preconceptions and that I think is a big explanatory variable for the attempts by some to gatekeep the IP and reject Age of Discovery because it's referencing this new material.

    For exploration, it's something the devs are looking at and the prospect of internal Klingon conflict I think is looking quite likely with J'ula set to become the Klingon Mua'dib (with twist that us protagonists are on the side of establishment.)
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  • neoakiraiineoakiraii Member Posts: 7,468 Arc User
    edited October 2018
    I had to sit and watch people play the Delta Episodes despite Voyager being a trash show, and badly written....you'll live
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  • kiriseekirisee Member Posts: 443 Arc User
    I'd probably watch Discovery if it was free. But I'm not rewarding CBS for going behind a paywall in the US but the rest of the world gets it w/o extra charge on Netflix.

    There is no real "paywall" to watching Discovery. There are many places on the internet where you can still watch it all. So your point is moot.
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  • vegeta50024vegeta50024 Member Posts: 2,310 Arc User
    kirisee wrote: »
    I'd probably watch Discovery if it was free. But I'm not rewarding CBS for going behind a paywall in the US but the rest of the world gets it w/o extra charge on Netflix.

    There is no real "paywall" to watching Discovery. There are many places on the internet where you can still watch it all. So your point is moot.

    Not only that, but it's coming out to Blu ray and DVD, which if I understand, you have to pay once for to have unlimited viewing, when you want.

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  • lianthelialianthelia Member Posts: 7,730 Arc User
    I'm confused why anyone is surprised or upset over the road map.

    Discovery is the currently airing show. There are currently a total of 2 missions in the game that are 'Discovery Themed,' there is also 1 Space Queue and a Tutorial.

    Did people really think that was all? That 'Age of Discovery' was going to be 2 missions? Right now, Discovery has hardly any presence at all in STO.. obviously there is going to be more.

    Besides, the road map is 6 months and everyone acts like the entire game is nothing but Discovery from here on out.

    And for the record, people keep saying that most people don't like Discovery but most of the people I know like it (myself included.) I have a couple friends who haven't been online in years that came back to check out the Discovery stuff and I see a whole ton of Discovery Captains and ships flying about in game.

    Everyone likes to pretend that their opinion is the majority and that if they don't like something then it's an 'obvious' failure. Rather you want to believe it or not, a lot of people like Discovery and are excited for the upcoming content.

    I understand if you don't like it, I respect that opinion. But I also encourage you to at least try the new content before you decide you don't like it. I would also encourage you to give the 2nd season of Discovery a chance instead of condemning it before it even airs. I looks like Season 2 is a little more in the pace of what people are used to, but we'll see what happens.

    Overall, it's only been 1 season and a couple missions in STO. It's a little early to decide that it's beyond redemption if you don't like it.

    That's basically what they did to ViL...the Dominion war had a long life in DS9...we got a few episodes about the Dominion throughout all of these years of STO, then we finally get ViL...and what happens? It's cut short so STO can be one big advertisement for Discovery.

    I can accept that Discovery is coming to STO...but when content is cut short to basically make STO a huge advertisement for the show, yes I'm upset. I mean for god sakes they even changed the intro theme in STO...they've never done that ever before.

    Want to add more Discovery content fine...but forcing almost nothing but it down our throats for more than half a year?
  • captainwellscaptainwells Member Posts: 718 Arc User
    Content based upon Discovery is not going to diminish all of the additional content that can be played during Star Trek Online. Whatever character you create from the Discovery era is going to end up in 2410, just like those original series-based temporal agents. Right now we do see a lot of Discovery content being prepped to roll out over the next several months, but that does not mean that ongoing aspects of the other storylines will not continue.

    Nothing to get worked up over ......... Yet!

    Now, if next summer and beyond appears to be a case of "Discovery and nothing but Discovery" within the confines of STO, then perhaps ..... yeah ..... hit the ceiling then.
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 56,312 Community Moderator
    Except for one thing... its no different than any other major content release we've had in the past.

    STO doesn't operate like other MMOs. While the traditional approach is to just work on major expansions and dump ALL new content in said expansions, STO doesn't do that. Yes we have major expansions, but most of the time it also includes new mechanics or something major, like a new faction. The rest of the time we get content released over time.

    AoD is a season, just like the Iconian War and other arcs. They will release content over time, allowing us to be able to look forward to new content all the time without having to wait a few years for the next expansion. Season updates don't happen all at once. They are released over time.
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  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,231 Arc User
    Content based upon Discovery is not going to diminish all of the additional content that can be played during Star Trek Online. Whatever character you create from the Discovery era is going to end up in 2410, just like those original series-based temporal agents. Right now we do see a lot of Discovery content being prepped to roll out over the next several months, but that does not mean that ongoing aspects of the other storylines will not continue.

    Nothing to get worked up over ......... Yet!

    Now, if next summer and beyond appears to be a case of "Discovery and nothing but Discovery" within the confines of STO, then perhaps ..... yeah ..... hit the ceiling then.
    The current story hook is that J'Ula and parts of House Mokai got shifted to the present by her experimental doomsday weapon. So not all of it's going to be in the past.
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  • siotaylorsiotaylor Member Posts: 296 Arc User
    There'll be a new Picard series in a year or two, then DSC will be all but forgotten while we throw a collective fit over how Admiral Picard, Ambassador Picard (or whatever) is destroying what makes Trek Trek and it can't be canon and the sky is falling... Again!

    Tbh I'm rather looking forward to that. I mean if Patrick Stewart is playing Picard, it can hardly be another historical recon, can it?
  • ashstorm1ashstorm1 Member Posts: 659 Arc User
    siotaylor wrote: »
    There'll be a new Picard series in a year or two, then DSC will be all but forgotten while we throw a collective fit over how Admiral Picard, Ambassador Picard (or whatever) is destroying what makes Trek Trek and it can't be canon and the sky is falling... Again!

    Tbh I'm rather looking forward to that. I mean if Patrick Stewart is playing Picard, it can hardly be another historical recon, can it?

    You nailed it.
  • crypticarmsmancrypticarmsman Member Posts: 3,950 Arc User
    patrickngo wrote: »
    siotaylor wrote: »
    There'll be a new Picard series in a year or two, then DSC will be all but forgotten while we throw a collective fit over how Admiral Picard, Ambassador Picard (or whatever) is destroying what makes Trek Trek and it can't be canon and the sky is falling... Again!

    Tbh I'm rather looking forward to that. I mean if Patrick Stewart is playing Picard, it can hardly be another historical recon, can it?

    I think we've reached the point that people won't even bother unless they DO manage to do it right. hate to tell you this, but when it provides a sufficiently bad taste, a lot of people won't give the source another chance.

    for example, I will be waiting for Discovery's season 2 in the clearance bin at the local library before I give it a chance, and I'm inclined not to bother with Sir Patrick's bit unless it really looks seriously promising-and won't be giving it more than a free preview's chance, and that's because Discovery was that bad.

    History proves you wrong already. Neither TNG's nor DS9's first seasons were liked out of the gate; but there were enough fans for both shows that they survived and went 7 seasons each. I know many fans of both series think they were loved out of the gate, but that just wasn't the case - DS9 was moreso despised than TNG for being "Anti GR's vision" and "too dark" <--- Sound familiar? ;)
    Formerly known as Armsman from June 2008 to June 20, 2012
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    PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
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