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  • where2r1where2r1 Member Posts: 6,054 Arc User
    edited October 2018
    patrickngo wrote: »
    hell, they should probably just get some unpaid interns from Berkeley or the next nearest campus to do it for college credit.

    Those types know games from the user-end, and they're inexpensive. What you're looking for among the authors is talent, particularly talent that isn't already going to work for someone else and is desperate for 'Industry experience' (to pad their resume and actually help them get a REAL job.)

    and I suspect you're right about cryptic NOT being particularly organized. They're a SMALL shop, I kinda think many-hats happens a lot there.

    But the Foundry authors ARE, essentially, volunteer interns. They are learning about the STO program and how it works by formulating those missions. They are gaining the experience, though not credits.

    Are these the types of missions people will pay to play? Obviously, no. They barely play. WHY?

    "Foundry Call To Arms" post as reference if you have not read it.
    And even in this post illustrates it.

    But there is a huge disconnect for scortch0 and tons of other players of what the Foundry offers.
    So, HE asks to PAY more for missions.

    The exact thing the OP is ASKING TO PAY EXTRA FOR....expanded stories that are faction specific...is already available in the game for free. For Free! All he has to do is search for them, because Cryptic has not come up with a decent search engine that can handle and sort the thousands of missions in the Foundry system. Ah ha...found the number: 91,000 Foundry missions according to captainhunter1's siggy.

    Patrickngo....I tried for a while to do some KDF missions and write a blurb about them in the Klingon Folder. But the Foundry has been up and down for various "updates" (it is down again for Discovery)...and has picked up so many bugs that even some of the authors were dishearten over it. So I stopped.

    I hope they get this back on track and stable, again.

    Right now, the Foundry Authors are doing a Foundry Challenge on Victory is Life and the Cardassian or Jem'Hadar faction missions.

    It should be back up for voting on when the Foundry comes back up.

    https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/startrekonline/#/discussion/1243722/foundry-challenge-victory-is-life-voting-thread
    "Spend your life doing strange things with weird people." -- UNK

    “Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
  • where2r1where2r1 Member Posts: 6,054 Arc User
    Hey! I liked those whales!
    My favorite Star Trek movie.
    "Spend your life doing strange things with weird people." -- UNK

    “Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
  • where2r1where2r1 Member Posts: 6,054 Arc User
    edited October 2018
    patrickngo wrote: »
    what I was talking about wasn't promoting the missions, it was using them to identify possible freelancers to use. some of the foundry authors DO do good work, moreso, they do it with very little in terms of resources compared to the pros at Crytic Studios.

    They won't spend the money because all the other steps they have to take to make the program ready for this stuff. Who wants to write for a game that goes wonky, constantly? Would you put this TRIBBLE in your portfolio? Even Foundry authors are running away.

    ++++++++++

    EXACTLY...the Foundry authors do some great missions.
    But the players are not doing them, while they are free.

    Why would players pay to play missions done by Foundry, or ex-Foundry, authors?
    What would make them want to, if there is free stuff in the Foundry?
    Hence, Foundry will be competition...it will have to come down and stay down.

    The problem is not: "done officially by a pro" or "done by a player as amateur".
    It is a lack of promotion. And difficulty in finding them....much less, finding the "good ones".

    No one talks about Foundry missions they did or enjoyed. You can write a review that goes no where useful.
    Foundry authors are sequestered off in their own Forum section, I am not even "following" that section. I think they have a web site...they used to have a You Tube channel...I don't know if they broadcast any more. So rarely does anything go outside that circle.

    Kael started "Spotlights"....but I only saw 2 of them. And, not to say it matters much, Foundry has been down (or bugged out) more than up and running good, lately.

    ++++++++++++++

    OK...lets take it further:
    So people will pay to play a KDF story arc about....say the KDF Civil War. Or Gorn.
    And most likely pay to play a Romulan mission concerning Remans rebuilding on New Rom. Or Tal Shiar.

    Try throwing some Discovery related stories into this mess....what happens?

    How much more profit could they rake in by creating and selling extra mission arcs to Starfleet???
    Which do you think they will end up doing??? And which would they spend the most efforts on?

    It will end up being just like the ships.
    "Spend your life doing strange things with weird people." -- UNK

    “Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
  • where2r1where2r1 Member Posts: 6,054 Arc User
    edited October 2018
    Well...all I know is, this idea of "pay to play" missions that are faction specified will not enhance "alternate" factions at all.

    Getting people to realize there are some good "alternate" faction missions inside the Foundry...will help 2 groups of players.

    The ones who enjoy making Foundry missions AND the ones who enjoy playing other...than Federation.

    I am going to dust off that list of KDF Foundry missions and post them in the KDF folder, once the Foundry is back up. And see if I can get more KDF Foundry mission suggestions.

    (PvP, on the other hand....no clue how to help that, except I think I figured out a way to turn off Specializations still need to check to make sure it is completely off.)
    "Spend your life doing strange things with weird people." -- UNK

    “Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
  • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 9,427 Arc User
    where2r1 wrote: »
    So people will pay to play a KDF story arc about....say the KDF Civil War. Or Gorn.
    And most likely pay to play a Romulan mission concerning Remans rebuilding on New Rom. Or Tal Shiar.

    Try throwing some Discovery related stories into this mess....what happens?

    How much more profit could they rake in by creating and selling extra mission arcs to Starfleet???
    Which do you think they will end up doing??? And which would they spend the most efforts on?

    It will end up being just like the ships.
    And why should they not sell the KDF story arc to Starfleet?

    For that matter, why are they not selling the KDF ships to Starfleet? I don't know. I would.

    On the other hand, they have stripped back the restrictions somewhat already (jemmy ships all-faction unlocks, rom/jem T5-6 allied ships access)...maybe they eventually will.

    Still, I have to say selling story arcs probably wouldn't work in STO. Cryptic barely gives enough reason to play the free ones. I play a game that has premium mission content, and what makes it worth buying is the unique drops and rewards. In STO all the gear and stuff are just interchangeable "options" that aren't needed for anything. Fact is I've been discarding the episode reward gear more often than using them. I certainly wouldn't pay anything for them.
  • korithian1korithian1 Member Posts: 82 Arc User
    While it would be really nice to have some other faction/species story arcs, it would be a nice start just to have some other faction/species specific dialogue or Introductions.

    As it stands you can be a federation captain from the Standard time line, the TOS time line and the Discovery time line. But sadly despite this when playing a Romulan or KDF captain you are a very generic captain. Every Romulan things the Tal Shiar is bad, the Star Empire was bad and the Romulan republic is the best thing in the world. Every KDF captain speaks fluent Klingon and occasionally reverts back to their mother tongue even if they are Gorn or Orion or Cardassian. Thats not to say its a walk in the park for Federation captains, heaven forbid if they aren't all optimistic do gooders.

    What would be really nice is if they could be fleshed out a little more, maybe inline with the really good character creator that is on offer. Maybe even a species specific introduction, hell I am currently waiting on the next delta recruit event just so much character can have a moment with himself to let him know that its important that he pretends to be a good officer as the galaxy will need him. As it stands it often feels that the only faction in the game should be borg as upon entering Star Fleet or the KDF every captain becomes a drone of their faction and assimilates the characteristics of their primary member. My poor Cardassian captains keep ending up on the damn Klingon Barge of the dead and they don't even believe in those idiots religion, let alone defeating some aspects of Klingon superstition.
  • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 9,427 Arc User
    All the player characters are generic and have very little speaking lines, so that the player is left free to use their imagination.
  • where2r1where2r1 Member Posts: 6,054 Arc User
    edited October 2018
    warpangel wrote: »
    And why should they not sell the KDF story arc to Starfleet?

    I was just going along with the theme the OP was going with.
    Which was he would pay for content that was not federation centered.
    So, Cryptic could develop the alternate factions...instead of continue with fractions.

    Besides, I think it has to do with the way the dialog with the NPC's go during the missions....
    So, if you want your Fed character act / talk like a Klingon or Gorn or Romulan...etc...that is cool.

    warpangel wrote: »
    For that matter, why are they not selling the KDF ships to Starfleet? I don't know. I would.

    I got Alien-gen Klingons in AoD and in the Romulan fraction, and I have invested into Federation/Klingon. All I need is the costumes and ships for them. I don't know what the appeal would be for me. They would not feel any different when doing the video game part of the game....than just making a character Klingon faction from the start.

    So, they may as well can stay in the ships they are in. LOL!
    "Spend your life doing strange things with weird people." -- UNK

    “Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
  • annemarie30annemarie30 Member Posts: 2,160 Arc User
    scortch0 wrote: »
    Being a star trek fan, as much as i love the federation, this game has more factions than just the federation. More ofetn than not we get Fed only Expansions that completely cut out a good portion of your player base. Klingon has its on dictionary and there is a huge amount of lore and things to make a Klingon Expansion, yet we never see one. Discovery is going deeper into Klingon history and culture than ever before. yet here we have yet another fed on expansion. thats just bad business......period.

    to only favor one faction and to even stop making ships for all the factions you have released is BAD BUSINESS, you alienate your customer base and then to only have a tutorial for the expansion is kinda lame as well. So what you gave us a Scaling Fed only ship, what about the rest of your customer base that does not play federation?

    Something to think about before you start losing players, cause everyone i have spoken to made a discovery toon found out there was no benefit and deleted that toon, and went back to playing the toons that have grown to love for the factions they love.

    if cryptic is to be believed, 1. KDF only ships do not sell well, and 2. if they do release KDF only or Rom only (and now JH) the other facions will scream bloody murder.
    Sadly, i think that kills any chance of me seeing the t6 Lion Fish carrier i want
    awkward.jpg
    We Want Vic Fontaine
  • thevampinatorthevampinator Member Posts: 637 Arc User
    Well I would like to see them to add a discovery klingon alternate start. They could say you got gang pressed into fighting for JU'la and well end up in the twenty fifth century. Maybe Daniels Recruits your Kdf character. For reasons, and well they can do this too. But well, one thing I noticed is they seem to not be making separate faction content if any anymore. KDfs, Roms, Feds, Discovery feds, Tos Feds, Dominion all get the same missions instead of differant missions for each faction because that is how they make the content now. Discovery is well a special federation starting point in the discovery era while all the others get a holoprogram of the missions that are in the discovery era. I would like to see them develop a Klingon alternate start because well it would make sense the two major factions getting it.

    Since Klingon Content is touched a lot more in Discovery then previous shows before it. It would balance it out, give players the means of being discovery kdf. So much potential for them to use the klingon academy that really isn't used for a tutorial mission. Its just there because the feds have one.
    I understand they don't have well the resources to pull off a lot of content at once. They have to make do with the time they do have to make all the content and they only have so many devs to do it. It might be the reason why they won't make separate faction missions anymore. But lets hope they do add a discovery klingon alternate start, when they are able to do so. Maybe add in Discovery Klingon models. Well we will see what happens. They are just starting with the discovery content this isn't an expansion its well the season 16 I think, might be off on that. There will be more discovery stuff. They have said that, my guess is they are still working on it. They will launch more content as soon as its done. Hopefully they add more to the dominion faction and well other factions later on too.
  • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 9,427 Arc User
    scortch0 wrote: »
    Being a star trek fan, as much as i love the federation, this game has more factions than just the federation. More ofetn than not we get Fed only Expansions that completely cut out a good portion of your player base. Klingon has its on dictionary and there is a huge amount of lore and things to make a Klingon Expansion, yet we never see one. Discovery is going deeper into Klingon history and culture than ever before. yet here we have yet another fed on expansion. thats just bad business......period.

    to only favor one faction and to even stop making ships for all the factions you have released is BAD BUSINESS, you alienate your customer base and then to only have a tutorial for the expansion is kinda lame as well. So what you gave us a Scaling Fed only ship, what about the rest of your customer base that does not play federation?

    Something to think about before you start losing players, cause everyone i have spoken to made a discovery toon found out there was no benefit and deleted that toon, and went back to playing the toons that have grown to love for the factions they love.

    if cryptic is to be believed, 1. KDF only ships do not sell well, and 2. if they do release KDF only or Rom only (and now JH) the other facions will scream bloody murder.
    Sadly, i think that kills any chance of me seeing the t6 Lion Fish carrier i want
    Why wouldn't they be believed? If you arbitrarily forbid the vast majority of your customers from buying something, is it any wonder it doesn't sell well?
  • xyquarzexyquarze Member Posts: 2,091 Arc User
    scortch0 wrote: »
    xyquarze wrote: »
    scortch0 wrote: »
    typical fed lover answer

    While probably true (many here are Fed lovers. And also KDF and Rom lovers), this wasn't even a relevant point the first time you used it in this thread.

    its my thread, if you want to play grammar police, and not add anything actually useful shut your mouth plz and go bother someone else's discussion

    There's no such thing as "my thread" here. A discussion is open to the whole community. And you trying to throw "ad hominems" at others isn't helping the discussion for anybody, just as pointing that out has nothing to do with "grammar police", especially since it doesn't involve grammar ...
    My mother was an epohh and my father smelled of tulaberries
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,231 Arc User
    warpangel wrote: »
    scortch0 wrote: »
    Being a star trek fan, as much as i love the federation, this game has more factions than just the federation. More ofetn than not we get Fed only Expansions that completely cut out a good portion of your player base. Klingon has its on dictionary and there is a huge amount of lore and things to make a Klingon Expansion, yet we never see one. Discovery is going deeper into Klingon history and culture than ever before. yet here we have yet another fed on expansion. thats just bad business......period.

    to only favor one faction and to even stop making ships for all the factions you have released is BAD BUSINESS, you alienate your customer base and then to only have a tutorial for the expansion is kinda lame as well. So what you gave us a Scaling Fed only ship, what about the rest of your customer base that does not play federation?

    Something to think about before you start losing players, cause everyone i have spoken to made a discovery toon found out there was no benefit and deleted that toon, and went back to playing the toons that have grown to love for the factions they love.
    if cryptic is to be believed, 1. KDF only ships do not sell well, and 2. if they do release KDF only or Rom only (and now JH) the other facions will scream bloody murder.
    Sadly, i think that kills any chance of me seeing the t6 Lion Fish carrier i want
    Why wouldn't they be believed? If you arbitrarily forbid the vast majority of your customers from buying something, is it any wonder it doesn't sell well?
    Yeah they did their infographics and... while there are several particularly rabid KDF fans around.... peeps I've talked to in game just don't like Klingons, their fashion sense, the way they smell, the way their ships look, and/or the way their architecture looks. And yeah, if only 20% of the players have a KDF character then the low sales numbers for KDF ships MAKES SENSE.
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
    Costume_marhawkman_Tsin%27xing_CC_Comic_Page_Blue_488916968.jpg
  • sirsitsalotsirsitsalot Member Posts: 2,555 Arc User
    Yeah they did their infographics and... while there are several particularly rabid KDF fans around.... peeps I've talked to in game just don't like Klingons, their fashion sense, the way they smell, the way their ships look, and/or the way their architecture looks. And yeah, if only 20% of the players have a KDF character then the low sales numbers for KDF ships MAKES SENSE.

    And yet, the 20% are as much a part of the whole as the remaining 80%, And if you offer them something they wouldn't mind spending money on, then that's still more money in PWE's bank. The problem is that Cryptic has always treated anyone who wants to play exclusively as something other than a federation character as if they are second-class players. That is what created such a massive disparity between UFP and KDF players to begin with. When you go months and years watching one group getting most of the attention, it's kind of hard to summon much enthusiasm. And when you cannot play an MMO the way you want, you are more likely to not play at all rather than just conform.
    Cryptic Studios CAN'T
    because
    Perfect World Entertainment WON'T
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,231 Arc User
    Yeah they did their infographics and... while there are several particularly rabid KDF fans around.... peeps I've talked to in game just don't like Klingons, their fashion sense, the way they smell, the way their ships look, and/or the way their architecture looks. And yeah, if only 20% of the players have a KDF character then the low sales numbers for KDF ships MAKES SENSE.
    And yet, the 20% are as much a part of the whole as the remaining 80%, And if you offer them something they wouldn't mind spending money on, then that's still more money in PWE's bank. The problem is that Cryptic has always treated anyone who wants to play exclusively as something other than a federation character as if they are second-class players. That is what created such a massive disparity between UFP and KDF players to begin with. When you go months and years watching one group getting most of the attention, it's kind of hard to summon much enthusiasm. And when you cannot play an MMO the way you want, you are more likely to not play at all rather than just conform.
    Some people like to blame the devs, but the reality is that the people who like Klingons are not as numerous as those who like Feds. The base of the argument is a chicken/egg thing. Which came first dev neglect or player disinterest? I would argue player disinterest. Especially when you take off the mud-tinted glasses and look at the CURRENT state of the KDF in the context of what a new player ACTUALLY sees.

    They see a faction with somewhat less races than the Feds and a space-barbarian visual aesthetic that isn't particularly pleasant. A lot of my friends have actually said the hideous décor is why they don't want to play KDF. They simply think everything designed by Klingons is intolerably hideous.
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
    Costume_marhawkman_Tsin%27xing_CC_Comic_Page_Blue_488916968.jpg
  • thevampinatorthevampinator Member Posts: 637 Arc User
    edited October 2018
    I think it might be to do gathering locations as well and the ability to talk with one another a lot of players might hang on earthspace dock because of how its designed and maybe adding a kdf version calling it kronos space dock. With klingon themed interior but like the new federation earth space dock update. Then people will start gathering there I think. Klingon stuff is scattered and well their shipyard is not that big. I think if they made that effort to give the klingons a starbase as big as earth space dock with everything on there where you can find stuff. This might help the faction out, because klingons will come together to socialize in the same way feds and romulan aligned feds hang on earth space dock when they come to modify their ships use exchanges and banks and sell items. They can do some updates to help the faction out making it more worthwhile. What they can also do is allow each faction to go to each others planets, and space docks if they have diplomatic immunity and raiding party. Allowing the two factions to explore each others worlds and be there. But then well I think a lot of players will do what they can to rank up or get that buff from some player so they can go into earth space dock and other areas.
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,231 Arc User
    Heh, there actually is a space station orbiting Qo'nos that players can go to, but it's just the shipyard stuff.
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
    Costume_marhawkman_Tsin%27xing_CC_Comic_Page_Blue_488916968.jpg
  • thevampinatorthevampinator Member Posts: 637 Arc User
    edited October 2018
    Heh, there actually is a space station orbiting Qo'nos that players can go to, but it's just the shipyard stuff.

    Yeah they need a lot bigger station on par with earth space dock with everything there. Nice scenery, the Klingon starbase does not need to look to bad or rusty or dirty maybe more trees maybe a artificial waterfall, Klingon wildlife maybe not as fancy looking as earth space dock but well looking good enough players will hang out there.
  • sirsitsalotsirsitsalot Member Posts: 2,555 Arc User
    Some people like to blame the devs, but the reality is that the people who like Klingons are not as numerous as those who like Feds. The base of the argument is a chicken/egg thing. Which came first dev neglect or player disinterest? I would argue player disinterest. Especially when you take off the mud-tinted glasses and look at the CURRENT state of the KDF in the context of what a new player ACTUALLY sees.

    They see a faction with somewhat less races than the Feds and a space-barbarian visual aesthetic that isn't particularly pleasant. A lot of my friends have actually said the hideous décor is why they don't want to play KDF. They simply think everything designed by Klingons is intolerably hideous.[/quote]

    "The chicken or the egg" does not apply here. The game was pushed out the door with the KDF faction in a grossly incomplete state, compared to the UFP. When you launch a 2-faction game, it should always be at the forefront of the live development to keep them equal but opposite. I remember the rage in this community from those who wanted to exclusively play as a Klingon, with a distinct Klingon feel for everything. Those who didn't ragequit over it were banned from these forums because they would not stop throwing out references to the STO that was pitched as opposed to what was sold. That was Cryptic's way of fixing the problem.

    So yeah... Developer neglect came first. By the time PWE came on the scene, and DIRECTED Cryptic to bring the leveling curve for KDF on par with the UFP through PvE content, it was already too late. They missed their opportunity to fix the game as a 2-faction game.

    It gets worse... They don't even WANT it to be a 2-faction game. They want it to be just one faction: The Alliance. It consists of the Federation, The Klingon Empire, The New Romulan Republic, the Dominion, and various temporal agents representing Federation interests. So technically, even the Federation has become an origin story.

    The only thing that maintains the illusion of even a 2-faction model is the much neglected PvP aspect. Without this, the origin story treatment of all "factions" makes sense with the current narrative of the game. The problem is that without PvP, a segment of the player community will rage quit.


    <Palpatine>And... We. Shall. Have... Peace</Palpatine>

    Sorry... I couldn't resist that. But the sad truth is that PvP, just for the sake of the game having PvP, with no relevance to the current narrative of the game, is actually a stumbling block to both itself and to the current development direction. I'm not saying it needs to go. Just that until it is made relevant, and taking into account the whole origin story direction for all "factions" including the KDF and the UFP, the disparity of content and gameplay will continue to be felt strongly by all concerned.

    STO needs a new system. I have some thoughts about it, but going into it in this thread will derail it even further than it already has become...
    Cryptic Studios CAN'T
    because
    Perfect World Entertainment WON'T
  • icsairgunsicsairguns Member Posts: 1,504 Arc User
    scortch0 wrote: »
    Being a star trek fan, as much as i love the federation, this game has more factions than just the federation. More ofetn than not we get Fed only Expansions that completely cut out a good portion of your player base. Klingon has its on dictionary and there is a huge amount of lore and things to make a Klingon Expansion, yet we never see one. Discovery is going deeper into Klingon history and culture than ever before. yet here we have yet another fed on expansion. thats just bad business......period.

    to only favor one faction and to even stop making ships for all the factions you have released is BAD BUSINESS, you alienate your customer base and then to only have a tutorial for the expansion is kinda lame as well. So what you gave us a Scaling Fed only ship, what about the rest of your customer base that does not play federation?

    Something to think about before you start losing players, cause everyone i have spoken to made a discovery toon found out there was no benefit and deleted that toon, and went back to playing the toons that have grown to love for the factions they love.
    The early Klingon missions covered most aspects of Klingon lore
    -The Great House fighting? Check
    -The Sword of Kahless, Molor, Gre'thor, and the Fek'Ihri? Check
    -The Klingons on again off again wars with the Federation? Check
    -The Hur'q who attacked the Klingons 1,000 years ago and almost destroyed the Empire? Check.
    Congrats, that's like 95% of all Klingon lore right there.

    Not to mention Klingons have been the leads in the Iconian War, the Tzenkethi conflict, and saved the day during the Hur'q Crisis. The game constantly makes the Klingons look good.


    I call BS on this it only makes the Klingon look good if you play as a fed. taking orders from all these star fleet admirals and making the exact same decision as a fed would make is not really led by Klingons its just a lapdog mission of a fed in Klingon clothing.


    the Kobali would have been the enemy and the Vaadwuar the allies to a Klingon. the Voth only beef they had with our quadrant of space was with the federation and the theory of origin. the iconians if I Klingon had gone back in time he would have destroyed them and WON the war completely before it had even started now doing it the fed way we still have the rouge to deal with constantly. …..no even the new so called Klingon centric content is NOT Klingon. and with age of discovery it is just a slap in the face. the game needs to restart the war let the KDF become two divisions one that bows to the feds and losses their identity and the other that lives by the old ways. CIVIL WAR!!!!! it is very Klingon if they refuse to let us kill the feds.

    Trophies for killing FEDS ahh those were the days. Ch'ar%20POST%20LoR.JPG


  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,955 Arc User
    edited October 2018
    As much as I like triyng to see Cryptic's point of view and defend them, if anyone has any hope th0at PvP could ever get a chance again, I am afraid patrickngo's post above pretty much nails the problems.

    No one at Cryptic seems to be really interested in playing PvP. I am sure they have a professional level of interest like "Hey, our game would be a much more rounded game if it also offered decent PvP", but they really don't seem to be interest on a personal level.
    They gave us the Competitive Queue and new "PvP" Queues - and these "PVP" Queues are designed so that you can play almost entirely without any player fighting another player. It's puzzles and combat. The only "competitive" part is that one side can get it done sooner than the other. That is just not designed by someone that really enjoys PvP and wants to give existing PvPers something really exciting to do. It seems designed if not by someone, than at least for someone that doesn't really enjoy PvP but maybe thinks its kinda important to have that or try that.

    And the truth is, what they created is pretty much useless and worthless for every player. For dedicated PvPers, it offers basically nothing, because the tiny PvP aspect of it just is not satisfying. You don't really get the feeling that you're playing other players, another team, that you are "beating" someone or getting beaten by someone.
    Real PvP involves finding tactics that are superior to that of your enemy. You react faster, respond smarter. You try to outwit them. And you directly measure your skills at the game, you directly see what he's trying to do and try to anticipate moves and surprise him. A really important part of PvP is this constant feedback loop. You do something, your opponent responds, and you need to come up with a response in turn.
    Shooting at NPCs outside of each other's view and trying to get it done faster than your opponent is not PvP.

    And for people that aren't really into PvP? It's not really interesting. It takes a long time,is still repetitive as ever, but in some modes you might actually have to fight another player that uses all the dirty tricks that normally only you get to use. It's bound to be frustrating at times. Why bother, if you're not into it?

    I would aruge that the two most superfluous and needless additions to the game were the Injury System (a feeble and utterly unimmersive attempt to appease hardcore people that think "death penalties" are a must-have for "meaningful" play. Anyone that ever thought that either got cured of that notion after years of STO, or left the game already.) and the Competitive Queues.

    Maybe, if they had at least ensured that regular PvP Queues would actually qualify for Competitive Marks, maybe it could have at least done a tiny bit for the remaining PvPers.



    By comparison, More KDF exclusive story content would probably have been a much better addition to the game.
    Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,231 Arc User
    Some people like to blame the devs, but the reality is that the people who like Klingons are not as numerous as those who like Feds. The base of the argument is a chicken/egg thing. Which came first dev neglect or player disinterest? I would argue player disinterest. Especially when you take off the mud-tinted glasses and look at the CURRENT state of the KDF in the context of what a new player ACTUALLY sees.

    They see a faction with somewhat less races than the Feds and a space-barbarian visual aesthetic that isn't particularly pleasant. A lot of my friends have actually said the hideous décor is why they don't want to play KDF. They simply think everything designed by Klingons is intolerably hideous.
    "The chicken or the egg" does not apply here. The game was pushed out the door with the KDF faction in a grossly incomplete state, compared to the UFP. When you launch a 2-faction game, it should always be at the forefront of the live development to keep them equal but opposite. I remember the rage in this community from those who wanted to exclusively play as a Klingon, with a distinct Klingon feel for everything. Those who didn't ragequit over it were banned from these forums because they would not stop throwing out references to the STO that was pitched as opposed to what was sold. That was Cryptic's way of fixing the problem.

    So yeah... Developer neglect came first. By the time PWE came on the scene, and DIRECTED Cryptic to bring the leveling curve for KDF on par with the UFP through PvE content, it was already too late. They missed their opportunity to fix the game as a 2-faction game.

    It gets worse... They don't even WANT it to be a 2-faction game. They want it to be just one faction: The Alliance. It consists of the Federation, The Klingon Empire, The New Romulan Republic, the Dominion, and various temporal agents representing Federation interests. So technically, even the Federation has become an origin story.[/quote]Part of why The game launched as it was was that Cryptic took over development from Perpetual Entertainment and had to launch the game by a deadline set by Perpetual and live up to commitments made by Perpetual. One of those commitments was to have a multi-faction game. It wasn't "neglect" that made the KDF be partially finished at game launch. KDF started at 8 because the devs didn't have enough time before launch to program a proper KDF tutorial so you started at level 8 with all the stuff a Fed would have gotten playing the tutorial up to that level.
    beltrancollection2_by_marhawkman-dcfhfbp.png
    Talash, Kobor, and Laska were the boffs you got in the original tutorial. Yes, I re-dressed them. The outfits they came with were hideous. (look below at Mirzem, yes, THAT hideous) Thing is, you got told to go to the Boff vendor to get your starter boffs and that was it. No picking them up one at a time as you massacred armies of enemy things, nope, the game just gave you them and a stack of mk2 gear to equip them with.

    Things is... what does that say about the current population of the KDF? Absolutely nothing. Now you have to "earn" the bucket of bolts that pretends to be a starter ship, and you get your Boffs one at a time by completing tutorial story tasks...
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    They're not even the same boffs! Two of them are K'Gan and Ch'gren…. probably. This time I used the Delta Ops intel guys for my away teams as soon as I could and I'm pretty sure some of the boffs you get from the new tutorial are on my candidate roster.

    Anyways.. why is this relevant? Like you said, most people who played the game at launch no longer do for assorted reasons. Post LoR, new KDF players DON'T have a starting experience where they have to climb 4 flights of stairs every single time they have to talk to Jm'pok about the weather! Yes, I remember that quite vividly and it was incredibly annoying! The rest of the Great Hall map was excessively sprawling, but not as bothersome. Truthfully, ESD was equally annoying back then. You had to rezone to walk through doors, and just getting from Beam-in to Quinn's office had two of them! Yeah the current ESD is 3.1. It's been drastically rebuilt twice already.

    Most of the stuff you and others like to whine about from the old days deserve to be forgotten relics of the past. Whining about how much the KDF sucked prior to LoR doesn't make things better because it's irrelevant.
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
    Costume_marhawkman_Tsin%27xing_CC_Comic_Page_Blue_488916968.jpg
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