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A small suggestion for PVP

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  • baddmoonrizinbaddmoonrizin Member Posts: 8,345 Community Moderator
    Sounds like pryor is trolling in-game and on the forum. :unamused:
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  • echattyechatty Member Posts: 5,743 Arc User
    You said it, BMR
    Now a LTS and loving it.

    Just because you spend money on this game, it does not entitle you to be a jerk if things don't go your way.

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  • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 9,427 Arc User
    patrickngo wrote: »
    patrickngo wrote: »
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    patrickngo wrote: »
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    rattler2 wrote: »
    where2r1 wrote: »
    The reason PvP is disliked by a lot of players is: it has become a very expensive game of the "Haves" vs. the "Have Nots". But there are plenty of players out there who want to PvP in this game...and for it to become more balanced. But the way it stands now...not so much. And it may not be fixable right now.

    This is pretty much true. PvP is the domain of people who have specialized in builds designed to vape you in a single pass. Usually involving spending a crapton of ECs, Dilithium, and even Zen and Lobi to get that level of power. Min/Maxing to the point the casual PvPer can't even survive a single attack in a cruiser. PvP as it stands now is literally full of alpha strike oneshots. You get spotted, you die. No ifs, ands, or buts. You. DIE.

    That is not fun. Especially for the player on the recieving end. It doesn't matter if the players are the same level. The builds and gear are what make vape ships so powerful. Combine that with player skill... EVERYTHING dies in a single pass, with little to no warning, let alone reaction time. Now some people can TRY to argue that all you need to survive an alpha striker is Tac Team... but that is not true because the sheer amount of spike damage can slice right through shields, hit hull, and kill you.

    Now if there was a way to have people of similar skill levels and builds match up... then maybe it would be worth it. But right now, with the free for all we have... its not even worth the effort to try. There is just too much of a disparity in power to balance anything in PvP.

    Vaping is so last season. And there are so many hard counters to with invulnerability stacking actually. High end PvP is a team game however. Which is a problem. A group of say 3 hardcore PvPers group up and sign up for a match. They have a mega control ship that will placate and mega wells you. A drain boat running tykens, energy siphon and polaron weapons. And a vaper. Even if you have a good PvP ship with all the proper immunities running, unless you have those same quality team mates able to work together, you will lose. And lose badly. Like can't do jack all nothing badly. So not only do you need a good ship...which can be quite expensive to get...you NEED a good team.

    Let's put it like it really is; there are roughly 25 people in the game who are willing to spend the investments in time, money, etc. to build the kind of ship necessary, and have actually bothered to stay long enough to build a team at all, much less the well-oiled machine you're describing. There's maybe 100 more who have at least started, but aren't getting any traction in one or the other side of that. MAYBE 1000 worldwide who would be interested-if they had 40 hours a week to grind for gear and a contacts list full of active players (most lists are full of names, very few are active.)

    There is no room or chance for casual players to try it out, like it, and get hooked enough to give a sh*t about it. The ones that might have have met 15 or so of that initial 25, and the meeting was about as fun as ramming a red-hot-brazier into your sinuses, because of the remaining 10 or so, maybe 2 are willing to show anyone the ropes-and that's assuming teh someone in question has 40 hours a week to devotedly grind, plus access to a credit card that isn't overdrawn already or has a spending limit high enough to buy enough Lobi and Dilithium and so on to even bother to get half kitted.

    and don't fool yourself-this is by design. The Developers did a fantastic job of passive-aggressively killing the good PvP community we had in 2012, leaving exactly the stereotype they wanted-sociopathic basement dwelling douchebag min/maxers.

    after Delta Rising, it simply became a 'never going to happen' that PvP could ever be anything but a sport for the antisocial basement-dwelling trolls who are also free-spending whales that grind like the game is their job and they're on mandatory overtime.

    in simple terms, STO's PvP community is now comprised of people that couldn't cut it in EvE because they were douchebags there-compared to other EvE players and got blackballed, (that's an insult), or people who simply haven't been here long enough to learn that.

    I've only really started playing since LoR...but I don't think the good PvP community you describe actually existed. Than again, I find most PvP community outside of games that are completely designed around it and nothing else like MOBAs to be quite toxic actually. I mean sure there maybe a good person here and there...but overall, I find them to be quite terrible, The main reason I didn't get into PvP in this game was because of the community I ran into...not that I have anything in particular against PvP. Or that PvP was that broken...at least back than. I mean it wasn't great...but it isn't what it is now. Now the vanilla PvP...that was something great. Basically what is needed for a good PvP community is a PvP ruleset that negates any ability to P2W or even G2W. Which would be completely against cryptic...or most none PvP only game's money making model. But it is VITAL if you want to have a PvP community that isn't gonna be full on toxic.

    As for the PvP players that are left now being blackballed EVE players...not quite. Honestly, you need to be do something REALLY bad for that level of douchebaggery. I mean the people who ripped off THOUSANDS of people in their corps of literally tens if not hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of stuff aren't even blackballed. They are even congratulated in some circles there on their epic betrayal. The PvP players here are here because that can't handle PvP in EVE. Soon to be 100% more grind and 100% more P2W as they got bought out by a korean grinder company. And yeah I play BDO...the level of P2W AND grind you need to PvP in that game is at some stupid levels. And the PvPers there make even what is left of the PvPers in STO look down right friendly. I expect EVE to take a turn for the worse in their community friendliness....
    I PvPed before Legacy of Romulus (maybe year before it launched), and I think there was some good time to be had, but the continuing addition of power creep and imbalanced items just made it too unfun.
    I gave up on the game entirely for about 2 years, when the Dyson Sphere content hit the game. And I haven't PvPed in any meaningful capacity again.


    If everyone that currently queues up for Red Alert would PvP instead (completely unrealistic, I know), the PvP Diehards and Tryhards would be mostly irrelevant, since there are so much more average and noob layers around that the chances of meeting them is still slim. But there is no incentive to do PvP in the game.

    Maybe the best thing would be a PvP match granting you 10 Marks per Minute of Play, for a maximum of 120, with a winner getting +10 Marks and 1 Elite Mark, with some AFK Penalty/Detection system to ensure that people don't just sit it out.

    you're trying to apply constructive, reasoned solutions to a situation that was intentionally created and cultivated, Mustrum. It speaks well of your rationality, but fails for the same reason every proposal wrt that topic does-that is, you're trying to solve a problem that is intentionally created, and thus, not seen as a problem.

    you know, "Not a bug, it's a feature".

    I know, but my inner system and game designer just can't stop from doing work.
    In the end, PvP is (un)dead, and their only idea was to revive it with a system that's almost but not entirely unlike PvP (Competitive Queue) that didn't do anything about the actual PvP Queues (Task Forces in the future?) failed. But they sure spend a lot of effort on it. They are not going to do that again.


    Though I really think they should alter their reward scheme to some kind of time-based one. Give x Dilithium/Marks per Minute of Play, for any Queue. Whether it's individual play time or average play of the last n matches server-wide I leave up to them. [/off-topic]

    I think time is a Major factor, but I kind of think maybe how it's being approached is wrong.

    bear with me, please....

    fifteen minute bout, which can be shortened by one side getting 15 kills.

    Score on Kill/death ratio, partial score for heals(Other), debuffs, and disables.

    Base score of 0/0, points awarded for kills and/or other objectives.

    divide the scoring so that there's a 'team score' based on the usual kills, but individual bonuses based on performance.

    no score cap.

    basically, if you don't do anything, at BEST you'll get the team-score as a reward. tossing heals gives x/n points, buffing a teammate gives x/(n*1.5), and assisting kills gets x/(n*2), while delivering kills gets x bonus (marks, dilithium, whatever).

    Kill/death ratio modifies your bonus score, reducing your bonus scoring by 1/10 x after tabulation during the cooldown period after the bout.

    The Team score is based on a formula;

    10 marks for each kill by a team member,modified by a formula that increases the amount by how close the outcome is. The closer the split between teams, the higher the total team score. aka your team score goes up if the fight is close, and heavily contested, and goes down if it's a 'walk' for one side or the other. The losing team gets 1/2 the winning team's total as 'consolation money', but individual members may pick up high individual payouts equal to or greater than their losing team's total payout as an MVP score.

    meaning you can lose the bout as a team, but if you played really hard you can still rack out more than you would doing a red alert for the same amount of time, and depending on K/D ratio, you could come home with more than you'd get running an Elite STF for the same rewards.

    but if you bunk it, AFK, whatever, (get knocked out and stay out) you'll get LESS than the team's reward-you'll get zip, nada, nothing.

    and set spawn zones within weapons range as "Instant death zones" with a removal of kill scores. Your team goes in for deployment suppression, and you die, cause of death being "He's dead jim" and no pay, insta-kill, does 'Critical parts damage' (Red box on your UI to every system) and a scaling delay on respawn beginning at 1 minute and doubling each subsequent time you go into the other team's spawn zone.

    (First offense 1 minute, 2nd 2 minutes, third four, fourth eight, and so on.)

    intent: the reward structure laid out here rewards two things; Playing hard, and seeking out tougher opponents to play hard against. the intent is that the really GOOD rewards are reserved for good matches and the token reward is for bunked matches, with a built in penalty for going AFK.

    'bunked' means matches that are fundamentally unequal-a premade chew-toying a pug made of newbies is still a bunk match. since the time frame is 'timered' you don't get the endless match, (people complain about that) and since it's also got a kill limit, you can speed it up for speed runs-but, an unequal speed run isn't going to pay out like a hard fought match will-it won't even get close.

    the 'individual' bonuses encourage hardcores to take newbies under their wing to be rock-stars (that is, taking charge of puggies, newbies, etc in order to bump up your own, individual, bonus rewards or 'carry the team' to victory-or at least a not-embarrassing or humiliating defeat.)

    in my scenario, a dedicated Healer on a Healer build could end up taking home fairly good rewards in a disorganized pug, by keeping the clueless guys alive and providing some direction, even in the event of a loss by the team.

    The "No deployment suppression" penalty is draconian on purpose. YOu lose rewards and you have to get your ride healed afterward. This is to encourage 'churn'. The structure for team rewards is set up to reward the MOST for a closer fight-aka 14/15 will reward significantly more than 15/0, which in turn, encourages 'churn' and dynamic player behaviours.

    and, finally, no rewards for private matches.

    Matches should queue up, without pre-arrangement, except in the event of a Cryptic-sponsored tournament event.

    PM's for training, for learning, for drilling? sure, but they don't give you squat. only Queued matches count for points/marks/dilithium.

    This solves the "Strip your shields and engines off for efficient reward generation" exploit that got all the rewards yanked from PvP in the first place.
    The rewards have not been "yanked" from PvP at any time. They are just not a time-efficient way to farm dilithium anymore, even in cooperative private queues, because fast PvE like CCA is so much better.


    As for your rather complicated idea to "solve" the cooperative farming "exploit," it does no such thing. It would just mean players would aim to hit 15/14 as fast as possible, rather than 15/0. It is not possible to come up with a reward scheme in which it would not be beneficial to cooperate. Whatever conditions you imagine, the players can always just deliberately aim for them.

    Nor does disqualifying private queues help any. As long as players can communicate at all before or during the game, they can cooperate.
  • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 9,427 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    ruinthefun wrote: »
    warpangel wrote: »
    The rewards have not been "yanked" from PvP at any time.
    No, they really did get yanked. You used to be able to engage in as much PvP as you wanted, now it's limited to 3 rounds max per day.
    Yes, I've heard they raised the cooldown on the non-daily wrapper at some point. But the wrappers are still there and still give the same reward. I never did it more than one set per day per toon anyway, because without the daily you would only get half the reward and only the daily counted for accolades.

    I never even noticed when they raised the cooldown. All I remember was when they disqualified private queues that had a reduced score cap, which was also of little consequence. It was when the 2,880 for 3 runs was overwhelmed by CCA etc giving much more faster than even coop runs could manage, that people stopped playing PvP for dil.

    I've pretty much only done some accolade runs after that.
  • where2r1where2r1 Member Posts: 6,054 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    Last time I was in Ker'rat...it was shortly after they unleashed that slot machine that eats salvage. People were in there actually doing the boring Borg objectives for loot drops. Come to think of it...THAT was the first time I had seen that map "turn over". LOL!

    Time before that, I did catch some PvP...it was, like at 3:30pm in the afternoon. Definitely, puts it in the realm of "after classes" are over. I could not stay and watch for long...since I had to start dinner.

    Never see anyone in N'Vak. I only use it when I am too lazy...or don't want to deal with those stupid doors....to start an empire defense to practice. But then I haven't had much time for practice space battles, lately.

    This was before I completely gave up studying PvP all together.
    Post edited by where2r1 on
    "Spend your life doing strange things with weird people." -- UNK

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  • nixie50nixie50 Member Posts: 1,096 Arc User
    azrael605 wrote: »
    > @vetteguy904 said:
    > ummm no. RA is a main soruce of marks for a LOT of casual players. to lock it down to one type is just stupid. NOT EVERYONE PLAYS THE PVE QUEUES other than the RAs.

    Which is exactly why they need to yank choice marks from all non-event queues.

    to TRIBBLE over casual players who don't do well in your precious borg stfs and get ridiculed for trying? I've tried them three times and i got "Fing noob, Learn to play, and you suck so bad just quit. I know i am not alone. you TRIBBLE over casual players and even RAs will take 20 minutes to fill
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  • nixie50nixie50 Member Posts: 1,096 Arc User
    wast33 wrote: »
    btw, things ever "nerfed for pvp" is one of the wide spreadest fairytales i ever heard lol! interested? check it up and in like all the cases it boils down to "NOT WAI" (the line these people always overread lol)!!! perfect example: ionic turbulence...

    I'll see your ionic turbulence with RSP's nerf history.

    um.. BS. once upon a time Feedback pulse had major shield penetration ability, and a quick player would pop feedback pulse and reverse shild polarity and the vaper escorts would pop themselves. the nerfs to bot FBP and RSP were a DIRECT nerf from the PvP community crying like my 4 year old
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  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,231 Arc User
    nixie50 wrote: »
    azrael605 wrote: »
    > @vetteguy904 said:
    > ummm no. RA is a main soruce of marks for a LOT of casual players. to lock it down to one type is just stupid. NOT EVERYONE PLAYS THE PVE QUEUES other than the RAs.

    Which is exactly why they need to yank choice marks from all non-event queues.
    to **** over casual players who don't do well in your precious borg stfs and get ridiculed for trying? I've tried them three times and i got "Fing noob, Learn to play, and you suck so bad just quit. I know i am not alone. you **** over casual players and even RAs will take 20 minutes to fill
    I'm not gonna say things like that NEVER happen, but I'm pretty sure it's not normal...
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
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  • echattyechatty Member Posts: 5,743 Arc User
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    pryor#5476 wrote: »
    patrickngo, baddmoonrizin, echatty....... I would like to humbly invite you to Kerrat tonight, I will be playing on the KDF side

    echatty is very much against PvP play herself. Patrick is a KDF main. Not sure on BMR.

    coldnapalm is right. I don't do PvP, not even for the Endeavor.

    But you who like it have fun with it. While I may be against it, I do not begrudge those who are not and enjoy it.
    Now a LTS and loving it.

    Just because you spend money on this game, it does not entitle you to be a jerk if things don't go your way.

    xp8s7wd.jpg
  • echattyechatty Member Posts: 5,743 Arc User
    I have to say that I've seen the disrespect in chat when people ask questions. Generally I try to help, no matter how simple the question is, but others will simply disrespect and tease them for asking 'stupid' questions.
    Now a LTS and loving it.

    Just because you spend money on this game, it does not entitle you to be a jerk if things don't go your way.

    xp8s7wd.jpg
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 56,299 Community Moderator
    Zone Chat is a good example of how "helpful" people can be. Frickin' cess pit of rants and politics. Every once in a while you get a good convo, but generally its the domain of Trolls out for a good laugh.
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    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
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  • echattyechatty Member Posts: 5,743 Arc User
    Yeah. It was full of gaybashing today when I was on. Not much of interest at all. I just glance at it now and then to see if anything useful pops up, but that's as rare as a hen giving birth instead of laying eggs.
    Now a LTS and loving it.

    Just because you spend money on this game, it does not entitle you to be a jerk if things don't go your way.

    xp8s7wd.jpg
  • trennantrennan Member Posts: 2,839 Arc User
    rattler2 wrote: »
    Zone Chat is a good example of how "helpful" people can be. Frickin' cess pit of rants and politics. Every once in a while you get a good convo, but generally its the domain of Trolls out for a good laugh.

    Only on ESD and in the Beta quad. Which is why I refuse to hang out there. I'll spend my time elsewhere. Like DS9, Alpha quad, Drozana, anywhere but those two places.

    But as other's have stated, PvP is, unfortunately, dead. It's death started back when Geko's precious Excelsior was popped like a zit in PvP the day after it's release. I, and several others can vouch for this, DS9 chat was active, and it was hilarious. Even more so the day of and after the pod cast, or stream, in which Geko went off on an angry rant about it. This was the beginning of the end for PvP.

    But, like the other old school players that were around at that time, I myself having picked the game up the day it went free to play. I had friends of all genres back then. I had a nearly full friend list of PvPer's, PvEer's. and PvXer's. Back when you could get PvP gear as drops in missions and such. The community was more helpful than now. Getting help with ship builds, captain builds, gear and mark farming was as simple as asking in zone chat. If you were willing to learn, there was always someone willing to help. Now the community is more toxic than ever before. Where most of the helpful players keep to themselves, or keep to their fleets.

    Be that as it is, I do see few good suggestions in the thread here. Which, I'm glad to see others showing an interesting in trying to help PvP. We've had several discussion over the years about that very thing, with some very good suggestions on how it could be done. This is one of those discussions that comes up yearly, or even twice a year. Unfortunately, like all the suggestions that have come before, these will be swept into the trash can and forgotten.

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  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,231 Arc User
    trennan wrote: »
    rattler2 wrote: »
    Zone Chat is a good example of how "helpful" people can be. Frickin' cess pit of rants and politics. Every once in a while you get a good convo, but generally its the domain of Trolls out for a good laugh.
    Only on ESD and in the Beta quad. Which is why I refuse to hang out there. I'll spend my time elsewhere. Like DS9, Alpha quad, Drozana, anywhere but those two places.
    Enh, that sort of thing comes and goes. It's pretty much any zone that's busy.
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
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  • adz006adz006 Member Posts: 125 Arc User
    I'm surprised the investors aren't getting upset with the missed opportunity of another cash cow. Most other games really focus on pvp and its usually its bread and butter.
  • mneme0mneme0 Member Posts: 498 Arc User
    I'd be fine with just getting the challenge thing fixed so my son and I can "duel"; he's 5 and he's been really sad about it.
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,231 Arc User
    patrickngo wrote: »
    adz006 wrote: »
    I'm surprised the investors aren't getting upset with the missed opportunity of another cash cow. Most other games really focus on pvp and its usually its bread and butter.
    One of Al Rivera's statements circa 2011 could help clear that up, Adz. He set a goal of proving that an MMO doesn't need PvP to be healthy and survive.

    we're seven years later, and officially, STO is doing just fine thanks.
    Aside from EVE, how many games are there where PvP actually drives the game? MMOs are built for PvE first, PvP is an add on after the fact.
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
    Costume_marhawkman_Tsin%27xing_CC_Comic_Page_Blue_488916968.jpg
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