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A small suggestion for PVP

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  • dracounguisdracounguis Member Posts: 5,358 Arc User
    How about the other side...
    I hate PvP and how many games out there are 90-100% PvP?
    Do I go on their forum and complain about no PvE? No.

    With my complete game making ignorance, I assume making a PvP game is easy vs a PvE one with plot and story and progression. All PvP needs is a map to play on and guns to pew pew with. :D
  • wast33wast33 Member Posts: 1,855 Arc User
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    patrickngo wrote: »
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    rattler2 wrote: »
    where2r1 wrote: »
    The reason PvP is disliked by a lot of players is: it has become a very expensive game of the "Haves" vs. the "Have Nots". But there are plenty of players out there who want to PvP in this game...and for it to become more balanced. But the way it stands now...not so much. And it may not be fixable right now.

    This is pretty much true. PvP is the domain of people who have specialized in builds designed to vape you in a single pass. Usually involving spending a crapton of ECs, Dilithium, and even Zen and Lobi to get that level of power. Min/Maxing to the point the casual PvPer can't even survive a single attack in a cruiser. PvP as it stands now is literally full of alpha strike oneshots. You get spotted, you die. No ifs, ands, or buts. You. DIE.

    That is not fun. Especially for the player on the recieving end. It doesn't matter if the players are the same level. The builds and gear are what make vape ships so powerful. Combine that with player skill... EVERYTHING dies in a single pass, with little to no warning, let alone reaction time. Now some people can TRY to argue that all you need to survive an alpha striker is Tac Team... but that is not true because the sheer amount of spike damage can slice right through shields, hit hull, and kill you.

    Now if there was a way to have people of similar skill levels and builds match up... then maybe it would be worth it. But right now, with the free for all we have... its not even worth the effort to try. There is just too much of a disparity in power to balance anything in PvP.

    Vaping is so last season. And there are so many hard counters to with invulnerability stacking actually. High end PvP is a team game however. Which is a problem. A group of say 3 hardcore PvPers group up and sign up for a match. They have a mega control ship that will placate and mega wells you. A drain boat running tykens, energy siphon and polaron weapons. And a vaper. Even if you have a good PvP ship with all the proper immunities running, unless you have those same quality team mates able to work together, you will lose. And lose badly. Like can't do jack all nothing badly. So not only do you need a good ship...which can be quite expensive to get...you NEED a good team.

    Let's put it like it really is; there are roughly 25 people in the game who are willing to spend the investments in time, money, etc. to build the kind of ship necessary, and have actually bothered to stay long enough to build a team at all, much less the well-oiled machine you're describing. There's maybe 100 more who have at least started, but aren't getting any traction in one or the other side of that. MAYBE 1000 worldwide who would be interested-if they had 40 hours a week to grind for gear and a contacts list full of active players (most lists are full of names, very few are active.)

    There is no room or chance for casual players to try it out, like it, and get hooked enough to give a sh*t about it. The ones that might have have met 15 or so of that initial 25, and the meeting was about as fun as ramming a red-hot-brazier into your sinuses, because of the remaining 10 or so, maybe 2 are willing to show anyone the ropes-and that's assuming teh someone in question has 40 hours a week to devotedly grind, plus access to a credit card that isn't overdrawn already or has a spending limit high enough to buy enough Lobi and Dilithium and so on to even bother to get half kitted.

    and don't fool yourself-this is by design. The Developers did a fantastic job of passive-aggressively killing the good PvP community we had in 2012, leaving exactly the stereotype they wanted-sociopathic basement dwelling douchebag min/maxers.

    after Delta Rising, it simply became a 'never going to happen' that PvP could ever be anything but a sport for the antisocial basement-dwelling trolls who are also free-spending whales that grind like the game is their job and they're on mandatory overtime.

    in simple terms, STO's PvP community is now comprised of people that couldn't cut it in EvE because they were douchebags there-compared to other EvE players and got blackballed, (that's an insult), or people who simply haven't been here long enough to learn that.

    I've only really started playing since LoR...[...]

    ...explains just so much!


    patrickngo wrote: »
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    patrickngo wrote: »
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    rattler2 wrote: »
    where2r1 wrote: »
    The reason PvP is disliked by a lot of players is: it has become a very expensive game of the "Haves" vs. the "Have Nots". But there are plenty of players out there who want to PvP in this game...and for it to become more balanced. But the way it stands now...not so much. And it may not be fixable right now.

    This is pretty much true. PvP is the domain of people who have specialized in builds designed to vape you in a single pass. Usually involving spending a crapton of ECs, Dilithium, and even Zen and Lobi to get that level of power. Min/Maxing to the point the casual PvPer can't even survive a single attack in a cruiser. PvP as it stands now is literally full of alpha strike oneshots. You get spotted, you die. No ifs, ands, or buts. You. DIE.

    That is not fun. Especially for the player on the recieving end. It doesn't matter if the players are the same level. The builds and gear are what make vape ships so powerful. Combine that with player skill... EVERYTHING dies in a single pass, with little to no warning, let alone reaction time. Now some people can TRY to argue that all you need to survive an alpha striker is Tac Team... but that is not true because the sheer amount of spike damage can slice right through shields, hit hull, and kill you.

    Now if there was a way to have people of similar skill levels and builds match up... then maybe it would be worth it. But right now, with the free for all we have... its not even worth the effort to try. There is just too much of a disparity in power to balance anything in PvP.

    Vaping is so last season. And there are so many hard counters to with invulnerability stacking actually. High end PvP is a team game however. Which is a problem. A group of say 3 hardcore PvPers group up and sign up for a match. They have a mega control ship that will placate and mega wells you. A drain boat running tykens, energy siphon and polaron weapons. And a vaper. Even if you have a good PvP ship with all the proper immunities running, unless you have those same quality team mates able to work together, you will lose. And lose badly. Like can't do jack all nothing badly. So not only do you need a good ship...which can be quite expensive to get...you NEED a good team.

    Let's put it like it really is; there are roughly 25 people in the game who are willing to spend the investments in time, money, etc. to build the kind of ship necessary, and have actually bothered to stay long enough to build a team at all, much less the well-oiled machine you're describing. There's maybe 100 more who have at least started, but aren't getting any traction in one or the other side of that. MAYBE 1000 worldwide who would be interested-if they had 40 hours a week to grind for gear and a contacts list full of active players (most lists are full of names, very few are active.)

    There is no room or chance for casual players to try it out, like it, and get hooked enough to give a sh*t about it. The ones that might have have met 15 or so of that initial 25, and the meeting was about as fun as ramming a red-hot-brazier into your sinuses, because of the remaining 10 or so, maybe 2 are willing to show anyone the ropes-and that's assuming teh someone in question has 40 hours a week to devotedly grind, plus access to a credit card that isn't overdrawn already or has a spending limit high enough to buy enough Lobi and Dilithium and so on to even bother to get half kitted.

    and don't fool yourself-this is by design. The Developers did a fantastic job of passive-aggressively killing the good PvP community we had in 2012, leaving exactly the stereotype they wanted-sociopathic basement dwelling douchebag min/maxers.

    after Delta Rising, it simply became a 'never going to happen' that PvP could ever be anything but a sport for the antisocial basement-dwelling trolls who are also free-spending whales that grind like the game is their job and they're on mandatory overtime.

    in simple terms, STO's PvP community is now comprised of people that couldn't cut it in EvE because they were douchebags there-compared to other EvE players and got blackballed, (that's an insult), or people who simply haven't been here long enough to learn that.

    I've only really started playing since LoR...but I don't think the good PvP community you describe actually existed. Than again, I find most PvP community outside of games that are completely designed around it and nothing else like MOBAs to be quite toxic actually. I mean sure there maybe a good person here and there...but overall, I find them to be quite terrible, The main reason I didn't get into PvP in this game was because of the community I ran into...not that I have anything in particular against PvP. Or that PvP was that broken...at least back than. I mean it wasn't great...but it isn't what it is now. Now the vanilla PvP...that was something great. Basically what is needed for a good PvP community is a PvP ruleset that negates any ability to P2W or even G2W. Which would be completely against cryptic...or most none PvP only game's money making model. But it is VITAL if you want to have a PvP community that isn't gonna be full on toxic.

    As for the PvP players that are left now being blackballed EVE players...not quite. Honestly, you need to be do something REALLY bad for that level of douchebaggery. I mean the people who ripped off THOUSANDS of people in their corps of literally tens if not hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of stuff aren't even blackballed. They are even congratulated in some circles there on their epic betrayal. The PvP players here are here because that can't handle PvP in EVE. Soon to be 100% more grind and 100% more P2W as they got bought out by a korean grinder company. And yeah I play BDO...the level of P2W AND grind you need to PvP in that game is at some stupid levels. And the PvPers there make even what is left of the PvPers in STO look down right friendly. I expect EVE to take a turn for the worse in their community friendliness....

    we actually had a fairly active, casual-friendly PvP community from about 2011 to late 2013, and it was recovering in mid-late 2014 before Delta dropped and finished it off, CN.

    by 'fairly good' I mean specifically that Trolls were the minority, most of the dedicated PvP'ers weren't looking for easy kills on brand-new players, we had ongoing, repeating player-organized tourneys (and they were advertised and public), we had pvp players who didn't 'hide' it when they found an exploit or flaw in the rules, they let everyone know in public forums, tested things in the open and produced how-to documents and videos, and advised new players.

    You missed a lot of that if you only started with Legacy of Romulus, because that was teh first real hit the PvP community took after free-to-play rolled out.

    You missed factional PvP fleets that had actual rivalries, fought battles for pride, faction, and bragging rights. you missed out on a time when fifteen minutes, on a weeknight, when even the STF's were slow, was a long wait for a PvP (pug) queue, you missed matches that hinged on shot-callers, debuffs, reflexes, and teamwork because even a random PUG could be dangerous to a premade if they happened to ring in a few experienced guys.

    in that time, you could be viable with drop gear, at Mk XI, if you kept your wits, nobody had uncounterable powers or stacked immunities or chained disables. There were 'unwritten rules' like "one on one over Cracked" where if anyone came in on a fight, everyone on the map was on the violator's ****, even to the point of feds switching toons (or using the bug to switch sides to 'red fed'), and people even did it at low levels, Ker'rat was busy all day, and all night, at all available levels.

    this is a time that is gone forever, it's not coming back. The demise was intentional. Geko was on a crusade to prove an MMO didn't need PvP to be profitable, and he did everything he could to make sure that PvP would die-die-die-die-die-die-die.

    He promoted the idea that PvP players were douchebags, that they were (quote) "Fourteen year old min/maxers living in their mother's basement" and then he pushed to make that the reality, and Borticus helped him KEEP it that reality.


    ...flames and honor, miss it a lot :((...

    How about the other side...
    I hate PvP and how many games out there are 90-100% PvP?
    Do I go on their forum and complain about no PvE? No.

    With my complete game making ignorance, I assume making a PvP game is easy vs a PvE one with plot and story and progression. All PvP needs is a map to play on and guns to pew pew with. :D


    ... and here we go with a perfect example for the hipocrisy mentality and blindness on this forum regarding the matter. there's no logic, there's just "hate" (not my words...)....
    and in the end that's the ONLY reason we can't have nice things in here. lots of really good players (way better than i ever was) in premium fleets argumented for YEARS, provided free testing and bug hunting for years and such....


    btw, things ever "nerfed for pvp" is one of the wide spreadest fairytales i ever heard lol! interested? check it up and in like all the cases it boils down to "NOT WAI" (the line these people always overread lol)!!! perfect example: ionic turbulence...
    next tale is the one about "useful in pve".... kinda all the cases were on powers worthless in pve. people simply cried for powercreep, and that's what they did get.

    anyhow, back to wows. have a nice pve q lol

    (inb4 senseless "toxic pvper" posts from people who proved to be a hell lot more of toxic than i ever could be and just simply can't reflect in different perspectives!)
    #kkbbthx
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,231 Arc User
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    I've only really started playing since LoR...but I don't think the good PvP community you describe actually existed. Than again, I find most PvP community outside of games that are completely designed around it and nothing else like MOBAs to be quite toxic actually. I mean sure there maybe a good person here and there...but overall, I find them to be quite terrible, The main reason I didn't get into PvP in this game was because of the community I ran into...not that I have anything in particular against PvP. Or that PvP was that broken...at least back than. I mean it wasn't great...but it isn't what it is now. Now the vanilla PvP...that was something great. Basically what is needed for a good PvP community is a PvP ruleset that negates any ability to P2W or even G2W. Which would be completely against cryptic...or most none PvP only game's money making model. But it is VITAL if you want to have a PvP community that isn't gonna be full on toxic.
    I've been playing since the Breen invasion was new content... PvP was never "casual friendly". Prior to dil being added to the game PvP was strictly for bragging rights, and casuals had no reason to even bother with it since realistically it didn't actually have any rewards. (technically you could collect medals and trade those for gear, but it was purple 10 gear, and that was junk even back then, also it was expensive) When dil got added, PvP had a functional reward, but if you PUGed PvP you were probably gonna get ganked by someone in a specialized build. Often TEAMs of them since you could team queue for PvP matches.

    The only time I ever bothered was for fleet events where all we really did was grind dilithium and didn't care who died. We had a loosely enforced rule about not using defensive abilities or heals. Why? because there was no reason to care about winning or losing. We were just doing it for the dil and no-defense meant it got finished faster.
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
    Costume_marhawkman_Tsin%27xing_CC_Comic_Page_Blue_488916968.jpg
  • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 9,427 Arc User
    The only time I ever bothered was for fleet events where all we really did was grind dilithium and didn't care who died. We had a loosely enforced rule about not using defensive abilities or heals. Why? because there was no reason to care about winning or losing. We were just doing it for the dil and no-defense meant it got finished faster.
    Same here. Except when we did it, we were a whole lot more...efficient about getting it over as fast as possible. B)
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,231 Arc User
    rattler2 wrote: »
    pryor#5476 wrote: »
    otherwise its about having fun and making the other team your BI**H'es............ Camp their spawn area lol.... luer a bunch of Borg into their Spawn area, things like that....... it's fun.
    Lines like that don't make Ker'rat attractive. Joking or not, that's actually highlighting rather deplorable and unsportsmanlike conduct. Not only that... the team on the recieving end is getting spawn camped, and being destroyed before they can even blink. Would you consider that fun if you were on the recieving end?

    I've been on that one time in a Halo: CE server, combined with insults being thrown at my team for our lack of skill... while they bombarded our base with tanks. So I have a pretty good reason to call BS.
    A long time ago in the dark days when purple 12 gear was only available as random loot drops, you could get random loot drops from killing the Borg in Ker'rat that, if you were lucky, would sell for as much as a lockbox ship does now(adjusted for inflation). The idea behind the zone was to make people fight over loot drops. Spawn camping was just for the ---ishness. In a way, it is an ancient precursor to Comp rep.
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
    Costume_marhawkman_Tsin%27xing_CC_Comic_Page_Blue_488916968.jpg
  • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 9,427 Arc User
    rattler2 wrote: »
    pryor#5476 wrote: »
    otherwise its about having fun and making the other team your BI**H'es............ Camp their spawn area lol.... luer a bunch of Borg into their Spawn area, things like that....... it's fun.
    Lines like that don't make Ker'rat attractive. Joking or not, that's actually highlighting rather deplorable and unsportsmanlike conduct. Not only that... the team on the recieving end is getting spawn camped, and being destroyed before they can even blink. Would you consider that fun if you were on the recieving end?

    I've been on that one time in a Halo: CE server, combined with insults being thrown at my team for our lack of skill... while they bombarded our base with tanks. So I have a pretty good reason to call BS.
    A long time ago in the dark days when purple 12 gear was only available as random loot drops, you could get random loot drops from killing the Borg in Ker'rat that, if you were lucky, would sell for as much as a lockbox ship does now(adjusted for inflation). The idea behind the zone was to make people fight over loot drops. Spawn camping was just for the ---ishness. In a way, it is an ancient precursor to Comp rep.
    The way I remember it, there was a whole lot LESS fighting in Ker'rat back then. It was always better for rewards to switch to the winning team rather than try to fight against them. And if you wanted to do the dil wrapper on the "wrong" side, it was better to just AFK the whole thing. You'd get the same credit for finishing the scenario even if it was on the losing team, so slowing the winning side down would just slow down your own paycheck.

    The PvPers would usually let the people doing the scenario objectives go about their business uncontested, since faster resets meant more rewards for everyone.
  • dracounguisdracounguis Member Posts: 5,358 Arc User
    wast33 wrote: »
    btw, things ever "nerfed for pvp" is one of the wide spreadest fairytales i ever heard lol! interested? check it up and in like all the cases it boils down to "NOT WAI" (the line these people always overread lol)!!! perfect example: ionic turbulence...

    I'll see your ionic turbulence with RSP's nerf history.

  • ucgsquawk#5883 ucgsquawk Member Posts: 279 Arc User
    PvP would actually be easy to start up I think but would require dev time which is going to st:d for the next while.

    You could start a tiered league. You start at tier one with tier one ships and low level weapons etc, no fancy console just the basic low level stuff.

    After you win through the tier 1league you CAN move up to the next, etc etc. With each level unlocking new equipment allowed etc.
    When you reach tier 6 the gloves are off and you use anything you want, make a build and use it.
    By using the tiered system players would be able to try out PvP in a controlled setting at low level and learn basics where everyone is roughly equal on equipment...you build your way up from there to higher levels and so your build and skill go up as well. No one is forced against a ship equipped way out of their league unless they chose it...and you go into whichever PvP ''zone" matches the tier you want.
    However you can't jump to a higher level until you've worked your way through the lower levels...this will naturally slow weaker players and put people into the tier they're most suited for.

    This way the pros still get their uber builds and everyone else can try it at a more comfortable level...I think some of the more limited low tier battles would be a lot of fun actually.

    Just my take on it.
  • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 9,427 Arc User
    PvP would actually be easy to start up I think but would require dev time which is going to st:d for the next while.

    You could start a tiered league. You start at tier one with tier one ships and low level weapons etc, no fancy console just the basic low level stuff.

    After you win through the tier 1league you CAN move up to the next, etc etc. With each level unlocking new equipment allowed etc.
    When you reach tier 6 the gloves are off and you use anything you want, make a build and use it.
    By using the tiered system players would be able to try out PvP in a controlled setting at low level and learn basics where everyone is roughly equal on equipment...you build your way up from there to higher levels and so your build and skill go up as well. No one is forced against a ship equipped way out of their league unless they chose it...and you go into whichever PvP ''zone" matches the tier you want.
    However you can't jump to a higher level until you've worked your way through the lower levels...this will naturally slow weaker players and put people into the tier they're most suited for.

    This way the pros still get their uber builds and everyone else can try it at a more comfortable level...I think some of the more limited low tier battles would be a lot of fun actually.

    Just my take on it.
    Yes, it would be easy to start up. What it would really take, is rewards people want.

    But they're never going to do anything at all about PvP. Even when they actually talked about doing something with PvP, back when the competitive rep was added, in the end they did absolutely nothing.
  • where2r1where2r1 Member Posts: 6,054 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    Or...a even more simple solution...have all that power creep stripped off and only use PvP only items which are the stats as say common mark XII gear and PvP only boff powers and have everything else, like traits, doffs and such be removed. There super simple and easy solution, They won't even do something that stupid easy. What you suggest is way...WAY beyond what they will do for PvP.

    There would have to be an infusion of new stuff every so often.
    So, new tactics can be developed and applied by players...or else PvP will become static.
    That is why PvPers been asking for new maps.

    If new stuff is blocked....everyone will know what everyone does effectively....and know how to counter. And you end up with what is already in STO...only at a lower cost level and lower power creep level.

    It is a great place to start, though..... maybe they should set up the PvP Endeavors that way.
    "Spend your life doing strange things with weird people." -- UNK

    “Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
  • baddmoonrizinbaddmoonrizin Member Posts: 8,322 Community Moderator
    Or we can just stick to the topic.
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  • ucgsquawk#5883 ucgsquawk Member Posts: 279 Arc User
    Just a note on myself, I've played quite a lot of games over the years but recently i played a lot of world of tanks on the console and by their limited system of ranking I was very highly ranked, I had 3 starred all my tanks (for those who don't play, it's a system for marking your gun barrel showing what percentage you were in for damage done with that vehicle...3 marks was top 20% or something) ...so I am familiar with PvP games.

    I understand of course that with the dev team turning their full attention to the new st:d we won't be seeing any work on PvP. I'm surprised that some say it must have some sort of major reward...why? Offer a choice of some marks or just fleet and competitive...give rewards on a scale with your average bz and you've basically got a controlled PvP bz.
    Players might actually find a lower tier more challenging and enjoyable as well instead of high tier open season.

    I'm a more casual player so I'm happy playing PvE, but I'd very much like to see a PvP system for those who enjoy it if for no other reason than its a good draw for players who enjoy that in a game.
    I know its never going to happen, but for me, what I posted above is what I would consider the ideal system for PvP to not only build a player base as players gain experience as they progress up the tiers, but to maintain a system that's somewhat fair for everyone playing without needing to jump in with a power build right from the start.
  • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 9,427 Arc User
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    pryor#5476 wrote: »
    patrickngo wrote: »
    they'll have it in a rep store with the rep marks in PvE red alerts before the paint dries, Pryor.

    No......... the way it's described above will not only bring action, it will earn a ton of money for the game, rewarded as MK2 with a good chance to make EPIC, they will sell shhiitt tons of R&D Packs...... people trying to get the Promotional Ships, minimum they get the R&D materials & components with at least 1 Research 1.5 that makes it worth while to buy.
    So if you want to UPGRADE the best weapons, break out the credit card......... or break out the pick axe and head for the Dilithum Mines of Rurapenthe.

    Did you not read EVERYTHING patrick has said about the mentality of the devs? THEY WILL NOT DO ANYTHING THAT MAKES ANY REWARDS MERIT BASED.
    Which is why the reward structures are so bad across the board and why there is little reason to play anything at all.

    But more than that, they will absolutely not do anything at all about PvP. When creating the competitive rep they did the work creating a matchmaking system, only to leave it as an insignificant little quirk of the competititive queues that nobody would even notice if they hadn't read about it (and a sorry excuse to impose the still poorly working "Queue Group" -mechanic on ALL the PvE queues). They never even tried it on PvP. Nor did they give compmarks from PvP, despite talking about it.
  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,962 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    patrickngo wrote: »
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    rattler2 wrote: »
    where2r1 wrote: »
    The reason PvP is disliked by a lot of players is: it has become a very expensive game of the "Haves" vs. the "Have Nots". But there are plenty of players out there who want to PvP in this game...and for it to become more balanced. But the way it stands now...not so much. And it may not be fixable right now.

    This is pretty much true. PvP is the domain of people who have specialized in builds designed to vape you in a single pass. Usually involving spending a crapton of ECs, Dilithium, and even Zen and Lobi to get that level of power. Min/Maxing to the point the casual PvPer can't even survive a single attack in a cruiser. PvP as it stands now is literally full of alpha strike oneshots. You get spotted, you die. No ifs, ands, or buts. You. DIE.

    That is not fun. Especially for the player on the recieving end. It doesn't matter if the players are the same level. The builds and gear are what make vape ships so powerful. Combine that with player skill... EVERYTHING dies in a single pass, with little to no warning, let alone reaction time. Now some people can TRY to argue that all you need to survive an alpha striker is Tac Team... but that is not true because the sheer amount of spike damage can slice right through shields, hit hull, and kill you.

    Now if there was a way to have people of similar skill levels and builds match up... then maybe it would be worth it. But right now, with the free for all we have... its not even worth the effort to try. There is just too much of a disparity in power to balance anything in PvP.

    Vaping is so last season. And there are so many hard counters to with invulnerability stacking actually. High end PvP is a team game however. Which is a problem. A group of say 3 hardcore PvPers group up and sign up for a match. They have a mega control ship that will placate and mega wells you. A drain boat running tykens, energy siphon and polaron weapons. And a vaper. Even if you have a good PvP ship with all the proper immunities running, unless you have those same quality team mates able to work together, you will lose. And lose badly. Like can't do jack all nothing badly. So not only do you need a good ship...which can be quite expensive to get...you NEED a good team.

    Let's put it like it really is; there are roughly 25 people in the game who are willing to spend the investments in time, money, etc. to build the kind of ship necessary, and have actually bothered to stay long enough to build a team at all, much less the well-oiled machine you're describing. There's maybe 100 more who have at least started, but aren't getting any traction in one or the other side of that. MAYBE 1000 worldwide who would be interested-if they had 40 hours a week to grind for gear and a contacts list full of active players (most lists are full of names, very few are active.)

    There is no room or chance for casual players to try it out, like it, and get hooked enough to give a sh*t about it. The ones that might have have met 15 or so of that initial 25, and the meeting was about as fun as ramming a red-hot-brazier into your sinuses, because of the remaining 10 or so, maybe 2 are willing to show anyone the ropes-and that's assuming teh someone in question has 40 hours a week to devotedly grind, plus access to a credit card that isn't overdrawn already or has a spending limit high enough to buy enough Lobi and Dilithium and so on to even bother to get half kitted.

    and don't fool yourself-this is by design. The Developers did a fantastic job of passive-aggressively killing the good PvP community we had in 2012, leaving exactly the stereotype they wanted-sociopathic basement dwelling douchebag min/maxers.

    after Delta Rising, it simply became a 'never going to happen' that PvP could ever be anything but a sport for the antisocial basement-dwelling trolls who are also free-spending whales that grind like the game is their job and they're on mandatory overtime.

    in simple terms, STO's PvP community is now comprised of people that couldn't cut it in EvE because they were douchebags there-compared to other EvE players and got blackballed, (that's an insult), or people who simply haven't been here long enough to learn that.

    I've only really started playing since LoR...but I don't think the good PvP community you describe actually existed. Than again, I find most PvP community outside of games that are completely designed around it and nothing else like MOBAs to be quite toxic actually. I mean sure there maybe a good person here and there...but overall, I find them to be quite terrible, The main reason I didn't get into PvP in this game was because of the community I ran into...not that I have anything in particular against PvP. Or that PvP was that broken...at least back than. I mean it wasn't great...but it isn't what it is now. Now the vanilla PvP...that was something great. Basically what is needed for a good PvP community is a PvP ruleset that negates any ability to P2W or even G2W. Which would be completely against cryptic...or most none PvP only game's money making model. But it is VITAL if you want to have a PvP community that isn't gonna be full on toxic.

    As for the PvP players that are left now being blackballed EVE players...not quite. Honestly, you need to be do something REALLY bad for that level of douchebaggery. I mean the people who ripped off THOUSANDS of people in their corps of literally tens if not hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of stuff aren't even blackballed. They are even congratulated in some circles there on their epic betrayal. The PvP players here are here because that can't handle PvP in EVE. Soon to be 100% more grind and 100% more P2W as they got bought out by a korean grinder company. And yeah I play BDO...the level of P2W AND grind you need to PvP in that game is at some stupid levels. And the PvPers there make even what is left of the PvPers in STO look down right friendly. I expect EVE to take a turn for the worse in their community friendliness....
    I PvPed before Legacy of Romulus (maybe year before it launched), and I think there was some good time to be had, but the continuing addition of power creep and imbalanced items just made it too unfun.
    I gave up on the game entirely for about 2 years, when the Dyson Sphere content hit the game. And I haven't PvPed in any meaningful capacity again.


    If everyone that currently queues up for Red Alert would PvP instead (completely unrealistic, I know), the PvP Diehards and Tryhards would be mostly irrelevant, since there are so much more average and noob layers around that the chances of meeting them is still slim. But there is no incentive to do PvP in the game.


    Here's an alternative reward system:
    A match lasts no more than 10 minutes or until one side has scored 15 kills, or if no kill has occured in the last 5 minutes.
    For Every Minute of play, both teams get 5 Marks for each character.
    For every Kill that occurs, both teams get 5 Marks for each character.
    For every Kill that a team scores, the scoring team gets 40,000 EC for each character.
    For every death in its own team, the team loses 1 Mark per each character.
    The Winner gets 10 Marks and 1 Elite Mark as bonus.

    The loser gets 15 Marks less than the winner in this scheme. Not a big penalty, but still some reason to try.
    Total reward potentially 125 Marks, 1 Elite Mark, and 6000,000 EC for a 10 minute match. Winning the match early is no big deal, since you can just queue up again, and gives you a chance to get the winning reward and the kill rewards twice.


    But on the other hand, why bother? STO seems to do fine without PvP, could it really get an influx of people or get a lot of bet if it tried to bother more? Unsurprisingly, the Competitive Rep seems to have helped not at all already, why spend more effort on it?
    Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,962 Arc User
    patrickngo wrote: »
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    patrickngo wrote: »
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    rattler2 wrote: »
    where2r1 wrote: »
    The reason PvP is disliked by a lot of players is: it has become a very expensive game of the "Haves" vs. the "Have Nots". But there are plenty of players out there who want to PvP in this game...and for it to become more balanced. But the way it stands now...not so much. And it may not be fixable right now.

    This is pretty much true. PvP is the domain of people who have specialized in builds designed to vape you in a single pass. Usually involving spending a crapton of ECs, Dilithium, and even Zen and Lobi to get that level of power. Min/Maxing to the point the casual PvPer can't even survive a single attack in a cruiser. PvP as it stands now is literally full of alpha strike oneshots. You get spotted, you die. No ifs, ands, or buts. You. DIE.

    That is not fun. Especially for the player on the recieving end. It doesn't matter if the players are the same level. The builds and gear are what make vape ships so powerful. Combine that with player skill... EVERYTHING dies in a single pass, with little to no warning, let alone reaction time. Now some people can TRY to argue that all you need to survive an alpha striker is Tac Team... but that is not true because the sheer amount of spike damage can slice right through shields, hit hull, and kill you.

    Now if there was a way to have people of similar skill levels and builds match up... then maybe it would be worth it. But right now, with the free for all we have... its not even worth the effort to try. There is just too much of a disparity in power to balance anything in PvP.

    Vaping is so last season. And there are so many hard counters to with invulnerability stacking actually. High end PvP is a team game however. Which is a problem. A group of say 3 hardcore PvPers group up and sign up for a match. They have a mega control ship that will placate and mega wells you. A drain boat running tykens, energy siphon and polaron weapons. And a vaper. Even if you have a good PvP ship with all the proper immunities running, unless you have those same quality team mates able to work together, you will lose. And lose badly. Like can't do jack all nothing badly. So not only do you need a good ship...which can be quite expensive to get...you NEED a good team.

    Let's put it like it really is; there are roughly 25 people in the game who are willing to spend the investments in time, money, etc. to build the kind of ship necessary, and have actually bothered to stay long enough to build a team at all, much less the well-oiled machine you're describing. There's maybe 100 more who have at least started, but aren't getting any traction in one or the other side of that. MAYBE 1000 worldwide who would be interested-if they had 40 hours a week to grind for gear and a contacts list full of active players (most lists are full of names, very few are active.)

    There is no room or chance for casual players to try it out, like it, and get hooked enough to give a sh*t about it. The ones that might have have met 15 or so of that initial 25, and the meeting was about as fun as ramming a red-hot-brazier into your sinuses, because of the remaining 10 or so, maybe 2 are willing to show anyone the ropes-and that's assuming teh someone in question has 40 hours a week to devotedly grind, plus access to a credit card that isn't overdrawn already or has a spending limit high enough to buy enough Lobi and Dilithium and so on to even bother to get half kitted.

    and don't fool yourself-this is by design. The Developers did a fantastic job of passive-aggressively killing the good PvP community we had in 2012, leaving exactly the stereotype they wanted-sociopathic basement dwelling douchebag min/maxers.

    after Delta Rising, it simply became a 'never going to happen' that PvP could ever be anything but a sport for the antisocial basement-dwelling trolls who are also free-spending whales that grind like the game is their job and they're on mandatory overtime.

    in simple terms, STO's PvP community is now comprised of people that couldn't cut it in EvE because they were douchebags there-compared to other EvE players and got blackballed, (that's an insult), or people who simply haven't been here long enough to learn that.

    I've only really started playing since LoR...but I don't think the good PvP community you describe actually existed. Than again, I find most PvP community outside of games that are completely designed around it and nothing else like MOBAs to be quite toxic actually. I mean sure there maybe a good person here and there...but overall, I find them to be quite terrible, The main reason I didn't get into PvP in this game was because of the community I ran into...not that I have anything in particular against PvP. Or that PvP was that broken...at least back than. I mean it wasn't great...but it isn't what it is now. Now the vanilla PvP...that was something great. Basically what is needed for a good PvP community is a PvP ruleset that negates any ability to P2W or even G2W. Which would be completely against cryptic...or most none PvP only game's money making model. But it is VITAL if you want to have a PvP community that isn't gonna be full on toxic.

    As for the PvP players that are left now being blackballed EVE players...not quite. Honestly, you need to be do something REALLY bad for that level of douchebaggery. I mean the people who ripped off THOUSANDS of people in their corps of literally tens if not hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of stuff aren't even blackballed. They are even congratulated in some circles there on their epic betrayal. The PvP players here are here because that can't handle PvP in EVE. Soon to be 100% more grind and 100% more P2W as they got bought out by a korean grinder company. And yeah I play BDO...the level of P2W AND grind you need to PvP in that game is at some stupid levels. And the PvPers there make even what is left of the PvPers in STO look down right friendly. I expect EVE to take a turn for the worse in their community friendliness....
    I PvPed before Legacy of Romulus (maybe year before it launched), and I think there was some good time to be had, but the continuing addition of power creep and imbalanced items just made it too unfun.
    I gave up on the game entirely for about 2 years, when the Dyson Sphere content hit the game. And I haven't PvPed in any meaningful capacity again.


    If everyone that currently queues up for Red Alert would PvP instead (completely unrealistic, I know), the PvP Diehards and Tryhards would be mostly irrelevant, since there are so much more average and noob layers around that the chances of meeting them is still slim. But there is no incentive to do PvP in the game.

    Maybe the best thing would be a PvP match granting you 10 Marks per Minute of Play, for a maximum of 120, with a winner getting +10 Marks and 1 Elite Mark, with some AFK Penalty/Detection system to ensure that people don't just sit it out.

    you're trying to apply constructive, reasoned solutions to a situation that was intentionally created and cultivated, Mustrum. It speaks well of your rationality, but fails for the same reason every proposal wrt that topic does-that is, you're trying to solve a problem that is intentionally created, and thus, not seen as a problem.

    you know, "Not a bug, it's a feature".

    I know, but my inner system and game designer just can't stop from doing work.
    In the end, PvP is (un)dead, and their only idea was to revive it with a system that's almost but not entirely unlike PvP (Competitive Queue) that didn't do anything about the actual PvP Queues (Task Forces in the future?) failed. But they sure spend a lot of effort on it. They are not going to do that again.


    Though I really think they should alter their reward scheme to some kind of time-based one. Give x Dilithium/Marks per Minute of Play, for any Queue. Whether it's individual play time or average play of the last n matches server-wide I leave up to them. [/off-topic]
    Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
  • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 9,427 Arc User
    Here's an alternative reward system:
    A match lasts no more than 10 minutes or until one side has scored 15 kills, or if no kill has occured in the last 5 minutes.
    For Every Minute of play, both teams get 5 Marks for each character.
    For every Kill that occurs, both teams get 5 Marks for each character.
    For every Kill that a team scores, the scoring team gets 40,000 EC for each character.
    For every death in its own team, the team loses 1 Mark per each character.
    The Winner gets 10 Marks and 1 Elite Mark as bonus.

    The loser gets 15 Marks less than the winner in this scheme. Not a big penalty, but still some reason to try.
    Total reward potentially 125 Marks, 1 Elite Mark, and 6000,000 EC for a 10 minute match. Winning the match early is no big deal, since you can just queue up again, and gives you a chance to get the winning reward and the kill rewards twice.
    Which is horribly low for 10 minutes (notice that all queues in the game that last 10+ minutes have poor reward/time, even the event ones counting that 50k batch at the end).

    A more plausible scenario would be one team losing on purpose, as fast as possible, for 65 marks in 1-2 minutes but that's still on the low side unless they're special PvP marks you can't get anywhere else.
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