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Yet Another Idea on How to Eliminate the STO Trinity

salazarrazesalazarraze Member Posts: 3,794 Arc User
So as we all know the basic idea/problem is that Tactical is undeniably better than Engineering and Science almost 100% of the time except for a few niche situations. For simplicity, I'm only going to focus on the space combat for right now. Each character has 6 captain powers in space at level 63. These 6 space powers vary for each class and are the only difference between them in space. Some of these powers are good. Some are terrible. What's undeniable is that tactical captain powers align best with how the game is designed to be played which discourages people from playing Engineering and Science.

Here's the thing though. I'm like many of you. I WANT to be an Engineer. I WANT to be a Science officer. So, what if (in a way) those were the only two choices and tactical wasn't a choice at all? I'm not suggesting removing tactical per se. I'm suggesting combining Tactical with both Engineering and Science and giving the player two choices that are equally good in different ways instead of 1 good choice and 2 subpar choices.

What if, instead of choosing between the 3 classes and getting one of the classes of aforementioned 6 captain powers, Cryptic could combine the 6 tactical powers into the other 6 science and engineering powers. What this would mean is you create a character and you get to choose Engineering or Science and your engineering or science captain powers would have the tactical buffs embedded into them. Obviously some HUGE changes would need to be made to them for synergy and balance but as things stand, a Science captain would unlock a power at level 7 that would combine sensor scan and attack pattern alpha into a single buff. An engineer would unlock a level 7 power that would combine rotate shield frequency and attack pattern alpha into a single buff.

The same would be true of all the other captain powers. Anyhow, it was just a thought and I wondered what others would think.
When you see "TRIBBLE" in my posts, it's because I manually typed "TRIBBLE" and censored myself.
Post edited by baddmoonrizin on
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Comments

  • where2r1where2r1 Member Posts: 6,054 Arc User
    Yeah, eliminate Tactical. I don't like playing that at all.
    "Spend your life doing strange things with weird people." -- UNK

    “Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
  • salazarrazesalazarraze Member Posts: 3,794 Arc User
    ruinthefun wrote: »
    The solution to eliminating the problem is to eliminate classes entirely. Why do we even need them? It is not as if players were making an informed choice when they first chose one.
    A lot of people have suggested that and it's an idea that i support too. The typical suggestion seems to be tying the captain powers into your skill tree selection and I assume that this is what you're suggesting.
    When you see "TRIBBLE" in my posts, it's because I manually typed "TRIBBLE" and censored myself.
  • lordsteve1lordsteve1 Member Posts: 3,492 Arc User
    Problem with the classes has always been that it’s not apparent until much later in the levelling process whether you made the right choice or not. There’s literally no difference between them at first as all ships have the same low stats and the game itself doesn’t really indicate how they will vary at later stages of play.
    So most people new to the game make an ill informed choice and aren’t really thinking long term.
    Combine that with a skill tree that restricts respecs behind a paywall and you’ve got a recipe for people not really planing ahead and having any idea how things can vary at endgame.

    So most people probably don’t even realise the difference between the classes because they never thought about it.

    However there’s definitely places at endgame where the trinity does work and can actually make life easier. I think @peterconnorfirst was the one who did HSE with the trinity approach recently and shows it definitely works.
    The game only feels like such a thing isn’t needed because most of not all content is braindead spam shooting.
    SulMatuul.png
  • peterconnorfirstpeterconnorfirst Member Posts: 6,225 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    lordsteve1 wrote: »
    Problem with the classes has always been that it’s not apparent until much later in the levelling process whether you made the right choice or not. There’s literally no difference between them at first as all ships have the same low stats and the game itself doesn’t really indicate how they will vary at later stages of play.
    So most people new to the game make an ill informed choice and aren’t really thinking long term.
    Combine that with a skill tree that restricts respecs behind a paywall and you’ve got a recipe for people not really planing ahead and having any idea how things can vary at endgame.

    So most people probably don’t even realise the difference between the classes because they never thought about it.

    However there’s definitely places at endgame where the trinity does work and can actually make life easier. I think @peterconnorfirst was the one who did HSE with the trinity approach recently and shows it definitely works.
    The game only feels like such a thing isn’t needed because most of not all content is braindead spam shooting.

    Thank you very much for the shoutout Steve.
    Well yea I have read the OP but my problem is that I have no idea how to respond. I simply cannot decide for any changes to game mechanics to make STO different as I don’t know if changes to trinity aspects would make the outcome for PvE better or worse. Really sorry, I do not know.
    As it is now we are at least free you know. The handful of captain abilities we have for the 3 careers are not distinct but rather a mix from one another where everybody gets some of this and some of that. This ultimately leads to the freedom that an ENG or SCI can decide to emit some DPS on his own (look at Hellspawny who sits on 400k DPS for both careers) or we can have a TAC who decides to pursue support roles as in tanking for example.
    The mix for what is worth is also reflected by the content itself. You can support, you can tank and all but you don’t need to do it. DPS all cuts it but it does not mean that it is the one and only way to tend to PvE.
    One thing is for sure though. If somebody likes to pursue a niche role he needs to know that not only his builds but especially the team he plays with needs to go for this support role. A tank for example is the most extreme. He completely shines in team where the map you play is still difficult enough as in the opposition you face but totally loses relevance for teams whose DPS has moved beyond that.
    Here is it again as we are free to choose our teams, the content does not force us too much.
    Change that? I don’t know. In order to have tanks to be useful in all teams the content would need to be twice or even thrice as hard to beat as compared to what it is now. Enemies would virtually need to be so strong that they would simply one shoot everybody in a team but the tank. Same counts for healers, crowd controllers and de-buffers. At the moment they are fun side gimmicks but not mandatory. This would quickly change if the game difficulty would increase. *waves at reyans gravity well at the incoming spheres in isa*
    The question is just would we want that? My fellow DPSer would surely vote yes but my daily experience in public matches simply shows a different picture. So many are struggling and are hard to motivate at all to PvE. Would we really want an ISA to be only successful if a dedicated PvE tank is present or it would otherwise fail?
    Again, I don’t know.
    Post edited by peterconnorfirst on
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    felisean wrote: »
    teamwork to reach a goal is awesome and highly appreciated
  • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 9,427 Arc User
    They could make your class switchable on the fly the same way specializations are. Then there'd be no more reason to complain one is better than the others.

    And then if, Cryptic doesn't want 99% of players flying tac, they can experiment with the balance of things without upsetting players too much, since nobody's stuck with what they have.
  • lordsteve1lordsteve1 Member Posts: 3,492 Arc User
    Thing is though ISE used to fail unless someone brought crowd control so we’ve definitely had aspects of trinity required previously.
    Sure the top guys could vape the map without fear of the nanite train getting too close but in pugs, I always brought GW3 because I knew it was gonna be needed 90% of the time.
    I’d love that level of involvement to return for supporting roles.
    SulMatuul.png
  • peterconnorfirstpeterconnorfirst Member Posts: 6,225 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    lordsteve1 wrote: »
    Thing is though ISE used to fail unless someone brought crowd control so we’ve definitely had aspects of trinity required previously.
    Sure the top guys could vape the map without fear of the nanite train getting too close but in pugs, I always brought GW3 because I knew it was gonna be needed 90% of the time.
    I’d love that level of involvement to return for supporting roles.

    Well yea I think we simply miss out isE for that one. :)

    Hehe and as for DPS minded teams who could blast through ISE no matter what they’d still be best off to grav-well the spheres. It’s a key element there passed on to the Recluse player in our team runs.
    animated.gif
    Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
    felisean wrote: »
    teamwork to reach a goal is awesome and highly appreciated
  • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 9,427 Arc User
    lordsteve1 wrote: »
    Thing is though ISE used to fail unless someone brought crowd control so we’ve definitely had aspects of trinity required previously.
    Sure the top guys could vape the map without fear of the nanite train getting too close but in pugs, I always brought GW3 because I knew it was gonna be needed 90% of the time.
    I’d love that level of involvement to return for supporting roles.
    That's ISA. They removed ISE when they put in the fail conditions in DR. Unless you meant "failing" the optional?

    Personally, I still miss the 10% rule.
  • tunebreakertunebreaker Member Posts: 1,222 Arc User
    Seriously, I think most of the "engs and scis are completely useless" are serious overamplifications of the problem. Are tacs able to do the same thing as scis and engs at least as well, if not better? Not counting some extreme cases like nuking Queen/pickles in HSE, absolutely (and even then Subnucleonic Carrier Wave exists). But is it a big, or even noticeable difference? Well, it depends. When we look at the top end of DPS charts, it is indeed dominated by tacs. But are the majority of STO players DPS chasers? I would say no.

    So, it's absolutely true that the tacs have higher DPS ceiling, but the difference only starts to become apparent when you've reached really high on the DPS ladder already. For starters, I would believe it's much easier to play engineers cause they can both keep their power levels up and heal themselves with their captain level powers. And they don't have to worry about that attractive power tempting them, that needs them to get 50% HP or lower (yes, AGDtD exists, but it's new players we're talking about who can't afford that trait yet).

    And it's not like scis or engs can't do well, quite the opposite. Let's look at the latest HSE I did, all extremely competent players in my team.
    SCM - Hive (S) - [04:55] DMG(DPS) -
    Tac: 53.69M(192.31K)
    Myself, a sci: 40.28M(137.99K)
    Eng: 34.43M(128.37K)
    Tac: 24.60M(88.08K)
    Sci: 23.49M(80.76K)

    I agree Cryptic could do something to make especially engineers (scis are mostly fine, honestly, I speak as a sci main) a bit more competitive even at the high end, damage output wise. And tacs definitely didn't need even more +armor pen with their newest captain power. But the difference between careers is not as horrible as most of the stories I've read. So no, I don't support scrapping tac career altogether.
    ruinthefun wrote: »
    If APA didn't work with science damage, then every single Tac in a Sci ship would be instantly scrap overnight.

    This claim is so ridiculously false it puts politician's promises/scaremongerings to shame.
  • casualstocasualsto Member Posts: 672 Arc User
    Solutions:
    Replace APA's 49.8% Bonus to All damage to 49.8% Bonus to All Weapon Damage.
    Replace GDF's Bonus to All damage to Bonus to All Weapon Damage.

    Reduce slightly cooldowns for Engineer Captain Powers.

    Sci is fine.
  • captainwellscaptainwells Member Posts: 718 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    With consoles, ships with specific attributes, your bridge officer abilities, etc. already on the table, your own selected characters class SHOULD be irrelevant in regards to space combat in my estimation.

    Or there should be an entirely different set of classification choices with your lead character which could help "streamline" their role within the bounds of these three overall classifications: Engineering; Science; Tactical that would build towards enhancing whichever role you happened to be serving depending upon the ship that you are flying. You do notice that event ships are not jack of all trades vessels, so your Tactical Captain might get a cruiser, or carrier, or a a Krenim Science ship. The lead toon should be providing a "universal enhancement" to whatever the game provides, not be hamstrung by that initial limited classification; particularly since your bridge officers and Doff buffs already determine that to a great extent.
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 57,973 Community Moderator
    ruinthefun wrote: »
    The solution to eliminating the problem is to eliminate classes entirely. Why do we even need them? It is not as if players were making an informed choice when they first chose one.

    You know what the "informed" choice would be?
    The majority of the playerbase would say "Roll a Tac. Best damage output. Other two classes are garbage".
    Just like the "informed" choice for DPS is generally Antiproton or Disruptor, and all other options are garbage.

    Frankly its meta thinking that makes one dominate over the others. Especially when we can fly any ship.
    db80k0m-89201ed8-eadb-45d3-830f-bb2f0d4c0fe7.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcL2ExOGQ4ZWM2LTUyZjQtNDdiMS05YTI1LTVlYmZkYmJkOGM3N1wvZGI4MGswbS04OTIwMWVkOC1lYWRiLTQ1ZDMtODMwZi1iYjJmMGQ0YzBmZTcucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.8G-Pg35Qi8qxiKLjAofaKRH6fmNH3qAAEI628gW0eXc
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,587 Arc User
    The solution to eliminating the problem is to eliminate one's stubborn resistance to the Trinity, and actually play as a TEAM. Tune, Peter, and Sea have shown, in their awesome HSE run, that the synergy of the three classes can work miracles.
    3lsZz0w.jpg
  • tunebreakertunebreaker Member Posts: 1,222 Arc User
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    The solution to eliminating the problem is to eliminate one's stubborn resistance to the Trinity, and actually play as a TEAM. Tune, Peter, and Sea have shown, in their awesome HSE run, that the synergy of the three classes can work miracles.

    I don't remember Sea being with us in that trinity HSE. :D Not saying that he's a bad player (cause obviously he's not), but if we're talking about the same HSE run, our team composition was different.
  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,587 Arc User
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    The solution to eliminating the problem is to eliminate one's stubborn resistance to the Trinity, and actually play as a TEAM. Tune, Peter, and Sea have shown, in their awesome HSE run, that the synergy of the three classes can work miracles.

    I don't remember Sea being with us in that trinity HSE. :D Not saying that he's a bad player (cause obviously he's not), but if we're talking about the same HSE run, our team composition was different.


    O, my memory, it's fading. 'Daisy... Daisy...' :p
    3lsZz0w.jpg
  • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 9,427 Arc User
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    The solution to eliminating the problem is to eliminate one's stubborn resistance to the Trinity, and actually play as a TEAM. Tune, Peter, and Sea have shown, in their awesome HSE run, that the synergy of the three classes can work miracles.
    There is no such thing as a "stubborn resistance to the Trinity." The trinity exists where it's needed, and in STO it's not needed because it's too easy.
  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,587 Arc User
    warpangel wrote: »
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    The solution to eliminating the problem is to eliminate one's stubborn resistance to the Trinity, and actually play as a TEAM. Tune, Peter, and Sea have shown, in their awesome HSE run, that the synergy of the three classes can work miracles.
    There is no such thing as a "stubborn resistance to the Trinity." The trinity exists where it's needed, and in STO it's not needed because it's too easy.


    The "stubborn resistance to the Trinity" can be found in this very topic start.
    3lsZz0w.jpg
  • kyle223catkyle223cat Member Posts: 584 Arc User
    Something I've noticed that makes me sad, as Engineering is my favorite class, is that there isn't really any content that requires the predominantly defensive abilities you get from being an Engineer. Nowadays, there are so many traits and consoles that do what an Engineer can do to the point where being an Engineer is almost superfluous. Back in the day, there were next to no mega heals, so that made being an Engineer a little more viable. PvP was the last area where being an Engineer was worth it, because you could play as a healer or a zombie tank. Since PvP is long dead, it doesn't seem like there are many reasons to roll an Engineer anymore.
    da84303d8bc4080b9860968f634f98682215bbe5.gifv
  • talonxvtalonxv Member Posts: 4,257 Arc User
    Tactical is 95% better? :D

    Sure it is.
    afMSv4g.jpg
    Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!

    http://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1145998/star-trek-battles-channel-got-canon/p1
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 57,973 Community Moderator
    sophlogimo wrote: »
    Besides, the approach they use for class balancing is "genetic resequencer traits from lockboxes". Once you use them, you can get nice near-tac results, if you care that much for them.

    But... but... its NOT Tac! Its not the same! ;)
    db80k0m-89201ed8-eadb-45d3-830f-bb2f0d4c0fe7.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcL2ExOGQ4ZWM2LTUyZjQtNDdiMS05YTI1LTVlYmZkYmJkOGM3N1wvZGI4MGswbS04OTIwMWVkOC1lYWRiLTQ1ZDMtODMwZi1iYjJmMGQ0YzBmZTcucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.8G-Pg35Qi8qxiKLjAofaKRH6fmNH3qAAEI628gW0eXc
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 9,427 Arc User
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    warpangel wrote: »
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    The solution to eliminating the problem is to eliminate one's stubborn resistance to the Trinity, and actually play as a TEAM. Tune, Peter, and Sea have shown, in their awesome HSE run, that the synergy of the three classes can work miracles.
    There is no such thing as a "stubborn resistance to the Trinity." The trinity exists where it's needed, and in STO it's not needed because it's too easy.


    The "stubborn resistance to the Trinity" can be found in this very topic start.
    Please elaborate.
  • gradiigradii Member Posts: 2,824 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    I like having 3 seperate careers, as it is theres already ways to build each one for any role you desire, or any playstyle or combination of roles. the elements of trinity are going to be there but STO is the least trinity reliant game I've played, and that is a GOOD thing.

    "He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
    Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
    he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
    In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
    He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
    He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
    He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
    He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 57,973 Community Moderator
    It wouldn't be fun if we were all the same.
    db80k0m-89201ed8-eadb-45d3-830f-bb2f0d4c0fe7.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcL2ExOGQ4ZWM2LTUyZjQtNDdiMS05YTI1LTVlYmZkYmJkOGM3N1wvZGI4MGswbS04OTIwMWVkOC1lYWRiLTQ1ZDMtODMwZi1iYjJmMGQ0YzBmZTcucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.8G-Pg35Qi8qxiKLjAofaKRH6fmNH3qAAEI628gW0eXc
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • tobywitczaktobywitczak Member Posts: 208 Arc User
    Instead of neutering TAC and/or SCI, why not boost ENG to match. To do this we would need some very specific traits that TAC/SCI cannot use.
    From: https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/startrekonline/#/discussion/1243043/engineer-captain-revamp-rotate-shield-frequency
    When STO first started the thought was the classic Tank, Healer + Buff/Debuff and DPS Dealer but over time all battle just became about dealing DPS. The fact that www.sto-league.com only outlines TAC and SCI builds more or less proves that if you want to complete on the same level then go with TAC or SCI only builds.
    • You can create a Full Science Build (27 Points in the SCI Tree) and get good buff/debuff to create high DPS
    • You can create a Full Tactical Build is (27 Points in the TAC Tree) and well everting is for DPS
    • A Full Engineering Build (27 Points) is the black sheep, being a member of the STO Academy I posted this https://forum.stoacademy.com/showthread.php?tid=5104 Basically no one has any real idea on how to make this work and be even somewhat competitive to the TAC or SCI. All Engineering Builds I have seen will put all the points into the SCI or TAC tree.

    On that note, I was thinking of ways to make the tank into a DPS machine like
    1. Reflection Tank, a percentage of incoming fire you receive is redirected towards a target on top of the damage that you are doing. So if you are doing 1000DPS and then receive a hit for another 1000DPS with a 20% Reflection you are now dealing 1200DPS, and this should stack for each ship attacking you. Now the tank has a reasons to take as much fire as possible. (Side note, before the revamp I seem to recall this was a real build)
    2. Extended Range Tank: All weapons and sensor can hit from 15km not the current 10. Basically giving the player a 50% bump to damage at the beginning.
  • talonxvtalonxv Member Posts: 4,257 Arc User
    In space I will agree Tac is king. On the ground I'll take an Engineer any day. And science is almost as good in space and better than TAC on the ground.

    So honestly just boost ENG a bit in space and right as rain.
    afMSv4g.jpg
    Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!

    http://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1145998/star-trek-battles-channel-got-canon/p1
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