Queues/TFOs, and why most of them don't get played

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  • warpangel
    warpangel Member Posts: 9,427 Arc User
    warpangel wrote: »
    With a fail condition, it can work. If DS9 getting destroyed meant losing the mission. If you had to get X assault teams on Terok Nor before the time runs out or lose the mission. Then it would be a proper mission.

    Not sure about DS9 being destroyed, but failing to close 5 portals or transporting 15 troops during allocated time will fail the queue on elite. However, the problem is that if you have a team that knows how to read the mission objectives, you'll be sure to close/transport at least twice the amount needed.
    That's good, then. Too bad there is no reward incentive to play it on Elite.
    And yes, I agree advanced queues being pretty much autowin is ridiculous, but remembering the horrible outcry after DR how people were constantly failing advanced queues, I'm not surprised they changed it.
    People who really should've been playing Normal were constantly failing Advanced, exactly as you'd expect. I only saw a few failures (in pugs) all the time it lasted.

    Cryptic should've told the complainers to play Normal if they can't handle Advanced. That's what Normal is for. Or it was. Now, Normal's for those people who haven't noticed that Advanced is just as autowin.

    All they needed to do with the actual fail conditions was review the ones in the old missions, that were originally designed only as few-extra-peanuts optionals and summarily promoted into required with DR. Leading to hilarities like KSA having a fail condition for letting one probe through and another for letting ten through...which obviously could never be reached since the mission already failed at the one. :D

    Of course now it has neither. They didn't just return it to what it was before DR, they removed the original fail condition as well. Turning the entire premise of the mission upside down. Forget the probes just kill the gates.
    hippiejon wrote: »
    rattler2 wrote: »
    Big Dig?
    Main issue: 20 man queue.

    Don't know what other problems there are with it off the top of my head. Been forever since I saw the map.
    Oh it's totally the 20 person requirement to even pop that makes it unplayed. Total agreement there.
    I'd love to see it get the remastering treatment like the Minefield did.
    I once got stuck trying to 4-man it... that was a long time ago and a major PITA..... Had to shoot so many Romulans I got the Praetor title...
    I used to one-man it for the 1st place accolade until the queue revamp made it impossible to start alone. Also Breaking the Planet, SB24 and Klingon Scout Force. All it ever took was time.

    It also always worked well starting it alone but letting other players join in on the fly.
  • lordsteve1
    lordsteve1 Member Posts: 3,492 Arc User
    ruinthefun wrote: »
    I don't know why people promote this as a solution when uni boxes were implemented because having queues only give out certain marks DIDN'T motivate people to play those queues, it just meant new players could never get those marks since no one played them.
    That's the symptom of a different problem, though: Lack of any continuing value post-Rep. Since once a player has finished the reps, there is absolutely nothing of value they can gain from continued play, the system produces a natural persistent manpower and brain drain from said queues as experienced veterans exit, never to return.

    This is partly a symptom of the increasing "bound to character" fetish. Without any fungible value, there is no reason to obtain any further rewards, as anything you personally cannot use on that particular character is basically just worthless. If these things could be traded, we'd see a natural equilibrium where the difficulty of obtaining the rewards is matched by the price people are willing to pay to outsource, thus keeping a steady supply of experienced players in the content.

    But since the rep system has long since reduced everything to homogenized pabulum, nothing is special or worth getting anymore.

    I'll always agree with this.

    -Rewards that are unique to each queue = cannot be claimed elsewhere.
    -Allow said rewards to be traded.
    -Players willing to play the content will get the rewards.
    -Those unwilling to play can buy the rewards.
    -Price will be determined by demand and difficulty in obtaining.
    -Players will be driven to queues because either a) they want to get the rewards or b) they are farming to provide for the people
    buying.
    -More players in the queues regardless of the reason people play.
    SulMatuul.png
  • valarauko43
    valarauko43 Member Posts: 227 Arc User
    I bought a game called Grim Dawn last week and I've been averaging about twelve hours playtime a day. This is because I can't do STFs/Queues/TFOs. I CAN'T because I don't know. I don't know how you all learned but after six and a half years I still have no clue. If anything like team work is involved I'm out. It's not because I'm anti-anything, It is literally because I don't know where to learn. Typing in the chat box during combat ain't happenin'. I also have no idea how to use voice. I tried to research it but I apparently lack the intellect to understand what those web pages were discussing. I like combat pets but I had to pass on The Breach again because the youtube videos left me feeling like I had no business there. That's how I see most TFOs. I don't know what I'm doing...so I don't belong there. The rewards, apart from protomatter micro-containers (or whatever they are called. I'm lookin' at you Tzenkethi.) are not the issue for me. Neither is the time-gate. I have a Klingon character that I've played since I started STO but he's never going to look as good as the folks who earned Honor Guard gear because I CANNOT play the content. I don't know how. It is not intuitive. Even though there is so much of STO that I can't do, I have never quit and still log in every day to something. Sorry for the rant/wall o' text but I have seen this topic discussed for years and I gonna say this one more time. If you want me, or anyone like me, in the TFOs, then we're gonna need actionable intel. Thank you for your time. LLAP
  • rattler2
    rattler2 Member Posts: 55,547 Community Moderator
    I bought a game called Grim Dawn last week and I've been averaging about twelve hours playtime a day. This is because I can't do STFs/Queues/TFOs. I CAN'T because I don't know. I don't know how you all learned but after six and a half years I still have no clue. If anything like team work is involved I'm out. It's not because I'm anti-anything, It is literally because I don't know where to learn. Typing in the chat box during combat ain't happenin'. I also have no idea how to use voice. I tried to research it but I apparently lack the intellect to understand what those web pages were discussing. I like combat pets but I had to pass on The Breach again because the youtube videos left me feeling like I had no business there. That's how I see most TFOs. I don't know what I'm doing...so I don't belong there. The rewards, apart from protomatter micro-containers (or whatever they are called. I'm lookin' at you Tzenkethi.) are not the issue for me. Neither is the time-gate. I have a Klingon character that I've played since I started STO but he's never going to look as good as the folks who earned Honor Guard gear because I CANNOT play the content. I don't know how. It is not intuitive. Even though there is so much of STO that I can't do, I have never quit and still log in every day to something. Sorry for the rant/wall o' text but I have seen this topic discussed for years and I gonna say this one more time. If you want me, or anyone like me, in the TFOs, then we're gonna need actionable intel. Thank you for your time. LLAP

    As of right now, the main source of knowledge on how to run a STF is from other players. But again this highlights a problem in the community. Communication.
    66998372863950ee98cf7da9786e2ea9-db80k0m.png
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out a Delta Pack, Temporal Pack, and Gamma Pack
    The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • protoneous
    protoneous Member Posts: 2,461 Arc User
    rattler2 wrote: »
    I bought a game called Grim Dawn last week and I've been averaging about twelve hours playtime a day. This is because I can't do STFs/Queues/TFOs. I CAN'T because I don't know. I don't know how you all learned but after six and a half years I still have no clue. If anything like team work is involved I'm out. It's not because I'm anti-anything, It is literally because I don't know where to learn. Typing in the chat box during combat ain't happenin'. I also have no idea how to use voice. I tried to research it but I apparently lack the intellect to understand what those web pages were discussing. I like combat pets but I had to pass on The Breach again because the youtube videos left me feeling like I had no business there. That's how I see most TFOs. I don't know what I'm doing...so I don't belong there. The rewards, apart from protomatter micro-containers (or whatever they are called. I'm lookin' at you Tzenkethi.) are not the issue for me. Neither is the time-gate. I have a Klingon character that I've played since I started STO but he's never going to look as good as the folks who earned Honor Guard gear because I CANNOT play the content. I don't know how. It is not intuitive. Even though there is so much of STO that I can't do, I have never quit and still log in every day to something. Sorry for the rant/wall o' text but I have seen this topic discussed for years and I gonna say this one more time. If you want me, or anyone like me, in the TFOs, then we're gonna need actionable intel. Thank you for your time. LLAP

    As of right now, the main source of knowledge on how to run a STF is from other players. But again this highlights a problem in the community. Communication.
    As a secondary source there's a fair number of video's on youtube. Forgot where those trip lines are in that queue you haven't played in a while? Google is your friend. To the person whom you quoted... there's not much you can do wrong in normal queues or events, you should give some of them a try. After a half dozen times watching what others are doing you'll get the hang of things :smile:
  • markhawkman
    markhawkman Member Posts: 35,231 Arc User
    lordsteve1 wrote: »
    I’ve always felt the big queues like Big Dig, Breaking the Planet and Starbase Fleet Defense would be better as a sort of persistent mini battle zone that just resets after each successful mission. That way the map could adjust to how many players are there and you could run it with as many or few as we’re present.
    No more nightmare trying to get 20 players together with that.
    Honestly? I think it was originally built that way. After playing open world missions in Champions I think it was built using the same tech as those. Specifically how all the stuff comes back after a short timer. I mean all the objectives respawn! (But you only get credit when the appropriate objective is live.
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
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  • alcaatraz
    alcaatraz Member Posts: 112 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    Sigh...this is why I hate the forums...spend time writing out a comment and try to be nice and word it correctly only to have it disappear into the void; maybe someone just doesn't like what I have to say and deletes comments of mine, I wouldn't put it past someone.

    ---

    I had a bunch of arguments for and against time gates, but I don't want to wright it all out again. Thought I should put another note here on it. I could maybe try to replicate it but at this point I don't see the point.
    Post edited by alcaatraz on
    --- @alcaatraz || I make tanks and do crazy maths stuffs ---
    "I am the master of my fate: I am the captain of my soul."
  • legendarylycan#5411
    legendarylycan#5411 Member Posts: 36,950 Arc User
    well, so much for killing the edit monster​​
    Like special weapons from other Star Trek games? Wondering if they can be replicated in STO even a little bit? Check this out: https://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1262277/a-mostly-comprehensive-guide-to-star-trek-videogame-special-weapons-and-their-sto-equivalents
    #LegalizeAwoo
    A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
    An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
    A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
    A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"

    "It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
    "Curiosity is bad! It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed...and more importantly, it makes you poor!"
    Passion and Serenity are one.
    I gain power by understanding both.
    In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
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    The Force is united within me.
  • alcaatraz
    alcaatraz Member Posts: 112 Arc User
    well, so much for killing the edit monster​​

    Edit monster?
    --- @alcaatraz || I make tanks and do crazy maths stuffs ---
    "I am the master of my fate: I am the captain of my soul."
  • legendarylycan#5411
    legendarylycan#5411 Member Posts: 36,950 Arc User
    Like special weapons from other Star Trek games? Wondering if they can be replicated in STO even a little bit? Check this out: https://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1262277/a-mostly-comprehensive-guide-to-star-trek-videogame-special-weapons-and-their-sto-equivalents
    #LegalizeAwoo
    A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
    An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
    A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
    A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"

    "It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
    "Curiosity is bad! It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed...and more importantly, it makes you poor!"
    Passion and Serenity are one.
    I gain power by understanding both.
    In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
    I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
    The Force is united within me.
  • alcaatraz
    alcaatraz Member Posts: 112 Arc User
    Oh...so well to that I guess...its not as if my comment here would have had an impact anyway. I'm just going to head to bed.
    --- @alcaatraz || I make tanks and do crazy maths stuffs ---
    "I am the master of my fate: I am the captain of my soul."
  • trennan
    trennan Member Posts: 2,839 Arc User
    I bought a game called Grim Dawn last week and I've been averaging about twelve hours playtime a day. This is because I can't do STFs/Queues/TFOs. I CAN'T because I don't know. I don't know how you all learned but after six and a half years I still have no clue. If anything like team work is involved I'm out. It's not because I'm anti-anything, It is literally because I don't know where to learn. Typing in the chat box during combat ain't happenin'. I also have no idea how to use voice. I tried to research it but I apparently lack the intellect to understand what those web pages were discussing. I like combat pets but I had to pass on The Breach again because the youtube videos left me feeling like I had no business there. That's how I see most TFOs. I don't know what I'm doing...so I don't belong there. The rewards, apart from protomatter micro-containers (or whatever they are called. I'm lookin' at you Tzenkethi.) are not the issue for me. Neither is the time-gate. I have a Klingon character that I've played since I started STO but he's never going to look as good as the folks who earned Honor Guard gear because I CANNOT play the content. I don't know how. It is not intuitive. Even though there is so much of STO that I can't do, I have never quit and still log in every day to something. Sorry for the rant/wall o' text but I have seen this topic discussed for years and I gonna say this one more time. If you want me, or anyone like me, in the TFOs, then we're gonna need actionable intel. Thank you for your time. LLAP

    A lot of us that have been playing since beta or when the game went F2P, learned the old fashion way, trial and error. especially in the the old Borg Elites from that time. When you had to hope you pug team knew what to do, or you could find a team in zone chat.
    For some of the older STfs, there are still mechanics you can follow. They put some of those in the new stuff. But, the simple explanation for how to do them, is really nothing more then, "Go here, fly in circles, or stand, and kill whatever enemy get within range." That's the current standard for STFs. Can you count to 1? Then you can do said content.
    The older content isn't much of a concern either. You can basically ignore most of the mechanics and DPS your way through them. Plus, for the elite marks, you only need to hit advanced. Elite STF's aren't even needed for this. As for the Honor Guard, well you can't get the Elite commander accolade, as that requires you to get the old MK X gear, which you can't. So you can still get the others.
    So don't worry over it, go in, do it, and learn as you go. With the current focus on DPS, don't worry about teamwork to much. That already died long ago. The only two queues, or STFs, or the Totally Fubar Operations as they want to call them now, that require a semblance of teamwork really are, Arena of Sompek and Kobayashi Maru.
    Mm5NeXy.gif
  • rattler2
    rattler2 Member Posts: 55,547 Community Moderator
    ruinthefun wrote: »
    trennan wrote: »
    As for the Honor Guard, well you can't get the Elite commander accolade, as that requires you to get the old MK X gear, which you can't. So you can still get the others.
    It's not the MK X gear that breaks it. It's because they removed the Elites, and you can't get the relevant "Optional" cheevos out of Easymode, so you can't get it anymore.

    That's actually true. No elite optionals
    66998372863950ee98cf7da9786e2ea9-db80k0m.png
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out a Delta Pack, Temporal Pack, and Gamma Pack
    The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • tunebreaker
    tunebreaker Member Posts: 1,222 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    alcaatraz wrote: »
    -snip- cause y'all can read the post in original form above

    Forget the "awesome" react, I need a "hella amazing", at the very least.

    Thanks for taking the time to write it again, this is an awesomely crafted post and is worded a lot better than I ever could. And while engagement is, imo, not a perfect measure to use cause it can be subjective depending on the individual player, then at the same time, coming up with something better is also incredibly hard.

    I wanted to comment more on it, but realized you've done such an amazing job that I can't really do anything else but to show you my complete approval. Extremely well structured thoughts, and thank you again! :)
  • seaofsorrows
    seaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,894 Arc User
    alcaatraz wrote: »
    At the request of @tunebreaker, I've decided to try and reproduce my original statement.

    **Snip**

    Holy TRIBBLE that was a GREAT post!

    Very well written, I think I agree with every word you said.

    I am glad you took the time to rewrite it, it was very much worth reading.
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    Discovery is good, it's you that sucks.
  • protoneous
    protoneous Member Posts: 2,461 Arc User
    alcaatraz wrote: »
    ... I've decided to try and reproduce my original statement.<Snip>
    Wow! Thank you for taking the time to re-post.

  • rattler2
    rattler2 Member Posts: 55,547 Community Moderator
    Need the "insightful" option. ;)
    66998372863950ee98cf7da9786e2ea9-db80k0m.png
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out a Delta Pack, Temporal Pack, and Gamma Pack
    The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • lordsteve1
    lordsteve1 Member Posts: 3,492 Arc User
    Interesting take on the game @alcaatraz

    For what it’s worth the reason I think many players don’t feel any wish to push themselves to be better is simply because there is no reason do so. If I can complete ISA in 30 seconds less time with a better build so what? It doesn’t get me anything better reward wise. I don’t earn any prize for being better. There’s no competitive element to the game where being faster or able to do more damage earns you some fancy shiny toy.
    Doing elite runs which would require me to push myself don’t really reward me with anything in particular that I need/want/can get elsewhere.
    Literally the only reason to push yourself is to get bigger numbers in a third party piece of software.
    SulMatuul.png
  • seaofsorrows
    seaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,894 Arc User
    lordsteve1 wrote: »
    Literally the only reason to push yourself is to get bigger numbers in a third party piece of software.

    Not really. Believe it or not, some of us find it fun.

    It can be fun theory crafting a build, trying different things and seeing how they perform in combat. There are still some Elite Queues that provide a challenge even to high end builds and some people like the challenge.

    Sure, it's not for everyone but that's the nice thing about Elites.. no one has to do them but they're there if you enjoy them. We certainly don't run them for the rewards.
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    Discovery is good, it's you that sucks.
  • seaofsorrows
    seaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,894 Arc User
    ruinthefun wrote: »
    Yes, but for something to persist and expand beyond a narrow subset of people who just do this for no reason, everyone else needs some kind of reason to participate. This is, ultimately, a game about getting stuff and paying the space bills.

    I agree with you, but Elites were made for just that.. a 'small subset of people.'

    Elites were never intended to have a huge player count, they're there for a small group of players that wants to push their builds, have the 'best of the best' gear and ultimately put those builds and gear to the test. They're not intended for the majority of the players.

    Sure, in an ideal world the rewards would magnify accordingly but I think we both know that's not going to happen. The only real function of Elites are for fun and they will always appeal to a very small percentage of the player base.
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    Discovery is good, it's you that sucks.
  • warpangel
    warpangel Member Posts: 9,427 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    ruinthefun wrote: »
    Yes, but for something to persist and expand beyond a narrow subset of people who just do this for no reason, everyone else needs some kind of reason to participate. This is, ultimately, a game about getting stuff and paying the space bills.

    I agree with you, but Elites were made for just that.. a 'small subset of people.'

    Elites were never intended to have a huge player count, they're there for a small group of players that wants to push their builds, have the 'best of the best' gear and ultimately put those builds and gear to the test. They're not intended for the majority of the players.

    Sure, in an ideal world the rewards would magnify accordingly but I think we both know that's not going to happen. The only real function of Elites are for fun and they will always appeal to a very small percentage of the player base.
    And I suppose you have dev quotes on the design intent on Elites being to serve you specifically?

    It's my opinion the Elites have never received a whole lot of design attention in any direction. Slapping on more enemy stats and whatever fail condition they could recycle from the optionals and there, it's ready. Their actual difficulty level varies more dramatically than anything else in the game. I seriously doubt things like Korfez being that hard are on purpose, more likely they just haven't paid attention to the effect their "balance passes" over the years have had on content few people ever play. Just imagine how hard bog-standard ISA would be if they let all the bugs pile on forever. Then there are other Elites that are casually puggable. Some of them, most notably in the competitive rep, are even rewards-optimal. I don't know what they were thinking making all of them but if they're intentionally just for a few players to run just for laughs, it's because they've been abandoned to that state.

    In an ideal world, the Elite version would not just "magnify" the rewards, it would reward something different that people who already have the rewards from the lower levels would still want. Like the original STF drops, you had to do Elite to get the Mk XII version of the gear, so you could gear up in Normal and still have reason to play Elite. Simply scaling the generic rewards to make Elites worthwhile is indeed impossible, if there is no uniqueness at all. It's already impossible to scale them to account for the time difference between short and long content, much less to consider difficulty level as well.
  • seaofsorrows
    seaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,894 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    warpangel wrote: »
    And I suppose you have dev quotes on the design intent on Elites being to serve you specifically?

    I never said they were designed for me specifically.. obviously.

    As for a Dev Quote.. how's this?
    Elite – The Best of the Best

    Warning: The new Elite mode is far and away the hardest content we have put into Star Trek Online. We expect you to not just be outfitted in great gear, but have become proficient in the Normal and Advanced versions of the events as well. You should be a master of your character and your ship, as well as knowing what your teammates are capable of doing. You should also know what to expect from the enemy you will be fighting as well.

    Source.


    Your pathetic attempt at an insult aside, the rest of your post is so insanely idiotic that there is no way it is anything other then a troll attempt.. and a pathetic one at that. You really need it explained to you that Elites are supposed to be hard? Really?

    If you honestly believe that Elites were intended for the bulk of the player base then obviously trying to talk common sense to you is a lost cause.

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  • reyan01
    reyan01 Member Posts: 15,511 Arc User
    warpangel wrote: »
    And I suppose you have dev quotes on the design intent on Elites being to serve you specifically?

    I never said they were designed for me specifically.. obviously.

    As for a Dev Quote.. how's this?
    Elite – The Best of the Best

    Warning: The new Elite mode is far and away the hardest content we have put into Star Trek Online. We expect you to not just be outfitted in great gear, but have become proficient in the Normal and Advanced versions of the events as well. You should be a master of your character and your ship, as well as knowing what your teammates are capable of doing. You should also know what to expect from the enemy you will be fighting as well.

    Source.


    Your pathetic attempt at an insult aside, the rest of your post is so insanely idiotic that there is no way it is anything other then a troll attempt.. and a pathetic one at that. You really need it explained to you that Elites are supposed to be hard? Really?

    If you honestly believe that Elites were intended for the bulk of the player base then obviously trying to talk common sense to you is a lost cause.

    You have to admit though, that quote (the Dev one) is misleading.

    How do we become "proficient in the Normal and Advanced versions of the events" which don't HAVE Normal or Advanced versions? (Korfez).
  • warpangel
    warpangel Member Posts: 9,427 Arc User
    warpangel wrote: »
    And I suppose you have dev quotes on the design intent on Elites being to serve you specifically?

    I never said they were designed for me specifically.. obviously.

    As for a Dev Quote.. how's this?
    Elite – The Best of the Best

    Warning: The new Elite mode is far and away the hardest content we have put into Star Trek Online. We expect you to not just be outfitted in great gear, but have become proficient in the Normal and Advanced versions of the events as well. You should be a master of your character and your ship, as well as knowing what your teammates are capable of doing. You should also know what to expect from the enemy you will be fighting as well.

    Source.


    Your pathetic attempt at an insult aside, the rest of your post is so insanely idiotic that there is no way it is anything other then a troll attempt.. and a pathetic one at that. You really need it explained to you that Elites are supposed to be hard? Really?

    If you honestly believe that Elites were intended for the bulk of the player base then obviously trying to talk common sense to you is a lost cause.
    You're the only one making insults here.