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What Could We Teach Better?

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  • thetaninethetanine Member Posts: 1,367 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    STO has a ton of systems in the game, and we're looking to revitalize how we teach them to you. What do you think would be the most important part of STO to teach to a new player, that we don't currently show off well?

    I'm talking about the kind of things that you need to know to succeed in the game, but players generally find out by, say, coming here rather than learning organically through gameplay.

    The BEST thing that could be taught to new and existing players is how Ship POWER LEVELS (in space: TAC, SHD, ENG, AUX) work and How They RELATE to INNATE Functions (Weapons, Deflector Powers, Impulse Powers, Warp Core/Singularity Powers, and Shield Powers) and our SKILLS for Captains and BOffs.

    So, Power Levels -> Equipped Gear -> Skills/Power relations in bar or line graphs, or in a triangular configuration where 33% would be in each point of the triangle by default, and then graphed out depending on how we change the allocations to those three vertices.

    Here's a simple graphic of what I mean:
    GIMc.gif

    And so by moving the base 33% in each Skill, Effort, or Attitude, each point would change the numbers that we see when we look at our Captain's and/or Crew's Active and Passive Statistics.

    If we could see plainly what our tweaking of those power levels would affect, the way we would learn our ships would give us the stated goal of "things that you need to know to succeed in the game, but players generally find out by, say, coming here rather than learning organically through gameplay."

    Cheers!

    T9
    STAR TREK
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  • kronin#4685 kronin Member Posts: 325 Arc User
    @valoreah
    I think the thing you may want to consider is that your results are not typical. Maybe you have a natural talent for this game. Maybe one or more of the educated guesses you took while using the trial and error method worked, and you simply found working answers faster than other players. But I'm going to be picky for a moment and point something out to you. You said "I personally never struggled with figuring out how to build my ships", and then said "Not saying it was easy - in certain instances it was a lot of trial and error". That seems contradictory, but I think you are trying to say that you enjoyed the learning process and figuring it out yourself. For many, though, the trial and error method can lead to banging their head against a tree. Personally, I had the opposite experience that you had. I got frustrated, building one "creative train wreck" after another. I wasn't in a fleet, and didn't want to be in one until I felt I could contribute, but fleets are another topic. I went to the forums, but most of the advice I found fit into two categories. Either the information was too basic, and didn't give me what I needed, or it was too advanced. All the ship building guides I've seen do not really help new players. Most, if not all, of them included using gear that new players do not have and cannot get. You may feel that my results are not typical, but I've seen a lot of new people complaining about the difficulty. I also know people in real life who have walked away from this game for the reasons I am talking about. One has even gone on to other websites and written scathing reviews about this game, ripping it up one side and down the other. This forum will never contain the opinions of said former players. Also, tutorials can be skipped. So, giving new players this kind of help is not a bad thing. Players like yourself can skip it. The tutorial or cookie cutter build would not be the best in the game, but it would be adequate.
  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,587 Arc User
    The current tutorials are heavily focussed on how to work the UI. Which is cute (and maybe even needed, to an extent), but tell you nothing about the game basics itself, like:

    1) Cooldowns. Like how duplicate abilities work their cd magic, for instance;

    2) Resists. Explain something about ship resists;

    3) Tell the new player something about how power levels work, and what the different subsystems are for (like 'Shields' is easy to grasp, but Aux, not so much);

    4) Something about firing Arcs, procs maybe, and firing cycles (althought this may already be too much for a tutorial).

    At any rate, the tutorials currently explain as good as nothing, is the point. Many games I played, usually have you start off at a 'training' level, to master basic navigation and weapon usage, before you get to proceed to the real game. Something like that is thoroughly missing in STO.
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  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,587 Arc User
    warpangel wrote: »
    A tutorial can't teach meta. That'd inevitably become outdated. All it needs is to point out the various basic mechanics and how they interact: weapon/damage types, stat-boosting consoles, boff abilities, traits, etc. Teach players to match these to fit together. Deciding things like if CRF or CSV is better at any given moment, for any given purpose, is best left to the players themselves.

    Having better information about things in general would also help. For example, there are various different types of damage bonus/bonus damage that are never even mentioned to exist in any official documentation, much less told what counts as what or how they actually work. People have to read about this stuff on Reddit or something.

    And if they can't for whatever reason actually fix whatever issue makes space/ground equipment show bogus stats when read in the "wrong" environment (space gear on ground or ground gear in space), do at least tell the players it's there.
    Yeah, teaching basic ability stacking is workable as an aspect of an extended tutorial. The nature and relative power of abilities is too varied and dynamic to go into much detail, but explaining the concept of "use EptW THEN CSV" is certainly a good idea.


    Understanding why one would first shoot some extra power into weapons, before using a beam/cannon ability, I think most ppl will grasp that intuitively. Why to active Tactical Team before an Attack Pattern, however, is already much more involved.

    Stuff like that probably shouldn't be in the starter tutorial, but would no doubt shine in a follow-up tutorial, like 'Basic ability activation management.'
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  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,587 Arc User
    valoreah wrote: »
    How to spend points is something most will learn on their own organically. The goal isn't to "get it right the first time".


    And by the time ppl really understand what points to spend where, they're already way past tutorial-level understanding of the game. So, yeah, you can't really put that stuff into a (starters-)tutorial.
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  • ltminnsltminns Member Posts: 12,569 Arc User
    With the revamp you don't commit after all points are allocated, you commit each point as allocated meaning respecs are needed if you want to correct a mistake. Having a better idea of how to formulate this is paramount.


    Otherwise, '...your children well...'
    'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
    Judge Dan Haywood
    'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
    l don't know.
    l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
    That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
    Lt. Philip J. Minns
  • tobiashirttobiashirt Member Posts: 630 Arc User
    Addressing the 2 points of "what's not taught well" and "what do you need to know to succeed":

    1. The idea of 'categories', and the fact that they don't just apply to damage. The first thing I found myself explaining to 2 new fleet members in the last month was why some consoles/effects were better because they were in a different category.

    Skills and what counters what...like passive hull regen not always having units on it and not always noting that values are different in and out of combat (most stated values are %of max/minute). Or explaining what,say, shield hardness is, how it relates or doesn't to penetration, and that it has a cap of 75%.

    Diminishing returns and the general form of underlying formulae, e.g. that weapon power cost reduction is of the form "1/1+x", such that adding more might be of less benefit than using another piece of gear entirely (Bounty Hunter's Friend vs Temporal Disentanglement Suite).

    2. Where and how to get new ships (fleet, c-store, lockbox, event) and how to get ships you missed out on (phoenix box)

    Where and how to get new gear/weapons (fleet, lockbox, crafting, reputations)

    Weapon modifiers: what ones are available, where/how to get them, what are allowable combinations, how to change them, and which ones can't be changed.

    Ship-specific mechanics (have a listing in one place of all special mechanics and a description of each, along with maybe a summary of what each ship subclass gets that's different from the main class, i.e. sci ship vs sci dread).

    Set bonuses, which ones are ship specific vs general, sorted by which type of stats or buffs they provide.
  • kronin#4685 kronin Member Posts: 325 Arc User
    @valoreah
    Cleraly you do not know the same people I've met. Obviously, the people who have left over this issue are no longer in-game, so of course you don't know them. (Need I even say that?) Now that you've met me and chatted with me in this forum, you can now say that you've met someone who had this problem. And I'm not the only one. When you say that you and your friends didn't run into this problem, I believe you. What's wierd to me is that when I tell you others have run into this, you don't believe me and you want to fight it. I'm happy to agree to disagree, and accept that different people have had different experiences with this game. The devs asked what they could teach better in-game, and some of us believe that ship builds is a valid answer to that question, even if it's not something that will enrich your life.
  • trennantrennan Member Posts: 2,839 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    (flame/troll post removed) - darkbladejk
    Post edited by darkbladejk on
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  • kyle223catkyle223cat Member Posts: 584 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    (response to redacted post removed) - darkbladejk
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  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,587 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    (response to redacted post removed) - darkbladejk
    Post edited by darkbladejk on
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  • trennantrennan Member Posts: 2,839 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    (flame/troll post removed - darkbladejk
    Post edited by darkbladejk on
    Mm5NeXy.gif
  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,918 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    The title of this thread was simply a question as to how we, the players, think they can essentually create better tutorials


    Yeah, that ship has sailed.

    Next time someone complains that Cryptic doesn't ask for feedback, all they need to do is link this thread. They asked for feedback and people used this thread as a soap box to cry about things they don't like, or pick apart other suggestions without offering anything of their own. This thread has been taken horribly off topic, all while our 'fantastic' moderators do nothing but lock other threads for no real reason at all.

    This thread is a total picture of everything wrong with this community from the posters to the moderators. Just an overall pathetic display, but thanks to the few players that did attempt to stay on topic and offered suggestions. Too bad we were ultimately drown out by off topic complainers. They should just delete this entire thread, it's obvious this community cannot handle a simple request for feedback.

    Now I'll just wait for some power tripping ego maniac to come along and delete my post, all while doing nothing about the actual off topic posts.
    Insert witty signature line here.
  • where2r1where2r1 Member Posts: 6,054 Arc User
    Yeah, I am confused what Kael needs any more.
    "Spend your life doing strange things with weird people." -- UNK

    “Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
  • tunebreakertunebreaker Member Posts: 1,222 Arc User
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    The title of this thread was simply a question as to how we, the players, think they can essentually create better tutorials


    Yeah, that ship has sailed.

    Next time someone complains that Cryptic doesn't ask for feedback, all they need to do is link this thread. They asked for feedback and people used this thread as a soap box to cry about things they don't like, or pick apart other suggestions without offering anything of their own. This thread has been taken horribly off topic, all while our 'fantastic' moderators do nothing but lock other threads for no real reason at all.

    This thread is a total picture of everything wrong with this community from the posters to the moderators. Just an overall pathetic display, but thanks to the few players that did attempt to stay on topic and offered suggestions. Too bad we were ultimately drown out by off topic complainers. They should just delete this entire thread, it's obvious this community cannot handle a simple request for feedback.

    Now I'll just wait for some power tripping ego maniac to come along and delete my post, all while doing nothing about the actual off topic posts.

    If you ever wondered why devs seem to prefer Reddit...
    https://www.reddit.com/r/sto/comments/9b19nt/what_could_we_teach_better/
  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,587 Arc User
    This thread has been taken horribly off topic, all while our 'fantastic' moderators do nothing but lock other threads for no real reason at all.


    Kinda like my 'New FAW nerf?' thread. There I was, thinking we were having a civil discussion -- and entirely on-topic even -- about why Shards apparently don't get hit by FAW, and, wham, thread gets closed.
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  • darkbladejkdarkbladejk Member Posts: 3,698 Community Moderator
    [mod sword in hand] some folks in here need to dial it way back. Folks are free to post negative opinions and offer their suggestions provided they're done so in a constructive and respectful manor. However what will not be tolerated is flaming Cryptic or other users. [mod sword sheathed]
    "Someone once told me that time was a predator that stalked us all our lives. I rather believe that time is a companion who goes with us on the journey and reminds us to cherish every moment, because it will never come again." - Jean Luc Picard in Star Trek Generations

    Star Trek Online volunteer Community Moderator
  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 10,354 Arc User
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    This thread has been taken horribly off topic, all while our 'fantastic' moderators do nothing but lock other threads for no real reason at all.


    Kinda like my 'New FAW nerf?' thread. There I was, thinking we were having a civil discussion -- and entirely on-topic even -- about why Shards apparently don't get hit by FAW, and, wham, thread gets closed.
    Thread got closed because conclusion was reached - it wasn't a nerf, just a mechanic. And once that point had been reached, the thread had nowhere to go but down.

    As for what could be taught better? There could be some mention in the tutorial of the power levels, and what they mean. Maybe even some hints about when it might be a good idea to shift power from, say, thrusters to shields or weapons to thrust. As it is, that one took me a good long while to work out for myself. (And again, there's no one-size-fits-all solution to this, despite what I hear from some prescriptivists out there - there are times when you want weapons to have priority, and there are times when a little less damage and a little more survivability is in order.)
    Lorna-Wing-sig.png
  • legendarylycan#5411 legendarylycan Member Posts: 37,276 Arc User
    as ruin always says, the entropy of a closed system must always increase...the longer a thread remains open once its purpose has been fulfilled, the chance of it going to TRIBBLE increases exponentially with every new post​​
    Like special weapons from other Star Trek games? Wondering if they can be replicated in STO even a little bit? Check this out: https://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1262277/a-mostly-comprehensive-guide-to-star-trek-videogame-special-weapons-and-their-sto-equivalents

    #LegalizeAwoo

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    A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"


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  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,587 Arc User
    jonsills wrote: »
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    This thread has been taken horribly off topic, all while our 'fantastic' moderators do nothing but lock other threads for no real reason at all.


    Kinda like my 'New FAW nerf?' thread. There I was, thinking we were having a civil discussion -- and entirely on-topic even -- about why Shards apparently don't get hit by FAW, and, wham, thread gets closed.
    Thread got closed because conclusion was reached - it wasn't a nerf, just a mechanic. And once that point had been reached, the thread had nowhere to go but down.


    And we were just about figuring out *what* mechanic exactly was taking place... and then it got shut down. You know, sometimes it's useful not just to know what's *not* going on, but, emerging from that conclusion, what actually IS.
    3lsZz0w.jpg
  • ltminnsltminns Member Posts: 12,569 Arc User
    I don't see 'nowhere to go but down' in the FCT. We're walking on eggshells with the Sword of Damocles hanging above.
    'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
    Judge Dan Haywood
    'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
    l don't know.
    l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
    That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
    Lt. Philip J. Minns
This discussion has been closed.