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My problems with TRIBBLE

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  • starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,949 Arc User
    edited August 2018
    > @patrickngo said:
    > but doesn't that seem convenient?? also, where's her injuries from crossing hard vacuum? even short exposure can f*ck a human being up,and if there's enough fine control to pass a large body through an atmospheric seal, (without losing air) how?

    Yeah, I'll give you that she didn't get injured by vacuum exposure but I honestly don't expect 100% hardcore realism from Star Trek. That's only been portrayed correctly once in the entire televised canon (the novels get it right occasionally).

    Remember: Star Trek is soft sci-fi written by English majors.

    > @batrickngo wrote:
    > and how 'bout that ambient radiation that was supposed to be there? does the forcefield somehow block all that too? (remember from episode 1, the reason she had a short walk was that the radiation in the area was really, really high...high enough ot be hazardous in a full-blown set of life support armor)

    She was floating in space unconscious for several minutes that time. She was exposed for mere seconds this time. The facing of the ship relative to the radiation source could also be a factor (on her previous EVA, i recall her using the asteroids as cover).
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  • legendarylycan#5411 legendarylycan Member Posts: 36,757 Arc User
    a few second's exposure to a vacuum isn't going to do a damn thing...NASA exposed animals for up to two MINUTES, and they recovered with no major ill effects

    which is why everyone complaining about it happening to leia in TLJ needs to be bitchslapped - HARD​​
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  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,948 Arc User
    I rewatched the scene on Netflix, and I figure the writers might have read this article, or sone article like it:
    https://www.cnet.com/news/what-happens-to-the-unprotected-human-body-in-space/
    The first thing you would notice is the lack of air. You wouldn't lose consciousness straight away; it might take up to 15 seconds as your body uses up the remaining oxygen reserves from your bloodstream, and -- if you don't hold your breath -- you could perhaps survive for as long as two minutes without permanent injury.

    The other things, you can't really do much about. After about 10 seconds or so, your skin and the tissue underneath will begin to swell as the water in your body starts to vaporise in the absence of atmospheric pressure. You won't balloon to the point of exploding, though, since human skin is strong enough to keep from bursting; and, if you're brought back to atmospheric pressure, your skin and tissue will return to normal.

    The computer explicitely states the 15 second limit, and Burnham explains that if the computer were to open a small hole large enough to let her through and open the door for her, she would be exposed to space for about 6 seconds.

    I am not convinced the depiction of how she starts her flight is entirely physically correct (even assuming force fields like that could exist), but what is seen on screen means indeed about 6 seconds of time in vacuum. Which would suggest that any of the mentioned effects of the article would either not happen at all, or could return to normal.

    Wow, that's a lot of nitpicking for a brief scene of a Star Trek episode...
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  • valoreahvaloreah Member Posts: 10,868 Arc User
    patrickngo wrote: »
    tbh I'm just having fun with this topic in general terms, after all, we're talking about a franchise that's had sound in space forever and where starships all share the same vertical plane and orientation as if there were a 'down' in space that everyone agrees on.

    Everyone sharing "up and down" does make sense. You would have to use your position in relation to the galactic plane in order to determine course properly.
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  • ryan218ryan218 Member Posts: 35,948 Arc User
    valoreah wrote: »
    patrickngo wrote: »
    tbh I'm just having fun with this topic in general terms, after all, we're talking about a franchise that's had sound in space forever and where starships all share the same vertical plane and orientation as if there were a 'down' in space that everyone agrees on.

    Everyone sharing "up and down" does make sense. You would have to use your position in relation to the galactic plane in order to determine course properly.

    And everyone just decided that the same direction from that plane was 'up' and not 'down'? ;)
  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,450 Bug Hunter
    I just hope to any gods that some of the people in this thread don't work in prisons or secure hospitals.​​
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    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
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  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 9,543 Arc User
    Artan, unless your prison or secure hospital is located at the bottom of the ocean or in orbit, the life-support and security questions are handled very differently. It's extremely unlikely, for instance, that a prison is going to be staffed as poorly as a brig, as the prison's primary raison d'etre is secure confinement of dangerous prisoners while a brig is more of an add-on to an existing craft and primarily intended for the temporary confinement of someone who has committed a minor offense, or the temporary confinement of a more dangerous person until they can be transferred to a dedicated facility (anyone being confined for transfer but who is judged to be less dangerous would generally simply be confined to quarters, with an external lock or single guard at the only point of entry/egress).

    The situations being discussed here are inapplicable to those facilities; the closest a secure wing of a hospital might experience to loss of atmosphere, for instance, would be a release of toxic gases, and those can be vented by opening a window. You can't vent the vacuum from a holed spacecraft by opening a porthole and letting the vacuum out.
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  • momoffour#2334 momoffour Member Posts: 2 Arc User
    > @talonxv said:
    > Yes I'm going to tackle this. And you guys are free to list your comments and concerns with the show.
    >
    > Starting with the Klingons.
    > 1. Their Klingon sounds HORRIBLE. Just use it here and there then use the universal translator. My god it hurts my ears.
    > 2. Ships. You're trying to tell me those...things....are set in between Ent and TOS? Yeah no.
    > 3. However I could of bought it if those Klingons were an offshoot of the mutagenic virus that swept the Empire during Ent and left for the fringes of the empire to be alone and find their own way and now are back to fix the spineless pah'taq and lead the empire back to glory. Not a cheap shot at conservatism that has been sweeping the western world lately as a backlash to progressivism.
    >
    > Now the Federation.
    > 1. Technology. Specifically the spore drive and holographic communications. The former, because that tech simply does not fit. WAY too advanced for the day. This is something I'd expect to find in STO years after the Dominion war. Not 10 years before STO. And holographic coms? Ummm NO. That was JUST beginning to be toyed with in DS9 around 2371. Not 2254. Just NO.
    > 2. Burnham. I abhor her character. All of it. Supplanting Spock as a HUMAN in the eyes of Sarek? Umm who wrote that mess? Mutiny? Wanting to shoot the Klingons without provocation flying in the face of Logic? Just a never ending message of badly written female empowerment of saying "hey you can break every rule in the book. But still be the hero." Make Burnham a male, yeah he'd if gone to prison and never seen the light of day.
    > 3. Ship design. Felt like a retooled JJ verse show. Sizing was upscaled for no reason while trying to be prime timeline. Had this been it's own separate line, most of my issues disappear. Except for Burnham.
    > 4. How I'd fix tech issues:
    > A. Scale correctly!!!
    > B. Replace spore drive with Transwarp. Now before we slip a gear. Excelsior was not stated in the movie to be the first ship ever to have it. Could of been the first ship to see if the tech could be used and massed produced while Discovery could be the first ship to actually be proof of concept. But at the time the federation didn't have the resources to mass produce the tech needed to fully outfit the fleet. And the holo communications, DITCH THEM. Use a damn screen like everyone else!!!
    > 5. Aesthetics. Hey I get that if Gene had the tech of today, TOS would look WAY different. But stop going overboard and stop creeping ideas over from JJ verse. I get a lot of the production crew worked on those movies, but pull your heads out of your 6 if you want to be in the prime timeline for God's sake!
    >
    > What didn't bother me.
    > 1. Lorca. Too bad though he didn't get long enough screen time.
    > 2. **** on screen relationship in a show. Didn't feel forced and felt organic to the show.
    > 3. Holly wasn't bad but at times a bit too comical.
    > 4. Re imagined Enterprise looked good. Almost like the second flight Enterprise the producers had in mind until they went with the TMP refit style. Someone said it best, JJ should of used a design like that in his movies.
    >
    > Those are my biggest bones of contention with the show. TRIBBLE is a major victim of the times we live in. Yes Star Trek many times pushed social issues into the show. Many times it felt organic to the story. Sometimes it was a bit too on the nose like the TNG episode that warp drive was hurting the universe. Biggest issue with the show it's almost ALL completely on the nose with its message and feels like they are beating me over the head with what they want to say rather than creatively sliding it into the story.
    >
    > Just my thoughts and views. Take them as you will.

    I totally agree! I couldn't get into TRIBBLE just because to me it wasn't as good. I mean the Klingon was just horrible and I just didn't understand why they chose to go back and do a prequel? My thoughts are just why or why?
  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,450 Bug Hunter
    jonsills wrote: »
    Artan, unless your prison or secure hospital is located at the bottom of the ocean or in orbit, the life-support and security questions are handled very differently. It's extremely unlikely, for instance, that a prison is going to be staffed as poorly as a brig, as the prison's primary raison d'etre is secure confinement of dangerous prisoners while a brig is more of an add-on to an existing craft and primarily intended for the temporary confinement of someone who has committed a minor offense, or the temporary confinement of a more dangerous person until they can be transferred to a dedicated facility (anyone being confined for transfer but who is judged to be less dangerous would generally simply be confined to quarters, with an external lock or single guard at the only point of entry/egress).

    The situations being discussed here are inapplicable to those facilities; the closest a secure wing of a hospital might experience to loss of atmosphere, for instance, would be a release of toxic gases, and those can be vented by opening a window. You can't vent the vacuum from a holed spacecraft by opening a porthole and letting the vacuum out.

    I'm referring to the people who would rather their prisoners die
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    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
    JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

    #TASforSTO


    '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
    'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
    'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
    '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
    'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
    '...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek

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  • starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,949 Arc User
    patrickngo wrote: »
    valoreah wrote: »
    patrickngo wrote: »
    tbh I'm just having fun with this topic in general terms, after all, we're talking about a franchise that's had sound in space forever and where starships all share the same vertical plane and orientation as if there were a 'down' in space that everyone agrees on.

    Everyone sharing "up and down" does make sense. You would have to use your position in relation to the galactic plane in order to determine course properly.

    x,y,and z axis movement is independent, and it's not necessarily predicated on the galactic plane. for example, they could use a system derived from inertial navigation using fixed, known points, or expansion could've been begun along the Z axis instead of the X or Y axes, in which case 'down' is going to be different, and even using the galactic plane as your x/y doesnt' mean you're going to be the same 'up' as sophonts from as close as the next star system over.

    further, "Down" is toward the gravity well if you're using it based on forces, and the biggest gravity well in the galaxy is right at the center. there's actually no practical reason for starships encountering each other to share a facing, where they're both using the same 'up' reference in the same way.

    also the galaxy is three dimensions and while it looks 'thin', that thinness is quite a few hundred light years deep even in OUR end of the unfashionable western spiral arm of the milky-way. Direction of travel being "Forward" makes sense, but that doesn't assume approach angles would be the same. They could be perpendicular, for example, or his 'up' can be your 'down'.
    The galaxy does, however, have a magnetic field, ergo a magnetic "north" and "south" that can be used to orient. But realistically, outside of having to dock at a space station or something of that nature, orientation is going to be down to any given crew's preference.

    On that note, one of the cooler shots in the '09 Star Trek has the Enterprise approach the Narada almost upside-down relative.
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  • valoreahvaloreah Member Posts: 10,868 Arc User
    patrickngo wrote: »
    x,y,and z axis movement is independent, and it's not necessarily predicated on the galactic plane.

    Has to be predicated on something. You couldn't set a proper course without it.

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  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 9,543 Arc User
    The galactic coordinate system, used for navigation, would of necessity have a three-dimensional (or more, depending on the number of spacelike dimensions in warp math) system, predicated most likely on a Cartesian-style grid centered on the galactic center of rotation (as the easiest point of reference no matter your relative location); however, you could approach such a point from nearly any "direction", so that ships should hang at all angles relative to one another.

    On the other hand, that's confusing to the viewer - consider as an example the establishing shot of the Kelvin and the Narada in the '09 movie, in which no relative "vertical" is ever established for the viewer. It's realistic, and lends itself to the sensation of being in zero-g; however, it was difficult, until a much longer shot was set up, to understand the positions of the ships relative to one another. The convention of establishing a local vertical when two or more ships meet is much easier on us than a realistic depiction.
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  • starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,949 Arc User
    edited August 2018
    jonsills wrote: »
    The galactic coordinate system, used for navigation, would of necessity have a three-dimensional (or more, depending on the number of spacelike dimensions in warp math) system, predicated most likely on a Cartesian-style grid centered on the galactic center of rotation (as the easiest point of reference no matter your relative location); however, you could approach such a point from nearly any "direction", so that ships should hang at all angles relative to one another.

    On the other hand, that's confusing to the viewer - consider as an example the establishing shot of the Kelvin and the Narada in the '09 movie, in which no relative "vertical" is ever established for the viewer. It's realistic, and lends itself to the sensation of being in zero-g; however, it was difficult, until a much longer shot was set up, to understand the positions of the ships relative to one another. The convention of establishing a local vertical when two or more ships meet is much easier on us than a realistic depiction.

    The galaxy being roughly circular, I tend to prefer cylindrical coordinates to Cartesian. The advantage being, that way there's only one axis you're defining arbitrarily, as opposed to two. You can get "up" and "down" from the galaxy's magnetic field as an elevation from the galactic plane (Sol is estimated somewhere between 75-101 LY above it currently). You can also base your horizontal position on the spin direction of the galaxy (0° still has to be determined arbitrarily; I expect the Federation uses the Sol system as its "prime meridian"), and your "depth" as a distance from the center.
    Cylindrical_coordinate_surfaces.gif


    Spherical coordinates are also possible but have the same problem as Cartesian: two axes have to be arbitrarily located.
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  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 9,543 Arc User
    Okay, catching up - and it turns out that at least at the Battle of the Binary Stars, there was a reason for a local "up". The ships had to orient themselves such that they could avoid the protoplanetary disc surrounding the (apparently quite young) stars. "Up" is then "away from the disc", for ease of navigation by creatures that evolved in a gravity field.

    And the method by which Burnham got out of her cell was highly logical; if she stayed in her cell, the field was on the brink of collapse, and if the field just dropped, she was dead. The odds were against her chosen method succeeding - but it was the only thing that offered a better-than-zero chance of survival; it was clear there were no nearby personnel at all, as someone suffering from a highly obvious concussion was able to just stumble in under the impression he'd reached sickbay, so there was no rescue coming. And it wasn't a jailbreak, because she didn't escape, she actually sought out the very people who'd sent her to the brig in the first place.
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  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,450 Bug Hunter
    jonsills wrote: »
    Okay, catching up - and it turns out that at least at the Battle of the Binary Stars, there was a reason for a local "up". The ships had to orient themselves such that they could avoid the protoplanetary disc surrounding the (apparently quite young) stars. "Up" is then "away from the disc", for ease of navigation by creatures that evolved in a gravity field.

    And the method by which Burnham got out of her cell was highly logical; if she stayed in her cell, the field was on the brink of collapse, and if the field just dropped, she was dead. The odds were against her chosen method succeeding - but it was the only thing that offered a better-than-zero chance of survival; it was clear there were no nearby personnel at all, as someone suffering from a highly obvious concussion was able to just stumble in under the impression he'd reached sickbay, so there was no rescue coming. And it wasn't a jailbreak, because she didn't escape, she actually sought out the very people who'd sent her to the brig in the first place.

    What are you doing watching it in order to formulate an argument? You're not playing the game correctly @jonsills. You're supposed to rant based on hearsay and rumours.

    I can only hope that when you did watch it you had the decency to only pay the minimum of attention and turn it off half way through once you'd guessed you'd seen all you needed to.​​
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    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
    JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

    #TASforSTO


    '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
    'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
    'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
    '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
    'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
    '...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek

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  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 9,543 Arc User
    No, artan, I'm afraid I'm a loose cannon who plays by his own rules, and the Chief will be demanding my badge by the end of the second act. I'm actually watching the episodes all the way through, being highly entertained so far, and seeing that about 80% of the complaints I've read are nonsense. (On the other hand, securing an area by breath analysis, possibly the least-accurate biometric method of all? That was silly.)
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  • ryan218ryan218 Member Posts: 35,948 Arc User
    What is this? A well-constructed argument based on personal experience specifically arranged to allow the fairest and most accurate analysis possible (i.e. watching the full thing) and subsequently making a reasoned argument? Jon, don't you know this is the internet?!

    :p;)
  • angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 10,619 Arc User
    To be honest, I don't care at all for the positioning of ships in space. I want them to look good and not have one float upside down - no show ever did this, so using this as a point of criticism for DSC is silly. Just as picking one very plausible (by established in-universe logic) thing and claiming letting people die is preferable to saving them because.
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  • legendarylycan#5411 legendarylycan Member Posts: 36,757 Arc User
    and that's how it's always been done in every bit of sci-fi before and after too; there is no sci-fi i've ever seen where ships NOT in combat weren't right-side up relative to the camera nor where sounds didn't proliferate freely through a vacuum

    in fact, ST 2009 was the first instance of the latter i EVER saw, even if it was only for a few seconds​​
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  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 9,543 Arc User
    ryan218 wrote: »
    patrickngo wrote: »
    starswordc wrote: »
    > @ryan218 said:
    > Who was backed up by @jonsills who actually served (I don't know about @starswordc) and thus is actually likely to have read the UCMJ. Heck, both actually referred you to the articles which actually relate to Burnham's situation.

    Didn't serve myself (I tried to enlist but was declined because I'm on the autism spectrum), but I am part of a Navy family going back several generations and I can do research perfectly well. (If all else fails, my father was a surface warfare officer for five years and an engineering duty officer for fifteen, '79-'99.)

    > @starkaos said:
    > I have never understood why they would rely only on forcefields. Power goes down and everyone is doomed. Low tech solutions are usually the best since there are less things that can go wrong.

    I could see force fields being a stopgap until a physical patch could be put in, but Star Trek overuses them significantly.

    > @angrytarg said:
    > I had to rewatch the scene and I really don't want to do that, but from what I remember Michael had to void-dive to the other side. That means the door could not be opened but the forcefields were failing. Sitting in that cell was certain death, risking the void dive was slightly less certain death. My memory is not that fresh but I am very certain they established that she could not just sit there.

    This is exactly the scene as broadcast, Targ. The brig had been reduced to a chunk of wall and a floor. Pressure is being held by emergency force fields around Burnham; however, these are stated by the ship's computer to be IMMINENTLY failing. There is a pressure sealed DOOR about a dozen meters away, close enough for a physically fit person to void-jump to. Burnham is a Starfleet officer: we know at least as far back as VOY: "Learning Curve", as well as from a later episode of DSC, that extensive PT is part of the job. Plus, Burnham was raised on Vulcan, which has 1.5 Earth's gravity, and therefore is stronger than the average human female to begin with (probably not as strong as an actual Vulcan, though). We also know from the very next episode that she is a martial artist. She is physically fit.

    So: Chance of survival if she stays in the cell, 0%. Chance of survival if she breaks out? Poor—she's still passing through hard vacuum unprotected—but non-zero.

    chance that she endangers teh rest of the ship (or portions) opening that door? (unless they've conveniently placed additional airlocks:pretty good)

    If you'd bothered to watch the scene you're analysing, you'd remember that the computer put up an additional forcefield to make sure when she opened the door pressure wasn't lost.
    Oh, just reminded myself of this, which I'd meant to address after watching the scene in question. Your recollection is in error; the fields holding the atmosphere in place in the corridor were already there, and pressure had already been lost in the brig (else the cell's field dropping would not have been an issue). The only manipulation was the opening of a one-meter hole in the cell's field, so that Burnham could "surf" the escaping air and be blown to the corridor door in less than six seconds (well within the fifteen-second window the computer would permit). It would then open that door just long enough for her to get into the corridor, where there was still atmosphere.
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  • redvengeredvenge Member Posts: 1,425 Arc User
    Fascinating thread. I don't know how I could have missed this.

    Something about Spock in Star Trek: Discovery?

    https://www.tvguide.com/news/star-trek-discovery-season-2-spock-different/
    "This is not entirely the Spock who has been formed enough to be the Spock that we know from TOS. There's a lot of story about who Spock was before he becomes the Spock that is the yin-yang to Kirk," Kurtzman told TV Guide. "What I'm so excited about is that we have an opportunity to present a version of Spock that's both totally consistent with the Spock everyone knows but very, very different. And it's all gonna tie to how we sync up with canon."
    Does Kurtzman only speak in gobbilty-TRIBBLE? "We are going to see a consistent and inconsistent version of Spock". Well, par for the course here. Spock was not written consistently to begin with.
    "We're certainly gonna see Spock and we're gonna be exploring those family dynamics," she said. "We're gonna see a lot between them." Added executive producer Heather Kadin, "I think that like any brother or sister, there's love. There's deep wells of stuff. That's what's so great about exploring that relationship, is there's a lot of tricky stuff that we get to dig into."
    The aloof Vulcan... who never talks about his family (the entire reason his new-old half-sister is marginally acceptable) is going to be "all about the feels" with his half-sister that he never talks about.

    Well, you did tell us Spock was going to be "inconsistent". You weren't wrong!

    Dear writers of TRIBBLE,

    Develop your own characters. Find your own voice. Stop digging up old characters to impress an audience that does not exist. You have an audience. Write for THEM.
  • angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 10,619 Arc User
    redvenge wrote: »
    Dear writers of TRIBBLE,

    Develop your own characters. Find your own voice. Stop digging up old characters to impress an audience that does not exist. You have an audience. Write for THEM.

    Regardless of how they will handle S2 and Spock, I agree. The whole need to burden Spock on Michael and tie it all to everything is not a good way in my opinion.

    If I had a say in the show I would have shown the earlier UFP ships fare in the conflict with the Klingons and facing some internal struggle due to crews mostly operating as all-Humans, all-Vulcans or all-Tellarites. I would have made the "Discovery" be the ship that evolves and sees the benefit of further cooperation between the peoples to develop to the (more) diverse UFP and Starfleet we know later.​​
    lFC4bt2.gif
    ^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
    "No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
    "A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
    "That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 9,543 Arc User
    Yes, Spock as always and consistently been the stoic who never displays a trace of emotion.

    Spock_Smile.jpg
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  • smokebaileysmokebailey Member Posts: 4,324 Arc User
    angrytarg wrote: »
    redvenge wrote: »
    Dear writers of TRIBBLE,

    Develop your own characters. Find your own voice. Stop digging up old characters to impress an audience that does not exist. You have an audience. Write for THEM.

    Regardless of how they will handle S2 and Spock, I agree. The whole need to burden Spock on Michael and tie it all to everything is not a good way in my opinion.

    If I had a say in the show I would have shown the earlier UFP ships fare in the conflict with the Klingons and facing some internal struggle due to crews mostly operating as all-Humans, all-Vulcans or all-Tellarites. I would have made the "Discovery" be the ship that evolves and sees the benefit of further cooperation between the peoples to develop to the (more) diverse UFP and Starfleet we know later.​​

    Not to mention....SHOW MORE EXTERNAL SHIP SHOTS, and MORE SHIPS.
    It's like they blew most of the budget getting Lorca's actor. :s
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