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My problems with TRIBBLE

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  • shadowfang240shadowfang240 Member Posts: 36,138 Arc User
    well, it isn't really that hard to believe within star trek's universe given how transporters work....they break you down bit by bit by turning matter to energy, then repeating the process in reverse at the target location - the process doesn't paralyze you and the beam needs to remain stable to complete the process, otherwise the safeties kick in and cancel the process, reconstituting you at the original location - so trying to force yourself out of an annular confinement beam mid-transport would be one solid way of destabilizing it and triggering that failsafe

    i have no explanation for the explosion, however​​
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  • valoreahvaloreah Member Posts: 10,745 Arc User
    I don't see what's the big deal with the computer allowing Burnham to exit the brig. I don't see Starfleet as being the "let the folk in the brig die" kind of organization.

    Seems to me the system would have fail safes built in to allow for stuff like massive hull breaches etc. The ship was under attack with most of the brig totally destroyed and open to space. I also seem to recall the alert saying power failure to the brig force field was imminent. Makes sense the AI would allow for exit under those circumstances.
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  • coldnapalmcoldnapalm Member Posts: 9,357 Arc User
    well, it isn't really that hard to believe within star trek's universe given how transporters work....they break you down bit by bit by turning matter to energy, then repeating the process in reverse at the target location - the process doesn't paralyze you and the beam needs to remain stable to complete the process, otherwise the safeties kick in and cancel the process, reconstituting you at the original location - so trying to force yourself out of an annular confinement beam mid-transport would be one solid way of destabilizing it and triggering that failsafe

    i have no explanation for the explosion, however​​

    But don't they have scenes where people are running when they transport? Because if that is the case, that should break the transporter beam as well...and a whole slew of other scenes don't make sense. A bad scene is a bad scene, no matter what series it's from. There is no point attempting mental gymnastics to try and defend a bad scene.
  • coldnapalmcoldnapalm Member Posts: 9,357 Arc User
    azrael605 wrote: »
    > @shadowfang240 said:
    > uh, when did that happen? the only time i remember a transporter beam failing in TNG was when one of those supersoldiers some alien government created to a fight a war, then imprisoned when the war was over, punched his way out of the beam and caused a huge explosion​​

    That's exactly what I'm talking about. That soldier, Roga Danar, had no tech on him at all. He pushed his way out of a transporter beam with his empty hands, no damping field, no transport inhibiter, literally nothing except his will. Yet people nitpick much better episodes that utilized an establoshed precedent, lifesaving brig release was established by dialog from Tuvok at the latest, it may have been mentioned in TNG as well but Tuvok made specific mention of the brig force field dropping if there was a hull breach in the brig. As that is from a point in the timeline after Burnham it could easily be incidents like what happened wuth the Shenzou that caused such a protocol to be established. But no people just want to nitpick stuff for no good reason at all.

    I would not say that the scene with Roga was any good either. It was a terrible scene as well. Yes, the fields dropping AUTOMATICALLY would have been a none issue. Having something so stupid that it destorys my suspension of disbelief right away is not a "nitpick". It is a major issue. And it's not even this one scene. In TRIBBLE, it happens ALL THE FRAKING TIME. Or at least in the first three episode I was willing to watch for free. I was sure as hell not gonna give CBS money to see more of a show I hated just in the slim hope that they actually made it any better.

    As for what happened in the actual scene...please read as to why it is freaking idiotic.
  • jcswwjcsww Member Posts: 6,264 Arc User
    Talk about misleading! I come in here expecing answers like, "It burns when I pee!", and , "The itching! THE ITCHING!!!". Very disappointed! :P
  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,900 Arc User
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    artan42 wrote: »
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    So...you are saying that prisoners today can have computer access...but not to prison critical systems. Likes say a system that controls the doors of said prisons. You know the system that they gave access to Burnham...because reasons. Seriously, why are people even protecting this level of stupid?!? Have we gotten so dumb that we can't even realize how stupid of an idea it is to give PRISONERS access to systems that CONTROLS THE FRAKING PRISON?!? Like did you even think about this at all before you posted this?!? By your own words, she should NOT have had access to the system she did.

    Seriously, the scene would have worked better if the system protocal automatically just flushed her towards the opened door after doing a quick risk analysis instead of trying to once again show off how fraking awesome Michael effing Burnham is because she can out smart a computer. Bloody moronic in everyway.

    Oh I'm sorry. Did Burnham say' Computer open the door please' and the computer say 'okaydokey mate' and comply? No. Burnham basically used the equivalent of pressing the red panic button used for medical emergencies.
    Did you even think about anything before you posted or just think you were being clever?
    Next time do one of two things (though preferably both) watch the episode you're complaining about or read the post your replying to properly.
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    So...hundreds of years in the future, we have becomes so stupid that the security procedure is to give prisoners access to prison controls. k. I didn't realize we were watchinh idiocracy...I thought we were watching star trek. But you know what...with TRIBBLE, you maybe right...it is idiocracy after all. Nevermind, carry on.

    Never mind the above then. You clearly don't want to. Firstly you imply Star Trek has ever done things sensibly rather than dramatically and secondly you just use another chance to b|tch about DSC. Grow up.

    ​​

    When you press a big red emergency button in a PRISON, the prison system does not just open your cell door. It summons a PERSON to make the call. Remember that the computer AI does not have REAL intelligence. That does not happen with an AI until Soong makes Lore and Data and possibly whatever models that comes before...like B4. If you design a prison system where you could just press the big red button and the door opens...guess what sweet pea, you have a security system from idiocracy. I would ask if you think before you post...but your reply gives me a pretty clear idea of the answer to that question. And yes I did watch and read the replies before posting. At least you did that part too.

    As for dramatic over sensible...yeah I get that. But there is a differance between doing the long shot choice and having it work...vs just pure stupidity of the situation to begin with. I am okay with drama that is made by doing the hard thing and having it work out...or not. It gives insight into why a character may do what they do. Stories would really be boring is everyone always made the most sensible choice. But in this case, the drama is caused by shear stupidity of either the security procedure...or the computer programmers being completely inept in application of security procedures. And I didn't realize that me critising a show was me being childish. Or are we not allowed to critise a show YOU like at all. Because you know, going nah nah, you can't say bad things about anything I like is SOOO grown up. Grown ups when faced with critism actually proicess said critism instead of plugging their ears and going nuh uh.
    What is "real" intelligence is very debatable, but we know that in a decade, Daystrom will present Starfleet with a computer that can completely automate the operation and decision-making process of a Constitution class starship.

    This seems a relatively harmless precursor technology. It means that red button doesn't need to summon a warden, it simply launches a specialized AI. But it's not smart enough to analyze all possible actions, because there are a ton of possible situations and a ton of possible actions. Instead it's designed to be able to evaluate proposed actions.

    If you consider for example a Chess AI: A basic Chess AI often uses two features. One, it has a "Monte Carlo" simulation where it calculates all possible moves, and a value function, that analyzes the "quality" of a given chess game situation. It works by going through all possible moves, then considering the next possible moves and so on, and at any time it can use the value function to select which moves to analyze more deeply, and which to ignore, or "prune".
    But Chess has a very limited set of possible moves. So it's easy to find the list of possible moves.

    But if you involve a person in a room with a variable set of features (like a force field that is losing power, a fire somewhere, a hull breach somewhere else or whatever), determining all the possible moves is hard. The possibility space grows ridiculously fast, and trying to simulate all the "moves" takes already significant amount of time (finding them already does).
    An AI in such a scenario might need some "hints" on which moves to consider.

    It could very well be that the AI in fact did perform a possible set of moves, and decided to prune the ones that would be similar to Burnham's suggestion. Since many of the possible moves including lowering the force field early end with an even earlier death. The value functions for these paths would probably quickly suggest it's a bad idea, and the idea of sustaining the force field as long as possible yielded the best path. Still ends with death, if no one else intervenes, but at least it's x minutes of survival, vs. 30 seconds or however long Burnham could hope to survive in vacuum.
    So, the AI selects "stay here". But it is open to a "real" intelligence suggesting a course of action, and evaluating the possible outcomes.






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  • shadowfang240shadowfang240 Member Posts: 36,138 Arc User
    and we also know that a few well-chosen words will send that computer into a coma, because apparently paradox correctors are ANOTHER thing that starfleet doesn't have in addition to fuses and seatbelts​​
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  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,450 Bug Hunter
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    When you press a big red emergency button in a PRISON, the prison system does not just open your cell door. It summons a PERSON to make the call.

    And unlike a red button the Computer can understand that as there are no other people around to sort the prisoner out they'll have to make a decision.
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    Remember that the computer AI does not have REAL intelligence. That does not happen with an AI until Soong makes Lore and Data and possibly whatever models that comes before...like B4.

    You do not need artificial intelligence to make decisions. Decisions trees are the basis of computer programming.
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    If you design a prison system where you could just press the big red button and the door opens...guess what sweet pea, you have a security system from idiocracy.

    That is indeed correct sweep pea. Lucky that's not the case here.
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    I would ask if you think before you post...but your reply gives me a pretty clear idea of the answer to that question. And yes I did watch and read the replies before posting. At least you did that part too.

    Well considering you've made the same error a second time I really think you simply don't understand what the word 'reading' means. It dosn't just mean look at the pretty shape the word makes and guess as to the meaning.
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    And I didn't realize that me critising a show was me being childish. Or are we not allowed to critise a show YOU like at all. Because you know, going nah nah, you can't say bad things about anything I like is SOOO grown up. Grown ups when faced with critism actually proicess said critism instead of plugging their ears and going nuh uh.
    [/quote]

    Criticism is fine. Lazy criticism is for children. Those who haven't realised that what they watched in their childhoods is not the pinnacle of drama and that anything that comes out later is subjected to intense scrutiny their past escaped. Grown ups when criticising things should do so objectively and not just lazily repeat the same thing several times hoping that the counter criticism will just go away.

    There is a damn good reason the computer lets Burnham out. There were no crewmembers left around to assist the prisoner. There was an active conflict going on. The brig was one verge of collabs and the prisoner would die. All that is spelt out by the situation happening in the episode. Lazily suggesting Burnham just asked a red button to be let out and was released is a sign of a lack of faculties and not just those relating to criticism.
    and we also know that a few well-chosen words will send that computer into a coma, because apparently paradox correctors are ANOTHER thing that starfleet doesn't have in addition to fuses and seatbelts

    There is also the whole 'Kirk talks a computer to death' thing. Though that's from TOS so must be protected behind a rose filtered diamond wall.​​
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  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,230 Arc User
    valoreah wrote: »
    I don't see what's the big deal with the computer allowing Burnham to exit the brig. I don't see Starfleet as being the "let the folk in the brig die" kind of organization.

    Seems to me the system would have fail safes built in to allow for stuff like massive hull breaches etc. The ship was under attack with most of the brig totally destroyed and open to space. I also seem to recall the alert saying power failure to the brig force field was imminent. Makes sense the AI would allow for exit under those circumstances.
    Yeah, it's Starfleet, they care more about keeping prisoners alive than keeping them prisoners.
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  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 9,357 Arc User
    and we also know that a few well-chosen words will send that computer into a coma, because apparently paradox correctors are ANOTHER thing that starfleet doesn't have in addition to fuses and seatbelts​​
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  • shadowfang240shadowfang240 Member Posts: 36,138 Arc User
    Captain James T. Kirk made the computer self-destruct by asking it if it was right to kill another being. M-5 said that it was a crime against the laws of Man and God, and, believing that such a crime was punishable by death, deactivated itself. (TOS: "The Ultimate Computer")​​
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    A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"


    "It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."

    "Curiosity is bad! It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed...and more importantly, it makes you poor!"
    Passion and Serenity are one.
    I gain power by understanding both.
    In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
    I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
    The Force is united within me.
  • coldnapalmcoldnapalm Member Posts: 9,357 Arc User
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    artan42 wrote: »
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    So...you are saying that prisoners today can have computer access...but not to prison critical systems. Likes say a system that controls the doors of said prisons. You know the system that they gave access to Burnham...because reasons. Seriously, why are people even protecting this level of stupid?!? Have we gotten so dumb that we can't even realize how stupid of an idea it is to give PRISONERS access to systems that CONTROLS THE FRAKING PRISON?!? Like did you even think about this at all before you posted this?!? By your own words, she should NOT have had access to the system she did.

    Seriously, the scene would have worked better if the system protocal automatically just flushed her towards the opened door after doing a quick risk analysis instead of trying to once again show off how fraking awesome Michael effing Burnham is because she can out smart a computer. Bloody moronic in everyway.

    Oh I'm sorry. Did Burnham say' Computer open the door please' and the computer say 'okaydokey mate' and comply? No. Burnham basically used the equivalent of pressing the red panic button used for medical emergencies.
    Did you even think about anything before you posted or just think you were being clever?
    Next time do one of two things (though preferably both) watch the episode you're complaining about or read the post your replying to properly.
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    So...hundreds of years in the future, we have becomes so stupid that the security procedure is to give prisoners access to prison controls. k. I didn't realize we were watchinh idiocracy...I thought we were watching star trek. But you know what...with TRIBBLE, you maybe right...it is idiocracy after all. Nevermind, carry on.

    Never mind the above then. You clearly don't want to. Firstly you imply Star Trek has ever done things sensibly rather than dramatically and secondly you just use another chance to b|tch about DSC. Grow up.

    ​​

    When you press a big red emergency button in a PRISON, the prison system does not just open your cell door. It summons a PERSON to make the call. Remember that the computer AI does not have REAL intelligence. That does not happen with an AI until Soong makes Lore and Data and possibly whatever models that comes before...like B4. If you design a prison system where you could just press the big red button and the door opens...guess what sweet pea, you have a security system from idiocracy. I would ask if you think before you post...but your reply gives me a pretty clear idea of the answer to that question. And yes I did watch and read the replies before posting. At least you did that part too.

    As for dramatic over sensible...yeah I get that. But there is a differance between doing the long shot choice and having it work...vs just pure stupidity of the situation to begin with. I am okay with drama that is made by doing the hard thing and having it work out...or not. It gives insight into why a character may do what they do. Stories would really be boring is everyone always made the most sensible choice. But in this case, the drama is caused by shear stupidity of either the security procedure...or the computer programmers being completely inept in application of security procedures. And I didn't realize that me critising a show was me being childish. Or are we not allowed to critise a show YOU like at all. Because you know, going nah nah, you can't say bad things about anything I like is SOOO grown up. Grown ups when faced with critism actually proicess said critism instead of plugging their ears and going nuh uh.
    What is "real" intelligence is very debatable, but we know that in a decade, Daystrom will present Starfleet with a computer that can completely automate the operation and decision-making process of a Constitution class starship.

    This seems a relatively harmless precursor technology. It means that red button doesn't need to summon a warden, it simply launches a specialized AI. But it's not smart enough to analyze all possible actions, because there are a ton of possible situations and a ton of possible actions. Instead it's designed to be able to evaluate proposed actions.

    If you consider for example a Chess AI: A basic Chess AI often uses two features. One, it has a "Monte Carlo" simulation where it calculates all possible moves, and a value function, that analyzes the "quality" of a given chess game situation. It works by going through all possible moves, then considering the next possible moves and so on, and at any time it can use the value function to select which moves to analyze more deeply, and which to ignore, or "prune".
    But Chess has a very limited set of possible moves. So it's easy to find the list of possible moves.

    But if you involve a person in a room with a variable set of features (like a force field that is losing power, a fire somewhere, a hull breach somewhere else or whatever), determining all the possible moves is hard. The possibility space grows ridiculously fast, and trying to simulate all the "moves" takes already significant amount of time (finding them already does).
    An AI in such a scenario might need some "hints" on which moves to consider.

    It could very well be that the AI in fact did perform a possible set of moves, and decided to prune the ones that would be similar to Burnham's suggestion. Since many of the possible moves including lowering the force field early end with an even earlier death. The value functions for these paths would probably quickly suggest it's a bad idea, and the idea of sustaining the force field as long as possible yielded the best path. Still ends with death, if no one else intervenes, but at least it's x minutes of survival, vs. 30 seconds or however long Burnham could hope to survive in vacuum.
    So, the AI selects "stay here". But it is open to a "real" intelligence suggesting a course of action, and evaluating the possible outcomes.

    Okay I can accept this explaination mostly. However the computer should STILL not allow the prisoner free without an extra input from somebody else. Even if it is a communication to somebody else with a simple yes no input. I mean, I realize that the feddie bears are incrediable stupid at times in the series...but really, as soon as the prisoner start to interact with the computer, the computer should have ALL security system locked out until somebody else overrides it. That includes dropping shields or opening door. I will say that them not having such common sense security measure is however within the lore of the universe where the federation is like I said, stupid. So...that is a pretty good explaination I will say. However the level of mental gymnastics needed to make it make sense even remotely is high...vs doing something like I suggested. Which still is a sign of a bad scene.
  • coldnapalmcoldnapalm Member Posts: 9,357 Arc User
    artan42 wrote: »
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    When you press a big red emergency button in a PRISON, the prison system does not just open your cell door. It summons a PERSON to make the call.

    And unlike a red button the Computer can understand that as there are no other people around to sort the prisoner out they'll have to make a decision.
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    Remember that the computer AI does not have REAL intelligence. That does not happen with an AI until Soong makes Lore and Data and possibly whatever models that comes before...like B4.

    You do not need artificial intelligence to make decisions. Decisions trees are the basis of computer programming.
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    If you design a prison system where you could just press the big red button and the door opens...guess what sweet pea, you have a security system from idiocracy.

    That is indeed correct sweep pea. Lucky that's not the case here.
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    I would ask if you think before you post...but your reply gives me a pretty clear idea of the answer to that question. And yes I did watch and read the replies before posting. At least you did that part too.

    Well considering you've made the same error a second time I really think you simply don't understand what the word 'reading' means. It dosn't just mean look at the pretty shape the word makes and guess as to the meaning.
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    And I didn't realize that me critising a show was me being childish. Or are we not allowed to critise a show YOU like at all. Because you know, going nah nah, you can't say bad things about anything I like is SOOO grown up. Grown ups when faced with critism actually proicess said critism instead of plugging their ears and going nuh uh.

    Criticism is fine. Lazy criticism is for children. Those who haven't realised that what they watched in their childhoods is not the pinnacle of drama and that anything that comes out later is subjected to intense scrutiny their past escaped. Grown ups when criticising things should do so objectively and not just lazily repeat the same thing several times hoping that the counter criticism will just go away.

    There is a damn good reason the computer lets Burnham out. There were no crewmembers left around to assist the prisoner. There was an active conflict going on. The brig was one verge of collabs and the prisoner would die. All that is spelt out by the situation happening in the episode. Lazily suggesting Burnham just asked a red button to be let out and was released is a sign of a lack of faculties and not just those relating to criticism.
    and we also know that a few well-chosen words will send that computer into a coma, because apparently paradox correctors are ANOTHER thing that starfleet doesn't have in addition to fuses and seatbelts

    There is also the whole 'Kirk talks a computer to death' thing. Though that's from TOS so must be protected behind a rose filtered diamond wall.​​[/quote]

    Wow...you are just full of bad ain't ya.

    Decision tree IS AI. It may not be making independant thought, but it is AI. Which is why such a tree if given to a prisoner should NEVER result in drop shields and open the door. NEVER. I mean if you care about security at all anyways. That is just an idiot design. But hey, if you want admit that the feddie bears are morons in canon and idiocracy happened on earth...k. I'll accept that answer too. Honestly barring plot armor, the feddie bears should have been annilated ages ago with such levels of stupid...but hey who needs a story that makes logical sense when we can have deux ex machina instead. You do realize that is bad story telling...right? And no TRIBBLE is not the only trek series guilty of this...they just broken what most series do in 2 or three seasons in one episode. Honestly however, this scene is at least excusable with mustrum's explaination...which is more than I can say for yours. You give another BAD scene as an excuse as to why this one isn't a BAD scene. That's not how this works. Bad is bad is bad. Oh saying that I am childish and don't understand because you disagree with me...yeah...that's how a grown up actually makes an argument. And ignoring rather LARGE swaths of critism and cherry picking thing until the argument made is saying NOTHING of what it orginal said is also how a grown up does arguements. Yeah...sure. Okay now. Have fun in you delusions there kiddo.
  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 9,357 Arc User
    Oh, yes, let's make sure that the AI that runs the brig aboard a ship that might see combat is programmed to kill the prisoners in the event of a loss of pressure and loss of all personnel assigned to guard duty. Because of course every offense for which one might get brig time, including oversleeping often enough to annoy the captain, deserves the death penalty.
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  • reyan01reyan01 Member Posts: 14,590 Arc User
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    artan42 wrote: »
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    When you press a big red emergency button in a PRISON, the prison system does not just open your cell door. It summons a PERSON to make the call.

    And unlike a red button the Computer can understand that as there are no other people around to sort the prisoner out they'll have to make a decision.
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    Remember that the computer AI does not have REAL intelligence. That does not happen with an AI until Soong makes Lore and Data and possibly whatever models that comes before...like B4.

    You do not need artificial intelligence to make decisions. Decisions trees are the basis of computer programming.
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    If you design a prison system where you could just press the big red button and the door opens...guess what sweet pea, you have a security system from idiocracy.

    That is indeed correct sweep pea. Lucky that's not the case here.
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    I would ask if you think before you post...but your reply gives me a pretty clear idea of the answer to that question. And yes I did watch and read the replies before posting. At least you did that part too.

    Well considering you've made the same error a second time I really think you simply don't understand what the word 'reading' means. It dosn't just mean look at the pretty shape the word makes and guess as to the meaning.
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    And I didn't realize that me critising a show was me being childish. Or are we not allowed to critise a show YOU like at all. Because you know, going nah nah, you can't say bad things about anything I like is SOOO grown up. Grown ups when faced with critism actually proicess said critism instead of plugging their ears and going nuh uh.

    Criticism is fine. Lazy criticism is for children. Those who haven't realised that what they watched in their childhoods is not the pinnacle of drama and that anything that comes out later is subjected to intense scrutiny their past escaped. Grown ups when criticising things should do so objectively and not just lazily repeat the same thing several times hoping that the counter criticism will just go away.

    There is a damn good reason the computer lets Burnham out. There were no crewmembers left around to assist the prisoner. There was an active conflict going on. The brig was one verge of collabs and the prisoner would die. All that is spelt out by the situation happening in the episode. Lazily suggesting Burnham just asked a red button to be let out and was released is a sign of a lack of faculties and not just those relating to criticism.
    and we also know that a few well-chosen words will send that computer into a coma, because apparently paradox correctors are ANOTHER thing that starfleet doesn't have in addition to fuses and seatbelts

    There is also the whole 'Kirk talks a computer to death' thing. Though that's from TOS so must be protected behind a rose filtered diamond wall.​​

    Wow...you are just full of bad ain't ya.

    Decision tree IS AI. It may not be making independant thought, but it is AI. Which is why such a tree if given to a prisoner should NEVER result in drop shields and open the door. NEVER. I mean if you care about security at all anyways. That is just an idiot design. But hey, if you want admit that the feddie bears are morons in canon and idiocracy happened on earth...k. I'll accept that answer too. Honestly barring plot armor, the feddie bears should have been annilated ages ago with such levels of stupid...but hey who needs a story that makes logical sense when we can have deux ex machina instead. You do realize that is bad story telling...right? And no TRIBBLE is not the only trek series guilty of this...they just broken what most series do in 2 or three seasons in one episode. Honestly however, this scene is at least excusable with mustrum's explaination...which is more than I can say for yours. You give another BAD scene as an excuse as to why this one isn't a BAD scene. That's not how this works. Bad is bad is bad. Oh saying that I am childish and don't understand because you disagree with me...yeah...that's how a grown up actually makes an argument. And ignoring rather LARGE swaths of critism and cherry picking thing until the argument made is saying NOTHING of what it orginal said is also how a grown up does arguements. Yeah...sure. Okay now. Have fun in you delusions there kiddo.[/quote]

    Whilst I acknowledge that you referenced the fact that other Trek series did it..... seriously? Data was the biggest DEM ever right from the start.


  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,230 Arc User
    jonsills wrote: »
    Oh, yes, let's make sure that the AI that runs the brig aboard a ship that might see combat is programmed to kill the prisoners in the event of a loss of pressure and loss of all personnel assigned to guard duty. Because of course every offense for which one might get brig time, including oversleeping often enough to annoy the captain, deserves the death penalty.
    Yeah, it's like I said earlier, Feds care more about the health and safety of prisoners than they do about keeping them prisoner. In large part because they have reasons to want to be gentle with prisoners. Especially members of your own crew. Throwing a crew member into the brig is akin to telling them to sit in the corner and think about what they've done. When the punishment is over, they're going to be expected to get back to work.
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  • shadowfang240shadowfang240 Member Posts: 36,138 Arc User
    yeah...mutiny calls for something a little more firm than 'go stand in the corner'​​
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  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,230 Arc User
    yeah...mutiny calls for something a little more firm than 'go stand in the corner'​​
    Yeah, a disciplinary hearing, AKA "Courts Martial". Which may or may not find her in need of further punishment. What? It's not the Terran Empire. Most real world militaries don't execute people on the spot for any offenses. If you die before trial it was due to resisting arrest(maybe sometimes "resisting arrest", but not usually)
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  • shadowfang240shadowfang240 Member Posts: 36,138 Arc User
    they do if mutiny occurs during a time of war - which there technically wasn't at the time considering no formal declaration of war had been made by the federation...on the other hand, klingon declarations of war are usually declared with the first disruptor bolt fired​​
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  • starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,946 Arc User
    edited August 2018
    yeah...mutiny calls for something a little more firm than 'go stand in the corner'​​
    Yeah, a disciplinary hearing, AKA "Courts Martial". Which may or may not find her in need of further punishment. What? It's not the Terran Empire. Most real world militaries don't execute people on the spot for any offenses. If you die before trial it was due to resisting arrest(maybe sometimes "resisting arrest", but not usually)

    There is such a thing as a summary court-martial, what Picard referred to as a "drumhead trial" in the episode of same name, but it's an extremely uncommon procedure nowadays, at least in the U.S. military. (Unlike the rest of the government, the military actually does its best to keep up with advances in technology, in this case increased communication and travel speeds. If somebody's accused of a crime in a war zone, they can and will fly him home for trial.) Outside of extreme circumstances such as Voyager found itself in, the most a CO can do is something called non-judicial punishment (a.k.a. a captain's mast in the Navy), which is very limited in scope: you can dock pay, confine them to quarters or base limits, put them on extra work duties, demote them 1 grade, and of course issue a reprimand (in the vernacular, chewing them out and putting a black mark on their record). But you can't discharge them or throw them in prison, let alone execute them, without convening a full court-martial.
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  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 9,357 Arc User
    starswordc wrote: »
    yeah...mutiny calls for something a little more firm than 'go stand in the corner'​​
    Yeah, a disciplinary hearing, AKA "Courts Martial". Which may or may not find her in need of further punishment. What? It's not the Terran Empire. Most real world militaries don't execute people on the spot for any offenses. If you die before trial it was due to resisting arrest(maybe sometimes "resisting arrest", but not usually)

    There is such a thing as a summary court-martial, what Picard referred to as a "drumhead trial" in the episode of same name, but it's an extremely uncommon procedure nowadays, at least in the U.S. military. (Unlike the rest of the government, the military actually does its best to keep up with advances in technology, in this case increased communication and travel speeds. If somebody's accused of a crime in a war zone, they can and will fly him home for trial.) Outside of extreme circumstances such as Voyager found itself in, the most a CO can do is something called non-judicial punishment (a.k.a. a captain's mast in the Navy), which is very limited in scope: you can dock pay, confine them to quarters or base limits, put them on extra work duties, demote them 1 grade, and of course issue a reprimand (in the vernacular, chewing them out and putting a black mark on their record). But you can't discharge them or throw them in prison, let alone execute them, without convening a full court-martial.
    Umm, actually, in the US military at least, one of the punishments available under Article 15 of the UCMJ, governing non-judicial punishments, is up to 30 days in the stockade/brig. Also, if you're arrested for a violent crime aboard a vessel, you're placed in the brig until such time as you can be transferred to a prison. That's kind of why they have brigs aboard ships. Might just be a cell or two, but there they are.

    And since Burnham was under arrest for suspicion of mutiny (because legally until the court martial is held, she's just a "suspect"), she'd be placed in the brig. And in the event that the brig is becoming inhospitable to continued life, whether due to contamination, flooding, or loss of atmosphere, all prisoners would be removed from their cells before they die, because there's no such sentence as "confinement aboard ship until such time as the environment kills you". Since there are no surviving jailers to release her, the system would be programmed to permit her release as an alternative to her death. To do otherwise really would be either staggeringly stupid or staggeringly cruel.
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  • angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 10,479 Arc User
    edited August 2018
    She would have died since power was failing and the ship was going down. Had the computer kept her it would have been certain death. I know that some consider prisoners unworthy of ethical treatment but Starfleet obviously doesn't. That's the whole issue here.

    (real world political remark removed) - darkbladejk
    Post edited by darkbladejk on
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  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 11,482 Arc User
    edited August 2018
    patrickngo wrote: »
    angrytarg wrote: »
    She would have died since power was failing and the ship was going down. Had the computer kept her it would have been certain death. I know that some consider prisoners unworthy of ethical treatment but Starfleet obviously doesn't. That's the whole issue here.

    that depends strongly on whether your brig is designed to keep prisoners alive or not. If it is, then the direction would NOT be 'easily opened doors', it would be 'emergency bulkhead sealing and internal life support on battery power'.

    the compartments (cells) should be able to seal and sustain until rescue-or until rescue's no longer possible, because it's the simplest way to build it. In a universe that includes both Vulcans, and Orions, (and in which you have to contemplate a brig design that can handle both as known factors) you don't build it as a vulnerable room with a low-power forcefield and easily manipulated computer system.

    Brig design shouldn't include methods to talk the system into assisted suicide.

    in any case, if it's as automatic as you say, Burnham didn't need to say a word, the system would've simply done it on its own. that she had to, indicates that it ISN'T automatic (in which case, they've got a huge hole in their design work, the sort that is a "hole created for plot reasons", aka deus ex machina).

    Sounds about right. Automatically turning the brig into inescapable escape pod when power shuts down or some breach is detected makes far more sense that debating with the computer. There is a reason why they are in the brig so making it easy for Starfleet to reclaim their prisoners as easily as possible is a necessity.
    Post edited by darkbladejk on
  • reyan01reyan01 Member Posts: 14,590 Arc User
    edited August 2018
    patrickngo wrote: »
    angrytarg wrote: »
    She would have died since power was failing and the ship was going down. Had the computer kept her it would have been certain death. I know that some consider prisoners unworthy of ethical treatment but Starfleet obviously doesn't. That's the whole issue here.

    that depends strongly on whether your brig is designed to keep prisoners alive or not. If it is, then the direction would NOT be 'easily opened doors', it would be 'emergency bulkhead sealing and internal life support on battery power'.

    the compartments (cells) should be able to seal and sustain until rescue-or until rescue's no longer possible, because it's the simplest way to build it. In a universe that includes both Vulcans, and Orions, (and in which you have to contemplate a brig design that can handle both as known factors) you don't build it as a vulnerable room with a low-power forcefield and easily manipulated computer system.

    Brig design shouldn't include methods to talk the system into assisted suicide.

    in any case, if it's as automatic as you say, Burnham didn't need to say a word, the system would've simply done it on its own. that she had to, indicates that it ISN'T automatic (in which case, they've got a huge hole in their design work, the sort that is a "hole created for plot reasons", aka deus ex machina).

    I don't think the computer was "easily manipulated" - more that it adapted to the situation and circumstances.
    Post edited by darkbladejk on


  • angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 10,479 Arc User
    edited August 2018
    > @patrickngo said:
    > angrytarg wrote: »
    >
    > She would have died since power was failing and the ship was going down. Had the computer kept her it would have been certain death. I know that some consider prisoners unworthy of ethical treatment but Starfleet obviously doesn't. That's the whole issue here.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > that depends strongly on whether your brig is designed to keep prisoners alive or not. If it is, then the direction would NOT be 'easily opened doors', it would be 'emergency bulkhead sealing and internal life support on battery power'.
    >
    > the compartments (cells) should be able to seal and sustain until rescue-or until rescue's no longer possible, because it's the simplest way to build it. In a universe that includes both Vulcans, and Orions, (and in which you have to contemplate a brig design that can handle both as known factors) you don't build it as a vulnerable room with a low-power forcefield and easily manipulated computer system.
    >
    > Brig design shouldn't include methods to talk the system into assisted suicide.
    >
    > in any case, if it's as automatic as you say, Burnham didn't need to say a word, the system would've simply done it on its own. that she had to, indicates that it ISN'T automatic (in which case, they've got a huge hole in their design work, the sort that is a "hole created for plot reasons", aka deus ex machina).

    The squealing walls were gone (!). There was nothing left to seal, it was a piece of floor and forcefields. The ship went down, power was likely to fail. Of course the scene was engineered to play out this way, it's a tv show after all. But I think it's plausible if your utmost believe happens to not be 'prisoners forfeited their right to live and should go down with the ship and suffocate in their cage'. The void-dive hardly seems like standard procedure and the computer had to calculate a while before concluding her chances of survival are higher this way instead of keeping her locked up.

    I have quite a few problems with DSC. This right here is not one of them, honestly.
    Post edited by darkbladejk on
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    "A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
    "That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
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