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My problems with TRIBBLE

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  • starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,963 Arc User
    edited August 2018
    patrickngo wrote: »
    ryan218 wrote: »
    Maybe, just maybe Starfleet realised how daft it was to give prisoners access to the ship's computer and removed it from later designs?

    lol, no ****.

    No, I'm with @mustrumridcully0 on this one (bottom of page 8 of this thread). IRL if there's a natural disaster of some kind in a prison, like a flood or a hurricane or a major fire, at least in the United States the Department of Corrections in question is required to evacuate the inmates. (Yes, even death row inmates, which you may note, DSC's version of the Federation explicitly outlaws capital punishment per Admiral Cornwell. If it didn't, Burnham might have been sentenced to death for what she did given it was basically a "time of war".) Similarly, with the brig on Shenzhou decompressed and the emergency force fields failing due to battle damage, Burnham's life is in danger. Ergo, her talking the computer into a "humanitarian release" on the grounds that she's going to effing asphyxiate if she isn't set loose is completely plausible.

    If Shenzhou had been intact, it wouldn't have come up.
    "Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
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  • talonxvtalonxv Member Posts: 4,257 Arc User
    > @starswordc said:
    > patrickngo wrote: »
    >
    > ryan218 wrote: »
    >
    > Maybe, just maybe Starfleet realised how daft it was to give prisoners access to the ship's computer and removed it from later designs?
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > lol, no ****.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > No, I'm with @mustrumridcully0 on this one (bottom of page 8 of this thread). IRL if there's a natural disaster of some kind in a prison, like a flood or a hurricane or a major fire, at least in the United States the Department of Corrections in question is required to evacuate the inmates. (Yes, even death row inmates, which you may note, DSC's version of the Federation explicitly outlaws capital punishment per Admiral Cornwell. If it didn't, Burnham might have been sentenced to death for what she did given it was basically a "time of war".) Similarly, with the brig on Shenzhou decompressed and the emergency force fields failing due to battle damage, Burnham's life is in danger. Ergo, her talking the computer into a "humanitarian release" on the grounds that she's going to effing asphyxiate if she isn't set loose is completely plausible.
    >
    > If Shenzhou had been intact, it wouldn't have come up.

    Except the fact the security officer should of been the one to let her out, not the damn computer.
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  • ryan218ryan218 Member Posts: 36,106 Arc User
    talonxv wrote: »
    > @starswordc said:
    > patrickngo wrote: »
    >
    > ryan218 wrote: »
    >
    > Maybe, just maybe Starfleet realised how daft it was to give prisoners access to the ship's computer and removed it from later designs?
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > lol, no ****.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > No, I'm with @mustrumridcully0 on this one (bottom of page 8 of this thread). IRL if there's a natural disaster of some kind in a prison, like a flood or a hurricane or a major fire, at least in the United States the Department of Corrections in question is required to evacuate the inmates. (Yes, even death row inmates, which you may note, DSC's version of the Federation explicitly outlaws capital punishment per Admiral Cornwell. If it didn't, Burnham might have been sentenced to death for what she did given it was basically a "time of war".) Similarly, with the brig on Shenzhou decompressed and the emergency force fields failing due to battle damage, Burnham's life is in danger. Ergo, her talking the computer into a "humanitarian release" on the grounds that she's going to effing asphyxiate if she isn't set loose is completely plausible.
    >
    > If Shenzhou had been intact, it wouldn't have come up.

    Except the fact the security officer should of been the one to let her out, not the damn computer.

    You mean the security officer that was dead? That security officer? Her cell was the only thing in the Brig not enjoying the experience which is explosive decompression. There was no one down there left alive to let her out.
  • starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,963 Arc User
    edited August 2018
    talonxv wrote: »
    Except the fact the security officer should of been the one to let her out, not the damn computer.

    Assumes the security officer is A: still alive and B: not dealing with stuff like the ship being half-destroyed. (On a ship in combat, damage control is everybody's job.)
    "Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
    — Sabaton, "Great War"
    VZ9ASdg.png

    Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
  • khan5000khan5000 Member Posts: 3,007 Arc User
    Wasn’t the Power failing?
    Your pain runs deep.
    Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
  • ryan218ryan218 Member Posts: 36,106 Arc User
    khan5000 wrote: »
    Wasn’t the Power failing?

    It was. In fact, the computer kept the cell sealed until Burnham devised a plan with the computer that allowed her a decent chance at survival, as opposed to just waiting for the forcefield to fail and blow her out into space.
  • angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 11,001 Arc User
    She talked the computer to death since she argued with it that releasing her was the ethical way to go. Which I thought was one of the not-so-terrible things because I love that trope. The following void dive was a bit too much, but the show lives for and from the big pictures.
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  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,963 Arc User
    patrickngo wrote: »
    ryan218 wrote: »
    khan5000 wrote: »
    Wasn’t the Power failing?

    It was. In fact, the computer kept the cell sealed until Burnham devised a plan with the computer that allowed her a decent chance at survival, as opposed to just waiting for the forcefield to fail and blow her out into space.
    khan5000 wrote: »
    Wasn’t the Power failing?

    the whole setup was really badly conceived and executed, the proof being the discussion here, (and here on the forums when it aired originally). They were trying to show off how 'clever' Burnham was, but to make the scene make sense, she didn't have to do anything "Clever", just wait for the systems to follow their programming naturally. (the only way her release makes sense).
    The computer wouldn't have come up with that idea on its own, however. It is not something a programmer would have come up and already programmed in the computer, and Starfleet ship computers never show initiative.
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  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,450 Bug Hunter
    talonxv wrote: »
    I can't off the top of my head but I can think of a VERY bad offender.

    Burnham having access to the ship's computer while in the brig for mutiny.

    Hell in Star Trek V, Scotty had to blow a wall out to get Kirk, Spock and McCoy out of the Enterprise's brig, but for some reason I cannot even begin to fathom Burnham had access and even managed to trick the computer to let her out.
    Do you realize how utterly stupid that is on so many levels? And how many times that could of been utilized previously by officers stuck in that kind of situation but couldn't, but because Burnham...

    Really explain that one to me Lucy.

    When has a main character been in the brig when the ship was under attack? Burnham only got out as the brigs protocols are set up so the prisoners aren't allowed to die.

    As for why prisoners have computer access? Well prisoners now can have computer access. Oddly enough they tend to be blocked from accessing the parts of the network that can shut down the prison but they can use it to browse pre-allowed legal help sites or medical sites.

    Also, it's mentioned in VGR that the computer records the dreams of the crewmembers so it's obvious that every single life form on board is under surveillance. Why wouldn't Burnham be able to talk to the omnipresent computer that is specifically keeping a sensor out for prisoner welfare?

    Also note that there was a guard. He died. So I suppose if there's nobody to let them out the prisoners just go down with the ship? As above, we don't do that now in the civilised world so the Federation wouldn't.


    So Lucy says it's a feature not a bug and to try again with these endless examples of 'McGuffins' you found.​​
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    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
    JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

    #TASforSTO


    '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
    'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
    'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
    '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
    'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
    '...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek

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  • talonxvtalonxv Member Posts: 4,257 Arc User
    > @artan42 said:
    > talonxv wrote: »
    >
    > I can't off the top of my head but I can think of a VERY bad offender.
    >
    > Burnham having access to the ship's computer while in the brig for mutiny.
    >
    > Hell in Star Trek V, Scotty had to blow a wall out to get Kirk, Spock and McCoy out of the Enterprise's brig, but for some reason I cannot even begin to fathom Burnham had access and even managed to trick the computer to let her out.
    > Do you realize how utterly stupid that is on so many levels? And how many times that could of been utilized previously by officers stuck in that kind of situation but couldn't, but because Burnham...
    >
    > Really explain that one to me Lucy.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > When has a main character been in the brig when the ship was under attack? Burnham only got out as the brigs protocols are set up so the prisoners aren't allowed to die.
    >
    > As for why prisoners have computer access? Well prisoners now can have computer access. Oddly enough they tend to be blocked from accessing the parts of the network that can shut down the prison but they can use it to browse pre-allowed legal help sites or medical sites.
    >
    > Also, it's mentioned in VGR that the computer records the dreams of the crewmembers so it's obvious that every single life form on board is under surveillance. Why wouldn't Burnham be able to talk to the omnipresent computer that is specifically keeping a sensor out for prisoner welfare?
    >
    > Also note that there was a guard. He died. So I suppose if there's nobody to let them out the prisoners just go down with the ship? As above, we don't do that now in the civilised world so the Federation wouldn't.
    >
    >
    > So Lucy says it's a feature not a bug and to try again with these endless examples of 'McGuffins' you found.​​

    I can see many of you have never dealt with security so I'm not even going to bother anymore.
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  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,963 Arc User
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    reyan01 wrote: »
    The problem is, you are applying modern-day standards to a ficitonal scenario set hundreds of years into the future.

    So...hundreds of years in the future, we have becomes so stupid that the security procedure is to give prisoners access to prison controls. k. I didn't realize we were watchinh idiocracy...I thought we were watching star trek. But you know what...with TRIBBLE, you maybe right...it is idiocracy after all. Nevermind, carry on.

    It seems to me that you're making a fundamental different assumption: That Burnham, under the given circumstances, should not be allowed to escape her cell, and you're assuming she exploited a security hole.

    Where in reality, she was using a feature.The fact that she engaged the "ethical subroutines" of the computer was clearly an intended part of the design. The fact that there is an ethical subroutine in the first place should already tell you that. Why would the brig computer ethical subroutines, if it is not supposed to make decisions regarding the prisoners like that in a crisis situation?

    It's kinda like a smoke detector installed in a prison cell. If it detects the smoke in the room reaching life-threatening levels, it opens the cell door.
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  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,450 Bug Hunter
    talonxv wrote: »
    I can see many of you have never dealt with security so I'm not even going to bother anymore.

    Well there's not really any need for you to bother any more as it seems every one of your points have been addressed by people including me. Yes, you made silly points, and yes they were nicely answered, but sure, you're winning bud.
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    So...you are saying that prisoners today can have computer access...but not to prison critical systems. Likes say a system that controls the doors of said prisons. You know the system that they gave access to Burnham...because reasons. Seriously, why are people even protecting this level of stupid?!? Have we gotten so dumb that we can't even realize how stupid of an idea it is to give PRISONERS access to systems that CONTROLS THE FRAKING PRISON?!? Like did you even think about this at all before you posted this?!? By your own words, she should NOT have had access to the system she did.

    Seriously, the scene would have worked better if the system protocal automatically just flushed her towards the opened door after doing a quick risk analysis instead of trying to once again show off how fraking awesome Michael effing Burnham is because she can out smart a computer. Bloody moronic in everyway.

    Oh I'm sorry. Did Burnham say' Computer open the door please' and the computer say 'okaydokey mate' and comply? No. Burnham basically used the equivalent of pressing the red panic button used for medical emergencies.
    Did you even think about anything before you posted or just think you were being clever?
    Next time do one of two things (though preferably both) watch the episode you're complaining about or read the post your replying to properly.
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    So...hundreds of years in the future, we have becomes so stupid that the security procedure is to give prisoners access to prison controls. k. I didn't realize we were watchinh idiocracy...I thought we were watching star trek. But you know what...with TRIBBLE, you maybe right...it is idiocracy after all. Nevermind, carry on.

    Never mind the above then. You clearly don't want to. Firstly you imply Star Trek has ever done things sensibly rather than dramatically and secondly you just use another chance to b|tch about DSC. Grow up.
    It seems to me that you're making a fundamental different assumption: That Burnham, under the given circumstances, should not be allowed to escape her cell, and you're assuming she exploited a security hole.

    Where in reality, she was using a feature.The fact that she engaged the "ethical subroutines" of the computer was clearly an intended part of the design. The fact that there is an ethical subroutine in the first place should already tell you that. Why would the brig computer ethical subroutines, if it is not supposed to make decisions regarding the prisoners like that in a crisis situation?

    It's kinda like a smoke detector installed in a prison cell. If it detects the smoke in the room reaching life-threatening levels, it opens the cell door.

    Suuuush! You're doing it wrong. You're reasoning out the correct answer. We're not supposed to do that. It's DSC we're supposed to switch off the reasoning function we're required to use on all other Trek in order to make lazy whining rants about new things.​​
    22762792376_ac7c992b7c_o.png
    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
    JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

    #TASforSTO


    '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
    'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
    'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
    '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
    'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
    '...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek

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  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,231 Arc User
    talonxv wrote: »
    > @azrael605 said:
    > Not to mention it only worked with Sarek and Michael because Sarek left a piece of his Katra in Michael to save her life after her school was bombed.

    I guess it's not driving her insane because it was only a piece? And I guess now it can be just split off as needed? Macguffin anyone?
    It only drove McCoy crazy because he had the whole thing and didn't even know what had happened.
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  • legendarylycan#5411 legendarylycan Member Posts: 37,275 Arc User
    uh, when did that happen? the only time i remember a transporter beam failing in TNG was when one of those supersoldiers some alien government created to a fight a war, then imprisoned when the war was over, punched his way out of the beam and caused a huge explosion​​
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    #LegalizeAwoo

    A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
    An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
    A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
    A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"


    "It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
    "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
    Passion and Serenity are one.
    I gain power by understanding both.
    In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
    I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
    The Force is united within me.
  • legendarylycan#5411 legendarylycan Member Posts: 37,275 Arc User
    we're talking about a people who have forgotten how to build fuses and seatbelts...you expect them to program intelligent security systems?​​
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    #LegalizeAwoo

    A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
    An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
    A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
    A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"


    "It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
    "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
    Passion and Serenity are one.
    I gain power by understanding both.
    In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
    I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
    The Force is united within me.
  • legendarylycan#5411 legendarylycan Member Posts: 37,275 Arc User
    well, it isn't really that hard to believe within star trek's universe given how transporters work....they break you down bit by bit by turning matter to energy, then repeating the process in reverse at the target location - the process doesn't paralyze you and the beam needs to remain stable to complete the process, otherwise the safeties kick in and cancel the process, reconstituting you at the original location - so trying to force yourself out of an annular confinement beam mid-transport would be one solid way of destabilizing it and triggering that failsafe

    i have no explanation for the explosion, however​​
    Like special weapons from other Star Trek games? Wondering if they can be replicated in STO even a little bit? Check this out: https://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1262277/a-mostly-comprehensive-guide-to-star-trek-videogame-special-weapons-and-their-sto-equivalents

    #LegalizeAwoo

    A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
    An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
    A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
    A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"


    "It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
    "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
    Passion and Serenity are one.
    I gain power by understanding both.
    In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
    I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
    The Force is united within me.
  • jcswwjcsww Member Posts: 6,789 Arc User
    Talk about misleading! I come in here expecing answers like, "It burns when I pee!", and , "The itching! THE ITCHING!!!". Very disappointed! :P
  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,963 Arc User
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    artan42 wrote: »
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    So...you are saying that prisoners today can have computer access...but not to prison critical systems. Likes say a system that controls the doors of said prisons. You know the system that they gave access to Burnham...because reasons. Seriously, why are people even protecting this level of stupid?!? Have we gotten so dumb that we can't even realize how stupid of an idea it is to give PRISONERS access to systems that CONTROLS THE FRAKING PRISON?!? Like did you even think about this at all before you posted this?!? By your own words, she should NOT have had access to the system she did.

    Seriously, the scene would have worked better if the system protocal automatically just flushed her towards the opened door after doing a quick risk analysis instead of trying to once again show off how fraking awesome Michael effing Burnham is because she can out smart a computer. Bloody moronic in everyway.

    Oh I'm sorry. Did Burnham say' Computer open the door please' and the computer say 'okaydokey mate' and comply? No. Burnham basically used the equivalent of pressing the red panic button used for medical emergencies.
    Did you even think about anything before you posted or just think you were being clever?
    Next time do one of two things (though preferably both) watch the episode you're complaining about or read the post your replying to properly.
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    So...hundreds of years in the future, we have becomes so stupid that the security procedure is to give prisoners access to prison controls. k. I didn't realize we were watchinh idiocracy...I thought we were watching star trek. But you know what...with TRIBBLE, you maybe right...it is idiocracy after all. Nevermind, carry on.

    Never mind the above then. You clearly don't want to. Firstly you imply Star Trek has ever done things sensibly rather than dramatically and secondly you just use another chance to b|tch about DSC. Grow up.

    ​​

    When you press a big red emergency button in a PRISON, the prison system does not just open your cell door. It summons a PERSON to make the call. Remember that the computer AI does not have REAL intelligence. That does not happen with an AI until Soong makes Lore and Data and possibly whatever models that comes before...like B4. If you design a prison system where you could just press the big red button and the door opens...guess what sweet pea, you have a security system from idiocracy. I would ask if you think before you post...but your reply gives me a pretty clear idea of the answer to that question. And yes I did watch and read the replies before posting. At least you did that part too.

    As for dramatic over sensible...yeah I get that. But there is a differance between doing the long shot choice and having it work...vs just pure stupidity of the situation to begin with. I am okay with drama that is made by doing the hard thing and having it work out...or not. It gives insight into why a character may do what they do. Stories would really be boring is everyone always made the most sensible choice. But in this case, the drama is caused by shear stupidity of either the security procedure...or the computer programmers being completely inept in application of security procedures. And I didn't realize that me critising a show was me being childish. Or are we not allowed to critise a show YOU like at all. Because you know, going nah nah, you can't say bad things about anything I like is SOOO grown up. Grown ups when faced with critism actually proicess said critism instead of plugging their ears and going nuh uh.
    What is "real" intelligence is very debatable, but we know that in a decade, Daystrom will present Starfleet with a computer that can completely automate the operation and decision-making process of a Constitution class starship.

    This seems a relatively harmless precursor technology. It means that red button doesn't need to summon a warden, it simply launches a specialized AI. But it's not smart enough to analyze all possible actions, because there are a ton of possible situations and a ton of possible actions. Instead it's designed to be able to evaluate proposed actions.

    If you consider for example a Chess AI: A basic Chess AI often uses two features. One, it has a "Monte Carlo" simulation where it calculates all possible moves, and a value function, that analyzes the "quality" of a given chess game situation. It works by going through all possible moves, then considering the next possible moves and so on, and at any time it can use the value function to select which moves to analyze more deeply, and which to ignore, or "prune".
    But Chess has a very limited set of possible moves. So it's easy to find the list of possible moves.

    But if you involve a person in a room with a variable set of features (like a force field that is losing power, a fire somewhere, a hull breach somewhere else or whatever), determining all the possible moves is hard. The possibility space grows ridiculously fast, and trying to simulate all the "moves" takes already significant amount of time (finding them already does).
    An AI in such a scenario might need some "hints" on which moves to consider.

    It could very well be that the AI in fact did perform a possible set of moves, and decided to prune the ones that would be similar to Burnham's suggestion. Since many of the possible moves including lowering the force field early end with an even earlier death. The value functions for these paths would probably quickly suggest it's a bad idea, and the idea of sustaining the force field as long as possible yielded the best path. Still ends with death, if no one else intervenes, but at least it's x minutes of survival, vs. 30 seconds or however long Burnham could hope to survive in vacuum.
    So, the AI selects "stay here". But it is open to a "real" intelligence suggesting a course of action, and evaluating the possible outcomes.






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