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Me, helping the Kobali. [GIF]

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  • jrdobbsjr#3264 jrdobbsjr Member Posts: 431 Arc User
    > @markhawkman said:
    > The interesting thing is that the Federation has seen mutagenic viruses enough that they could probably MAKE one from scratch if they wanted. BUT the Federation has decided it's unethical or something and consider it a crime.

    Well yes, because they don't want another Eugenics War. Because of that mess genetic engineering is restricted to correcting genetic defects. As the Kobali virus only works on the dead its legality under Fed law would have to be determined by a court. But im sure that Starfleet would shut down anyone they learn is selling Kobalification on the black market as a means of life extension and would prolly use the laws on genetic engineering to do it. The real reason, however, would be to satisfy the Kobali, a important proxy in the Delta quadrant. They would no doubt be furious and use all the pull they have with Paris to have the offender stopped
  • trennantrennan Member Posts: 2,839 Arc User
    > @markhawkman said:
    > The interesting thing is that the Federation has seen mutagenic viruses enough that they could probably MAKE one from scratch if they wanted. BUT the Federation has decided it's unethical or something and consider it a crime.

    Well yes, because they don't want another Eugenics War. Because of that mess genetic engineering is restricted to correcting genetic defects. As the Kobali virus only works on the dead its legality under Fed law would have to be determined by a court. But im sure that Starfleet would shut down anyone they learn is selling Kobalification on the black market as a means of life extension and would prolly use the laws on genetic engineering to do it. The real reason, however, would be to satisfy the Kobali, a important proxy in the Delta quadrant. They would no doubt be furious and use all the pull they have with Paris to have the offender stopped

    It would do well on the black market, as a life extension. First off, you have to die for it to work. So your life has to end. Second it mutates you in to an ugly TRIBBLE space zombie. Third, as it is, there is no guarantee that this works on things other than vaadwuar and humans.

    Plus, no other species in Delta, not even klingons or romulans, felt the need to defend these necromancers. Which, this kind of thing is illegal in the Federation to begin with. As you said, genetic manipulation is illegal, unless it's for correcting genetic defects. Which raising the dead is not correcting a genetic defect. So, Starfleet, and subsequently the Federation, are breaking their own law by not stopping this.
    Mm5NeXy.gif
  • jrdobbsjr#3264 jrdobbsjr Member Posts: 431 Arc User
    You know there are plenty of people for whom being turned into a butt-ugly space zombie is not too big a price to pay to double their lifespan. It also boosts intelligence, which is another benefit. Yeah, if I were a Ferengi I would be all over this.
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,231 Arc User
    > @markhawkman said:
    > The interesting thing is that the Federation has seen mutagenic viruses enough that they could probably MAKE one from scratch if they wanted. BUT the Federation has decided it's unethical or something and consider it a crime.

    Well yes, because they don't want another Eugenics War. Because of that mess genetic engineering is restricted to correcting genetic defects. As the Kobali virus only works on the dead its legality under Fed law would have to be determined by a court. But im sure that Starfleet would shut down anyone they learn is selling Kobalification on the black market as a means of life extension and would prolly use the laws on genetic engineering to do it. The real reason, however, would be to satisfy the Kobali, a important proxy in the Delta quadrant. They would no doubt be furious and use all the pull they have with Paris to have the offender stopped
    This is a bit of a sticky point simply because it's a matter of sovereignty. Part of the point behind the TNG Prime Directive is that the Federation tries to avoid dictating policy to it's neighbors. thus they consider it morally wrong to do anything unless Federation citizens are affected.
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
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  • trennantrennan Member Posts: 2,839 Arc User
    > @markhawkman said:
    > The interesting thing is that the Federation has seen mutagenic viruses enough that they could probably MAKE one from scratch if they wanted. BUT the Federation has decided it's unethical or something and consider it a crime.

    Well yes, because they don't want another Eugenics War. Because of that mess genetic engineering is restricted to correcting genetic defects. As the Kobali virus only works on the dead its legality under Fed law would have to be determined by a court. But im sure that Starfleet would shut down anyone they learn is selling Kobalification on the black market as a means of life extension and would prolly use the laws on genetic engineering to do it. The real reason, however, would be to satisfy the Kobali, a important proxy in the Delta quadrant. They would no doubt be furious and use all the pull they have with Paris to have the offender stopped
    This is a bit of a sticky point simply because it's a matter of sovereignty. Part of the point behind the TNG Prime Directive is that the Federation tries to avoid dictating policy to it's neighbors. thus they consider it morally wrong to do anything unless Federation citizens are affected.
    > @markhawkman said:
    > The interesting thing is that the Federation has seen mutagenic viruses enough that they could probably MAKE one from scratch if they wanted. BUT the Federation has decided it's unethical or something and consider it a crime.

    Well yes, because they don't want another Eugenics War. Because of that mess genetic engineering is restricted to correcting genetic defects. As the Kobali virus only works on the dead its legality under Fed law would have to be determined by a court. But im sure that Starfleet would shut down anyone they learn is selling Kobalification on the black market as a means of life extension and would prolly use the laws on genetic engineering to do it. The real reason, however, would be to satisfy the Kobali, a important proxy in the Delta quadrant. They would no doubt be furious and use all the pull they have with Paris to have the offender stopped
    This is a bit of a sticky point simply because it's a matter of sovereignty. Part of the point behind the TNG Prime Directive is that the Federation tries to avoid dictating policy to it's neighbors. thus they consider it morally wrong to do anything unless Federation citizens are affected.

    Harry Kim, space zombie. It already has done this very thing. Dust to Dust proves it, and they didn't ask, they just did it. Yet, it was over-looked, i.e. ignored, even though this IS illegal by Federation law.
    Mm5NeXy.gif
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,231 Arc User
    That isn't justification for declaring war on the Kobali... Especially considering it was the former Lyndsey Ballard who turn Kim. AND more so she did it BECAUSE she remembered him.
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
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  • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 9,427 Arc User
    Speaking of, who else named their kobali boff Lyndsay Ballard?
  • trennantrennan Member Posts: 2,839 Arc User
    That isn't justification for declaring war on the Kobali... Especially considering it was the former Lyndsey Ballard who turn Kim. AND more so she did it BECAUSE she remembered him.

    And that's justification enough to turn him in to a Kobali without permission? If she remembers Harry. Then doesn't it stand to reason that Harry could remember everything about his time on Voyager? He was the Operations Officer after all. That's a lot of Starfleet secrets, especially about ship systems and such, that he could remember.

    Which makes the Kobali Second Life, a serious threat in the espionage area. Just bring the dead back to life and pump them for information. But it's fine, as long as they ask first right? No need for the dead to keep those secrets any more.
    Mm5NeXy.gif
  • jrdobbsjr#3264 jrdobbsjr Member Posts: 431 Arc User
    > @trennan said:
    >
    > Harry Kim, space zombie. It already has done this very thing. Dust to Dust proves it, and they didn't ask, they just did it. Yet, it was over-looked, i.e. ignored, even though this IS illegal by Federation law.

    Imagine the fun if Harry makes it back to Federation space and tries to get his identity back. Imagine the spectacle when VADM Janeway is forced to take the stand and admit the truth about Quantum Duplicate Harry and what she did to the "other" Voyager. Patrick and the rest of the Fed hater set would OD on popcorn
  • drakethewhitedrakethewhite Member Posts: 1,240 Arc User
    Cryptic has done a number of truly bad story arcs. The Kobali was one of the worst. Now the writers of Voyager made the mistake first, but I consider a repeated mistake to be more serious than the first occurrence.

    I'm hoping that VIL missions represent a change in direction. The story there I actually liked, and they were the first ones in a long time that didn't suck. Wasn't perfect- they didn't allow us to run Vorta and the Jem Hadar are completely out of character. But still, it's their best work since New Romulus.
  • ashstorm1ashstorm1 Member Posts: 639 Arc User
    Cryptic has done a number of truly bad story arcs. The Kobali was one of the worst. Now the writers of Voyager made the mistake first, but I consider a repeated mistake to be more serious than the first occurrence.

    I'm hoping that VIL missions represent a change in direction. The story there I actually liked, and they were the first ones in a long time that didn't suck. Wasn't perfect- they didn't allow us to run Vorta and the Jem Hadar are completely out of character. But still, it's their best work since New Romulus.

    Personally, i didn't find the Jems to be that out-of-character. Given, it's true that they go from "We must obey the Founders unquestionably" to "Could we Jem'hadar become a free people?" pretty quickly, but then, time compression is a bit of an obligation in any MMO, for the sake of the story. In the end, though, they're sentient beings with a free will, and it's fatal that they'd start reasoning this way at some point, after centuries if not millenias of control (and occasional abuse) by their "gods".
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,231 Arc User
    > @trennan said:
    >
    > Harry Kim, space zombie. It already has done this very thing. Dust to Dust proves it, and they didn't ask, they just did it. Yet, it was over-looked, i.e. ignored, even though this IS illegal by Federation law.

    Imagine the fun if Harry makes it back to Federation space and tries to get his identity back. Imagine the spectacle when VADM Janeway is forced to take the stand and admit the truth about Quantum Duplicate Harry and what she did to the "other" Voyager. Patrick and the rest of the Fed hater set would OD on popcorn
    What makes you think she kept any of it secret?
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
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  • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 9,427 Arc User
    ashstorm1 wrote: »
    Cryptic has done a number of truly bad story arcs. The Kobali was one of the worst. Now the writers of Voyager made the mistake first, but I consider a repeated mistake to be more serious than the first occurrence.

    I'm hoping that VIL missions represent a change in direction. The story there I actually liked, and they were the first ones in a long time that didn't suck. Wasn't perfect- they didn't allow us to run Vorta and the Jem Hadar are completely out of character. But still, it's their best work since New Romulus.

    Personally, i didn't find the Jems to be that out-of-character. Given, it's true that they go from "We must obey the Founders unquestionably" to "Could we Jem'hadar become a free people?" pretty quickly, but then, time compression is a bit of an obligation in any MMO, for the sake of the story. In the end, though, they're sentient beings with a free will, and it's fatal that they'd start reasoning this way at some point, after centuries if not millenias of control (and occasional abuse) by their "gods".
    That's not even new. Kar'ukan & co openly defied direct orders from a Founder, even to the point of attacking her.

    At least as Cryptic has written them, the jem'hadar have always had free will. Their recent character development I would easily ascribe to Odo most likely being less strict in punishing such "heresy" among his troop.
  • jrdobbsjr#3264 jrdobbsjr Member Posts: 431 Arc User
    > @markhawkman said:
    > jrdobbsjr#3264 wrote: »
    >
    > > @trennan said:
    > >
    > > Harry Kim, space zombie. It already has done this very thing. Dust to Dust proves it, and they didn't ask, they just did it. Yet, it was over-looked, i.e. ignored, even though this IS illegal by Federation law.
    >
    > Imagine the fun if Harry makes it back to Federation space and tries to get his identity back. Imagine the spectacle when VADM Janeway is forced to take the stand and admit the truth about Quantum Duplicate Harry and what she did to the "other" Voyager. Patrick and the rest of the Fed hater set would OD on popcorn
    >
    >
    >
    > What makes you think she kept any of it secret?

    So Harry Kim's family knows he died in the Delta Quadrant?
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,231 Arc User
    > @markhawkman said:
    > jrdobbsjr#3264 wrote: »
    >
    > > @trennan said:
    > >
    > > Harry Kim, space zombie. It already has done this very thing. Dust to Dust proves it, and they didn't ask, they just did it. Yet, it was over-looked, i.e. ignored, even though this IS illegal by Federation law.
    >
    > Imagine the fun if Harry makes it back to Federation space and tries to get his identity back. Imagine the spectacle when VADM Janeway is forced to take the stand and admit the truth about Quantum Duplicate Harry and what she did to the "other" Voyager. Patrick and the rest of the Fed hater set would OD on popcorn
    >
    >
    >
    > What makes you think she kept any of it secret?

    So Harry Kim's family knows he died in the Delta Quadrant?
    Actually, the thing with the quantum duplication is that it's impossible to say that either of them is a "fake". It's akin to having a transporter beam get split in half and materialize two people instead of one. Which was the plot of a TNG ep... But the difference is that the two copies materialized where they could interact with each other immediately.

    Also, it's not clear from Deadlock, but an alternative reading(info on which is the original is only found in the script) is that Harry Kim was the ONLY member of the bridge crew to survive in that episode and that everyone else is the "copies". But again, much like W. Thomas Riker, they're functionally the same person as the "original".

    Also, part of the DQ ep in STO has Captain Kim talking to Keten about what happened after Voyager returned home.
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  • arkle#8984 arkle Member Posts: 78 Arc User

    Also, it's not clear from Deadlock, but an alternative reading(info on which is the original is only found in the script) is that Harry Kim was the ONLY member of the bridge crew to survive in that episode and that everyone else is the "copies".

    That's how I took it.
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  • jrdobbsjr#3264 jrdobbsjr Member Posts: 431 Arc User
    > @markhawkman said:
    > jrdobbsjr#3264 wrote: »
    >
    > > @markhawkman said:
    > > jrdobbsjr#3264 wrote: »
    > >
    > > > @trennan said:
    > > >
    > > > Harry Kim, space zombie. It already has done this very thing. Dust to Dust proves it, and they didn't ask, they just did it. Yet, it was over-looked, i.e. ignored, even though this IS illegal by Federation law.
    > >
    > > Imagine the fun if Harry makes it back to Federation space and tries to get his identity back. Imagine the spectacle when VADM Janeway is forced to take the stand and admit the truth about Quantum Duplicate Harry and what she did to the "other" Voyager. Patrick and the rest of the Fed hater set would OD on popcorn
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > What makes you think she kept any of it secret?
    >
    > So Harry Kim's family knows he died in the Delta Quadrant?
    >
    >
    >
    > Actually, the thing with the quantum duplication is that it's impossible to say that either of them is a "fake". It's akin to having a transporter beam get split in half and materialize two people instead of one. Which was the plot of a TNG ep... But the difference is that the two copies materialized where they could interact with each other immediately.
    >
    > Also, it's not clear from Deadlock, but an alternative reading(info on which is the original is only found in the script) is that Harry Kim was the ONLY member of the bridge crew to survive in that episode and that everyone else is the "copies". But again, much like W. Thomas Riker, they're functionally the same person as the "original".
    >
    > Also, part of the DQ ep in STO has Captain Kim talking to Keten about what happened after Voyager returned home.

    In game, you see real Harry die, and Capt Kim tells you unequivocally that he is the quantum duplicate once he learns Harry is not dead (anymore). I doubt quantum duplicate Kim told Harry's family that their son was dead and he was just a copy. I suspect that didn't appear in Janeway's report either.
  • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 9,427 Arc User
    All of the Voyager crew (and the ship itself) are quantum duplicates. None any more "real" or "copy" than the other. That all of the characters had one or the other killed, the other ship destroyed, is just plot convenience. And that two characters had their surviving version from a different "set" of quantum duplicates, than the others...is of no consequence. The only difference between them were their experiences during that one episode.

    Both Harrys are quantum duplicates. Both equally original.
  • jrdobbsjr#3264 jrdobbsjr Member Posts: 431 Arc User
    > @warpangel said:
    > All of the Voyager crew (and the ship itself) are quantum duplicates. None any more "real" or "copy" than the other. That all of the characters had one or the other killed, the other ship destroyed, is just plot convenience. And that two characters had their surviving version from a different "set" of quantum duplicates, than the others...is of no consequence. The only difference between them were their experiences during that one episode.
    >
    > Both Harrys are quantum duplicates. Both equally original.

    Semantics. I'm sure Starleet would have great fun trying to convince a jury in a Civil trial that it doesn't matter that Harry Kim had been dead for the last thirty years because they had provided a "Quantum Duplicate" of equal value.
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,231 Arc User
    > @warpangel said:
    > All of the Voyager crew (and the ship itself) are quantum duplicates. None any more "real" or "copy" than the other. That all of the characters had one or the other killed, the other ship destroyed, is just plot convenience. And that two characters had their surviving version from a different "set" of quantum duplicates, than the others...is of no consequence. The only difference between them were their experiences during that one episode.

    Both Harrys are quantum duplicates. Both equally original.

    Semantics. I'm sure Starleet would have great fun trying to convince a jury in a Civil trial that it doesn't matter that Harry Kim had been dead for the last thirty years because they had provided a "Quantum Duplicate" of equal value.
    Actually, as I said earlier, the quantum duplication process results in two people that can both legitimately claim to be the original. If Harry Kim went home and sat down with his family there would be no way for them to tell which was which without asking. And frankly I don't think they'd CARE.

    In the case of W. Thomas Riker, the difference is that one of them got stranded on a planet for years and the other went on to be the First Officer of the Enterprise.
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  • usskentuckyusskentucky Member Posts: 402 Arc User
    > @azrael605 said:
    > But hey at least none of our ships have gotten duplicated by a Demon Class planet like Voyager.

    Talk about a sweet boss fight. Duplicate your entire build, abilities and all, and duke it out. They should find a way to do that.
  • arkle#8984 arkle Member Posts: 78 Arc User
    azrael605 wrote: »
    But hey at least none of our ships have gotten duplicated by a Demon Class planet like Voyager.

    Hey man, bad as "Demon" was, at least we got "Course: Oblivion" out of it so it wasn't a total wash. ;)
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  • jrdobbsjr#3264 jrdobbsjr Member Posts: 431 Arc User
    > @usskentucky said:
    > > @azrael605 said:
    > > But hey at least none of our ships have gotten duplicated by a Demon Class planet like Voyager.
    >
    > Talk about a sweet boss fight. Duplicate your entire build, abilities and all, and duke it out. They should find a way to do that.

    In Starfleet Commander's campaign you end up fighting your Mirror Universe counterpart. Same ship(s), same setup. Was pretty cool.
  • starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,951 Arc User
    > @azrael605 said:
    > The only possible way to tell if one was original or not would be to compare the quantum signature to that of the universe, however in this case as both ships occupied the same physical space and interacted with things for the general universe as well as sharing a single supply of anti-matter it seems that both had a slight variance from the overall quantum realm.

    And somewhere a physicist is crying because conservation of mass just got shot full of holes. :D
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  • echattyechatty Member Posts: 5,725 Arc User
    edited July 2018
    > @usskentucky said:
    > > @azrael605 said:
    > > But hey at least none of our ships have gotten duplicated by a Demon Class planet like Voyager.
    >
    > Talk about a sweet boss fight. Duplicate your entire build, abilities and all, and duke it out. They should find a way to do that.

    In Starfleet Commander's campaign you end up fighting your Mirror Universe counterpart. Same ship(s), same setup. Was pretty cool.

    This happens in Dragon Age: Origins during the search for the Urn of Sacred Ashes. You and your companions fight your duplicates, only said duplicates sometimes have abilities you do not
    The next challenge is a fight that pits your party against itself. You will need to defeat spectral versions of all current party members to continue. The spirit versions will all have the same level as the Warden, even if the originals are of lower level. They can use any spell or talent that the original characters have, although they will not use spell combinations or ranger summons/pets. Also, they can use talents the originals do not have. In one run through, the Spirit Wynne used Cleansing Aura when the real Wynne did not. If the original characters have any unassigned points, the game will assign those for the spirit doubles.
    Now a LTS and loving it.

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  • theraven2378theraven2378 Member Posts: 5,813 Arc User
    Make peace with the Vaadwuar, give their new leader some reasonable terms and he might agree on them (The recovery of Vaadwuar on Kobali Prime followed by Kobali Prime being put under strict blockade and isolated from the rest of the galaxy and strict economic sanctions imposed on the Kobali. Ie, crash their economy and leave the Kobali to rot. If the Kobali try to break the blockade, shoot them down).

    Harsh measures are the only way to deal with the Kobali, they took bodies without permission and should pay the price and accept the punishment.
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    • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,960 Arc User
      Cryptic has done a number of truly bad story arcs. The Kobali was one of the worst. Now the writers of Voyager made the mistake first, but I consider a repeated mistake to be more serious than the first occurrence.

      I'm hoping that VIL missions represent a change in direction. The story there I actually liked, and they were the first ones in a long time that didn't suck. Wasn't perfect- they didn't allow us to run Vorta and the Jem Hadar are completely out of character. But still, it's their best work since New Romulus.

      I would argue the Kobali arc is one of the best, because people keep discussing it and feel it a moral and ethical challenging topic. The game is usually pretty tame when it comes to such discussions and keeps things simple and uncontroversial.
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