The amount of temporal changes in Enterprise vastly exceeds the amount in First Contact. There was no genetically modified Suliban, Xindi attack, or alien N A Z Is in the original timeline. Only one episode of Enterprise was part of the Enterprise-D holodeck and it had to be the worst Star Trek series finale ever besides the fact that it had nothing to do with events caused by some temporal change. With the amount of time travel in Star Trek, the timeline of the first few episodes of TOS is not the same timeline as the one in Nemesis. So with the amount of changes to the timeline caused by First Contact and Enterprise, then there is no possibility of the events of TOS, TNG, DS9, and Voyager occurring as we remember them. Therefore, it makes more sense to consider Discovery as a sequel to Enterprise and not a prequel to TOS.
The point of seeing Enterprise on the Enterprise-D isn't Enterprise, it's the Enterprise-D. You see a scene in the episode Pegasus that, beyond some slight aging of the actors (and a Riker lookalike in Ten Forward), is no different than the episode itself. Since the simulation took place after the events of Enterprise, and the Enterprise-D is exactly the same, we can see that they successfully averted substantial changes to the timeline.
As far as Discovery goes, even though its ostensibly the topic, I'd just as soon leave it out of the discussion.
And how do we know that the Enterprise-D is completely the same or that even if there is a Captain Picard, Geordi La Forge, or Data? Or that any of the other significant actions in TNG happened. The USS Defiant in Enterprise looks exactly like a TOS Constitution even though we have seen an updated version of a Constitution class in Discovery. Either the USS Defiant came from the original timeline and the changes from First Contact and Enterprise created a new version of the Constitution class or TV shows like to reuse sets and models when they can get away with it. There is too much temporal changes in First Contact and Enterprise to state that nothing changed in the TOS, TNG, DS9, and Voyager eras. A minute long scene on the Enterprise-D doesn't provide any information about how much the timeline has changed due to the temporal changes from First Contact and Enterprise.
Nor was there any mention on screen of any temporal changes to the timeline from First Contact to Enterprise either. None. Nada. Zip.
It is incredibly shortsighted to think that having alien N A Z Is, genetically engineering the Suliban, and destroying a good portion of Earth to have zero change to the timeline.
Section 31 was created after First Contact. It makes sense that Section 31 is due to Cochrane's party learning that there are extremely dangerous aliens like the Borg out there instead of their first encounter with aliens are 'friendly' Vulcans. Luther Sloan and Lily Sloane have too similar names to not have some connection. I would not be surprised if Lily Sloane worked to create a clandestine organization that eventually became Section 31.
Considering that Discovery doesn't look anything like what we expect 10 years before TOS could be explained by changes to the timeline.
Discovery is a visual reboot but maintains canon events. Its not temporal this or that. You're letting your own specualtions and head canon get in the way of what has been actually stated by the showrunners.
The fact is that if the past is changed, then the present is changed and Enterprise is full of instances where the past is changed. Nothing that a showrunner states will change that fact. Only what is shown on screen matters. It doesn't somehow magically go back to what we saw in TOS except for a visual upgrade. There is no proof that TOS's Starfleet had knowledge of a Spore Drive ever being built or a devastating war with the Klingons that almost destroyed the Federation.
The amount of temporal changes in Enterprise vastly exceeds the amount in First Contact. There was no genetically modified Suliban, Xindi attack, or alien N A Z Is in the original timeline. Only one episode of Enterprise was part of the Enterprise-D holodeck and it had to be the worst Star Trek series finale ever besides the fact that it had nothing to do with events caused by some temporal change. With the amount of time travel in Star Trek, the timeline of the first few episodes of TOS is not the same timeline as the one in Nemesis. So with the amount of changes to the timeline caused by First Contact and Enterprise, then there is no possibility of the events of TOS, TNG, DS9, and Voyager occurring as we remember them. Therefore, it makes more sense to consider Discovery as a sequel to Enterprise and not a prequel to TOS.
The point of seeing Enterprise on the Enterprise-D isn't Enterprise, it's the Enterprise-D. You see a scene in the episode Pegasus that, beyond some slight aging of the actors (and a Riker lookalike in Ten Forward), is no different than the episode itself. Since the simulation took place after the events of Enterprise, and the Enterprise-D is exactly the same, we can see that they successfully averted substantial changes to the timeline.
As far as Discovery goes, even though its ostensibly the topic, I'd just as soon leave it out of the discussion.
And how do we know that the Enterprise-D is completely the same or that even if there is a Captain Picard, Geordi La Forge, or Data? Or that any of the other significant actions in TNG happened. The USS Defiant in Enterprise looks exactly like a TOS Constitution even though we have seen an updated version of a Constitution class in Discovery. Either the USS Defiant came from the original timeline and the changes from First Contact and Enterprise created a new version of the Constitution class or TV shows like to reuse sets and models when they can get away with it. There is too much temporal changes in First Contact and Enterprise to state that nothing changed in the TOS, TNG, DS9, and Voyager eras. A minute long scene on the Enterprise-D doesn't provide any information about how much the timeline has changed due to the temporal changes from First Contact and Enterprise.
Nor was there any mention on screen of any temporal changes to the timeline from First Contact to Enterprise either. None. Nada. Zip.
It is incredibly shortsighted to think that having alien N A Z Is, genetically engineering the Suliban, and destroying a good portion of Earth to have zero change to the timeline.
Section 31 was created after First Contact. It makes sense that Section 31 is due to Cochrane's party learning that there are extremely dangerous aliens like the Borg out there instead of their first encounter with aliens are 'friendly' Vulcans. Luther Sloan and Lily Sloane have too similar names to not have some connection. I would not be surprised if Lily Sloane worked to create a clandestine organization that eventually became Section 31.
Considering that Discovery doesn't look anything like what we expect 10 years before TOS could be explained by changes to the timeline.
Discovery is a visual reboot but maintains canon events. Its not temporal this or that. You're letting your own specualtions and head canon get in the way of what has been actually stated by the showrunners.
The fact is that if the past is changed, then the present is changed and Enterprise is full of instances where the past is changed. Nothing that a showrunner states will change that fact. Only what is shown on screen matters. It doesn't somehow magically go back to what we saw in TOS except for a visual upgrade. There is no proof that TOS's Starfleet had knowledge of a Spore Drive ever being built or a devastating war with the Klingons that almost destroyed the Federation.
You're right. What's shown on screen matters. We were never shown anything saying the spore drive never existed before or there was a prior war with the Klingons. I get it. This is why prequels that change the aethestics and whatnot are not good ideas. However, in this case, what CBS says goes. What you, I, or others say at this point can't change anything and really doesn't matter to TPTB.
The amount of temporal changes in Enterprise vastly exceeds the amount in First Contact. There was no genetically modified Suliban, Xindi attack, or alien N A Z Is in the original timeline. Only one episode of Enterprise was part of the Enterprise-D holodeck and it had to be the worst Star Trek series finale ever besides the fact that it had nothing to do with events caused by some temporal change. With the amount of time travel in Star Trek, the timeline of the first few episodes of TOS is not the same timeline as the one in Nemesis. So with the amount of changes to the timeline caused by First Contact and Enterprise, then there is no possibility of the events of TOS, TNG, DS9, and Voyager occurring as we remember them. Therefore, it makes more sense to consider Discovery as a sequel to Enterprise and not a prequel to TOS.
The point of seeing Enterprise on the Enterprise-D isn't Enterprise, it's the Enterprise-D. You see a scene in the episode Pegasus that, beyond some slight aging of the actors (and a Riker lookalike in Ten Forward), is no different than the episode itself. Since the simulation took place after the events of Enterprise, and the Enterprise-D is exactly the same, we can see that they successfully averted substantial changes to the timeline.
As far as Discovery goes, even though its ostensibly the topic, I'd just as soon leave it out of the discussion.
And how do we know that the Enterprise-D is completely the same or that even if there is a Captain Picard, Geordi La Forge, or Data? Or that any of the other significant actions in TNG happened. The USS Defiant in Enterprise looks exactly like a TOS Constitution even though we have seen an updated version of a Constitution class in Discovery. Either the USS Defiant came from the original timeline and the changes from First Contact and Enterprise created a new version of the Constitution class or TV shows like to reuse sets and models when they can get away with it. There is too much temporal changes in First Contact and Enterprise to state that nothing changed in the TOS, TNG, DS9, and Voyager eras. A minute long scene on the Enterprise-D doesn't provide any information about how much the timeline has changed due to the temporal changes from First Contact and Enterprise.
Nor was there any mention on screen of any temporal changes to the timeline from First Contact to Enterprise either. None. Nada. Zip.
It is incredibly shortsighted to think that having alien N A Z Is, genetically engineering the Suliban, and destroying a good portion of Earth to have zero change to the timeline.
Section 31 was created after First Contact. It makes sense that Section 31 is due to Cochrane's party learning that there are extremely dangerous aliens like the Borg out there instead of their first encounter with aliens are 'friendly' Vulcans. Luther Sloan and Lily Sloane have too similar names to not have some connection. I would not be surprised if Lily Sloane worked to create a clandestine organization that eventually became Section 31.
Considering that Discovery doesn't look anything like what we expect 10 years before TOS could be explained by changes to the timeline.
Discovery is a visual reboot but maintains canon events. Its not temporal this or that. You're letting your own specualtions and head canon get in the way of what has been actually stated by the showrunners.
The fact is that if the past is changed, then the present is changed and Enterprise is full of instances where the past is changed. Nothing that a showrunner states will change that fact. Only what is shown on screen matters. It doesn't somehow magically go back to what we saw in TOS except for a visual upgrade. There is no proof that TOS's Starfleet had knowledge of a Spore Drive ever being built or a devastating war with the Klingons that almost destroyed the Federation.
You're right. What's shown on screen matters. We were never shown anything saying the spore drive never existed before or there was a prior war with the Klingons. I get it. This is why prequels that change the aethestics and whatnot are not good ideas. However, in this case, what CBS says goes. What you, I, or others say at this point can't change anything and really doesn't matter to TPTB.
My problem with Discovery is that it could easily be set after Nemesis with a few minor changes. Get rid of the name drops and call the Klingons something else and it is a sequel. Discovery is supposed to feel like it is set in the 23rd Century not the late 24th or early 25th Century. Ignore the Temporal Cold War portions of Enterprise and Enterprise is how a prequel is supposed to be done.
...Third problem is the Star Trek fanbase itself. as hard as people panned every sequel, and Enterprise, the fact is that the hardcore fanbase really is willing to buy shoddy goods just for the brand recognition, and that's where the name-drops come in, reinforcing the Brand Recognition on a product that is...well..almost completely not the same product....
Yes, thankfully the fan base includes people who are willing to accept and embrace change, otherwise there would have been no TNG and beyond.
And to be fair there are those that can accept it but still not embrace it.
Hmm - overlooking the real-life reasons for a moment, I hope they give us a good explanation as to why Captain Pike had to take command of the Discovery rather than using his own ship.
Because the Discovery is the super secret black-ops über ship that can do things that nobody remembers afterwards. Despite, you know, the very thing that made the ship so special doesn't work any more. So, yeah.
I have, regarding the trailer, again very little gripe with how it looks. But I don't understand why we now essentially make this all about Spock when we, well, probably don't get to even see him. It's like watching Agents of SHIELD, with the constant referencing of the famous Marvel heroes and major events from the movies, yet they are never allowed or able to actually show anything. I fear that once again, Discovery will fail to stand on it's own and just will be an effect driven rollercoaster ride with name-dropping left and right.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Hmm - overlooking the real-life reasons for a moment, I hope they give us a good explanation as to why Captain Pike had to take command of the Discovery rather than using his own ship.
Spore Drive I'd imagine.
Thoughts on the trailer...
They seem to be using the warp effect introduced in the KT films. That's good, I dislike the wobble effect from DSC S1 and if we get some shots similar to the effects from BEY than that'd be fantastic. Hell anything that focuses on models in space is good and not the stupid close ups or really long shots that meant you couldn't see a bloody thing from 09, ID, and DSC S1.
Nice EV suits, shows that the thing from S1 was a sort of thruster suit not a regular EV suit.
STO Iconian?
Shades of V'Ger. Oh gods, don't remind me of TMP, please.
There's a red shirt that beams aboard with Pike wearing a skirted uniform I'd hoped that would have been retconed out (but then again JJ actually doubled down on the idea with his idiotic dresses with no sleeves to put rank on in 09 and ID) ENT and DSCS1 seemed to be heading towards to unisex future that TOS was a step backwards from. Shame.
Pike is perfect. Mount (2256) is an inhumanly (hehe) perfect merger of Jeffrey Hunter, Sean Kenney, and Bruce Greenwood. He does look 2 years older than Hunter did as well as two years younger than Greenwood which is correct for the timeframe.
How the hell they mucked it up with Sarek I don't know. It's like they picked somebody (James Frain) who's only qualification was looking not at all like Mark Lenard, Ben Cross, or even Jonathan Simpson.
Those DSC uniforms look so much better in different colours. And very like the uniforms from BEY (though almost a decade to early and in a completely different timeline).
He wants Discovery for the spore drive I'm guessing.
Aren't sections numbered not lettered? Section 31.
A model zoom!! Yey!!
Iconian gateways?
Sodding pop music. Did you learn nothing from TKT? Rock or nothing.
Black Driver gets a line, I wonder if she'll get a name to go with it?
Ginger Navigator also gets one. I reckon she'll also need a name.
(Yes I realise they both have names but I don't recall either of them being addressed on screen so not canon )
Those workerbees remind me of Spock's ship in 09.
Oh no! Horrible TMP flashbacks again.
I dunno who Unbuttoned Officer is but she's funny. Let's make her the captain.
Fun? I like the sound of that.
Was Pike wearing the DSC S1 uniform there? I hope he doesn't switch to that.
Between this, the NX-01, and the USS Kelvin, does Starfleet not develop the shield until TWoK?
Hit it? I think that should conclusively prove to people that this is indeed not the KT (Iknowit'snotI'vealwayssaidit'snottheUSSKelvinhasn'tbeendestroyedheresoit'snoththeKT).
Was that a rainbow warp effect, please stop with TMP references. Please.
Do aliens no cover their noses when the sneeze? Rude.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Star Trek Discovery Season Two Comic Con Panel | SDCC 2018
Wow. Half the cast seems stoned. My understanding is that the series is being shot in Canada, so some leeway could be given for long plane flights, but actors often have to deal with crazy shooting schedules. This just comes across as low effort.
Man, I can't wait for Here's Mudd In Your Eye and Saru: The Lost Episodes. In a surprise twist, Saru eats his human step-father. With fava beans.
"Everyone is asking, how are we staying true to canon? We know we owe you a lot of answers about how this season connects to canon. You will get those answers this season. Um, guaranteed. You are just not going to get them the way you expect them." What does that mean? If I expect your story to line up with established Trek I am in for disappointment? You are going to squirt out half-backed writing and explain it all away off-screen? Oh wait. You DO explain what that means. It means SPOCK.
"I can tell you, yes, we will be seeing Spock this season", because Star Trek: Discovery has no identity of it's own. "Look, here's Captain Pike and he is the new captain of the Discovery (and it is canon because SPOCK)! Look, his crew is wearing weirdly different uniforms from the Discovery crew, but it is sorta kinda like what they wore in the original series (and we are going waste valuable screen time to explain why)!" At this point, the audience either likes or dislikes your take on Star Trek. Re-inventing yourself at the beginning of Season Two is going to get you in trouble. You are going to alienate your existing audience for the chance to get back the "old guard", who hate your view on Trek. Commit to being a reboot and stop trying to get the "old guard" back. It's not going to happen.
Also, "hack writing alert". They describe Stamets' death as "a bump in the road of a love story". What. The. F*ck. You pull out the "death" card in season one, an then hand wave it away with "space magic" (or the power of "g@y love" as the cast puts it) in Season Two. How will the audience ever feel any tension for these two characters if the script writer blatantly resurrects them whenever they are in danger? At this point, I would send Stamets into the warp core to jiggle the whatzits because he cannot die. Hell, have him body-block torpedoes. They will just bring him back.
Later, a fan asks about how the cast deals with "people who can't accept change and complain about the cast". Nice strawman, though what else would you expect from an echo chamber. I don't have an issue with the "changes" or the performances. For most of it's run, Star Trek was not consistent in it's lore nor was it known for consistency in it's acting. The issue is with the story telling and some of the story elements (such as the disappointing Klingons or killing Stamets for no reason).
What a mess. They want to fervently cling to their terrible story telling choices while changing the theme and tone of the show to cater to an audience that does not like them. Well, good luck with Season Two, Star Trek: Discovery. You are going to need it.
Edit: Apparently g@y is a swear word to the forum censors. Good to know.
"Everyone is asking, how are we staying true to canon? We know we owe you a lot of answers about how this season connects to canon. You will get those answers this season. Um, guaranteed. You are just not going to get them the way you expect them." What does that mean?
Well it basically means that the whining fanbois have patronised the writers that much they've started to believe they owe you anything.
If I expect your story to line up with established Trek I am in for disappointment? You are going to squirt out half-backed writing and explain it all away off-screen? Oh wait. You DO explain what that means.
If you expected Star Trek, hell, any long running programme, to line up with its past and not change on the whims of the current producers then you're in for a big shock mate.
"I can tell you, yes, we will be seeing Spock this season", because Star Trek: Discovery has no identity of it's own. "Look, here's Captain Pike and he is the new captain of the Discovery (and it is canon because SPOCK)!
Or perhaps it's identity happens to include Spock. You know, like DS9s identity had that popular character from TNG brought in to prop it up a bit. That Worf guy, you might have heard of him.
Look, his crew is wearing weirdly different uniforms from the Discovery crew, but it is sorta kinda like what they wore in the original series (and we are going waste valuable screen time to explain why)!"
Where does it say they're going to explain the fact that Starfleet occasionally likes to change it's uniforms? And why do you need that explained to you? Did you watch previous series in braille?
At this point, the audience either likes or dislikes your take on Star Trek. Re-inventing yourself at the beginning of Season Two is going to get you in trouble. You are going to alienate your existing audience for the chance to get back the "old guard", who hate your view on Trek. Commit to being a reboot and stop trying to get the "old guard" back. It's not going to happen.
Yeah, sod those guys. All those who kept up with maintaining the TMP style of film rather than giving us TWoK, or giving us seven series of 'Code of Honour' or 'Move along Home' rather than 'BoBW' or 'In the Pale Moonlight'. And especially sod those guys who completely changed track on ENT S4 rather than struggling on with something people didn't like.
Oh, and Star Trek has still never been rebooted, DSC and TKT are, like ENT or TNG before them in the same continuity as every other series.
Also, "hack writing alert". They describe Stamets' death as "a bump in the road of a love story". What. The. F*ck. You pull out the "death" card in season one, an then hand wave it away with "space magic" (or the power of "g@y love" as the cast puts it) in Season Two. How will the audience ever feel any tension for these two characters if the script writer blatantly resurrects them whenever they are in danger? At this point, I would send Stamets into the warp core to jiggle the whatzits because he cannot die. Hell, have him body-block torpedoes. They will just bring him back.
Yeah, I really disliked 'The Search for Spock' as well. Bloody TOS and their damn cop outs to death.
Later, a fan asks about how the cast deals with "people who can't accept change and complain about the cast". Nice strawman, though what else would you expect from an echo chamber. I don't have an issue with the "changes" or the performances. For most of it's run, Star Trek was not consistent in it's lore nor was it known for consistency in it's acting. The issue is with the story telling and some of the story elements (such as the disappointing Klingons or killing Stamets for no reason).
Well your rambling, ranting whine tells a different story.
What a mess. They want to fervently cling to their terrible story telling choices while changing the theme and tone of the show to cater to an audience that does not like them.
Oh, you've seen the writing for series two already? Please tell us more. Not too much, I'd like to avoid spoilers.
Edit: Apparently g@y is a swear word to the forum censors. Good to know.
Well considering the weirdly dismissive usage you wanted to use it for it's not too much of a loss.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
That's a very odd point to pick out of all the rest.
They've always stuck out. Considering most uniformed organisations are moving away from sex segregated uniforms and Starfleet has done away with them in all incarnations except TOS, one instance in the TOS films, and the KT it sticks out like a sore thumb. Especially as The Cage era uniforms also didn't have them and neither did DSC S1or the Kelvin.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
I think it is pointless to try to match Discovery with TOS canon due to how many temporal changes there were in Enterprise and First Contact. There are too many times in Enterprise where Daniels stated that an event didn't happen in his timeline. Killing 7 million people during the Xindi attack would certainly cause a ton of changes to the timeline. Certain characters in previous Star Trek series might not exist due to their ancestor being killed. Certain technologies might not be developed due to their inventor's ancestor being killed and certain technologies might have been developed that didn't exist or existed in a later series.
With the amount of temporal changes in Enterprise, Discovery can be a prequel of TOS or a sequel of Enterprise, but not both.
That's a very odd point to pick out of all the rest.
They've always stuck out. Considering most uniformed organisations are moving away from sex segregated uniforms and Starfleet has done away with them in all incarnations except TOS, one instance in the TOS films, and the KT it sticks out like a sore thumb. Especially as The Cage era uniforms also didn't have them and neither did DSC S1or the Kelvin.
I think it is pointless to try to match Discovery with TOS canon due to how many temporal changes there were in Enterprise and First Contact. There are too many times in Enterprise where Daniels stated that an event didn't happen in his timeline. Killing 7 million people during the Xindi attack would certainly cause a ton of changes to the timeline. Certain characters in previous Star Trek series might not exist due to their ancestor being killed. Certain technologies might not be developed due to their inventor's ancestor being killed and certain technologies might have been developed that didn't exist or existed in a later series.
With the amount of temporal changes in Enterprise, Discovery can be a prequel of TOS or a sequel of Enterprise, but not both.
I love this idea people keep trying to push that there were temporal changes, when Enterprise explicitly showed there weren't, and, in fact, had all of its temporal events make sure the normal timeline happened as it did.
Well... they gotta try and "rectify" the fact nothing in Enterprise is referenced in TOS, even though TOS came out in the 60s and couldn't possibly reference anything in Enterprise.
I think it is pointless to try to match Discovery with TOS canon due to how many temporal changes there were in Enterprise and First Contact. There are too many times in Enterprise where Daniels stated that an event didn't happen in his timeline. Killing 7 million people during the Xindi attack would certainly cause a ton of changes to the timeline. Certain characters in previous Star Trek series might not exist due to their ancestor being killed. Certain technologies might not be developed due to their inventor's ancestor being killed and certain technologies might have been developed that didn't exist or existed in a later series.
With the amount of temporal changes in Enterprise, Discovery can be a prequel of TOS or a sequel of Enterprise, but not both.
I love this idea people keep trying to push that there were temporal changes, when Enterprise explicitly showed there weren't, and, in fact, had all of its temporal events make sure the normal timeline happened as it did.
Any change to the past changes the present or future. To believe that there is no change is denying the ramifications of time travel. The change could have been as simple as someone getting pushed on the street to as complex as a completely new technology like Transparent Aluminum being introduced decades earlier.
There is no way that everything would go back to the original timeline if 7 million people are killed from some temporal change. There is no evidence that there was no impact due to the temporal changes in Enterprise. All we saw of the 24th Century after Enterprise is that awful series finale. So all we know, is that William Riker, Deanna la Troi, Captain Picard, and the Enterprise-D exist after all the temporal changes from Enterprise.
I think it is pointless to try to match Discovery with TOS canon due to how many temporal changes there were in Enterprise and First Contact. There are too many times in Enterprise where Daniels stated that an event didn't happen in his timeline. Killing 7 million people during the Xindi attack would certainly cause a ton of changes to the timeline. Certain characters in previous Star Trek series might not exist due to their ancestor being killed. Certain technologies might not be developed due to their inventor's ancestor being killed and certain technologies might have been developed that didn't exist or existed in a later series.
With the amount of temporal changes in Enterprise, Discovery can be a prequel of TOS or a sequel of Enterprise, but not both.
I love this idea people keep trying to push that there were temporal changes, when Enterprise explicitly showed there weren't, and, in fact, had all of its temporal events make sure the normal timeline happened as it did.
Well... they gotta try and "rectify" the fact nothing in Enterprise is referenced in TOS, even though TOS came out in the 60s and couldn't possibly reference anything in Enterprise.
The difference between Enterprise and Discovery is that Enterprise happened a century before TOS while Discovery only happened 10 years before TOS. How often do people talk about events that happened a century ago compared to 10 years ago?
Comments
The fact is that if the past is changed, then the present is changed and Enterprise is full of instances where the past is changed. Nothing that a showrunner states will change that fact. Only what is shown on screen matters. It doesn't somehow magically go back to what we saw in TOS except for a visual upgrade. There is no proof that TOS's Starfleet had knowledge of a Spore Drive ever being built or a devastating war with the Klingons that almost destroyed the Federation.
You're right. What's shown on screen matters. We were never shown anything saying the spore drive never existed before or there was a prior war with the Klingons. I get it. This is why prequels that change the aethestics and whatnot are not good ideas. However, in this case, what CBS says goes. What you, I, or others say at this point can't change anything and really doesn't matter to TPTB.
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My problem with Discovery is that it could easily be set after Nemesis with a few minor changes. Get rid of the name drops and call the Klingons something else and it is a sequel. Discovery is supposed to feel like it is set in the 23rd Century not the late 24th or early 25th Century. Ignore the Temporal Cold War portions of Enterprise and Enterprise is how a prequel is supposed to be done.
And to be fair there are those that can accept it but still not embrace it.
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Because the Discovery is the super secret black-ops über ship that can do things that nobody remembers afterwards. Despite, you know, the very thing that made the ship so special doesn't work any more. So, yeah.
I have, regarding the trailer, again very little gripe with how it looks. But I don't understand why we now essentially make this all about Spock when we, well, probably don't get to even see him. It's like watching Agents of SHIELD, with the constant referencing of the famous Marvel heroes and major events from the movies, yet they are never allowed or able to actually show anything. I fear that once again, Discovery will fail to stand on it's own and just will be an effect driven rollercoaster ride with name-dropping left and right.
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http://www.treknews.net/2018/07/20/seven-star-trek-discovery-season-2-photos/
http://www.treknews.net/2018/07/20/star-trek-discovery-sdcc-2018-exhibit-photos/
http://trekcore.com/blog/2018/07/rebecca-romjin-is-star-trek-discoverys-number-one/
SDCC18: ‘Star Trek: Discovery’ Mini-Episodes, Spock and Number One Confirmed for Season 2
https://trekmovie.com/2018/07/20/breaking-star-trek-discovery-mini-episodes-and-spock-confirmed-for-season-2/
Spore Drive I'd imagine.
Thoughts on the trailer...
- They seem to be using the warp effect introduced in the KT films. That's good, I dislike the wobble effect from DSC S1 and if we get some shots similar to the effects from BEY than that'd be fantastic. Hell anything that focuses on models in space is good and not the stupid close ups or really long shots that meant you couldn't see a bloody thing from 09, ID, and DSC S1.
- Nice EV suits, shows that the thing from S1 was a sort of thruster suit not a regular EV suit.
- STO Iconian?
- Shades of V'Ger. Oh gods, don't remind me of TMP, please.
- There's a red shirt that beams aboard with Pike wearing a skirted uniform
I'd hoped that would have been retconed out (but then again JJ actually doubled down on the idea with his idiotic dresses with no sleeves to put rank on in 09 and ID) ENT and DSCS1 seemed to be heading towards to unisex future that TOS was a step backwards from. Shame.
- Pike is perfect. Mount (2256) is an inhumanly (hehe) perfect merger of Jeffrey Hunter, Sean Kenney, and Bruce Greenwood. He does look 2 years older than Hunter did as well as two years younger than Greenwood which is correct for the timeframe.
- How the hell they mucked it up with Sarek I don't know. It's like they picked somebody (James Frain) who's only qualification was looking not at all like Mark Lenard, Ben Cross, or even Jonathan Simpson.
- Those DSC uniforms look so much better in different colours. And very like the uniforms from BEY (though almost a decade to early and in a completely different timeline).
- He wants Discovery for the spore drive I'm guessing.
- Aren't sections numbered not lettered? Section 31.
- A model zoom!! Yey!!
- Iconian gateways?
- Sodding pop music. Did you learn nothing from TKT? Rock or nothing.
- Black Driver gets a line, I wonder if she'll get a name to go with it?
- Ginger Navigator also gets one. I reckon she'll also need a name.
- (Yes I realise they both have names but I don't recall either of them being addressed on screen so not canon
)
- Those workerbees remind me of Spock's ship in 09.
- Oh no! Horrible TMP flashbacks again.
- I dunno who Unbuttoned Officer is but she's funny. Let's make her the captain.
- Fun? I like the sound of that.
- Was Pike wearing the DSC S1 uniform there? I hope he doesn't switch to that.
- Between this, the NX-01, and the USS Kelvin, does Starfleet not develop the shield until TWoK?
- Hit it? I think that should conclusively prove to people that this is indeed not the KT
(Iknowit'snotI'vealwayssaidit'snottheUSSKelvinhasn'tbeendestroyedheresoit'snoththeKT).
- Was that a rainbow warp effect, please stop with TMP references. Please.
- Do aliens no cover their noses when the sneeze? Rude.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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Man, I can't wait for Here's Mudd In Your Eye and Saru: The Lost Episodes. In a surprise twist, Saru eats his human step-father. With fava beans.
"Everyone is asking, how are we staying true to canon? We know we owe you a lot of answers about how this season connects to canon. You will get those answers this season. Um, guaranteed. You are just not going to get them the way you expect them." What does that mean? If I expect your story to line up with established Trek I am in for disappointment? You are going to squirt out half-backed writing and explain it all away off-screen? Oh wait. You DO explain what that means. It means SPOCK.
"I can tell you, yes, we will be seeing Spock this season", because Star Trek: Discovery has no identity of it's own. "Look, here's Captain Pike and he is the new captain of the Discovery (and it is canon because SPOCK)! Look, his crew is wearing weirdly different uniforms from the Discovery crew, but it is sorta kinda like what they wore in the original series (and we are going waste valuable screen time to explain why)!" At this point, the audience either likes or dislikes your take on Star Trek. Re-inventing yourself at the beginning of Season Two is going to get you in trouble. You are going to alienate your existing audience for the chance to get back the "old guard", who hate your view on Trek. Commit to being a reboot and stop trying to get the "old guard" back. It's not going to happen.
Also, "hack writing alert". They describe Stamets' death as "a bump in the road of a love story". What. The. F*ck. You pull out the "death" card in season one, an then hand wave it away with "space magic" (or the power of "g@y love" as the cast puts it) in Season Two. How will the audience ever feel any tension for these two characters if the script writer blatantly resurrects them whenever they are in danger? At this point, I would send Stamets into the warp core to jiggle the whatzits because he cannot die. Hell, have him body-block torpedoes. They will just bring him back.
Later, a fan asks about how the cast deals with "people who can't accept change and complain about the cast". Nice strawman, though what else would you expect from an echo chamber. I don't have an issue with the "changes" or the performances. For most of it's run, Star Trek was not consistent in it's lore nor was it known for consistency in it's acting. The issue is with the story telling and some of the story elements (such as the disappointing Klingons or killing Stamets for no reason).
What a mess. They want to fervently cling to their terrible story telling choices while changing the theme and tone of the show to cater to an audience that does not like them. Well, good luck with Season Two, Star Trek: Discovery. You are going to need it.
Edit: Apparently g@y is a swear word to the forum censors. Good to know.
https://trekmovie.com/2018/07/22/recasting-spock-pikes-command-style-and-more-season-2-details-from-star-trek-discovery-crew/
Yeah, why the hell should the writers listen to feedback about lack of development for characters and give some? Scre.w those guys.
Well it basically means that the whining fanbois have patronised the writers that much they've started to believe they owe you anything.
If you expected Star Trek, hell, any long running programme, to line up with its past and not change on the whims of the current producers then you're in for a big shock mate.
Or perhaps it's identity happens to include Spock. You know, like DS9s identity had that popular character from TNG brought in to prop it up a bit. That Worf guy, you might have heard of him.
Where does it say they're going to explain the fact that Starfleet occasionally likes to change it's uniforms? And why do you need that explained to you? Did you watch previous series in braille?
Yeah, sod those guys. All those who kept up with maintaining the TMP style of film rather than giving us TWoK, or giving us seven series of 'Code of Honour' or 'Move along Home' rather than 'BoBW' or 'In the Pale Moonlight'. And especially sod those guys who completely changed track on ENT S4 rather than struggling on with something people didn't like.
Oh, and Star Trek has still never been rebooted, DSC and TKT are, like ENT or TNG before them in the same continuity as every other series.
Yeah, I really disliked 'The Search for Spock' as well. Bloody TOS and their damn cop outs to death.
Well your rambling, ranting whine tells a different story.
Oh, you've seen the writing for series two already? Please tell us more. Not too much, I'd like to avoid spoilers.
Aww, that's sweet.
Well considering the weirdly dismissive usage you wanted to use it for it's not too much of a loss.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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That's a very odd point to pick out of all the rest.
They've always stuck out. Considering most uniformed organisations are moving away from sex segregated uniforms and Starfleet has done away with them in all incarnations except TOS, one instance in the TOS films, and the KT it sticks out like a sore thumb. Especially as The Cage era uniforms also didn't have them and neither did DSC S1or the Kelvin.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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With the amount of temporal changes in Enterprise, Discovery can be a prequel of TOS or a sequel of Enterprise, but not both.
*cough*Skant*cough*
Well... they gotta try and "rectify" the fact nothing in Enterprise is referenced in TOS, even though TOS came out in the 60s and couldn't possibly reference anything in Enterprise.
Any change to the past changes the present or future. To believe that there is no change is denying the ramifications of time travel. The change could have been as simple as someone getting pushed on the street to as complex as a completely new technology like Transparent Aluminum being introduced decades earlier.
There is no way that everything would go back to the original timeline if 7 million people are killed from some temporal change. There is no evidence that there was no impact due to the temporal changes in Enterprise. All we saw of the 24th Century after Enterprise is that awful series finale. So all we know, is that William Riker, Deanna la Troi, Captain Picard, and the Enterprise-D exist after all the temporal changes from Enterprise.
The difference between Enterprise and Discovery is that Enterprise happened a century before TOS while Discovery only happened 10 years before TOS. How often do people talk about events that happened a century ago compared to 10 years ago?