Ok, now that I'm on my computer I'm going to try this one last time. I admit it's a bit off topic, but every time i see the title for this thread this immediately pops in my head:
As for Bio-Mimetic gel... The reason it's a controlled substance is not narcotic. Apparently it's restricted due to it's use in gene-resequencing. Apparently bio-engineered plagues, augment engineering, and cloning were possible uses. Ent-D and DS9 kept a supply on board because it had medical uses too.
Bashir's complaint may have had to do with Sisko asking him to hand over the station's entire(or nearly) supply of it. Bashir actually had legitimate uses for it and not having any might make him unable to treat patients. Garak originally tried to get Sisko to trade 200 liters, but Sisko flat told him that 200 was an impossibly large amount.
You're right about the narcotics, I just called them out as a real life example of something tightly regulated, and requiring a very good reason for ordering an unusually large amount.
That's a good observation about Bashir treating patients, I hadn't thought of that.
Don't let them promote you. Don't let them transfer you. Don't let them do anything that takes you off the bridge of that ship, because while you're there... you can make a difference.
-Captain James T. Kirk
Don't let them promote you. Don't let them transfer you. Don't let them do anything that takes you off the bridge of that ship, because while you're there... you can make a difference.
-Captain James T. Kirk
Obviously it was lawful, because he wasn't thrown in prison for the rest of his natural life. So, apparently, was Janeway making an alliance with the Borg against an uncontacted culture (at least until a later episode inadvertently revealed it actually wasn't, and welcome to the idiocy that is Voyager). But my point is that as a fictional situation, what's legal and isn't is up to the writers, and treating Sisko going Captain Ahab in "For the Uniform" as no big deal the way they did is utterly lousy writing. As I explained, there's a whole host of practical, legal, and moral reasons that was a terrible idea (for instance, Starfleet apparently still follows the Geneva Conventions according to DSC, which, the 2155 version apparently bans the use of chemical and biological weapons), so the only reason that didn't send the whole situation to hell is writer fiat.
there is a lot of bad writing over-all, though. Starfleet/Earth Space Probe Agency anyone? bueller?
observing "For the Uniform" within the context of DS9, however, and it's pretty consistent internally with actions prior to, and after. upshot being that (at least in Sisko's wartime) what is 'legal' or 'lawful' is pretty consistent, even when it's morally reprehensible, the presence of "realpolitik" in DS9 is one of the better choices the writers made overall, and the Realpolitik of the situation was that the Cardassians dropped the mess in Sisko's lap pretty consistently, and if he hadn't waged a show of force, it would have weakened Federation security across a broader front.
after all, he stopped at one Colony, the Cardies would not have, if the reprisal had been left in their hands, and they might NOT have given fair warning first to evacuate the civilians. Remember the era in question is Dukat's Cardassia, the planets were in Cardassian territory, and they know as much about trek kemistry as Sisko does, and they don't shy away from atrocities, nor from arming puppet actors. Notably, the Maquis didn't try that trick again, and the Cardassians didn't try emulating it as a regional pacification measure, so on a purely pragmatic level it was successful, as well as being lawful, and if something is stupid but works, it isn't stupid.
You've got your chronology all turned about, Patrick:
"The Way of the Warrior", episode 4x01 (2372). Cardassian military dictatorship that was responsible for previous atrocities is overthrown by popular revolt and replaced by a democratic government. Klingons invade on purported grounds that a popular revolt overthrowing a dictatorship is impossible, cause severe casualties to Cardassian Guard, and attack the Federation when they refuse to join in.
"Return to Grace", episode 4x14. Gul Dukat captures a Klingon bird-of-prey and goes rogue when the incumbent Cardassian Union government refuses to take it as a cue to launch a counteroffensive against the Klingons.
"For the Cause", episode 4x22. Michael Eddington steals shipment of Federation-made industrial replicators intended for humanitarian efforts in Cardassian Union and defects to the Maquis.
"In Purgatory's Shadow"/"By Inferno's Light", episodes 5x14/5x15. Offscreen, Dukat has made a deal with the Dominion to install him as their puppet leader over Cardassia. Now, the Dominion invades Cardassia, puts him in power, and in short order gives the Klingons a boot in their collective moqDu' and wipes out the Maquis.
So, it's a far cry from being "Dukat's Cardassia" when this happens: they're basically Weimar Germany at the height of the Great Depression by that point, reliant on first Federation, then Dominion aid to get back on their feet. And it's equally likely given the timing that the Maquis didn't have time to try that trick again, and as for the Cardassians, they had some other stuff on their minds and, after Dukat was put in power, had considerably quicker means of ethnically cleansing their side of the DMZ. As for Sisko, he stopped at one because Eddington agreed to surrender: he was fully prepared to keep gassing planets until either that happened, or he ran out of targets. One thing that was consistently true about Benjamin Lafayette "You Don't F**k With the" Sisko, he knew not to point a gun at somebody unless he was prepared to pull the trigger.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Deliberately targeting civilians is a war crime, period. 'Eddington did it first' is not a valid excuse.
The Maquis were terrorists, not civilians. No excuse necessary. Maquis calling themselves civilians -- whether there are families or children with them or whatever -- doesn't mean either the Federation or the Cardassian government defined them as civilians. They were rebels. They had no right to rebel against the Federation, no right to live in Cardassian territory without submitting to Cardassian law. They were squatters, thieves, and regularly committed crimes against civilian targets themselves. They are stateless sponsors of violence and robbery. That humanoids are often gendered and reproduce is no excuse, so as to refer to said rebels as "families". The criminal parents of any children killed bear the full responsibility. Sisko rendering their bases uninhabitable, obviously with permission from the Cardassian government, was well within Captain Sisko's authority to end the rebellion. Only Eddington babbled that Sisko was "making it personal" blah blah blah. Sisko was doing his duty efficiently and he successfully stopped the rebellion with minimal loss of life, and this was in large part due to his ability to cut through Eddington's pathetic attempts to emotionally blackmail the Federation, steal land, and jeopardize the peace of two empires under imminent foreign threat.
If anything, the Maquis themselves are aberrations, since it is inconceivable that Roddenberry's enlightened citizenry of the future could be so ignorant of the origins and purpose of legal rights, so selfish, so irrationally ambitious. I would rather suspect an alien plot. Mind control?
Haha... Pat thinks Earth's equatorial region has a "mild" climate.
Well, it's roughly where humans originated, and it's certainly mild compared to much of the terrain directly north and south of it: that's where most of the world's deserts are. Also mild compared to places far north and south of it, but people IRL live there, too.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
> @starswordc said:
> markhawkman wrote: »
>
> Haha... Pat thinks Earth's equatorial region has a "mild" climate.
>
> Well, it's roughly where humans originated, and it's certainly mild compared to much of the terrain directly north and south of it: that's where most of the world's deserts are. Also mild compared to places far north and south of it, but people IRL live there, too.
I live in between the Badlands and the Black Hills in SD. Our summers don't usually go much above 100 F, and our winters don't usually go below much below -10 F (not counting wind chill factor, which is not a scientific measurement anyway). Thats mild to me.
I've seen what it's like close to the equator... a yearly low of 65F sounds GREAT!.... except that's the WINTER and in the summer the low is over 90.
But your point about attempting to create a utopia is correct. Every real-world society that tried communal living has had issues with greed. It always destroyed them in the end.
Comments
You're right about the narcotics, I just called them out as a real life example of something tightly regulated, and requiring a very good reason for ordering an unusually large amount.
That's a good observation about Bashir treating patients, I hadn't thought of that.
Don't let them promote you. Don't let them transfer you. Don't let them do anything that takes you off the bridge of that ship, because while you're there... you can make a difference.
-Captain James T. Kirk
Don't let them promote you. Don't let them transfer you. Don't let them do anything that takes you off the bridge of that ship, because while you're there... you can make a difference.
-Captain James T. Kirk
You've got your chronology all turned about, Patrick:
So, it's a far cry from being "Dukat's Cardassia" when this happens: they're basically Weimar Germany at the height of the Great Depression by that point, reliant on first Federation, then Dominion aid to get back on their feet. And it's equally likely given the timing that the Maquis didn't have time to try that trick again, and as for the Cardassians, they had some other stuff on their minds and, after Dukat was put in power, had considerably quicker means of ethnically cleansing their side of the DMZ. As for Sisko, he stopped at one because Eddington agreed to surrender: he was fully prepared to keep gassing planets until either that happened, or he ran out of targets. One thing that was consistently true about Benjamin Lafayette "You Don't F**k With the" Sisko, he knew not to point a gun at somebody unless he was prepared to pull the trigger.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
The Maquis were terrorists, not civilians. No excuse necessary. Maquis calling themselves civilians -- whether there are families or children with them or whatever -- doesn't mean either the Federation or the Cardassian government defined them as civilians. They were rebels. They had no right to rebel against the Federation, no right to live in Cardassian territory without submitting to Cardassian law. They were squatters, thieves, and regularly committed crimes against civilian targets themselves. They are stateless sponsors of violence and robbery. That humanoids are often gendered and reproduce is no excuse, so as to refer to said rebels as "families". The criminal parents of any children killed bear the full responsibility. Sisko rendering their bases uninhabitable, obviously with permission from the Cardassian government, was well within Captain Sisko's authority to end the rebellion. Only Eddington babbled that Sisko was "making it personal" blah blah blah. Sisko was doing his duty efficiently and he successfully stopped the rebellion with minimal loss of life, and this was in large part due to his ability to cut through Eddington's pathetic attempts to emotionally blackmail the Federation, steal land, and jeopardize the peace of two empires under imminent foreign threat.
If anything, the Maquis themselves are aberrations, since it is inconceivable that Roddenberry's enlightened citizenry of the future could be so ignorant of the origins and purpose of legal rights, so selfish, so irrationally ambitious. I would rather suspect an alien plot. Mind control?
My character Tsin'xing
If that was true... then I live above the arctic circle here in the Pacific Northwest.
Well, it's roughly where humans originated, and it's certainly mild compared to much of the terrain directly north and south of it: that's where most of the world's deserts are. Also mild compared to places far north and south of it, but people IRL live there, too.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
My character Tsin'xing
But your point about attempting to create a utopia is correct. Every real-world society that tried communal living has had issues with greed. It always destroyed them in the end.
My character Tsin'xing