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Removal of Federation Costume options for Jem'Hadar

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  • baddmoonrizinbaddmoonrizin Member Posts: 10,303 Community Moderator
    One could also argue that you don't have to put your Jem'Hadar (or Romulan, now) in command of a Starfleet/KDF ship with a Starfleet/KDF crew at all. Just stick to your Jem'Hadar (Romulan) ships and all Jem'Hadar (Romulan) crew, and then you don't have to worry about Starfleet/KDF uniforms. :mrgreen:
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  • tyler002tyler002 Member Posts: 1,586 Arc User
    edited June 2018
    Honestly, I would prefer that Vanguard Boffs at least had access to the exclusive uniforms of the faction that claimed them.

    Claim them on a Starfleet character and they get Starfleet uniforms, ect.
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  • dragnridrdragnridr Member Posts: 671 Arc User
    One could also argue that you don't have to put your Jem'Hadar (or Romulan, now) in command of a Starfleet/KDF ship with a Starfleet/KDF crew at all. Just stick to your Jem'Hadar (Romulan) ships and all Jem'Hadar (Romulan) crew, and then you don't have to worry about Starfleet/KDF uniforms. :mrgreen:

    You know that's all fine and well, But what about the Intel Uniforms? Or the Dyson Uniforms? Or any other uniform that is NOT tied to a specific faction? I bought those uniforms knowing full well that I could use them on ALL my characters, and now I can't? The description of the uniform either needs to change to match the changes or they need to restore ALL NON-FACTION uniforms so ALL characters no matter the faction can wear them.

    Right now, what Cryptic did was one of the dumbest things since Delta Failing....I mean Delta Rising.
  • baddmoonrizinbaddmoonrizin Member Posts: 10,303 Community Moderator
    dragnridr wrote: »
    One could also argue that you don't have to put your Jem'Hadar (or Romulan, now) in command of a Starfleet/KDF ship with a Starfleet/KDF crew at all. Just stick to your Jem'Hadar (Romulan) ships and all Jem'Hadar (Romulan) crew, and then you don't have to worry about Starfleet/KDF uniforms. :mrgreen:

    You know that's all fine and well, But what about the Intel Uniforms? Or the Dyson Uniforms? Or any other uniform that is NOT tied to a specific faction? I bought those uniforms knowing full well that I could use them on ALL my characters, and now I can't? The description of the uniform either needs to change to match the changes or they need to restore ALL NON-FACTION uniforms so ALL characters no matter the faction can wear them.

    To be honest, I agree that those cross faction uniforms should be available to Jem'Hadar. I don't know if their removal was intended or not, but I've been asking about it. I'm hoping, as many of you, that at least that much gets reversed.
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  • gaevsmangaevsman Member Posts: 3,190 Arc User
    dragnridr wrote: »
    One could also argue that you don't have to put your Jem'Hadar (or Romulan, now) in command of a Starfleet/KDF ship with a Starfleet/KDF crew at all. Just stick to your Jem'Hadar (Romulan) ships and all Jem'Hadar (Romulan) crew, and then you don't have to worry about Starfleet/KDF uniforms. :mrgreen:

    You know that's all fine and well, But what about the Intel Uniforms? Or the Dyson Uniforms? Or any other uniform that is NOT tied to a specific faction? I bought those uniforms knowing full well that I could use them on ALL my characters, and now I can't? The description of the uniform either needs to change to match the changes or they need to restore ALL NON-FACTION uniforms so ALL characters no matter the faction can wear them.

    To be honest, I agree that those cross faction uniforms should be available to Jem'Hadar. I don't know if their removal was intended or not, but I've been asking about it. I'm hoping, as many of you, that at least that much gets reversed.

    I'm pretty sure it's unnintended, i think they will return as soon as they clean up the code (so KDF can get the same)
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  • duncanidaho11duncanidaho11 Member Posts: 7,867 Arc User
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    You're sooooo missing the point, it's scary, really. :) Way I read this thread, is as most ppl saying they understand a Fed-aligned Jem can't wear a Klink uniform. All rather reasonable. But the Intel suit?! I paid for that, with the guarantee that ALL my Captains could use it. And, in fact, my Jem *could* use it -- however briefly. As I paid for a great many other cross-Faction uniforms too. Reneging on that deal is not cool (although I still entertain the hope that this was just the result of a lazy, knee-jerk 'fix').

    *sighs*

    When you notice an inconsistency like this (Jem'Hadar can use the wrist piece and boots, some parts of the unlock package are working) the thing to do is file a bug report. The FED Jem'Hadar now have comparable permissions to KDF. There's still issues with that though (see. intel uniform, Wesley snow suit, and generic kit pieces) and it doesn't look like Cryptic tackled that while disabling unintended FED options.
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  • starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,963 Arc User
    edited June 2018
    vorwoda wrote: »
    ichaerus1 wrote: »
    With that being said, I don't think that the characters should get **** totally out of neutral outfits such as Mercenary, or Intelligence Uniform.

    And that's my issue. Heck, even the KDF can't wear the Mercenary outfits! Really? Orion slavers and rebel Gorn can't wear MERCENARY outfits, they're supposed to wear uniforms?!? I've got a separatist Gorn pirate in a KDF-side pirate Fleet, and my cutthroat crew and I can't wear this supposedly civilian stuff. Well, that's unprofitable for Cryptic. I have no Fedside characters who would touch that stuff, but my Gorn would literally kill to get it. Go on, put it in as a reward for an assassination or dreadnought-jacking - I dare you!

    Then again, we've never gotten the 23c. Gorn outfits we were promised, so he's not holding his breath.
    Hey, I am totally in favor of the merc outfits and other faction-neutral costumes being usable on any toon. Fact is, though, no matter what your headcanon is for your character, according to the game they're regular military, so there's rules to follow.
    vorwoda wrote: »
    Starsword, I salute your father for his service! However, I'm guessing he wasn't holding the rank of Fleet Admiral in his time with the Australian Navy, was he? He probably didn't command his own Australian flagship, am I right? The silly part isn't what our Jemmies and Roms CAN'T have of their allies' stuff, but what they CAN! But until a certain lead retires to a nursing home, thus leaving the less bigoted Devs free to put faction diversity back into the game, we're all stuck with inane and frustrating situations like this. I understand the real life sanctity and importance of uniforms. But the game we have comes down to this:

    Please Mr./Ms. Member of Recently Enemy State, take my fully armed and crewed state-of-the-art flagship. and go do whatever you want with it - hell, you can even rearm it with agonizer phasers and protomatter torpedoes and go commit war atrocities with it - ...but don't wear that shirt! It's not the last part of that sentence that's silly, it's the first part.

    Well, obviously not, because that could never possibly happen outside of catastrophic circumstances* not present anywhere near Australia since World War II: not only was my dad from a different naval service, he was an engineering duty officer at the time, not a surface warfare officer. It goes back to Cryptic's failure from the beginning of the game to comprehend how ranks and career specializations work: admirals in real life don't command ships at all, they command fleets of ships that are commanded by captains (who could be ranked anywhere from lieutenant commander to full-bird captain, but usually not lieutenant except on something like a cutter, and absolutely not rear admiral or above). A foreign flag officer commanding units from another nation? Absolutely, happens all the time between allies. But they're still legally part of their home service, not the services of the other nations in the joint command, and they wear their own uniform.

    As far as the ships, one possible way to interpret it and have it make a lick of sense is that the ships have been sold to allies along the lines of the World War II-era Lend-Lease Act, but really, we all know it's just a cheap way to expand the list of available ships (and ship traits) for Jems and Roms.

    * We're talking, ship under fire, captain and senior officers incapacitated and they need somebody competent to take charge long enough to get them out of there.
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  • talonxvtalonxv Member Posts: 4,257 Arc User
    Cross faction stuff like Intel or Dyson that's stupid to take away. But actual faction uniforms doesn't bother me 1 bit.
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  • jrdobbsjr#3264 jrdobbsjr Member Posts: 431 Arc User
    ichaerus1 wrote: »
    1. No military allows you to wear the uniform of another nation, unless you are sent explicitly for infiltration purposes. Even the full dress of an ally. OPSEC is something that should be taken seriously. The moment you enlist in a military, you're subject to all the regulations and requirements for that military, while you're in there for your term of service.
    2. Do you really think that an ally is granted unfettered access everywhere? That Fleet Admiral Participation Pip is going to just let Hadar'ade the Honored Derp to wander and sniff around that weapon facility, offering a smile and everlasting bottle of root beer? **** no, he/she wouldn't! Despite Cryptic trying to write each faction as part of the Carebear Club, every nation has their secrets, including secrets that they wouldn't want others to know about. Even D'Tan is hiding stuff that he doesn't want to share, with his allies.

    If you want to have a Starfleet'Hadar, roll an alien, have him enlisted in Starfleet. Then you can have your Fed uniform.

    With that being said, I don't think that the characters should get **** totally out of neutral outfits such as Mercenary, or Intelligence Uniform.

    Well, according to canon Starfleet is not a military, and even legendary officers like Scotty consider it a insult to suggest it is. That, of course, is ridiculous but it's canon, set by Gene himself. Like starsword, you want to point to IRL examples, but the problem with that is it underlines how ridiculous the whole situation is. The Romulans and Dominion were some of the most implacable foes the Federation has ever faced, and there is serious bad blood between the Romulans and Klingons due to the behavior of the RSE....yet there the toon is, having access to areas that just a few years ago would be unthinkable, being given command of the most sophisticated ships the faction can produce, leading ops vital to the security of the faction.....and making policy for the faction. It's all in the story line. Except for placing units under the command of a Allied Flag Officer, which is fairly routine, none of this would be allowed by any political entity with any sense. The game is written to make your toon the Kirk(or Kor) of their time, and that doesn't change if you're a Romulan or Jem'Hadar.

    I'm just saying that we may as well take this to it's logical conclusion. The Toon is a Starfleet/KDF officer for all intensive purposes and may as well wear the uniform. It's not like they won't know who you are anyway....your voice, retinal scans and DNA are on file...but they could add a combadge for your real allegiance. If you want realism then we need Cryptic to make full campaigns for Romulan and Jem'Hadar to proceed to endgame with....something that will never happen.
  • starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,963 Arc User
    edited June 2018
    Well, according to canon Starfleet is not a military, and even legendary officers like Scotty consider it a insult to suggest it is. That, of course, is ridiculous but it's canon, set by Gene himself.

    Gene also said that Earth is a nudist colony, but that isn't true in canon either. Whether or not you like the term "military service", the fact is that Starfleet serves all the same functions and has most of the same structures as one. And let's face it: an ordinary starship, even one as small as the Defiant, is a weapon of mass destruction, and they don't give nuclear weapons to the Coast Guard (what Gene insisted on comparing Starfleet to). As far as characters in-universe? I notice it's always conflict-averse Earthborn humans* making that statement; I wonder what an Andorian or Bajoran would think of it if they were asked (or Worf, for that matter).

    * The exception being TOS Kirk, who openly described himself as a soldier.
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  • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 9,427 Arc User
    I agree that each faction should be restricted to they're own uniform.. I have no problem with that. Jem'Hadar shouldn't be in Star Fleet uniforms.. I am cool with that.
    Except no faction is restricted to their own uniform. We can show up for duty dressed in civvies, in bikinis, pink pajamas or the clothes of bazillion current, historical or future societies and organizations we are not members of, even the uniforms of enemy combatants. We can wear anything we want...except when we can't, just because. As I said, perfect example is Starfleet can wear jem'hadar uniform but not the reverse. It's all totally arbitrary nonsense.
  • tyler002tyler002 Member Posts: 1,586 Arc User
    I'd take Roddenberry's words with a grain of salt...
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  • ichaerus1ichaerus1 Member Posts: 986 Arc User
    warpangel wrote: »
    I agree that each faction should be restricted to they're own uniform.. I have no problem with that. Jem'Hadar shouldn't be in Star Fleet uniforms.. I am cool with that.
    Except no faction is restricted to their own uniform. We can show up for duty dressed in civvies, in bikinis, pink pajamas or the clothes of bazillion current, historical or future societies and organizations we are not members of, even the uniforms of enemy combatants. We can wear anything we want...except when we can't, just because. As I said, perfect example is Starfleet can wear jem'hadar uniform but not the reverse. It's all totally arbitrary nonsense.

    Most likely because this is still a roleplaying game, even though a lot of stuff makes it look like the KDF, or Starfleet, or Romulan Republic, or Dominion is growing lax in its standards. Game-mechanics speaking, my fleet is KDF, yes. Storyline-wise, and roleplaying-wise, the fleet is separatist, with its own specific standards for uniform, racial allowances,ship choices, ranking, even language.
    starswordc wrote: »
    Well, according to canon Starfleet is not a military, and even legendary officers like Scotty consider it a insult to suggest it is. That, of course, is ridiculous but it's canon, set by Gene himself.

    Gene also said that Earth is a nudist colony, but that isn't true in canon either. Whether or not you like the term "military service", the fact is that Starfleet serves all the same functions and has most of the same structures as one. And let's face it: an ordinary starship, even one as small as the Defiant, is a weapon of mass destruction, and they don't give nuclear weapons to the Coast Guard (what Gene insisted on comparing Starfleet to). As far as characters in-universe? I notice it's always conflict-averse Earthborn humans* making that statement; I wonder what an Andorian or Bajoran would think of it if they were asked (or Worf, for that matter).

    * The exception being TOS Kirk, who openly described himself as a soldier.

    Don't forget Admiral Marcus as another example. Or Garth. Or David Marcus. I'm sure there are a number of other instances, where it happens. Likewise, other nations/powers in the universe see Starfleet as a military.

    Coast Guard, or "Puddle Pirates" as they are sometimes called by the other military branches, are considered a branch of the military. They have their own branch at MEPS, for starters. Even though some of us that used to be, or are in the military, joke or rib them(and each other), we still know and see them as military.
  • starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,963 Arc User
    ichaerus1 wrote: »
    Don't forget Admiral Marcus as another example. Or Garth. Or David Marcus. I'm sure there are a number of other instances, where it happens. Likewise, other nations/powers in the universe see Starfleet as a military.
    Well, Garth was clearly insane, but I'll give you the Marcuses. However I'll point out, too, that Garth wasn't from Earth. Earthers in Star Trek (aside from Kirk and likely Sisko) seem to think being part of the military is a bad thing, which I blame on World War III/the Eugenics Wars: in their minds, "peacekeepers" and "diplomats" and "explorers" protect and defend, "militaries" attack and conquer.
    ichaerus1 wrote: »
    Coast Guard, or "Puddle Pirates" as they are sometimes called by the other military branches, are considered a branch of the military. They have their own branch at MEPS, for starters. Even though some of us that used to be, or are in the military, joke or rib them(and each other), we still know and see them as military.
    I'm aware of that, but they're not generally an offensive war-fighting branch, is my point: they usually stick pretty close to shore.
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  • baddmoonrizinbaddmoonrizin Member Posts: 10,303 Community Moderator
    starswordc wrote: »
    "militaries" attack and conquer.

    As a military veteran, I take exception to that assertion. I, nor any of my comrades-in-arms, have ever "attacked and conquered" anything, we serve to "protect and defend."

    Anyway, all of this military/not military talk is getting away from the topic of Jem'Hadar costume options being removed.
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  • starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,963 Arc User
    edited June 2018
    > @baddmoonrizin said:
    > As a military veteran, I take exception to that assertion. I, nor any of my comrades-in-arms, have ever "attacked and conquered" anything, we serve to "protect and defend."

    My apologies if I gave offense by wording that statement poorly. I'm not saying that's what militaries do, I'm saying that, in-universe, that's the connotations I believe the words carry for the Earth-human characters. They're desperate to believe that they're better than what humanity used to be, i.e. the people who inflicted the Eugenics Wars and the Post-Atomic Horror on themselves. (See also Arik Soong's point in "Borderlands" about humanity being so scared of the Augments from the Eugenics Wars that they're hampering legitimate medical genetics research.)
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  • baddmoonrizinbaddmoonrizin Member Posts: 10,303 Community Moderator
    My apologies if I misunderstood that you were referring to in-universe. There's been a lot of real-world talk going on in this thread as well, so I read it that way. At any rate, let's get the thread back on topic. :smile:
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  • starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,963 Arc User
    edited June 2018
    > @patrickngo said:
    > for someone with a naval background, you're really...Starswordc, the Coasties have a fairly long history of shooting military actions, including during so-called 'peacetime' (a look at the Drug war, Operation Overlord, etc. is in order here.)

    Details. Obviously my knowledge has its blind spots but I assume the Coasties who were involved in D-Day weren't doing naval bombardment of the Atlantic Wall. I'm talking about what they're primarily thought of as doing, the kinds of things Roddenberry was presumably thinking of when he said Starfleet was "like the Coast Guard" (rather than the Navy or Air Force, or especially the Army and Marines). (And if they were, that just shows how bad the metaphor is, so blame GR, not me.)

    Anyway BMR's right, we're off-topic.
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  • where2r1where2r1 Member Posts: 6,054 Arc User
    You are both correct.
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  • baddmoonrizinbaddmoonrizin Member Posts: 10,303 Community Moderator
    :unamused:
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  • starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,963 Arc User
    > @baddmoonrizin said:
    > :unamused:

    [Mod Hat] Yeah, much as this topic is a personal bugbear for me (and IMO more interesting than the original subject :wink: ), this is a derail. [/Mod Hat]
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  • echattyechatty Member Posts: 5,914 Arc User
    IMO, Jemmies should have access to cross-faction costume pieces. At least that.
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  • duncanidaho11duncanidaho11 Member Posts: 7,867 Arc User
    echatty wrote: »
    IMO, Jemmies should have access to cross-faction costume pieces. At least that.

    They do in large part. Mercinary, formal, and talaxian wear properly unlock for Jem'Hadar. All cross-faction fleet holding uniforms are also available, as well as winter jackets. Swimsuits too.

    Intel is the trouble point.
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  • kodachikunokodachikuno Member Posts: 6,020 Arc User1
    jem'hadar have no 'bare chest' option in the swimsuits catagory we're stuck with the default gray T-shirt

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  • jamieblanchardjamieblanchard Member Posts: 556 Arc User
    I must admit I was rather dismayed to see that access to Fed specific uniforms was blocked for Fed aligned Jem'Hadar. Was really looking forward to putting the TOS shirts on the Jem'Hadar portion of that toon's crew.

    With that, hoping to at least have the faction neutral costumes before too long. Also, does anyone know if Jem toons have access to reputation costumes?
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  • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 9,427 Arc User
    patrickngo wrote: »
    echatty wrote: »
    IMO, Jemmies should have access to cross-faction costume pieces. At least that.

    They do in large part. Mercinary, formal, and talaxian wear properly unlock for Jem'Hadar. All cross-faction fleet holding uniforms are also available, as well as winter jackets. Swimsuits too.

    Intel is the trouble point.

    it becomes more a problem until or unless you retcon the Dominion, because their 'intelligence service' were the Founders and some Vorta and maybe a few other things-but not Jem'Hadar, whose very biology would make them ineffective as intelligence agents or analysts.
    Note intel like all specs is combat based, focusing on stealth and disables. It has nothing to do with spying of any kind.

    Tac and sci jemmies start with intel, so Cryptic obviously thinks it fits them well.
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