I like how this turned into a philosophical discussion. The tzenkethi don't exist, there was no genocide, except in a pixelated world.
I couldn't care less. I play the mission, shoot stuff, get my reward and go away. you people are LOL
See, where there is a story, however fictional, there is always - at least for most people - a lot of thinking going on. Is X realistic? Is Y doing the right thing? Should R and J become a couple? And yes, also philosophical aspects. Actually the very idea of stories, and this includes fictional actions from fictional people, is to make people think. Even if they're only entertainment they won't work otherwise.
So yeah, when they're reading/seeing/playing a story, most people will think about it.
I agree with all you said there, and would also add: this is Star Trek. Granted, it's an incarnation of Trek as an MMORPG shooter where players are rewarded for blowing up people and starships full of people, but it's still (loosely) part of a franchise celebrated for exploring humanist ideas. Other incarnations of Trek dealing with similar themes re: Just War Theory, military chains of command, genocide, the "just following orders" defense, war crimes, etc. would have had something to say about them. Probably literally something to say in the form of a monologue from Kirk, Picard, Sisko, Janeway, or Archer.
Hence the compounded disappointment some of us felt that you not only had to endure this, but you didn't even get the chance to at least click on a faction-appropriate dialogue box saying something about respect for life, the importance of honor, or even the disappointing (for a Romulan, natch) lack of finesse and efficiency. Such would have been a token gesture, but it would at least be grudgingly Trekish. I want to be clear that this isn't really the main disappointment with the mission nor that adding this would salvage it; merely that Trek's traditionally nodded at Big Ideas and saying it's silly for people to treat it thoughtfully goes against one of the biggest appeals of the franchise for a lot of us.
I agree with you about those things. We should've put Neth in the dock after her defection. Admiral Tzen-Terrak can get a phaser to the head.
"Simba, you have forgotten me. You have forgotten who you are … you are my son and the one true king." (Mufasa)
I think this is abit too short, and shallow of a story missions, it wanted to show Neth's actions an mindset as we went thru the missions. Yet they left out one huge thing that honestly would have put even more behind both the zealousness of the Tzenkethi at large, while also showing the actions that had turned Neth's opinion towards defecting from their people.
Like for me I would liked to have seen abit of the mission that showcased the reason they knew about the danger of the eggs posed like a history showcase/report on it given to Neth at the start explaining it abit. Then abit more interaction with their crew showcasing how the ship would I think be divided between the actions being taken turning some of them, while others remained the stalwart zealous Tzenkethi, but also how that might have changed between missions would have been nice.
I quite liked it. It was nice to have a change of perspective from what we usually see, and it's nice to see the developers trying out new concepts for missions. Renegade's Regret opens up many new avenues for telling stories in STO, and I look forwards to seeing them.
To those who are complaining about the lack of motivation for the Tzenkethi, I agree with you. A little more exposition on how exactly the Tzenkethi knew the Drantzuli were such a threat is definitely needed. The lack of motivation for Parr to go along with the Admiral's orders though, is a point I can't agree with. One thing we learn for certain from this mission: in Tzenkethi society you do as your superiors and the Autarch order, or your entire family gets wiped out. North Korean style collective punishment is definitely something wielded by the Tzenkethi as a club to force their citizens and soldiers into line. Therefore, when Parr defected to the Alliance she effectively damned her entire family and extended family to oblivion, because the Admiral will definitely make good on his promise. I'd say that adds a lot more weight to her decision to defect.
I also think that the Admiral himself is going beyond what his stated mission was, or rather, the Autarch is. Yes, the Drantzuli are undoubtedly a threat, but I think the Tzenkethi are using them as an excuse to force their own agenda on the side: pushing non Tzenkethi life forms out of 'their' space and cleansing planets for later colonization. I can easily see us having a full scale confrontation with the Autarch's forces in the coming year, and I hope that Neth Parr becomes the leader of a dissident faction, and perhaps even allows the Tzenkethi to become a playable race of their own. I'd certainly not say no to a doom turtle!
I actually think it was more that the admiral proto-nuked the world over some minor/low traces of possible eggs, but that was easy to explain via it being residue for the eggs after being moved to the moon, which had pushed Neth over the edge. As was stated other worlds could be put on the fact that what the races were doing, and the world being so infested that unless they could move them they were dead anyway. So why risk what would happen when the eggs would hatch as the less advanced races could not move them, had a very low chance of defeating them, with the one race almost seeming to be worshiping them, so nuking them from space just might seem the safest way of dealing with the eggs (the eggs might even hatch early if you mess with them too much like killing too many of them).
Standard auto-fire as the default for all ships, you can't even turn it off for this episode. Might as well go ahead and gives us an A.I. console that places the space part of the game for us, that's all that's missing.
Story wise, meh. "Blah, blah, blah, blah, I was bad. Blah, blah, blah, blah, Now I'm good. Blah, blah, blah, yackity, blah, Let's be friends."
I'd rather go back to the factions being at war with each other.
I normally like the story missions.. it's been a very long time since I didn't like one of the new missions, but I absolutely HATE missions where I have to pilot someone else's ship.
I know that some like the idea of playing from a 'different perspective' and I totally respect that.. but I hate it. I did my one play through, I will never play it again. I could not wait for it to be over. I would have much preferred cut scenes that told the story and then let me play my own character in my own ship.
I hope we don't see any more missions like this. I didn't really even pay attention to the story, I just skipped everything to get it over with as quickly as possible.
Played through again for the spec point and I noticed that instead of thrusting you into the cutscene for the planet getting nuked the camera rotated around and back again after.
Finally found something good about the episode.
Just a shame it doesn't really relate to gameplay.
now on my 3rd run on the same character to try and get credit for finishing this mission. yes 1st time playing this week for this account and 3rd run tonight. finished the mission twice now... no credit registered. had to report to DS9 again and again.
now on my 3rd run on the same character to try and get credit for finishing this mission. yes 1st time playing this week for this account and 3rd run tonight. finished the mission twice now... no credit registered. had to report to DS9 again and again.
This happened to me as well. Played the mission but didn't receive credit for completion first time round. Odd as have never had that happen before.
It would be nice if the space portion was balanced more like the ground is. In other words any ships encountered blow up so quickly which may indeed show how much more advanced you are than some of the races you exterminate but don't really give you a chance to test your ship out.
Tbh if it wasn't for the spec point I'd only be playing this mission once. Not finding it particularly immersive but nice they introduced a cannon/beam hybrid build.
There appears to be strange contrast between the space and ground portions of the game... In the space, you slice through everything like a hot knife through butter... But on the ground, where you're facing savages with rocks and spears, your puny shoulder turret does so little damage, the spray fire targeting is weird, and the only firing mode that seems effective has a painfully long cooldown...
As much as I complain about STO at times, I have to say I really liked this. The things that I think aren't really well done are technical in nature, mostly, as the locked and empty trays, unavailability of BOFFs and abilities are a bit weird. But both the general mechanic as the mission we played were quite good for STO. However, it feels very rushed as others have noted. Almost to the point of seriously asking the dev team if there is so little time to really round out things, why bother at this point. The release schedule really hurts the product you are putting out, with more time we could have learned more, get a better understanding on the depth of the issue. It feels like a typical network TV vs. streaming service battle - the extremely limited scope of a rushed network TV schedule hurts the show ultimately.
Also, a nice way to include some classic Trek philosophy lines. "They all look the same to me - you realize they are probably thinking the same about us?" - although I do have to say that is an awful lot of self-reflection for a faction that is portrayed as narrow minded and in-line as the Voth before.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
It was interesting, although I didn't like the ground abilities very much, they lacked manoeuvrability, I hate standing still, I jump around while shooting my phaser most of the time...
There appears to be strange contrast between the space and ground portions of the game... In the space, you slice through everything like a hot knife through butter... But on the ground, where you're facing savages with rocks and spears, your puny shoulder turret does so little damage, the spray fire targeting is weird, and the only firing mode that seems effective has a painfully long cooldown...
This is normal. Remember, only players can be god mode in both space and ground. Just skip using the shoulder turret. Use 2, 3 and 4. All you'll need.
Honestly, I've played this mission twice. I need to get the space trait at some point. But, all I actually remember of this, other than what ground buttons I need to push. I don't remember anything of it, it was that boring.
The story was pretty good (not the best but good), and I really liked the experimental nature of it, playing as Neth Par. Kinda made me want to play at a Tzenkathi all the time! :-P I also thought it was interesting to get to see Draconis before the protomatter bomb, and its surprisingly combat adept inhabitants. Overall id give it a 7 out of ten. Not the most original or compelling story, but a damn good execution all the same.
I can't check right now, but how does it look? I saw one of the enemies simply using a retextured, slightly pointier Lirpa, is it that one or is it a unique design?
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Oh, it's a Starfleet chevron. Didn't catch that during the play through
It is very much attention to detail and the temporal details that went into Draconis III are nicely done. However, ultimately, it's just a Lirpa
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
No issue with how the gameplay went, not my favourite style of storytelling though. ie taking over another character and playing through a 'flashback' episode, the worst episodes in every TV series that has them.
That said the OP ship was enjoyable just because it made things explode so nice but the ground was a little underwhelming compared to how Tzenkethi seem to fight against the player in other episodes.
For everyone complaining about having to genocide without any choice... you do realise you were playing through a memory? You can't exactly change what has already happened.. your character is just standing there listening to Neth Parr tell this story. Besides it seemed very in character. From what we've learned of the Tzenkethi in previous episodes their society is very rigid and defined by traditional paths, to force someone into betraying a lifestyle like that was bound to take something as drastic as ongoing genocide
I do realize that it was just a memory and I do know that this is a past thing that happened to somebody else, not my character. It is a treasured and tested game design device. And yes, it is in character for the Tzenkethi as presented so far.
However it is still me the player "doing the actions". It is not presented as a cutscene but as actual gameplay. But I am a human not a Tzenkethi. And I don't want to hold the genocide ball. Let's say there was a game which recreated a fictional shooting in the US and it is you as a player who snipes schoolkids and their teachers for the advancement of the story, even if it isn't your heroic character who will instead be hunting the bad guy down afterwards. Would it feel good?
And I realize that this comparison may be overstating it since Star Trek is entirely fictional while school shootings unfortunately are not. But I wanted to highlight the reasoning behind it.
My mother was an epohh and my father smelled of tulaberries
I'd say that they purposely made you 'do the actions' to give you a more intimate understanding of the horrors Neth Parr was forced to partake in, those little snippets of innocents begging for their lives were precisely to shock you the way they shocked Neth Parr. She didn't want to hold the genocide ball either.
In GTA I shot down police officers to get away with a crime. I've played games that made me an assassin and murdered for money. You're not supposed to be afraid of feeling bad about the things you're doing, that's the artistry of it.. the feelings that are invoked are part of the experience, they're meant to be felt, but if you let it stop you from enjoying what they do to the story it's an error on your part, not on the game.
Maybe I just don't understand how you can distance yourself from the character you're playing, enough so that you can feel bad about commiting genocide, but can't distance yourself from the fact that you're playing a game, and not actually doing anything horrible at all.
Comments
I agree with you about those things. We should've put Neth in the dock after her defection. Admiral Tzen-Terrak can get a phaser to the head.
"Simba, you have forgotten me. You have forgotten who you are … you are my son and the one true king." (Mufasa)
Like for me I would liked to have seen abit of the mission that showcased the reason they knew about the danger of the eggs posed like a history showcase/report on it given to Neth at the start explaining it abit. Then abit more interaction with their crew showcasing how the ship would I think be divided between the actions being taken turning some of them, while others remained the stalwart zealous Tzenkethi, but also how that might have changed between missions would have been nice.
To those who are complaining about the lack of motivation for the Tzenkethi, I agree with you. A little more exposition on how exactly the Tzenkethi knew the Drantzuli were such a threat is definitely needed. The lack of motivation for Parr to go along with the Admiral's orders though, is a point I can't agree with. One thing we learn for certain from this mission: in Tzenkethi society you do as your superiors and the Autarch order, or your entire family gets wiped out. North Korean style collective punishment is definitely something wielded by the Tzenkethi as a club to force their citizens and soldiers into line. Therefore, when Parr defected to the Alliance she effectively damned her entire family and extended family to oblivion, because the Admiral will definitely make good on his promise. I'd say that adds a lot more weight to her decision to defect.
I also think that the Admiral himself is going beyond what his stated mission was, or rather, the Autarch is. Yes, the Drantzuli are undoubtedly a threat, but I think the Tzenkethi are using them as an excuse to force their own agenda on the side: pushing non Tzenkethi life forms out of 'their' space and cleansing planets for later colonization. I can easily see us having a full scale confrontation with the Autarch's forces in the coming year, and I hope that Neth Parr becomes the leader of a dissident faction, and perhaps even allows the Tzenkethi to become a playable race of their own. I'd certainly not say no to a doom turtle!
Standard auto-fire as the default for all ships, you can't even turn it off for this episode. Might as well go ahead and gives us an A.I. console that places the space part of the game for us, that's all that's missing.
Story wise, meh. "Blah, blah, blah, blah, I was bad. Blah, blah, blah, blah, Now I'm good. Blah, blah, blah, yackity, blah, Let's be friends."
I'd rather go back to the factions being at war with each other.
I normally like the story missions.. it's been a very long time since I didn't like one of the new missions, but I absolutely HATE missions where I have to pilot someone else's ship.
I know that some like the idea of playing from a 'different perspective' and I totally respect that.. but I hate it. I did my one play through, I will never play it again. I could not wait for it to be over. I would have much preferred cut scenes that told the story and then let me play my own character in my own ship.
I hope we don't see any more missions like this. I didn't really even pay attention to the story, I just skipped everything to get it over with as quickly as possible.
Finally found something good about the episode.
Just a shame it doesn't really relate to gameplay.
It would be nice if the space portion was balanced more like the ground is. In other words any ships encountered blow up so quickly which may indeed show how much more advanced you are than some of the races you exterminate but don't really give you a chance to test your ship out.
Tbh if it wasn't for the spec point I'd only be playing this mission once. Not finding it particularly immersive but nice they introduced a cannon/beam hybrid build.
Also, a nice way to include some classic Trek philosophy lines. "They all look the same to me - you realize they are probably thinking the same about us?" - although I do have to say that is an awful lot of self-reflection for a faction that is portrayed as narrow minded and in-line as the Voth before.
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A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
This is normal. Remember, only players can be god mode in both space and ground. Just skip using the shoulder turret. Use 2, 3 and 4. All you'll need.
Honestly, I've played this mission twice. I need to get the space trait at some point. But, all I actually remember of this, other than what ground buttons I need to push. I don't remember anything of it, it was that boring.
Still building up to facing this episode rerun.
Thrown? It's a melee weapon.
I can't check right now, but how does it look? I saw one of the enemies simply using a retextured, slightly pointier Lirpa, is it that one or is it a unique design?
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It is very much attention to detail and the temporal details that went into Draconis III are nicely done. However, ultimately, it's just a Lirpa
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That said the OP ship was enjoyable just because it made things explode so nice but the ground was a little underwhelming compared to how Tzenkethi seem to fight against the player in other episodes.
For everyone complaining about having to genocide without any choice... you do realise you were playing through a memory? You can't exactly change what has already happened.. your character is just standing there listening to Neth Parr tell this story. Besides it seemed very in character. From what we've learned of the Tzenkethi in previous episodes their society is very rigid and defined by traditional paths, to force someone into betraying a lifestyle like that was bound to take something as drastic as ongoing genocide
However it is still me the player "doing the actions". It is not presented as a cutscene but as actual gameplay. But I am a human not a Tzenkethi. And I don't want to hold the genocide ball. Let's say there was a game which recreated a fictional shooting in the US and it is you as a player who snipes schoolkids and their teachers for the advancement of the story, even if it isn't your heroic character who will instead be hunting the bad guy down afterwards. Would it feel good?
And I realize that this comparison may be overstating it since Star Trek is entirely fictional while school shootings unfortunately are not. But I wanted to highlight the reasoning behind it.
In GTA I shot down police officers to get away with a crime. I've played games that made me an assassin and murdered for money. You're not supposed to be afraid of feeling bad about the things you're doing, that's the artistry of it.. the feelings that are invoked are part of the experience, they're meant to be felt, but if you let it stop you from enjoying what they do to the story it's an error on your part, not on the game.
Maybe I just don't understand how you can distance yourself from the character you're playing, enough so that you can feel bad about commiting genocide, but can't distance yourself from the fact that you're playing a game, and not actually doing anything horrible at all.
Is it just me or does that look like Wil Wheaton with a beard?