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The Borg

rynax1987rynax1987 Member Posts: 3 Arc User
So fellow trek fans out there, I pose a question. I am sure this question has been asked and answered before but I just wanted to get some opinions from other fans of Star Trek.

In the Star Trek movie The Motion Picture, is it possible is some way that Vger or rather the joining of Captain Decker and Vger could have in some way given birth to the Hive Mind of the Borg? Vger, lost in space, somehow comes in contact with a machine planet. Could this planet be the home world of the Borg? Maybe the assistance given to Vger by the machine was not what we thought. Is it possible the machine planet used Vger to take what it needed from organic beings so that it could evolve? So that the Hive Mind could be created?

Also if any of this were possible, Wouldn't this mean that out of all the species in the universe the greatest enemy to the Human race is the Human race? I mean we did create Vger.


Ponder on this my friends and tell me what your thoughts.

feel free to contact me in game as well...

Jisu@rynax
Fleet Admiral - Task Force Chaos
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Comments

  • tyler002tyler002 Member Posts: 1,586 Arc User
    Unless time travel is involved somewhere down the line, it's unlikely. The Borg have been around since at least the time the Iconians were destroyed.
    tumblr_p7auh1JPC61qfr6udo4_500.gif
  • sirmaydaysirmayday Member Posts: 535 Arc User
    I thought a novel from way back when (prior to Enterprise's run, much less STO) stated or implied as much. That said, novels have never really been Star Trek canon to Paramount or CBS, and as noted, that origin now directly conflicts with in-game lore from STO (the most relevant lore from this board) and what's on-screen (since Enterprise featured Borg prior to the events of The Motionless Picture). Time travel could resolve that conflict, but it feels to me like that'd be a convoluted effort to make this particular, non-critical plot point work.

    TL;DR: Almost certainly not.
  • rynax1987rynax1987 Member Posts: 3 Arc User
    I am going to have to read that book, sounds interesting.
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 57,973 Community Moderator
    There are a few origin stories for the Borg. None that are canon though. At least two that I know of involve V'ger. One, as mentioned by azrael, and the other from the game Star Trek Legacy.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anMOQ3vTy9k

    Another origin story actually involves the disappearance of NX-02 Columbia and a mysterious species called the Calier, or something along those lines.
    db80k0m-89201ed8-eadb-45d3-830f-bb2f0d4c0fe7.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcL2ExOGQ4ZWM2LTUyZjQtNDdiMS05YTI1LTVlYmZkYmJkOGM3N1wvZGI4MGswbS04OTIwMWVkOC1lYWRiLTQ1ZDMtODMwZi1iYjJmMGQ0YzBmZTcucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.8G-Pg35Qi8qxiKLjAofaKRH6fmNH3qAAEI628gW0eXc
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
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  • tyler002tyler002 Member Posts: 1,586 Arc User
    rattler2 wrote: »
    Another origin story actually involves the disappearance of NX-02 Columbia and a mysterious species called the Calier, or something along those lines.

    Caeliar.
    tumblr_p7auh1JPC61qfr6udo4_500.gif
  • jordan3550jordan3550 Member Posts: 328 Arc User
    Did the Queen in voyager or possibly first contact explain they where once biological and over 1000 of years they learned to include the synthetics? I may be wrong.
  • tyler002tyler002 Member Posts: 1,586 Arc User
    I think she said they were once like everyone else in First Contact, though nothing about the timeframe.
    tumblr_p7auh1JPC61qfr6udo4_500.gif
  • leemwatsonleemwatson Member Posts: 5,331 Arc User
    edited April 2018
    azrael605 wrote: »
    > @sirmayday said:
    > I thought a novel from way back when (prior to Enterprise's run, much less STO) stated or implied as much. That said, novels have never really been Star Trek canon to Paramount or CBS, and as noted, that origin now directly conflicts with in-game lore from STO (the most relevant lore from this board) and what's on-screen (since Enterprise featured Borg prior to the events of The Motionless Picture). Time travel could resolve that conflict, but it feels to me like that'd be a convoluted effort to make this particular, non-critical plot point work.
    >
    > TL;DR: Almost certainly not.

    The novel The Return, by William Shatner (actually by Judith & Michael Reeve-Stevens) flatly stated the connection, with a post-Generations ressurected Kirk encountering the assimilated Decker on the "Borg home world" and having the Borg view Spock as being one of them due to his mind meld with the Ilia probe much like Hugh saw Picard as Locutus. That is also the basis for the cylindrical Borg Command ship looking like the V'Ger craft here in STO.

    I loved that book.
    rynax1987 wrote: »
    So fellow trek fans out there, I pose a question. I am sure this question has been asked and answered before but I just wanted to get some opinions from other fans of Star Trek.

    In the Star Trek movie The Motion Picture, is it possible is some way that Vger or rather the joining of Captain Decker and Vger could have in some way given birth to the Hive Mind of the Borg? Vger, lost in space, somehow comes in contact with a machine planet. Could this planet be the home world of the Borg? Maybe the assistance given to Vger by the machine was not what we thought. Is it possible the machine planet used Vger to take what it needed from organic beings so that it could evolve? So that the Hive Mind could be created?

    Also if any of this were possible, Wouldn't this mean that out of all the species in the universe the greatest enemy to the Human race is the Human race? I mean we did create Vger.


    Ponder on this my friends and tell me what your thoughts.

    feel free to contact me in game as well...

    Jisu@rynax
    Fleet Admiral - Task Force Chaos

    As other's have said, there are many references in books and games of even earlier 'contact' with the Borg (Not forgetting 'Regeneration' in Enterprise and ST:First Contact). Although some people will flatly deny V'ger was in contact with the Borg, the obvious similarities between the V'ger Craft and the Borg ship in-game is something that cannot be ignored, especially as CBS has alot of say on the ships that can be used in-game. Given what Spock even says about the planet V'ger ended up at, and the 'beings' that enabled it to 'fulfil it's programming' (which itself appeals to Borg vanity of assimilation and 'learn all there is to learn') we can deduce these must have been the Borg of the 20th Century. However Gene passed away without verifying if this was so. Which is what some folk would say is 'proof enough' that it wasn't. Should his son, who is Exec Producer of Discovery, have something to say on the matter, it would be an interesting thing to take note of over CBS/Paramount's view.

    Give the 'limited' knowledge available, and in an annoying pun, of the origin stories we know, the only logical solution to who created the current day Borg, this was in the game ST:Legacy, and that was a Vulcan.....forgotten her name though! If you look at the way Vulcans treated Humanity, their stubborness to accept time-travel to the past, in the early days after First Contact, you get an idea of how and why they struggled so much against the Undine. Both Borg and Vulcans work primarily off logic, hence the hive-mind and mostly predictable status of the Borg. I could get carried away with psychological profiling.....so I'm gonna quit now! :lol:

    "You don't want to patrol!? You don't want to escort!? You don't want to defend the Federation's Starbases!? Then why are you flying my Starships!? If you were a Klingon you'd be killed on the spot, but lucky for you.....you WERE in Starfleet. Let's see how New Zealand Penal Colony suits you." Adm A. Necheyev.
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 57,973 Community Moderator
    leemwatson wrote: »

    As other's have said, there are many references in books and games of even earlier 'contact' with the Borg (Not forgetting 'Regeneration' in Enterprise and ST:First Contact). Although some people will flatly deny V'ger was in contact with the Borg, the obvious similarities between the V'ger Craft and the Borg ship in-game is something that cannot be ignored, especially as CBS has alot of say on the ships that can be used in-game. Given what Spock even says about the planet V'ger ended up at, and the 'beings' that enabled it to 'fulfil it's programming' (which itself appeals to Borg vanity of assimilation and 'learn all there is to learn') we can deduce these must have been the Borg of the 20th Century. However Gene passed away without verifying if this was so. Which is what some folk would say is 'proof enough' that it wasn't. Should his son, who is Exec Producer of Discovery, have something to say on the matter, it would be an interesting thing to take note of over CBS/Paramount's view.

    Give the 'limited' knowledge available, and in an annoying pun, of the origin stories we know, the only logical solution to who created the current day Borg, this was in the game ST:Legacy, and that was a Vulcan.....forgotten her name though! If you look at the way Vulcans treated Humanity, their stubborness to accept time-travel to the past, in the early days after First Contact, you get an idea of how and why they struggled so much against the Undine. Both Borg and Vulcans work primarily off logic, hence the hive-mind and mostly predictable status of the Borg. I could get carried away with psychological profiling.....so I'm gonna quit now! :lol:

    Well... Regeneration was basically the fallout over the Sphere's destruction in the past in First Contact, and basically ensured that contact with the Borg would happen in TNG.

    T'Uerell didn't create the Borg. She discovered them and planned to use them herself. In the video I linked earlier, she said they were created by V'ger, and that she intended to replace the Queen when the time was right. Its implied that Voyager 6 was pulled back in time to the Machine Planet when they say that "space and time are warped". The Living Machines essentially created V'Ger, V'Ger created Drones, Drones eventually created Queens...

    T'Uerell just learned of them through debris found in the 22nd Century and decided to try and use them for her own purposes. And for the most part she succeeded, but was defeated by Captain Picard in the 24th Century.
    db80k0m-89201ed8-eadb-45d3-830f-bb2f0d4c0fe7.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcL2ExOGQ4ZWM2LTUyZjQtNDdiMS05YTI1LTVlYmZkYmJkOGM3N1wvZGI4MGswbS04OTIwMWVkOC1lYWRiLTQ1ZDMtODMwZi1iYjJmMGQ0YzBmZTcucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.8G-Pg35Qi8qxiKLjAofaKRH6fmNH3qAAEI628gW0eXc
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • locutusofcactuslocutusofcactus Member Posts: 651 Arc User
    In the mirror universe, the gorn fought the borg and won but not before a new hybrid race was born; the gorg. :p

    Recovered footage of the gorg war:

    giphy.gif
  • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 9,427 Arc User
    No. The borg have been around much longer than that. But it is possible the borg created V'ger.
  • starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,963 Arc User
    edited April 2018
    While you can certainly make a connection between the "machines" met by V'Ger and the Borg (and several EU writers indeed have as previously stated), there's nothing canon nor to my knowledge was anything intended. The bluegills from "Conspiracy" were actually supposed to have been behind the destroyed colonies in "The Neutral Zone", but the Borg were more budget-friendly and so were written in as a replacement. That this meshed with TMP is a coincidence.

    I went in a completely different direction when I came up with a Borg origin for a fanfic, "A Voice in the Wilderness". http://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/comment/12381983/#Comment_12381983

    Short version, they were an accidental creation of the Preservers. I decided later that the destruction of the Preservers by the Borg prompted both the creation of their genetic program from "The Chase" (to repopulate a galaxy overrun by the Borg, hopefully after their assimilated bodies had all died) and the caching-underground seen in the game's Breen arc.
    "Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
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  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 10,354 Arc User
    Keep in mind that none of the novels are in continuity with "The Canon" - which is a good thing, as some very excellent novels clearly conflict with what we've seen on-screen. Bits and pieces can be used, of course - Diane Duane's Rihannsu novels, for instance, are a clear influence on the Romulans as seen in STO, and some of the minor details from John M. Ford's Klingon novel The Final Reflection have made it into the game as well - but overall, you can't have a coherent timeline that includes Duane's The Wounded Sky, Ford's How Much For Just the Planet?, the entirety of TNG, and Shatner's massive SI fanfics. Too many contradictions.
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  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 11,556 Arc User
    tyler002 wrote: »
    Unless time travel is involved somewhere down the line, it's unlikely. The Borg have been around since at least the time the Iconians were destroyed.

    No canonical evidence that the Borg were around when the Iconians were destroyed. There is the Sleepers mission that states "Species 29 artifacts recovered. Preliminary testing indicates favorable results. Further study authorized, project name "Iconia." Testing for Omega FILE CORRUPTED" However, that is likely evidence that the Borg encountered Iconian relics and gave them the designation Species 29 instead of actually encountering Iconians until recently.

    However, there is evidence that the Borg has been around since the Vaadwaur civilization was destroyed. According to the Vaadwaur, the Borg only assimilated a few systems prior to the 15th Century. So if the Voyager probe or Humans were involved in creating the Borg, then time travel would be involved, but the origin of the Borg likely didn't happen 200,000 years ago.
  • starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,963 Arc User
    > @valoreah wrote:
    > No. The Borg Collective - per Guinan's description in canon ("developing for thousands of centuries") - pre-date the events of TMP.

    And yet they were said by a former drone to have only fragmentary records of events merely 1,000 years ago in "Dragon's Teeth".

    So on the one hand, I'd consider Seven of Nine a more authoritative source than someone who only ran from the Borg. On the other hand, this is after all the same franchise where Weyoun 4 said the Dominion was 2,000 years old and Weyoun 8 said 10,000. :tongue:
    "Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
    — Sabaton, "Great War"
    VZ9ASdg.png

    Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 11,556 Arc User
    starswordc wrote: »
    > @valoreah wrote:
    > No. The Borg Collective - per Guinan's description in canon ("developing for thousands of centuries") - pre-date the events of TMP.

    And yet they were said by a former drone to have only fragmentary records of events merely 1,000 years ago in "Dragon's Teeth".

    So on the one hand, I'd consider Seven of Nine a more authoritative source than someone who only ran from the Borg. On the other hand, this is after all the same franchise where Weyoun 4 said the Dominion was 2,000 years old and Weyoun 8 said 10,000. :tongue:

    The Borg could have been an extremely peaceful race for thousands of years before they started assimilating races 1,000 years ago. So it could be correct that the Borg were developing for thousands of centuries and they only assimilated a few systems a thousand years ago.
  • legendarylycan#5411 legendarylycan Member Posts: 37,276 Arc User
    yeah, i bet their records from 2377 to whenever will be pretty fragmented too...given how their queen was killed, a neurolytic pathogen spread through most of the collective, at least one transwarp hub was confirmed destroyed with the other 5 heavily implied destroyed as well, as was their primary unicomplex - all within the span of 10 or so minutes​​
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  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,231 Arc User
    starswordc wrote: »
    > @valoreah wrote:
    > No. The Borg Collective - per Guinan's description in canon ("developing for thousands of centuries") - pre-date the events of TMP.

    And yet they were said by a former drone to have only fragmentary records of events merely 1,000 years ago in "Dragon's Teeth".

    So on the one hand, I'd consider Seven of Nine a more authoritative source than someone who only ran from the Borg. On the other hand, this is after all the same franchise where Weyoun 4 said the Dominion was 2,000 years old and Weyoun 8 said 10,000. :tongue:
    My head-canon is that the Borg use a collective memory system and not a data archive. Thus the collective only remembers what the individual drones can remember. so each time a drone dies or gets disconnected the Collective forgets things.
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  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 11,556 Arc User
    valoreah wrote: »
    My head-canon is that the Borg use a collective memory system and not a data archive. Thus the collective only remembers what the individual drones can remember. so each time a drone dies or gets disconnected the Collective forgets things.

    Fairly certain it was mentioned on Voyager that the memories from dead drones will remain within the Collective consciousness forever. IIRC it was either "Imperfection" or "Mortal Coil", although I could be wrong on the exact episode.

    Even if Borg memories can be stored forever, they won't be stored forever. Using a virus or destroying the equivalent of their version of hard drives would be effective in destroying memories. If the Borg got into a war with a formidable enemy that destroyed a bunch of Borg ships or some Unimatrix complexes, then Borg memories from before that war would become hazy.
  • lordrezeonlordrezeon Member Posts: 399 Arc User
    Eh, even with machine memory you still have to prioritize what you keep and what you toss. Over a thousand years of data is going to result in a lot of redundant, obsolete, or contradictory information clogging up the system. If you want to keep things running efficiently you are going to need to occasionally purge all the stuff that isn't useful anymore, hence their fragmented data on a thousand years ago.

    After all, a person doesn't take the time to remember everything they have ever had for breakfast over their lifespan. It just isn't relevant enough to be worth keeping track of.


    As far as origin stories, the Destiny novels provide a rather convoluted time travel origin for the Borg. Where a convoluted sequence of events results in a multi-layered set of predestination paradoxes that come together to create and then destroy the Borg. The novel trilogy was decent, but had quite a few flaws.
  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 10,354 Arc User
    The data probably got scrambled sometime after the Third Borg Dynasty...
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