Caardies would be cool since they are in the story line, and they can easily get the choice of join fed or kdf like the romulans do, only problem i see are lock box ships, quite a few.
If they don't make a Cardassian faction then I hope they would at least make Cardassian's an actual playable species on the Federation side, and release their last ship the Hideki in some sort of allied ship bundle.
@patrickngo, @somtaawkhar: Really, I think the two of you are arguing about two entirely different faction systems. Patrick is pushing the form more commonly seen in strategy games where there are significant differences in themes, abilities and playstyle between the factions, for example what you see in StarCraft, Command and Conquer, or Warhammer and 40k. However, I honestly can't think of a single MMORPG that consistently uses this form besides possibly a certain Activision-Blizzard one (and since about Burning Crusade they've started giving the factions ways to get some of the opposite one's previously exclusive stuff, e.g. Horde blood elves can be paladins, a class formerly exclusive to the Alliance). STO also has working against it the fact that it's licensed off of a franchise that puts most of the emphasis and development on a single polity, whereas The MMO That Must Not Be Named is based off a video game series where all sides got roughly equal screen time.
And Cryptic frankly isn't nearly as big a company as Blizzard nor is their game anywhere near as popular, so they really do have to prioritize (especially since they're also simultaneously running Neverwinter and Champions Online). You also have to consider that the game was EXTREMELY rushed in development after they took over the license from Perpetual: they got thirteen months and elected to start from scratch, which, anyone who's played unmodded KOTOR2 could have worked out how that would go.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
They are not going to create a new faction, mini or otherwise and they have already said so in live-streams.
If you watched the interviews, you wouldn't claim that they said the complete opposite of what they actually said. Which is, a Cardasian playable faction is inevitable and will operate like the Romulan faction, and the characters from factions like the Dominion or Cooperative will unlock at level 50 and start out at level 50, making them endgane factions.[/quote]
"Inevitable"? I'd really like a cite about that because it in fact contradicts more or less everything I've heard or seen so far. Not that I am too much in the loop, mind you.
My mother was an epohh and my father smelled of tulaberries
As for the "different vs similar factions" debate: I think both patrick and som are partly right here.
A complete carbon copy of everything would indeed minimize the incentive to play a different faction close to zero.
A completely different playing mechanic and/or story would however, apart from being interesting to run once, mean that one faction will be more favored than the other, and complaints would arise, unless the balance were to be near perfect. That is the reason why many interesting game concepts (one monster vs five heroes) ultimately failed - there was a lack of players on one side, because the other side was just better/more interesting.
The latter needn't be as pronounced in STO, since PvP is only a side issue, so as long as every playstyle can hold its own in PvE it would be okay (just as with the different careers - but again, look at the difference of the player base choosing Tac v Eng v Sci, even though Tac is the one furthest from what ST as a franchise showed). Also other games with huge imbalances work well for players (Blood Bowl), but will always have the one "Min/Max" you best get if you want to be top of the heap.
Also, while I agree that Fed gets a few more ships, and got more than a few more in the past (up to Delta Rising), I find it quite questionable to call every ship bundle "made for Feds only, and then the others get the same". You could easily argue that it would work the other way round "made for KDF, but we had something to find for Feddies". Or you could take a more reserved approach and say "everybody got their share". But despising everything because it is just "scraps from Feds" will never leave you satisfied unless the KDF gets stuff others don't.
As for "for whom are the ships made" I'd say it differs. Take the Multi Mission Science pack. The original idea was clearly to create a T6 Vesta, so Fed centric. On the other hand, KDF and Rom finally got (a) their Vesta and (b) another Sci ship, which admittedly was scarce at lower levels. But yeah, point of origin was "something for the Feds".
On the other hand, we have the T6 capital ships, where the most interesting to players clearly was the Rom T6 Scimitar variation. Which is the one more people in this game talked about than their KDF or Fed counterparts. While the T6 Oddy was wildly requested, too, at least in my experience it paled in comparison.
And then there's packs like the pilot ships, the miracle worker ships, ... - here I see really no reason at all to talk about them being "made for Feds" (or any of the other two for that matter).
My mother was an epohh and my father smelled of tulaberries
> @xyquarze said: > As for the "different vs similar factions" debate: I think both patrick and som are partly right here. > > A complete carbon copy of everything would indeed minimize the incentive to play a different faction close to zero. > > A completely different playing mechanic and/or story would however, apart from being interesting to run once, mean that one faction will be more favored than the other, and complaints would arise, unless the balance were to be near perfect. That is the reason why many interesting game concepts (one monster vs five heroes) ultimately failed - there was a lack of players on one side, because the other side was just better/more interesting. > > The latter needn't be as pronounced in STO, since PvP is only a side issue, so as long as every playstyle can hold its own in PvE it would be okay (just as with the different careers - but again, look at the difference of the player base choosing Tac v Eng v Sci, even though Tac is the one furthest from what ST as a franchise showed). Also other games with huge imbalances work well for players (Blood Bowl), but will always have the one "Min/Max" you best get if you want to be top of the heap. > > Also, while I agree that Fed gets a few more ships, and got more than a few more in the past (up to Delta Rising), I find it quite questionable to call every ship bundle "made for Feds only, and then the others get the same". You could easily argue that it would work the other way round "made for KDF, but we had something to find for Feddies". Or you could take a more reserved approach and say "everybody got their share". But despising everything because it is just "scraps from Feds" will never leave you satisfied unless the KDF gets stuff others don't. > > As for "for whom are the ships made" I'd say it differs. Take the Multi Mission Science pack. The original idea was clearly to create a T6 Vesta, so Fed centric. On the other hand, KDF and Rom finally got (a) their Vesta and (b) another Sci ship, which admittedly was scarce at lower levels. But yeah, point of origin was "something for the Feds". > > On the other hand, we have the T6 capital ships, where the most interesting to players clearly was the Rom T6 Scimitar variation. Which is the one more people in this game talked about than their KDF or Fed counterparts. While the T6 Oddy was wildly requested, too, at least in my experience it paled in comparison. > > And then there's packs like the pilot ships, the miracle worker ships, ... - here I see really no reason at all to talk about them being "made for Feds" (or any of the other two for that matter).
You statement makes me wonder what the flag ships for the Dominion and Cardassian (if they are seperate) would be?
We already know the flag ship classes for the current factions, Fed/temporal fed is Odyssey, Romulan is Scimitar, and Klingon is Borq.
I'm looking forward to seeing what flag ships the other factions have.
> @xyquarze said: > orangeitis wrote: » > > They are not going to create a new faction, mini or otherwise and they have already said so in live-streams. > > > > If you watched the interviews, you wouldn't claim that they said the complete opposite of what they actually said. Which is, a Cardasian playable faction is inevitable and will operate like the Romulan faction, and the characters from factions like the Dominion or Cooperative will unlock at level 50 and start out at level 50, making them endgane factions.[/quote] > > "Inevitable"? I'd really like a cite about that because it in fact contradicts more or less everything I've heard or seen so far. Not that I am too much in the loop, mind you.
It surprises me that there could be a seperate Dominion and Cardassian factions.
Talking about Cardassian ships: the main problem, setting aside cost-benefit analysis, with Galor (or the Jem bug) already existing isn't so much the problem of creating non canon ships but that their most iconic ships wouldn't be available to them, or only for vast amounts (for a new player) of in game money, when everybody else has them too. This would be like Klingons flying the Enterprise.
As for "players who bought a Galor wouldn't mind if another version got to be available for free" or "life timers wouldn't mind if Borg toons were available to everybody, if there are some clothing restrictions" - I bet many wouldn't. But many also would,
My mother was an epohh and my father smelled of tulaberries
All a Dominion and/or Cardassian or a Borg Cooperative faction would need is 5 to 10 story missions, a few new costumes, a new style, 1 free ship, a bunch of C-Store ships, and a new social area that would likely be unavailable after deciding the faction. The Borg Cooperative faction could start at level 40 so it joins up with the Delta Quadrant arc.
Actually, based on how they did Agents of Yesterday and the TOS faction, I could see the following for the following factions:
Cardassian
-Start at Cardassian military earliest rank, Have tutorial missions flavored towards some kind of threat in Cardassian space that makes them join up with the Federation.
- do it from the point of the Cardassian struggle misisons, only give an introductiory arc before they join in there. starting at level 40. Ships can be a free base hideki at level 30, galor at level 40 and a Keldon at level 50 for the C-store (all sub par to the lock box ships)
Dominion
- Would end up being another late level entry group (likely starting around level 40-50, would gain access anything around 2800 series forward.
- Ships are a bit harder to pin point, but they would at least have choices and maybe some cryptic originals in there.
Borg Cooperative
- This one would have to be level 50 and they would be locked form the Alpha Quadrant/Beta Quadrant missions until the Jenolan sphere is used for travel between the Beta and Delta Quadrants. They would have the borg though as an adversary.
- Borg ships would range from the probes to the Cubes, maybe that unique ship from the last Data and Lore episode.
Part of the difficulty with Cardassian/Dominion forces would be that we don't have a lot of frames of reference. At least with Romulan and KDF ships, the show had provided us with a fairly decent peek into the aesthetic and design motifs (Romulan bird motifs, Klingon drop-wings, etc) to reliably create ships.
Also, perhaps for Cardassian forces, they could start out with three ships (One geared towards each type of initial style), and simply upgrade and refit the same vessel for the first stages (getting new skins, more gear, etc)
Talking about Cardassian ships: the main problem, setting aside cost-benefit analysis, with Galor (or the Jem bug) already existing isn't so much the problem of creating non canon ships but that their most iconic ships wouldn't be available to them, or only for vast amounts (for a new player) of in game money, when everybody else has them too. This would be like Klingons flying the Enterprise.
As for "players who bought a Galor wouldn't mind if another version got to be available for free" or "life timers wouldn't mind if Borg toons were available to everybody, if there are some clothing restrictions" - I bet many wouldn't. But many also would,
I think it was Geko who said a few years back that putting the Galor class into a lockbox was a mistake. (Probably because they were planning on making a playable Cardassian faction at that point). But then they put another Cardassian ship into a lockbox, the Keldon class, which made me believe they had given up on their original plans. After all, the only canon ship exclusive left for Cardassians would be the Hideki class.
I own both a Galor and a Keldon class. I wouldn't mind Cardassian faction players getting them for free. But it would be... weird to see Feds, Klingons and Romulans flying around in ships that really should be exclusive to your faction.
> @tyler002 said: > Any weirder than Federation and Klingon players flying around in Romulan Warbirds?
Or Romulan players flying around in Federation and Klingon ships. I played one rank on my Rom in a Gladius, and there was that giveaway bug a few years back that let Fed Roms claim the T5 Ambassador.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Part of the difficulty with Cardassian/Dominion forces would be that we don't have a lot of frames of reference. At least with Romulan and KDF ships, the show had provided us with a fairly decent peek into the aesthetic and design motifs (Romulan bird motifs, Klingon drop-wings, etc) to reliably create ships.
Also, perhaps for Cardassian forces, they could start out with three ships (One geared towards each type of initial style), and simply upgrade and refit the same vessel for the first stages (getting new skins, more gear, etc)
The Cardassians got more screentime just on Deep Space Nine (and more detailed development) than the Romulans have gotten in four series, a movie, etc.
it's not a lack of material to use, it's the simple fact that it would be expensive, and only appeal to a minority of players in a situation where the business model only serves the demographic majority.
Not as far as craft go. Romulans have had everything from Scimitar-class to T'varo, Mogai, and D'deridex-class ships, and have a fairly solidly established avian theme with their mainline ships. Cardassian, all we've seen on-screen are Galor/Keldon-class, Hideki-class (Which are markedly different, design-wise), and noncombatant ships, both of which are ALSO different. It's harder for a creative team to make ships that fit a faction from two examples.
So as well all know STO started off in 2409 and has since moved to 2410. The vast majority of the story missions occur in 2409. Any new content would be by definition in 2410 so that eliminates the romulan faction thing of starting off with unique missions then joining a faction and going from there. It worked with AOY because it was in the past and then went to the future. They would have to have a new set of missions for a possible Jem'Hadar faction and I don't think that they are going to do that. ( Would be amazing if they did). So I think people should stop getting their hopes up. I'm sure whatever they add in the expansion will still be substantive and great as all the previous expansions.
Wrong...there is one coming in a few months...wait and see! Might not be a FULL faction like KDF or even a Half a$$ like Romulans but perhaps like 1/3rd faction like AOY was...
Yea, I don't care about a faction, fraction, or sub-whatever. I just want access to Card, Jem, and Vorta races through my current factions/fraction. They also can add the correct parts to alien generator for those that made their own versions, along with traits fitting the Gamma/Cardassian races. I would like to see a bundle with Gamma ships and Hideki (t1/t6) in C-store, Kasidy Yates freighter (R&D), and a free light ship (make that a mission reward).
Discovery's writers have stated that Romulans are off-limits to them.
^This
Though the ISS Charon had some seemingly Romulan influences in its design, which would make sense given that the Terran Empire likely conquered them.
Except for the fact that the Mirror Romulans were indicated to be independent in DS9: There's a brief mention of Mirror Sisko going to seek their help for the Rebellion. Given Romulan lifespans and ability to hold grudges I doubt they'd help the Terrans against the KCA if the Terrans had previously been their overlords.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Comments
And Cryptic frankly isn't nearly as big a company as Blizzard nor is their game anywhere near as popular, so they really do have to prioritize (especially since they're also simultaneously running Neverwinter and Champions Online). You also have to consider that the game was EXTREMELY rushed in development after they took over the license from Perpetual: they got thirteen months and elected to start from scratch, which, anyone who's played unmodded KOTOR2 could have worked out how that would go.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
"Inevitable"? I'd really like a cite about that because it in fact contradicts more or less everything I've heard or seen so far. Not that I am too much in the loop, mind you.
A complete carbon copy of everything would indeed minimize the incentive to play a different faction close to zero.
A completely different playing mechanic and/or story would however, apart from being interesting to run once, mean that one faction will be more favored than the other, and complaints would arise, unless the balance were to be near perfect. That is the reason why many interesting game concepts (one monster vs five heroes) ultimately failed - there was a lack of players on one side, because the other side was just better/more interesting.
The latter needn't be as pronounced in STO, since PvP is only a side issue, so as long as every playstyle can hold its own in PvE it would be okay (just as with the different careers - but again, look at the difference of the player base choosing Tac v Eng v Sci, even though Tac is the one furthest from what ST as a franchise showed). Also other games with huge imbalances work well for players (Blood Bowl), but will always have the one "Min/Max" you best get if you want to be top of the heap.
Also, while I agree that Fed gets a few more ships, and got more than a few more in the past (up to Delta Rising), I find it quite questionable to call every ship bundle "made for Feds only, and then the others get the same". You could easily argue that it would work the other way round "made for KDF, but we had something to find for Feddies". Or you could take a more reserved approach and say "everybody got their share". But despising everything because it is just "scraps from Feds" will never leave you satisfied unless the KDF gets stuff others don't.
As for "for whom are the ships made" I'd say it differs. Take the Multi Mission Science pack. The original idea was clearly to create a T6 Vesta, so Fed centric. On the other hand, KDF and Rom finally got (a) their Vesta and (b) another Sci ship, which admittedly was scarce at lower levels. But yeah, point of origin was "something for the Feds".
On the other hand, we have the T6 capital ships, where the most interesting to players clearly was the Rom T6 Scimitar variation. Which is the one more people in this game talked about than their KDF or Fed counterparts. While the T6 Oddy was wildly requested, too, at least in my experience it paled in comparison.
And then there's packs like the pilot ships, the miracle worker ships, ... - here I see really no reason at all to talk about them being "made for Feds" (or any of the other two for that matter).
> As for the "different vs similar factions" debate: I think both patrick and som are partly right here.
>
> A complete carbon copy of everything would indeed minimize the incentive to play a different faction close to zero.
>
> A completely different playing mechanic and/or story would however, apart from being interesting to run once, mean that one faction will be more favored than the other, and complaints would arise, unless the balance were to be near perfect. That is the reason why many interesting game concepts (one monster vs five heroes) ultimately failed - there was a lack of players on one side, because the other side was just better/more interesting.
>
> The latter needn't be as pronounced in STO, since PvP is only a side issue, so as long as every playstyle can hold its own in PvE it would be okay (just as with the different careers - but again, look at the difference of the player base choosing Tac v Eng v Sci, even though Tac is the one furthest from what ST as a franchise showed). Also other games with huge imbalances work well for players (Blood Bowl), but will always have the one "Min/Max" you best get if you want to be top of the heap.
>
> Also, while I agree that Fed gets a few more ships, and got more than a few more in the past (up to Delta Rising), I find it quite questionable to call every ship bundle "made for Feds only, and then the others get the same". You could easily argue that it would work the other way round "made for KDF, but we had something to find for Feddies". Or you could take a more reserved approach and say "everybody got their share". But despising everything because it is just "scraps from Feds" will never leave you satisfied unless the KDF gets stuff others don't.
>
> As for "for whom are the ships made" I'd say it differs. Take the Multi Mission Science pack. The original idea was clearly to create a T6 Vesta, so Fed centric. On the other hand, KDF and Rom finally got (a) their Vesta and (b) another Sci ship, which admittedly was scarce at lower levels. But yeah, point of origin was "something for the Feds".
>
> On the other hand, we have the T6 capital ships, where the most interesting to players clearly was the Rom T6 Scimitar variation. Which is the one more people in this game talked about than their KDF or Fed counterparts. While the T6 Oddy was wildly requested, too, at least in my experience it paled in comparison.
>
> And then there's packs like the pilot ships, the miracle worker ships, ... - here I see really no reason at all to talk about them being "made for Feds" (or any of the other two for that matter).
You statement makes me wonder what the flag ships for the Dominion and Cardassian (if they are seperate) would be?
We already know the flag ship classes for the current factions, Fed/temporal fed is Odyssey, Romulan is Scimitar, and Klingon is Borq.
I'm looking forward to seeing what flag ships the other factions have.
> orangeitis wrote: »
>
> They are not going to create a new faction, mini or otherwise and they have already said so in live-streams.
>
>
>
> If you watched the interviews, you wouldn't claim that they said the complete opposite of what they actually said. Which is, a Cardasian playable faction is inevitable and will operate like the Romulan faction, and the characters from factions like the Dominion or Cooperative will unlock at level 50 and start out at level 50, making them endgane factions.[/quote]
>
> "Inevitable"? I'd really like a cite about that because it in fact contradicts more or less everything I've heard or seen so far. Not that I am too much in the loop, mind you.
It surprises me that there could be a seperate Dominion and Cardassian factions.
As for "players who bought a Galor wouldn't mind if another version got to be available for free" or "life timers wouldn't mind if Borg toons were available to everybody, if there are some clothing restrictions" - I bet many wouldn't. But many also would,
Actually, based on how they did Agents of Yesterday and the TOS faction, I could see the following for the following factions:
Cardassian
-Start at Cardassian military earliest rank, Have tutorial missions flavored towards some kind of threat in Cardassian space that makes them join up with the Federation.
- do it from the point of the Cardassian struggle misisons, only give an introductiory arc before they join in there. starting at level 40. Ships can be a free base hideki at level 30, galor at level 40 and a Keldon at level 50 for the C-store (all sub par to the lock box ships)
Dominion
- Would end up being another late level entry group (likely starting around level 40-50, would gain access anything around 2800 series forward.
- Ships are a bit harder to pin point, but they would at least have choices and maybe some cryptic originals in there.
Borg Cooperative
- This one would have to be level 50 and they would be locked form the Alpha Quadrant/Beta Quadrant missions until the Jenolan sphere is used for travel between the Beta and Delta Quadrants. They would have the borg though as an adversary.
- Borg ships would range from the probes to the Cubes, maybe that unique ship from the last Data and Lore episode.
Also, perhaps for Cardassian forces, they could start out with three ships (One geared towards each type of initial style), and simply upgrade and refit the same vessel for the first stages (getting new skins, more gear, etc)
I think it was Geko who said a few years back that putting the Galor class into a lockbox was a mistake. (Probably because they were planning on making a playable Cardassian faction at that point). But then they put another Cardassian ship into a lockbox, the Keldon class, which made me believe they had given up on their original plans. After all, the only canon ship exclusive left for Cardassians would be the Hideki class.
I own both a Galor and a Keldon class. I wouldn't mind Cardassian faction players getting them for free. But it would be... weird to see Feds, Klingons and Romulans flying around in ships that really should be exclusive to your faction.
Any weirder than Federation and Klingon players flying around in Romulan Warbirds?
> Any weirder than Federation and Klingon players flying around in Romulan Warbirds?
Or Romulan players flying around in Federation and Klingon ships. I played one rank on my Rom in a Gladius, and there was that giveaway bug a few years back that let Fed Roms claim the T5 Ambassador.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Not as far as craft go. Romulans have had everything from Scimitar-class to T'varo, Mogai, and D'deridex-class ships, and have a fairly solidly established avian theme with their mainline ships. Cardassian, all we've seen on-screen are Galor/Keldon-class, Hideki-class (Which are markedly different, design-wise), and noncombatant ships, both of which are ALSO different. It's harder for a creative team to make ships that fit a faction from two examples.
Wrong...there is one coming in a few months...wait and see! Might not be a FULL faction like KDF or even a Half a$$ like Romulans but perhaps like 1/3rd faction like AOY was...
Except for the fact that the Mirror Romulans were indicated to be independent in DS9: There's a brief mention of Mirror Sisko going to seek their help for the Rebellion. Given Romulan lifespans and ability to hold grudges I doubt they'd help the Terrans against the KCA if the Terrans had previously been their overlords.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/