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  • leemwatsonleemwatson Member Posts: 4,668 Arc User
    You can't buy the ship if it's not on the Exchange.....Just remember that.

    And I am vexxed by people saying that others should pay $100's of dollars just to line another player's pocket. At the end of the day, if everyone took the 'sell keys for EC' advice, then there would be no ships to buy.

    The most important things to remember when it comes to lockboxes, don't listen to other player's conception of the odd's, don't let them berate you for supporting the game by buying keys to open boxes, AND ALWAYS keep to a limit.

    Personally, I will buy keys to open boxes and sell the goodies. If I win a ship then YAY! I've numerous ships and never spend more than £30 a quarter on keys. Eventually I earn more than enough EC (About 40 mill from Admiralty and the rest from making stuff and selling lockbox stuff) to buy a ship out-right. I will never bow down to ridicule, nor 1.5 Billion EC requests.
    "You don't want to patrol!? You don't want to escort!? You don't want to defend the Federation's Starbases!? Then why are you flying my Starships!? If you were a Klingon you'd be killed on the spot, but lucky for you.....you WERE in Starfleet. Let's see how New Zealand Penal Colony suits you." Adm A. Necheyev.
  • disqord#9557 disqord Member Posts: 567 Arc User
    I can summarize this and every other 'enlightened' "Hey guys I figured out how to get all of these sick lockbox and promo ships without paying ANY MONEY!!!1!" F2P post.

    Step 1: Throw away your life by spending a thousand hours a week doing nothing but running battlezones and admirality, grinding dilithium to the point that you spend more time grinding than playing.

    Step 2: Post a "guide" on how amazing it is that NOBODY has EVER thought of doing this before.
  • coqaunandos117#2576 coqaunandos117 Member Posts: 65 Arc User
    edited January 2018
    leemwatson wrote: »
    You can't buy the ship if it's not on the Exchange.....Just remember that.

    And I am vexxed by people saying that others should pay $100's of dollars just to line another player's pocket. At the end of the day, if everyone took the 'sell keys for EC' advice, then there would be no ships to buy.

    Since I already addressed that false argument in the OP, I'm just going to copy/paste what I said:

    "Lastly, a common misconception: if everybody who wanted these ships just bought them on the exchange, no one would be opening boxes and there would be no ships for sale in the first place. Here is why that is wrong: first, 'everybody' will never do the same thing. But beyond that, ask yourself this question: why are there ships for sell on the exchange in the first place. The answer is because the people selling them didn't actually want those ships. If they did, they would have kept them. Those people were opening boxes to get something they wanted besides the ship. Maybe lobi; maybe other things. Either way, there will always be ships for sell on the exchange because there are people winning ships who don't want to keep them for themselves. They would rather have the EC by selling it to you."
    The most important things to remember when it comes to lockboxes, don't listen to other player's conception of the odd's,

    It's not about anyone's "conception". Numerous tests have been run that have given an approximate understanding of the statistical odds. Someone opened 10,000 packs on tribble once and posted their results. That's not about anyone's opinion, those are just stats.
    don't let them berate you for supporting the game by buying keys to open boxes, AND ALWAYS keep to a limit.

    No one is berating anyone. As far as supporting the game, buying zen also supports the game, so people who buy zen to sell keys are also supporting the game.
    Personally, I will buy keys to open boxes and sell the goodies. If I win a ship then YAY! I've numerous ships and never spend more than £30 a quarter on keys. Eventually I earn more than enough EC (About 40 mill from Admiralty and the rest from making stuff and selling lockbox stuff) to buy a ship out-right. I will never bow down to ridicule, nor 1.5 Billion EC requests.

    That's great. Do whatever makes you happy. But plenty of people have spent hundreds of dollars and not gotten a ship, and were NOT happy. This post is to try to help people avoid that situation by giving them a guaranteed way to get the ship they want with no risk.
    I can summarize this and every other 'enlightened' "Hey guys I figured out how to get all of these sick lockbox and promo ships without paying ANY MONEY!!!1!" F2P post.

    Step 1: Throw away your life by spending a thousand hours a week doing nothing but running battlezones and admirality, grinding dilithium to the point that you spend more time grinding than playing.

    Step 2: Post a "guide" on how amazing it is that NOBODY has EVER thought of doing this before.

    Actually, that really has nothing to do with the points I discussed.
  • davefenestratordavefenestrator Member Posts: 9,899 Arc User
    @leemwatson

    - The odds really are 1:250 for lock boxes and 1:100 for R&D packs. We have years of empirical evidence from people opening thousands of boxes and packs to back this up, you offer "trust no one!" as gut-feeling-based "alternative evidence."
    - Buying from the Exchange IS SUPPORTING THE GAME. Those ships did not appear by magic. Someone gave Cryptic the money for 250 keys (on average) for each lock box ship on the Exchange. Just like when you use the Dil exchange to turn Dil into Zen, someone gave Cryptic money to get that magic Zen.
  • orangenee#2931 orangenee Member Posts: 832 Arc User
    I make money by doffing, admiralty and the old buy low sell high technique that everybody thinks is super clever but really isn't.

    Dilithium can be made with very little effort by the above doffing etc and completing reps, tours and admiralty tracks. My main has several weeks worth from just that. None of those things require much effort as nearly everything involves a timer of some sort.

    The main problem with people is impatience. Now now now, just wait. Slow and steady wins the race. I buy keys with loose change from buying zen ships and maybe toss some down a lockbox and sell some. Best thing I won was an free upgrade T5 (Voth bastion) which I kept and use now.

    The game doesn't HAVE to be a job.
  • ravinravin Member Posts: 509 Arc User
    Lock boxes aren't gambling. Gambling includes a chance to win nothing. Just because you don't win what you want doesn't make it gambling.
    =\/= ================================ =\/=
    Centurion maximus92
    12th Legion, Romulan Republic
    12th Fleet

    =\/= ================================ =\/=
  • davefenestratordavefenestrator Member Posts: 9,899 Arc User
    ravin wrote: »
    Lock boxes aren't gambling. Gambling includes a chance to win nothing. Just because you don't win what you want doesn't make it gambling.

    There are other threads on that, search for them and join the horse-beating. My TL;DR:

    Lock boxes are not currently regulated as gambling according to the laws of the territories in which STO operates.

    Lock boxes ARE gambling according to common English definitions of the word. The reward is based on chance and varies from a ship down to useless junk. If you are trying for the ship you have a 249 out of 250 chance of losing (getting no ship).
  • coqaunandos117#2576 coqaunandos117 Member Posts: 65 Arc User
    ravin wrote: »
    Lock boxes aren't gambling. Gambling includes a chance to win nothing. Just because you don't win what you want doesn't make it gambling.
    Lock boxes ARE gambling according to common English definitions of the word. The reward is based on chance and varies from a ship down to useless junk. If you are trying for the ship you have a 249 out of 250 chance of losing (getting no ship).

    Yeah, just adding to dave: whether boxes are 'technically' gambling or not is irrelevant to my actual point. If the sole reason you are opening a box is to get a ship, then you are effectively gambling. And if that's what you want to do, cool. I am simply trying to make sure people know that is not your only option, and that you have an alternative that actually gives a 100% chance to get the ship.
  • postagepaidpostagepaid Member Posts: 2,870 Arc User
    And of course once you bought the ship, copy that character over to tribble and test fly it first.

    If you don't like the ship it means you still have it boxed up on holodeck for selling on the exchange, for a profit of course.
  • coqaunandos117#2576 coqaunandos117 Member Posts: 65 Arc User
    And of course once you bought the ship, copy that character over to tribble and test fly it first.

    If you don't like the ship it means you still have it boxed up on holodeck for selling on the exchange, for a profit of course.

    See the Pro Tip! under step 5.
  • leemwatsonleemwatson Member Posts: 4,668 Arc User
    leemwatson wrote: »
    You can't buy the ship if it's not on the Exchange.....Just remember that.

    And I am vexxed by people saying that others should pay $100's of dollars just to line another player's pocket. At the end of the day, if everyone took the 'sell keys for EC' advice, then there would be no ships to buy.

    Since I already addressed that false argument in the OP, I'm just going to copy/paste what I said:

    "Lastly, a common misconception: if everybody who wanted these ships just bought them on the exchange, no one would be opening boxes and there would be no ships for sale in the first place. Here is why that is wrong: first, 'everybody' will never do the same thing. But beyond that, ask yourself this question: why are there ships for sell on the exchange in the first place. The answer is because the people selling them didn't actually want those ships. If they did, they would have kept them. Those people were opening boxes to get something they wanted besides the ship. Maybe lobi; maybe other things. Either way, there will always be ships for sell on the exchange because there are people winning ships who don't want to keep them for themselves. They would rather have the EC by selling it to you."
    The most important things to remember when it comes to lockboxes, don't listen to other player's conception of the odd's,

    It's not about anyone's "conception". Numerous tests have been run that have given an approximate understanding of the statistical odds. Someone opened 10,000 packs on tribble once and posted their results. That's not about anyone's opinion, those are just stats.
    don't let them berate you for supporting the game by buying keys to open boxes, AND ALWAYS keep to a limit.

    No one is berating anyone. As far as supporting the game, buying zen also supports the game, so people who buy zen to sell keys are also supporting the game.
    Personally, I will buy keys to open boxes and sell the goodies. If I win a ship then YAY! I've numerous ships and never spend more than £30 a quarter on keys. Eventually I earn more than enough EC (About 40 mill from Admiralty and the rest from making stuff and selling lockbox stuff) to buy a ship out-right. I will never bow down to ridicule, nor 1.5 Billion EC requests.

    That's great. Do whatever makes you happy. But plenty of people have spent hundreds of dollars and not gotten a ship, and were NOT happy. This post is to try to help people avoid that situation by giving them a guaranteed way to get the ship they want with no risk.
    I can summarize this and every other 'enlightened' "Hey guys I figured out how to get all of these sick lockbox and promo ships without paying ANY MONEY!!!1!" F2P post.

    Step 1: Throw away your life by spending a thousand hours a week doing nothing but running battlezones and admirality, grinding dilithium to the point that you spend more time grinding than playing.

    Step 2: Post a "guide" on how amazing it is that NOBODY has EVER thought of doing this before.

    Actually, that really has nothing to do with the points I discussed.

    I wrote the post in addition to your own. I wasn't arguing against it.

    I'll be clear on this however. Someone opening 10,000 boxes on Tribble proves nothing. Observed odds only give a base indicator. I know the odds of drawing a T6 ship are not 0.25% as claimed. A Dev a couple of years back confirmed on a stream that the chance of drawing a T6 was 1%. Again, opening boxes on Tribble or Holodeck can't prove or disprove it and in a post a couple of months ago I addressed how RNG works with computers. You can draw 10 ships from 10 boxes or none from a million. The odds do not change!

    You're 'guaranteed' method is also not guaranteed either. It still requires people to open boxes. Encouraging people to spend more money than they are willing to by this method is more reprehenisble. And yes, people do berate others for opening boxes with keys, and I see this alot, and they resort to tell people to use this 'guaranteed' method.

    For example:-

    "Hey guys, I just spent £30 on keys for boxes. Gonna see if I can win a ship."

    "You're stupid for opening boxes with keys. Spend £150 on keys and sell them for EC and you're guaranteed to get that ship."

    "There's no ships I want on the exchange.........."

    "Just wait. Someone will post one."

    A few people are quick to call Cryptic out for the Lockboxes, which are a "guaranteed prize raffle" (You always win something), and claim it's a waste of money, whilst also encouraging people to spend many times more just to line their own pockets. Lockboxes, whilst might fit the dictionary definition of 'Gambling to see which prize you get (But you can't lose, hence Guranteed Prize Raffle)', doesn't not fit the actual legal definition of 'Gambling to win a real world stake with a chance that the player will lose everything'. Magic:The Gathering, Pokemon, Sticker albums all use the same model, where you buy a packet of cards and hope you win what you're after.

    Opening boxes benefits Cryptic and the player (who can make EC from selling items, earning Lobi, and winning stuff) way more than buying keys to sell for EC, which benefits Cryptic and the selling player leaving the original player with just a ship and an empty wallet. That selling player then goes happy to the exchange to buy keys for EC and then goes and wins many more ships and items. This is morally worse than what people claim Cryptic are doing.

    For example:-

    Open Box method:- £30 on Keys. I possibly win a ship, but make millions of EC, a trait or two, plus weapons.

    'Guaranteed' method:- £150 on Keys. I get a ship but nothing else. No Lobi, no EC, no traits, no weapons, no consoles. I get a single ship. The player selling the ship gets hundreds of millions of EC, and potentially gets more stuff than the player spending £30!!

    I hope my point is made sufficiently.
    "You don't want to patrol!? You don't want to escort!? You don't want to defend the Federation's Starbases!? Then why are you flying my Starships!? If you were a Klingon you'd be killed on the spot, but lucky for you.....you WERE in Starfleet. Let's see how New Zealand Penal Colony suits you." Adm A. Necheyev.
  • bernatkbernatk Member Posts: 1,089 Bug Hunter
    if there's no ship on the exchange then do what I did. I asked in zone chat on ESD, someone answered and I traded my keys for the desired ship. Simple, a cave man can do it.
    Tck7dQ2.jpg
    Dahar Master Mary Sue                                               Fleet Admiral Bloody Mary
  • postagepaidpostagepaid Member Posts: 2,870 Arc User
    And of course once you bought the ship, copy that character over to tribble and test fly it first.

    If you don't like the ship it means you still have it boxed up on holodeck for selling on the exchange, for a profit of course.

    See the Pro Tip! under step 5.

    Yeah but worth repeating for folk who skimmed the initial post. (says I trying to hide the fact I might not have read it entirely at 3.20am)

    Using tribble is probably the most important thing to know when buying any ship in sto given that there's no other way to see what the ship is actually like to fly. But its almost a vital step for the per character vessels.
  • coqaunandos117#2576 coqaunandos117 Member Posts: 65 Arc User
    edited January 2018
    leemwatson wrote: »
    You're 'guaranteed' method is also not guaranteed either.

    Wrong. I can absolutely buy a Vanguard right now on the exchange if I want to. I mean, it's there. Lots of them. There is no "risk" that I won't get it if I have the EC to buy it.
    It still requires people to open boxes.

    Of course people have to open boxes; that's where the ships come from. But the point is that all of those ships currently sitting on the exchange are being sold by people who didn't want them. Therefore, that proves we have people opening boxes who don't want the ship. That means the people who DO want the ship can buy it from those people.
    Encouraging people to spend more money than they are willing to by this method is more reprehenisble.

    I never said people should spend more than they are willing. I never said anything remotely like that.
    Ad yes, people do berate others for opening boxes with keys, and I see this alot, and they resort to tell people to use this 'guaranteed' method.

    That has nothing to do with me or my thread. I am not berating anyone for their choice, so you cannot try to blame me for something someone else said. Do you want me to try to blame you for something dumb someone said that you didn't?
    "There's no ships I want on the exchange.........."

    What ship are you looking for that is not on the exchange? Seriously, tell me. Any lock box ship I have even wanted and gotten was on the exchange. But tell me the one you can't find on the exchange and we'll talk about that.
    Lockboxes, whilst might fit the dictionary definition of 'Gambling to see which prize you get (But you can't lose, hence Guranteed Prize Raffle)', doesn't not fit the actual legal definition of 'Gambling to win a real world stake with a chance that the player will lose everything'.

    Whether boxes are 'technically' gambling or not is irrelevant to my actual point. If the sole reason you are opening a box is to get a ship, then you are effectively gambling. And if that's what you want to do, cool. I am simply trying to make sure people know that is not your only option, and that you have an alternative that actually gives a 100% chance to get the ship.
    Opening boxes benefits Cryptic and the player (who can make EC from selling items, earning Lobi, and winning stuff) way more than buying keys to sell for EC, which benefits Cryptic and the selling player leaving the original player with just a ship and an empty wallet. That selling player then goes happy to the exchange to buy keys for EC and then goes and wins many more ships and items. This is morally worse than what people claim Cryptic are doing.

    For example:-

    Open Box method:- £30 on Keys. I possibly win a ship, but make millions of EC, a trait or two, plus weapons.

    'Guaranteed' method:- £150 on Keys. I get a ship but nothing else. No Lobi, no EC, no traits, no weapons, no consoles. I get a single ship. The player selling the ship gets hundreds of millions of EC, and potentially gets more stuff than the player spending £30!!

    I hope my point is made sufficiently.

    Look, we obviously have different preferences, and that's fine. If you prefer to drop a fixed amount of money and risk not getting the ship, that's fine. That doesn't make you dumb or anything else. I simply prefer to use a method that guarantees I get the ship, even if it costs a higher amount than your fixed amount.

    The problem, unfortunately, is there are many people who don't have a fixed amount. They don't have the self control to stop themselves at $30 if they haven't won the ship. Over the years I have seen many posts from people who spent hundreds of dollars, gotten no ship, and feel horrible. My thread is aimed more at that type of person than at you. I want people to at least understand they have a way to get the ship that doesn't involve any risk of not getting the ship.

    Spending $138 dollars, while admittedly high to get a ship in a video game, is still better than spending $300 and not getting the ship at all, which is the boat many people have found themselves in.

  • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 9,427 Arc User
    In my experience, these threads are aimed at trying to manipulate the market in the direction of cheaper keys and more expensive ships to increase the poster's own profits.
  • coqaunandos117#2576 coqaunandos117 Member Posts: 65 Arc User
    warpangel wrote: »
    In my experience, these threads are aimed at trying to manipulate the market in the direction of cheaper keys and more expensive ships to increase the poster's own profits.

    I can't speak to anyone else's motivation, and neither can you. But I can speak for myself, and I have no stake in the market at this point. I got my ship on day one and therefore have what I personally want. For most people that's all they care about.

    But I was actually motivated to write this thread after reading a post in a different thread. I won't show the poster's name, but this is what they said:

    xgPiPCk.jpg

    I genuinely feel sorry for that person, and wish they didn't feel the way they did. So hopefully this thread will at least help someone else from feeling that way.
  • saekiithsaekiith Member Posts: 533 Arc User
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    Or...play like an hour a day on 3 toons and do some smart market investments and have over a billion EC after the first year of play maybe? It's actually not that hard.

    Oh so you only need to do nothing but grind for close to a year to get the ship...

    Selor Andaram Ephelion Kiith
  • nimbullnimbull Member Posts: 1,552 Arc User
    edited January 2018
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    I can summarize this and every other 'enlightened' "Hey guys I figured out how to get all of these sick lockbox and promo ships without paying ANY MONEY!!!1!" F2P post.

    Step 1: Throw away your life by spending a thousand hours a week doing nothing but running battlezones and admirality, grinding dilithium to the point that you spend more time grinding than playing.

    Step 2: Post a "guide" on how amazing it is that NOBODY has EVER thought of doing this before.

    Or...play like an hour a day on 3 toons and do some smart market investments and have over a billion EC after the first year of play maybe? It's actually not that hard.

    That's kinda like saying it's not hard when you buy the winning $1,000,000 lottery ticket. Yet when 999,999 others buy the same winning ticket suddenly it's a lot more harder to get the larger amount of return.

    I've found the easiest way to get lockbox ships without gambling is to sell the keys to gamblers and use the money from that to buy the ship you want.
    Green people don't have to be.... little.
  • jcswwjcsww Member Posts: 6,579 Arc User
    The most important tip about obtaining the ship you want for the cheapest price is missing. When the new shiny is new, it will be in more demend, making the price higher. Wait until the next lockbox comes out and then look for the ships from the previous one. You will more than likely see more than just a dozen ships on the Exchange that people will be trying to get rid of to stock up on EC for the new incoming shiny that will be nerfed a week after it comes out.
  • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 9,427 Arc User
    a
    jcsww wrote: »
    The most important tip about obtaining the ship you want for the cheapest price is missing. When the new shiny is new, it will be in more demend, making the price higher. Wait until the next lockbox comes out and then look for the ships from the previous one. You will more than likely see more than just a dozen ships on the Exchange that people will be trying to get rid of to stock up on EC for the new incoming shiny that will be nerfed a week after it comes out.
    See, that's actually a good advice. Only suckers buy lockbox ships on day 1.
  • davefenestratordavefenestrator Member Posts: 9,899 Arc User
    warpangel wrote: »
    In my experience, these threads are aimed at trying to manipulate the market in the direction of cheaper keys and more expensive ships to increase the poster's own profits.

    [ CITATION NEEDED ]

    Please provide some evidence for this wild claim.

    I have created and posted agreement with threads like this for years. I have never sold a T6 lock box, lobi or pack ship just a couple of the cheap T5 consolation prizes.

    I have however read at least a dozen "I spent $100 - $500 and did not get a ship" threads. Some of us feel empathy and want to help people like this before they make that mistake.
  • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 9,427 Arc User
    I have created and posted agreement with threads like this for years. I have never sold a T6 lock box, lobi or pack ship just a couple of the cheap T5 consolation prizes.
    Or so you say.
  • davefenestratordavefenestrator Member Posts: 9,899 Arc User
    warpangel wrote: »
    I have created and posted agreement with threads like this for years. I have never sold a T6 lock box, lobi or pack ship just a couple of the cheap T5 consolation prizes.
    Or so you say.

    Yes, everyone is out to get you! Eek!

    How do we know you're not an Undine just pretending to be a conspiracy theorist? The weak shall perish (after opening lock boxes)!
  • nommo#5819 nommo Member Posts: 1,105 Arc User
    An excellent thread topic. I'm sure there are several valid methods in accomplishing this with different efficiencies, but it never hurts to be suggested a path so one can decide to pursue it.
  • mikejf1220#5024 mikejf1220 Member Posts: 45 Arc User
    I am honestly shocked by how bitter some of the people replying to this thread are. The guy who posted is just explaining how people can get a ship without having to gamble, if they want to. He never said people who do it "the old fashioned way" are ignorant or wrong, he just gave an alternative. But for some reason, certain people are butthurt just by having this information put out there. The only people I can even imagine not liking this would be the regular key sellers, since this would create more competition and drive their prices down. By why anyone else would be so bitter and butthurt about an informative post is really beyond me.
  • sabrevt1100sabrevt1100 Member Posts: 82 Arc User
    coqaunandos117
    I enjoyed your OP. Very well thought out in my opinion and very informative. I use the lockboxes mainly for Lobi and traits and I'll buy a couple of keys a month with Dilithium just to see what I get. Tribble testing is a very good way to take one for a test drive. Use it often. Thanks again. Good post and I enjoyed it.
    "Bite Me! It's Fun." - Crow T. Robot
  • leemwatsonleemwatson Member Posts: 4,668 Arc User
    warpangel wrote: »
    In my experience, these threads are aimed at trying to manipulate the market in the direction of cheaper keys and more expensive ships to increase the poster's own profits.

    At least you got my point. Lol.
    warpangel wrote: »
    In my experience, these threads are aimed at trying to manipulate the market in the direction of cheaper keys and more expensive ships to increase the poster's own profits.

    I can't speak to anyone else's motivation, and neither can you. But I can speak for myself, and I have no stake in the market at this point. I got my ship on day one and therefore have what I personally want. For most people that's all they care about.

    But I was actually motivated to write this thread after reading a post in a different thread. I won't show the poster's name, but this is what they said:

    xgPiPCk.jpg

    I genuinely feel sorry for that person, and wish they didn't feel the way they did. So hopefully this thread will at least help someone else from feeling that way.

    I wasn't attempting to argue or disagree. That is not my intention. I was elaborating and adding some context to your original post abit more by providing more information and another point of view. At no point am I being nasty or bitter about it. And I totally agree with @warpangel's point of view. Yes, there are also people who don't have the self-control I have, but I was pointing out and re-enforcing your own points on the the negative side of the 'Guaranteed Ship' claim.

    As for ships, I've been after an Annorax (and others), there have been plenty of times it's not been on the Exchange, and when it is, then it's 1.5 Billion, but I will not part with $300 dollars just for that ship, when I would rather spend that on opening boxes and selling what I don't want for reasonable prices. I've probably spent about $300-400 on keys and R&D Promos in the near 7 years I've played and I've won 2 Kelvin Connies (from 70 opened at one time), Paradox, Elachi Escort, Temporal Destroyer, Tal-Shiar BC, TOS Connie (From opening 13 R&D), Elachi Sheshar Intel (off the top of my head). I've made a few hundred million off selling stuff out of those boxes. Yes, I might be lucky, but I wouldn't fleece a fellow player either, (and yes, I understand 'supply and demand' I studied Business and Finance at college).
    "You don't want to patrol!? You don't want to escort!? You don't want to defend the Federation's Starbases!? Then why are you flying my Starships!? If you were a Klingon you'd be killed on the spot, but lucky for you.....you WERE in Starfleet. Let's see how New Zealand Penal Colony suits you." Adm A. Necheyev.
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