-Every Trek show has looked more advanced then the last, even ENT, which was a prequel, because our perceptions of what is high tech in the future changed year by year, so the shows change as they are made to reflect that
That's true in a certain way, BUT while DS9, ENT and VOY has a more advanced tech, they made a conscious effort to respect the TOS aesthetics as a respect to TOS. DS9 and ENT recreated the whole bridge and DS9 used stock footage they tweaked.
They could have gone the easy way and say "the easthetics don't fit our current views, we visually retcon the whole thing and the fans will have to deal with it!", but instead, they had the characters acknowledging it and going between "It's an older style, sir, but it checks out and the uniforms are cool" and "wow, this looks so 60s, but it's obliterating all the Empire's enemies with nothing stopping it, we're keeping it!"
It's always both funny and sad when you see that, no matter what, you'll have a ever-growing of "Stop saying everything is black and white! Let me show you by telling how your opinion is the lamest black and mine is the coolest white!".
And even if you provide several reasons you don't like something enough to support it and even if you talk about the positive stuff, you'll be attacked as a hater who hates everything/changes/different opinion/the new world/the old world, torpedoing any possible constructive debate. Which in turn makes having debates becoming less and less of a trend being replaced by a strict "you're with us or against us, even if you're just at 55% against and 45% ". You either love or like something, but if you can't like something because you think the cons outweigh the pros, you're automatically a hater, and vice-versa.
Personally, I hate Discovery, but there are things I like, but those things aren't enough compared to those I hate.
Same with the Last Jedi. I don't like, despite some good and very good (like the green part) things it and my main reason is I hate anything where the plot happens because characters act like idiots (except horror comedies where it's the point, of course. Oh boy is TLJ incredibly guilty regarding that point) or don't act like they're established they should (looking at you, black-bearded Skywalker).
And then, there is also the "they own the stuff, they know best" argument which, history has proven, is far from being true in many cases.
As another poster said in another thread, remember Highlander 2 and how it utterly annihilated the canon and coolness of the first movie, despite being considered canon by the franchise owners?
Remember how Alien Covenant destroys the established canon, removing the most iconic and beloved monster of the last 3 decades, the Alien Queen, and dropping a bridge on the mystery of the Space Jockeys in favor of an unlikable genius android with a god complex as the Xenomorphs' creator?
Remember the Star Wars Holiday Special for... everything?
Remember VOY: Treshold where excessive speed from the space-time continuum is guaranteed to turn you into a newt/atfish hybrid that can be cured by anti-matter?
Yeah, they're canon (except the Holiday Special anymore, thankfully), but that doesn't mean we have to accept, love this or even let the franchise owners think they did everything right.
Just because they are the minority does not neccessarily mean they are wrong and just because its put on your plate does not mean its palatable and you have to eat it.
Sometimes the majority opinion is just wrong. This isn't always the case and not everything new is bad. As I said before, I love the Kelvin Timeline films and think they represent some of the best Trek has to offer. I do not hold this opinion about Discovery because I have serious qualms about its quality of storytelling and do not just accept that CBS knows best. The grounds on which you have chosen to formulate your opinion about Discovery on this thread are appeals to popularity and authority, both of which are serious logical falacies.
Well since we're calling out fallacious arguments now, no one's opinion is "wrong". That's what makes it an opinion. A subjective view. Now if someone makes a statement that is factually contridictory to what reality gives us and is claiming that as an opinion, that would be fallacious as well.
Everyone's opinion is a valid one when concerning any Trek series(or any fiction, for that matter), but the key here is claiming that TRIBBLE is not a Star Trek series when the authorities on Star Trek ever since Gene Roddenberry passed away(which, in case you missed it is CBS) clearly present it as such is patently wrong, no matter what we say about it. They own the property, and can present the property in any way they want, and we as mere fans cannot honestly say that they do not "know best". They are the ones that decide what's best. The author of any fiction gets to decide what's best for their fiction, period.
They might not take the fiction to where fans want it to go. But that happens sometimes. And that fact is hard for raging fans to grasp, but it is a demonstrable fact of the world of fiction as a whole. Sorry.
It's disappointing that fans of the Star Trek franchise (who have complained for years that we haven't had a new Star Trek show) can't even sit down and enjoy Discovery.
I DID sit down and watch Discovery, I gave it 2 full episodes. What I saw made me want nothing to do with the series!
I wouldn't complain if the gave us a new Star Trek show. I just cannot see Discovery as Star Trek.
It might be because what you define as a "Star Trek series" is fundamentally different than what the Star Trek authorities define as a "Star Trek series". And, no offense, they're the authorities.
I agree that they're the Authorities on what gets made. I agree that my definition of a Star Trek series differs from theirs. I also agree that, if I don't like what they've done with the series, I have the right to not touch it with a 10 foot pole! I won't be touching Discovery. EVER!
I agree that they're the Authorities on what gets made. I agree that my definition of a Star Trek series differs from theirs. I also agree that, if I don't like what they've done with the series, I have the right to not touch it with a 10 foot pole! I won't be touching Discovery. EVER!
Wait, I thought Star trek discovery was part of the Kelvin timeline?
I love the show, but with the high tech look everything has, completely different Klingons, spore drive tech and Spocks formerly unknown adopted human sister as the main character it doesn't really seem to fit into the original timeline.
Its been stated numerous times it's Prime timeline, even before the show came out CBS stated it several times.
For your list
-Every Trek show has looked more advanced then the last, even ENT, which was a prequel, because our perceptions of what is high tech in the future changed year by year, so the shows change as they are made to reflect that
-Klingons aren't that different, they are just bald, and wear more ceremonial armor because the ones we see are part of a cult
-Spore Drive isn't that different from the Excelsior being used as a prototype for a transwarp drive.
-Spock had a unmentioned brother in STV as well
Not mention that as Vulcan(well technically half-Vulcan but Spock identifies more with the Vulcan culture to a point that might as well be full-blooded vulcan) Spock is very particural about some minor things, so yes it's perfectly in character for Spock to mention Burnham just like he didn't mention his half brother until it became relevant.
Wait, I thought Star trek discovery was part of the Kelvin timeline?
I love the show, but with the high tech look everything has, completely different Klingons, spore drive tech and Spocks formerly unknown adopted human sister as the main character it doesn't really seem to fit into the original timeline.
This is exactly how I feel about DIS. It just doesn't belong anywhere else but the already upgraded (and Bald Klingons as well) JJ Trek universe. It's still a great Sci-Fi (if not Kelvin Trek) show.
And the CBS defenders are just sad. There's no independent thought process in that argument that "CBS makes it, so it must be law." (Political statements are against the ToS; comments moderated out. - BMR) Just because something is, doesn't make it right and good for us. Example: Remember TNG Andorians? I try not to either, and luckily neither did ENT. The show's creators are fallible, sadly, and this is just the epitome of it. Accepting it doesn't help. It only defends poor continuity and change without a real reason and logic behind it. (And no, being cool is not a valid reason. It's lame and short-sighted.) It makes an established universe poor, diluted and incomprehensible in the long-term as we're seeing now. It may as well just go open and erase the 'prime' timeline. (Seems like that's CBS's goal now to fight against Paramount.)
Anyways. Bad interpretations of canon aside, the Walker class actually fits in the STO 25th century game. So I'll be glad to see that one. Good work on the model assets. I'll welcome the others as fitting in the with Kelvin universe, or even some other alternate one again. There's room for that with a reasoned and logical approach. Not just blind willy-nilly Whiskey Tango Foxtrot facepalm shoe ins.
I don't like the show and don't really care if these were added as they won't affect my gameplay fun and seems it isn't part of the main storyline and just something on the side.
The story itself was good, please don't take my comment as a slight on that. I enjoyed it. As for some of the others commenting in the thread... no comment.
As for Tortoth though, yeah, I can see him now having a price on his head and the almost unanimous hatred of the rest of the Klingon race.
I do wonder though, will we ever see Tortoth in game or is he destined to be "relieved of duty" off screen?
Hello. My name is iamynaught and I am an altaholic.
Oh hey, lots of new comments on the thread for the story I wrote! I wonder if people liked it!
*reads thread*
O_O
*backs away slowly*
@ambassadorkael#6946
It's not personal. Blame the controversy surrounding Discovery.
This program, though reasonably normal at times, seems to have a strong affinity to classes belonging to the Cat 2.0 program. Questerius 2.7 will break down on occasion, resulting in garbage and nonsense messages whenever it occurs. Usually a hard reboot or pulling the plug solves the problem when that happens.
As for Tortoth though, yeah, I can see him now having a price on his head and the almost unanimous hatred of the rest of the Klingon race.
I do wonder though, will we ever see Tortoth in game or is he destined to be "relieved of duty" off screen?
I'm not sure how he'd fit into the main story thread, given what we've seen in 'Scylla & Charybdis'... but I'm sure the Foundry community might be able to scratch that itch, once that feature is back online...
When I heard he was an celebrity archaeologist, I was immediately reminded of a certain Cassian lass from another MMO: Artemis Zin (shown below).
And yes, that outfit can be very closely approximated with the Dyson researcher garb.
-Every Trek show has looked more advanced then the last, even ENT, which was a prequel, because our perceptions of what is high tech in the future changed year by year, so the shows change as they are made to reflect that
And each show also explicitly validated TOS and how things looked then....to the point that they added select DS9 characters to footage from a actual TOS episode. And as for ENT....they tried to make it look like a it came before TOS, the interior sets were far starker and more spartan than any series that came after in the timeline.
As someone who plays an Orion, I want to take him prisoner then auction him off to the highest bidder! What the bidder does with him is of no concern to me, just as long as I get paid first.
And each show also explicitly validated TOS and how things looked then....to the point that they added select DS9 characters to footage from a actual TOS episode. And as for ENT....they tried to make it look like a it came before TOS, the interior sets were far starker and more spartan than any series that came after in the timeline.
Well... how many ship interiors did we see that weren't belonging to the Constitution class at the time?
Oh hey, lots of new comments on the thread for the story I wrote! I wonder if people liked it!
*reads thread*
O_O
*backs away slowly*
I liked the story. The problem is I HATE Discovery. I'm not throwing stones at you, nor I think is any one else. I'm just expressing my extreme distaste for a [REDACTED] of a [REDACTED][REDACTED]...........
CBS is not the authority on Star Trek (in the sense of "expert". as in "He's an authority on 19th century history.")
CBS does HAVE authority (the power to make decisions) over current Star Trek production because they bought the rights to the franchise, but that's a very different definition of the word authority.
Power does not equal wisdom, expertise or truth. If you buy a plot of land, you can certainly say "The Law of Gravity does not apply here." But you just make yourself look like an idiot, because even though you are the owner of that land, your assertion of its nature is demonstrably incompatible with the established reality of the universe in which it exists.
Similarly, CBS's claim that Discovery takes place in the Prime Universe in approximately the same time-frame as Pike's Enterprise is at best idiotic, and at worst deliberately mendacious. Their assertion of its nature is demonstrably incompatible with the established reality of the universe in which it is supposed to exist.
The only real "authority" of what is or is not Star Trek was the late Gene Roddenberry. He created the original series, and its first pilot. If Discovery conflicts with them, it's simply not Prime Universe Star Trek, no matter how many times the current franchise owners chant their marketing lines.
I always enjoy these little side stories that pop up on the forum. Its a nice little treat to see what other characters are doing, get a glimpse into how people who aren't badass Starfleet/KDF/RR Captains live. I hope to read many more of them in the months and years to come.
As for Discovery, I haven't watched it. I plan to soon, with an open mind. I'm generally quite easy to entertain so I expect to enjoy it. And CBS? It isn't about if "they know best." It's about the fact that they own the franchise and thus they get to say what is canon, what timeline it's set in, and all the rest of it. Right or wrong don't come into it, they have the authority to do as they please. Its our choice to watch it or not but unless you (and a whole bunch of others) do some Farscape-level bitchin', complaining won't do anything about it.
Comments
They could have gone the easy way and say "the easthetics don't fit our current views, we visually retcon the whole thing and the fans will have to deal with it!", but instead, they had the characters acknowledging it and going between "It's an older style, sir, but it checks out and the uniforms are cool" and "wow, this looks so 60s, but it's obliterating all the Empire's enemies with nothing stopping it, we're keeping it!"
It's always both funny and sad when you see that, no matter what, you'll have a ever-growing of "Stop saying everything is black and white! Let me show you by telling how your opinion is the lamest black and mine is the coolest white!".
And even if you provide several reasons you don't like something enough to support it and even if you talk about the positive stuff, you'll be attacked as a hater who hates everything/changes/different opinion/the new world/the old world, torpedoing any possible constructive debate. Which in turn makes having debates becoming less and less of a trend being replaced by a strict "you're with us or against us, even if you're just at 55% against and 45% ". You either love or like something, but if you can't like something because you think the cons outweigh the pros, you're automatically a hater, and vice-versa.
Personally, I hate Discovery, but there are things I like, but those things aren't enough compared to those I hate.
Same with the Last Jedi. I don't like, despite some good and very good (like the green part) things it and my main reason is I hate anything where the plot happens because characters act like idiots (except horror comedies where it's the point, of course. Oh boy is TLJ incredibly guilty regarding that point) or don't act like they're established they should (looking at you, black-bearded Skywalker).
And then, there is also the "they own the stuff, they know best" argument which, history has proven, is far from being true in many cases.
As another poster said in another thread, remember Highlander 2 and how it utterly annihilated the canon and coolness of the first movie, despite being considered canon by the franchise owners?
Remember how Alien Covenant destroys the established canon, removing the most iconic and beloved monster of the last 3 decades, the Alien Queen, and dropping a bridge on the mystery of the Space Jockeys in favor of an unlikable genius android with a god complex as the Xenomorphs' creator?
Remember the Star Wars Holiday Special for... everything?
Remember VOY: Treshold where excessive speed from the space-time continuum is guaranteed to turn you into a newt/atfish hybrid that can be cured by anti-matter?
Yeah, they're canon (except the Holiday Special anymore, thankfully), but that doesn't mean we have to accept, love this or even let the franchise owners think they did everything right.
Everyone's opinion is a valid one when concerning any Trek series(or any fiction, for that matter), but the key here is claiming that TRIBBLE is not a Star Trek series when the authorities on Star Trek ever since Gene Roddenberry passed away(which, in case you missed it is CBS) clearly present it as such is patently wrong, no matter what we say about it. They own the property, and can present the property in any way they want, and we as mere fans cannot honestly say that they do not "know best". They are the ones that decide what's best. The author of any fiction gets to decide what's best for their fiction, period.
They might not take the fiction to where fans want it to go. But that happens sometimes. And that fact is hard for raging fans to grasp, but it is a demonstrable fact of the world of fiction as a whole. Sorry.
Helpful Tools: Dictionary.com - Logical fallacies - Random generator - Word generator - Color tool - Extra Credits - List of common English language errors - New T6 Big booty tutorial
I DID sit down and watch Discovery, I gave it 2 full episodes. What I saw made me want nothing to do with the series!
I agree that they're the Authorities on what gets made. I agree that my definition of a Star Trek series differs from theirs. I also agree that, if I don't like what they've done with the series, I have the right to not touch it with a 10 foot pole! I won't be touching Discovery. EVER!
Helpful Tools: Dictionary.com - Logical fallacies - Random generator - Word generator - Color tool - Extra Credits - List of common English language errors - New T6 Big booty tutorial
if I stop posting it doesn't make you right it. just means I don't have enough rum to continue interacting with you.
*reads thread*
O_O
*backs away slowly*
As for Tortoth though, yeah, I can see him now having a price on his head and the almost unanimous hatred of the rest of the Klingon race.
I do wonder though, will we ever see Tortoth in game or is he destined to be "relieved of duty" off screen?
Losing faith in humanity, one person at a time.
@ambassadorkael#6946
It's not personal. Blame the controversy surrounding Discovery.
When I heard he was an celebrity archaeologist, I was immediately reminded of a certain Cassian lass from another MMO: Artemis Zin (shown below).
And yes, that outfit can be very closely approximated with the Dyson researcher garb.
And each show also explicitly validated TOS and how things looked then....to the point that they added select DS9 characters to footage from a actual TOS episode. And as for ENT....they tried to make it look like a it came before TOS, the interior sets were far starker and more spartan than any series that came after in the timeline.
My character Tsin'xing
I thought it was pretty good actually.
As someone who plays an Orion, I want to take him prisoner then auction him off to the highest bidder! What the bidder does with him is of no concern to me, just as long as I get paid first.
My character Tsin'xing
Well... how many ship interiors did we see that weren't belonging to the Constitution class at the time?
I liked the story. The problem is I HATE Discovery. I'm not throwing stones at you, nor I think is any one else. I'm just expressing my extreme distaste for a [REDACTED] of a [REDACTED][REDACTED]...........
CBS does HAVE authority (the power to make decisions) over current Star Trek production because they bought the rights to the franchise, but that's a very different definition of the word authority.
Power does not equal wisdom, expertise or truth. If you buy a plot of land, you can certainly say "The Law of Gravity does not apply here." But you just make yourself look like an idiot, because even though you are the owner of that land, your assertion of its nature is demonstrably incompatible with the established reality of the universe in which it exists.
Similarly, CBS's claim that Discovery takes place in the Prime Universe in approximately the same time-frame as Pike's Enterprise is at best idiotic, and at worst deliberately mendacious. Their assertion of its nature is demonstrably incompatible with the established reality of the universe in which it is supposed to exist.
The only real "authority" of what is or is not Star Trek was the late Gene Roddenberry. He created the original series, and its first pilot. If Discovery conflicts with them, it's simply not Prime Universe Star Trek, no matter how many times the current franchise owners chant their marketing lines.
As for Discovery, I haven't watched it. I plan to soon, with an open mind. I'm generally quite easy to entertain so I expect to enjoy it. And CBS? It isn't about if "they know best." It's about the fact that they own the franchise and thus they get to say what is canon, what timeline it's set in, and all the rest of it. Right or wrong don't come into it, they have the authority to do as they please. Its our choice to watch it or not but unless you (and a whole bunch of others) do some Farscape-level bitchin', complaining won't do anything about it.
Story was good, it's just ST:D is rather controversial...