TRIBBLE MAINTENANCE AND RELEASE NOTES - 1/16/18

coldsnapped · January 2018

Tribble will be updated to: ST.82.20180111a.2

General:

Re-Engineering:
- Removed the ability to salvage several items that were not intended to be salvageable.
- Altered the way mods are chosen during Re-Engineering such that you will no longer receive the same mod you are currently attempting to change.
  - Since this change has altered the odds of receiving certain Mods, and guarantees always getting something new with each roll, Dilithium and Salvage costs have been adjusted to account for this change:
    - Dilithium base cost (1 slot) has increased by 60% (from 500 to 800).
    - All costs for more than one mod are still based on the same formula:
      - (Base*#Slots)-(1-((#Slots-1)*0.1)) -- Salvage base cost (1 slot) has increased by 33% (from 300 to 400).
    - All costs for more than one mod are still based on the same formula: (Base*#Slots)

Systems:

All Experimental Weapons are free to upgrade to MK XII
All Experimental Weapons on ships and in reclaim stores are now obtained at MK X
- They were previously obtained at MK XII
- This resolved the issue where a player could commission ships with Experimental Weapons Slots at level 40 and be unable to use an Experimental Weapon until level 45.
Resolved an issue that could cause ground mines to detonate several times on the same target.
Resolved an issue that prevented Causal Reversion from activating the Directed Energy Flux Starship Trait.
The TR-116 can now be crafted with the [Run] modifier.
The TR-116 can now interact with Re-Engineering.
The Particle Emission Plasma Torpedo can now obtain crafting-only modifiers when initially crafted.
Resolved an issue that caused the Starfleet, Romulan, and Klingon Experimental Environmental Suits (c. 2293) to slowly drain the player’s health over time.

reemus · January 2018

Almost would say the odds on getting same mod are worth the risk at 500 dil a pop. For 60% increase per line per roll...we just walked out of the penny slots and into the dollar machines...only the payout is the same...

Unknown · January 2018

This content has been removed.

salazarraze · January 2018

800 dil per roll is more in line with what I suggested though not as high as I thought it might go. Still 800 is pretty cheap and more than generous.

frtoaster · January 2018

coldsnapped wrote: »

Altered the way mods are chosen during Re-Engineering such that you will no longer receive the same mod you are currently attempting to change.
Since this change has altered the odds of receiving certain Mods, and guarantees always getting something new with each roll, Dilithium and Salvage costs have been adjusted to account for this change:
Dilithium base cost (1 slot) has increased by 60% (from 500 to 800).

All costs for more than one mod are still based on the same formula:
(Base*#Slots)-(1-((#Slots-1)*0.1)) -- Salvage base cost (1 slot) has increased by 33% (from 300 to 400).

All costs for more than one mod are still based on the same formula: (Base*#Slots)

This could use some clarification. Does the marginal salvage cost per slot now decrease with the number of slots rolled? Previous testing by players showed that marginal salvage cost, unlike the marginal dilithium cost, remained constant. In other words, the total salvage cost increased linearly with the number of slots. See the table in this post.

https://www.reddit.com/r/sto/comments/7pf2wp/understanding_sto_the_reengineering_system_text/dsgphhp/

Startrekker wrote:

Mods Being ReRolled  Dil    Salvage
                  1    500      350
                  2    900      700
                  3  1,200    1,050
                  4  1,400    1,400
                  5  1,500    1,750

Furthermore, the formula you gave does not match the numbers given in the previous table for the dilithium cost. The actual formula seems to be

Total dilithium cost = 100 * (6*#Slots - #Slots*(#Slots+1)/2)

This formula matches the old numbers. I don't know what the new numbers are or how the formula you gave relates to them.

coldsnapped wrote: »

Resolved an issue that could cause ground mines to detonate several times on the same target.

Wow, I reported this bug in August 2014.

Holodeck ticket 2,638,391: Mines hit twice when triggered at the moment of activation

Have you guys tested how this affects the effectiveness of mines? In my opinion, the biggest problem with mines is the long delay between spawning and arming.

Holodeck ticket 2,853,430: Delay of 6.5 seconds not mentioned in descriptions of Chroniton Mine Barrier

When I reported this delay in October 2014, the mines took 6.5 seconds to arm, and the delay was not documented anywhere in the game. Now, Chroniton Mine Barrier says that the mines take 4 seconds to arm. I haven't retested Chroniton Mine Barrier to see if the delay is actually 4 seconds.

turbomagnus · January 2018

coldsnapped wrote: »

Systems:

All Experimental Weapons are free to upgrade to MK XII

All Experimental Weapons on ships and in reclaim stores are now obtained at MK X
They were previously obtained at MK XII

This resolved the issue where a player could commission ships with Experimental Weapons Slots at level 40 and be unable to use an Experimental Weapon until level 45.

That was actually a glitch? Huh. I had - mistakenly, it seems - assumed that it was simply so that the player got something at Level 45 to make the promotion semi-noteworthy... (Ship at 40, then effectively getting to 'refit' or 'upgrade' it, whatever term one wishes, with an Experimental Weapon at 45.) Not sure if I feel better or worse about it now knowing otherwise...

sovereign2727 · January 2018

Resolved an issue that prevented Causal Reversion from activating the Directed Energy Flux Starship Trait.

Thanks a lot!

disqord · January 2018

My god, it's like you're actually encouraging people to do nothing with their lives but mine dilithium. What was wrong with the idea of keeping the old prices AND letting us get more favourable rerolls?

I mean seriously, 1.6x higher cost for the subtracted 10% chance to get the same mod twice IN A ROW. Fantastic. Now, instead of constantly getting Pha -> Pha -> Pha, I have been graced with the supreme favor of the gods to instead roll through Pha -> Pla -> Pha.

Words of advice? Don't listen to the people who don't play the game. You'll do much better for yourselves and the community when you adopt that life changing strategy.

sunfrancks · January 2018

Cool, not being able to get the same mod you're changing from, should have been there from the start.the, but the Dilthium hike means I'll skip this system just like I did with crafting...

It is almost like Cryptic enjoys sabotaging their own work!

nishkacm · January 2018

Altered the way mods are chosen during Re-Engineering such that you will no longer receive the same mod you are currently attempting to change.

I'm glad this is fixed, but it sounds like a bug from the start or at the very least bad design. I don't understand why the dilithium cost needs to increase.

More importantly though; people are using the system since they want a specific mod. For example, I have a torpedo with a CrtH mod on it and I want a CrtD mod, is the following situation possible?
CrtH randomizes to DMG
DMG can randomize back to CrtH

Or is it the following scenario:
CrtH randomizes to DMG
DMG randomizes to something other than CrtH or DMG.

As I wrote with a report in the previous notes, I much rather see you increasing the original cost (500 dil) by 5x or even by 10x if it means a guaranteed mod pick. There are so many random elements in the game that I'm getting tired with having to deal with even more RNG. I hope you'll reconsider the entire slot machine philosophy and give us the mods that we're after. It'd make for a much friendlier design.

sovereign2727 · January 2018

Okay don't overreact guys. Yes the 800 is a bit high of a spike but this system is still significantly cheaper than buying a weapon for 200M, the repetitive Mk II omega upgrade method or gilding gear at XIV and hope to get the right mod. While I wonder changing mod options from 25/25/25/25 to 33/33/33 justifies a 60% increase? Setting it to 600 seems more reasonable given that we can still roll the old mod once on another. But this would be just a nice touch in favor of the playerbase. I won't cry at the 800 and I am no dilithium whale by any means. But allowing me to get perfect mods for less than 20k dil on a weapon is a dream come true so thanks! Yet consider this suggestion.

ltminns · January 2018

So dropping one Mod from the list of potential new Mods increases the cost by 60%. That means that there were less than two Mods possible to begin with.

captainnei · January 2018

disqord#9557 wrote: »

My god, it's like you're actually encouraging people to do nothing with their lives but mine dilithium. What was wrong with the idea of keeping the old prices AND letting us get more favourable rerolls?

I mean seriously, 1.6x higher cost for the subtracted 10% chance to get the same mod twice IN A ROW. Fantastic. Now, instead of constantly getting Pha -> Pha -> Pha, I have been graced with the supreme favor of the gods to instead roll through Pha -> Pla -> Pha.

Words of advice? Don't listen to the people who don't play the game. You'll do much better for yourselves and the community when you adopt that life changing strategy.

This. I understand your logic (I even agree to it), sure better odds, higher cost, but 60% is too steep.

nishkacm wrote: »

More importantly though; people are using the system since they want a specific mod. For example, I have a torpedo with a CrtH mod on it and I want a CrtD mod, is the following situation possible?
CrtH randomizes to DMG
DMG can randomize back to CrtH

This is how it works. So now instead of an acceptable gamble, where we could have the RNG troll us with as many "something you don't want > back to original > off to something else you don't want", we are actually on the dil waster level.

I'm no math wiz, but wouldn't 600-650 make more sense?

ltminns · January 2018

I told people to never tell them things are too cheap. You will not be happy with the results.

disqord · January 2018

There is absolutely no reason that the prices should be hiked so high (Or even at all) just to remove ONE mod from the list AT A TIME. But just to explain to some of the people who seem to enjoy the thought of the new system, I'll give an example:

Say you're rerolling on an impulse engine. You want only speed mods, but there's one last turn mod stuck on it. You attempt to reroll with the old system:
500 dilithium per single slot reroll.
Turn -> Turn -> Turn ->Speed
Congratulations! You did it! You got the last speed mod that you wanted so very very much. But you also ran into the turn mod 2 times before you got there. That entire endeavor ended up having you spend 2000 dilithium.

Now, say you're rerolling that same engine, hoping for the same result:
800 dilithium per single slot reroll
Turn -> Full -> Turn -> Speed
You did it again! But you may have noticed something. Despite the fact that you no longer had the chance to reroll into the same mod, you ended up hitting other undesirable mods in the process. You took the same amount of rerolls to reach the speed mod, but you spent an extra 1200 dilithium!

Now, allow me to clarify my stance. I think that the change in pricing is absolutely RIDICULOUS, when generally you'll have a 5% higher chance of getting the desired mod in any reroll. We shouldn't have been able to roll into duplicate mods from the start, and as such it is no excuse for jacking the price up an incredible degree.

grimlyone · January 2018

Systems:
Resolved an issue that could cause ground mines to detonate several times on the same target.

Are you serious? That is the last way engineers can deal any sort of decent, not even respectable, damage on ground. You changed the transphasic bomb to have an animation that made it useless long, long ago, making engineers do less damage. Then, the timer for the mines was increased. And damage lowered. And now this?

Do people that make these "fixes" even know what they're fixing? Hell, do they even play the game?

Because the only thing this fixes is if you desire to have even more of Tac Trek Online.

Is there a class change ability in the works? Or are you just gonna remove engineers and scis? Because at this point, it wouldn't make much difference.

Moronic. There is no other word for it. But what can one expect...

dragonhef01 · January 2018

Sounds like some @ Cryptic got Snow Blindness.

sthe91 · January 2018

grimlyone wrote: »

Systems:
Resolved an issue that could cause ground mines to detonate several times on the same target.

Are you serious? That is the last way engineers can deal any sort of decent, not even respectable, damage on ground. You changed the transphasic bomb to have an animation that made it useless long, long ago, making engineers do less damage. Then, the timer for the mines was increased. And damage lowered. And now this?

Do people that make these "fixes" even know what they're fixing? Hell, do they even play the game?

Because the only thing this fixes is if you desire to have even more of Tac Trek Online.

Is there a class change ability in the works? Or are you just gonna remove engineers and scis? Because at this point, it wouldn't make much difference.

Moronic. There is no other word for it. But what can one expect...

Read frtoaster's post. Thanks.

benalexander · January 2018

disqord#9557 wrote: »

I mean seriously, 1.6x higher cost for the subtracted 10% chance to get the same mod twice IN A ROW. Fantastic. [...]

sovereign2727 wrote: »

While I wonder changing mod options from 25/25/25/25 to 33/33/33 justifies a 60% increase?

I did a few tests and as it looks, the 60% dilithium const increase listed in the patchnotes does not translate to a 60% increase in overall costs. I tested it out for an epic Mk XIV Aniproton Array (normal mods are acc, crth, crtd and dmg)

1 normal
old: 4 rolls, 2000 Dili, 1400 salvage
new: 3 rolls, 2400 Dili, 1200 salvage

2 normal
old: 5,7 rolls, 3770 dilithium, 2800 salvage
new: 4.2 rolls, 4500 dilithium, 2400 salvage

3 normal
old: 6,8 rolls, 5300 dilithium, 4200 salvage
new: 5 rolls, 6340 dilithium, 3600 salvage

4 normal
old: 7,7 rolls, 6620 dilithium, 6500 salvage
new: 5,6 rolls, 7870 dilithium, 4800 salvage

1 epic
old: 10 rolls, 5000 dilithium, 3510 salvage
new: 9 rolls, 7200 dilithium, 3600 salvage

1 normal + 1 epic
old: 10,9 rolls, 6700 dilithium, 4900 salvage
new: 9,5 rolls, 9240 dilithium, 4800 salvage

2 normal + 1 epic
old: 11,6 rolls, 8160 dilithium, 6300 salvage
new: 9,9 rolls, 10900 dilithium, 6000 salvage

3 normal + 1 epic
old: 12,1 rolls, 9400 dilithium, 7700 salvage
new: 10,2 rolls, 12370 dilithium, 7200 salvage

4 normal + 1 epic
old: 12.5 rolls, 10400 dilithium, 9100 salvage
new: 10,5 rolls, 13500 dilithium, 8400 salvage

As you can see, the price increase in most cases is not 60%. For changes in normal mods, the increase is aboout 20%. Once an epic mod comes into play, it is more like 30 to 40%. Generally speaking, the more possible mods there are, the higher the prce increase by this patch will be. It is most definatly a price increase - the higher chances aren't canceled out by higher chances- but IMHO it is not as bad as it looks like - although I am still not a fan of chance-bases-slot-mashine-looking crafting systems. Salvage cost has even gone down (better chances canceled out higher prices). The trend seems to be to reduce the average number of necessary re-rolls, but increase the prices for each.

Please note that i am not a mathematician. These are supposed to be average values from a simulated 1 million rolles for each case. Your results may differ, especially if you only reengineers a few items.

reemus · January 2018

disqord#9557 wrote: »

My god, it's like you're actually encouraging people to do nothing with their lives but mine dilithium. What was wrong with the idea of keeping the old prices AND letting us get more favourable rerolls?

I mean seriously, 1.6x higher cost for the subtracted 10% chance to get the same mod twice IN A ROW. Fantastic. Now, instead of constantly getting Pha -> Pha -> Pha, I have been graced with the supreme favor of the gods to instead roll through Pha -> Pla -> Pha.

Words of advice? Don't listen to the people who don't play the game. You'll do much better for yourselves and the community when you adopt that life changing strategy.

To add another system with gambling away your dil after all the flak they get over the current systems and odds....shows that they are either desperate or there aren't enough unwilling-to-play-the-gamble players to hurt them.

This system is actually great IMO... but it would be much more worth it if it unlocked all stats for a price...or even better...a roll that can boost proc %, dmg, etc. for weapons.

Bottom line is to get you to the C-Store buying Zen... The more they can offer to get you to drain that dil the better. 800 a roll basically makes up for any Phoenix upgrade you got over on using your dil... I am just hoping there aren't tweaks to the crafting stats to get you to re-roll your stuff..

reemus · January 2018

So...when are Doff missions going to include salvage?

frtoaster · January 2018

There was an unannounced Tribble patch tonight of around 200 to 300 MB. The current Tribble build is

Version: ST.82.20180111a.3
SVN build number: 218229
Tribble patch date: 01/17/2018

Also, force-verify is still broken.

Holodeck ticket 4,626,730: "Force verify" no longer works

frtoaster · January 2018

coldsnapped wrote: »

Altered the way mods are chosen during Re-Engineering such that you will no longer receive the same mod you are currently attempting to change.
Since this change has altered the odds of receiving certain Mods, and guarantees always getting something new with each roll, Dilithium and Salvage costs have been adjusted to account for this change:
Dilithium base cost (1 slot) has increased by 60% (from 500 to 800).

All costs for more than one mod are still based on the same formula:
(Base*#Slots)-(1-((#Slots-1)*0.1)) -- Salvage base cost (1 slot) has increased by 33% (from 300 to 400).

All costs for more than one mod are still based on the same formula: (Base*#Slots)

OK, I've figured out how to debug the patch notes. First of all, you have a formatting error: several bullet points are in the wrong place.

coldsnapped wrote: »

Altered the way mods are chosen during Re-Engineering such that you will no longer receive the same mod you are currently attempting to change.
Since this change has altered the odds of receiving certain Mods, and guarantees always getting something new with each roll, Dilithium and Salvage costs have been adjusted to account for this change:
Dilithium base cost (1 slot) has increased by 60% (from 500 to 800).
All costs for more than one mod are still based on the same formula:
(Base*#Slots)-(1-((#Slots-1)*0.1))

Salvage base cost (1 slot) has increased by 33% (from 300 to 400).
All costs for more than one mod are still based on the same formula: (Base*#Slots)

I've reformatted the relevant portion of the text in red. This makes it clear that the formula for the salvage cost is

SalvageCost = Base*#Slots

Second, the formula you gave for the dilithium cost is wrong: one of the minus signs should be a multiplication sign. What you probably intended to write was

DilCost = (Base*#Slots)*(1-((#Slots-1)*0.1))

Vanilla, don't eat this post.

scrooge69 · January 2018

RNG was a bad idea in the 1st place

PLAYERS HATE RNG

remember when u took away RNG det drops fro mSTFs replacing em with the reputation system? THAT was nice

nightken · January 2018

scrooge69 wrote: »

RNG was a bad idea in the 1st place

PLAYERS HATE RNG

remember when u took away RNG det drops fro mSTFs replacing em with the reputation system? THAT was nice

and some players have been trying to get the rng drops back ever since. so we do give mixed messages about rng.

asuran14 · January 2018

Rang being hated by players is understandable, but it also gave more reason to do other content, or to do certain activities. It is the severity, and the enjoyment of the system that the rang is apart of, when done well such things can keep content that would otherwise be vacant populated. Even the idea of unique drops in the stfs losing that appeal of doing the content as the player acquires the drops, could be improved on by having periodic updates to the unique drops. Hell you could do it less that it is linked to specific stfs, and more to specific groups of stfs that have a similar completion time.

leemwatson · January 2018

nightken wrote: »

scrooge69 wrote: »

RNG was a bad idea in the 1st place

PLAYERS HATE RNG

remember when u took away RNG det drops fro mSTFs replacing em with the reputation system? THAT was nice

and some players have been trying to get the rng drops back ever since. so we do give mixed messages about rng.

I personally hate the ease at which we can now acquire what was elite items. I much preferred the old Borg Salvage RNG drops. Would it keep people in queues....to a point yes, but then those that want things yesterday would probably be a tad upset. Unfortunately, not everyone will be happy at any one time.

TRIBBLE MAINTENANCE AND RELEASE NOTES - 1/16/18

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