Re-engineering idea = Good idea to get salvage to use for a mod and all..
But when a slot machine mechanic comes in, it kinda goes to the same thing of what to guess when you upgrade an item..So basically not much of a difference between your normal upgrade where you have no clue of what mod you'd get and this re-roll mechanic where again you wouldnt know what you may or may not get..It IMO looks like an engineering form of DABO....Well no thank you I might just pass and go along my way..
Oh dear god was my initial reaction to the slot machine visual for rerolling. Mainly because it highlights how reliant on RNG it'll be.
A positive is that by the looks of things you can lock down the mods you want. Question here is will that lock be per roll and require resources to maintain after each spin?
Still on the fence about upgrading any of my stuff though. I very rarely did before due to the dil costs involved and cryptics love of stacking decks to push folk to spend more than is needed for stuff they want. If it's another dil sink then I'll likely pass as the game doesnt really need more of them.
It'll be interesting to see what knock on effect salvaging has on the exchange price gougers. More folk salvaging means less ec being made to spent filling their already fat wallets. I can see the gougers already looking out for cheaper stuff with "bad" rolls to buy and resell once this system goes live.
Huh...it does look like a slot machine! LOL! Well, at least, they are being up front about it. BUT.... just found out: no crafted mods. So, now, I will probably not use it at all.
"Spend your life doing strange things with weird people." -- UNK
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
I suggest making it available just for mission reward or reputation items.
This becoming available for non-bound-to-character/account items will crash the market and the prices on items and will discourage users from crafting cheap until they hit some mods and would just pull the roulette at higher prices to the end of the spectrum with alot of "acc" mods raining from all over the place to flap wallets to desperation.
Oh dear god was my initial reaction to the slot machine visual for rerolling. Mainly because it highlights how reliant on RNG it'll be.
A positive is that by the looks of things you can lock down the mods you want. Question here is will that lock be per roll and require resources to maintain after each spin?
Having played with it a little I can answer this. The cost is for each slot that you unlock and spin.
For instance you have an epic weapon with 5 slots. Unlocking 3 slots will cost you 1200 dil plus salvage points (didn't keep track of that, sorry) per spin. If after the first spin you lock one of the three, the cost drops to 900 dil plus salvage points per spin for the remaining two. Locking another after that spin leaves you with one slot unlocked, and the cost for a spin drops to 500 dil plus salvage points.
Just remember the cost I'm quoting is test purposes, and could go up or down as testing continues.
Although as you point out it is for testing so will more than likely go up in order to nudge folk into the dil exchange and buying zen, such is the way of things in f2p models.
Other thing I'm curious about is at what point do the mod slots unlock. The gif shows a top end weapon so not surprising it would have all 5 to mess about with but will a rare only have 3 slots and UR 4.
Having rarely bothered upgrading stuff anyway, are the ones listed as not being able to get tweaked by the new system simply because they will always end up the same as they get upgraded? Just stating that they can't without a reason given is a niggly detail.
If Cryptic has decent, or even good, costs of dilithium & energy credits for this re-engineering slot-machine RNG on the Tribble server remember that is Cryptic's intent of generating positive feedback & word of mouth for wider player acceptance.
Of course what happens on Tribble server never means it will be that way on the real Holodeck server.
Cryptic can play that statistical game with any in game mechanics like this re-engineering, which is just another RNG sink, for better or worse & even odds on lock boxes & packs.
As a concept, in general, I like it. But I have some issues with some of the details.
First, randomization as a skill. I have a real problem with the concept that an engineer, with years of training and experience, has no idea what his end design will be capable of doing once built. He doesn't know what components will boost damage or increase accuracy or any other effect. I work in an engineering firm, I do know that in the real world, engineers are methodical people, who know what every piece of gear will do to the product as a whole. In fact they don't even add a piece of equipment unless they have a clear understand on how it works, what it does and how it will effect the systems they have it connected to it. So randomizing engineering results is so illogical to me that I can't bring myself to use it.
Secondly, Dilithium being required to used to EVERY freaking thing is so stupid. You already limit how much dilithium we can get, but the number of processes and systems that need dilithium keep increasing without the amount of dilithium we get day to day increasing too. And the number of "currencies" that exist have increased too. There are even some currencies that are underutilized. GPL is a very big one in this category. I think this would be better received if GPL was in place of Dilithium as a currency. GPL need a better use of it, and this is good way that makes a lot of sense and keeps it within the logic of the universe and setting as a whole.
Sorry if this has been asked/commented on already, but I just want to say that I hope that the [shpen] modifier on ground weapons won't be included in this.
Being able to get [shpen]*4 modifiers on all types of weapons would break ground combat I think.
[4:46] [Combat {self}] Your Haymaker deals 23337 (9049) Physical Damage(Critical) to Spawnmother
Good news, everyone. One guy from the german community has tested, how much it costs! But it's german and I'm to lazy to translate it.
tl;dr: it doesn't cost as much as it looks like. and he was to lazy to calculate and made a programm that calculated it for him.
have fun
Also, Freunde der Nacht, ich war mal auf Tribble und habe ein wenig mit dem neuen Modifizierungssystem herumgespielt, um einen Überblick über Kosten und Chancen des neuen Systems zu bekommen.
Frage 1: Was passiert mit den Crafting-Mod swie [Pen]?
Die kann man im Modifizierungsmenü nicht unlocken, d.h. Sie können nicht neu ausgewürfelt werden. Vorteil: Euren [Pen] löscht ihr nicht aus versehen, andererseits wird man auch keinen [Snare] einer sonst guten Waffe los.
Frage 2: Wie hoch ist die Chance, den gewünschten Mod zu bekommen?
Eine goldene / epische Waffe hat insgesamt 5 Modifikatoren. Vier davon sind „normal“ also entweder [Acc], [Dmg], [CrtD] oder [CrtH].
Erstmal zu den normalen Mods: Würfelt man einen einzelnen Mod neu aus, hat man in der Theorie eine 25% Chance, den gewünschten neuen zu bekommen. Theoretisch - wenn auch extrem unwahrscheinlich - könntet ihr bis ans Ende eures Lebens Pech haben. Das Modifizierungssystem verfügt über keine „Abbruchbedingung“ wie das Craftingssystem mit seiner 100% Upgradechance. Im Schnitt wird man 4 Würfe benötigen, um einen einzelnen Mod zum Gewünschten zu ändern.
Frage 3: Wie ist das mit den neuen epischen Mods?
Genau verifizieren konnte ich es nicht, aber ich vermute alle Kombinationen sind möglich. Bestätigen konnte ich das Vorhandensein aller Kombinationen außer [CrtH2] und [Dm2] – dann sind mir die Altmaterialien ausgegangen. [CrtH2] sieht man aber im GIF des Blogs. Wenn alle da sind, liegt die Chance auf den gewünschten Mod also bei 10%, man braucht im Schnitt 10 Versuche, um ihn zu bekommen. Unter der Haube scheinen, wenn ich Borticus auf reddit richtig verstanden habe, auch noch einige Schikanen mit zusätzlichen, unsichtbaren DMG-Modifikatoren bei diesen epischen Mods zu existieren, was z.B. den neuen [Ac/Dm] effectiv zu einem Acc-Dmg-Dmg macht. In meinen Rechnungen gehe ich davon aus, dass alle 10 Varianten existieren.
Frage 4: Wie häufig muss mal würfeln, damit mal letztendlich alle Mods richtig hat?
Erst wollte ich das ausrechnen, aber da gibt es so ein Schul-Trauma mit Stochastik, ich habe also mal ein kleines Programm geschrieben, dass für mich jeweils eine Millionen Mal würfelt. Ja, so sehr hasse ich Stochastik. Die Ergebnisse, was das neu-Auswürfeln von Mods im Durchschnitt in etwa kosten wird:
Ein normaler: 4 Würfe, 2000 Dilithium, 1400 Altmaterialien
Zwei normale: 5,7 Würfe, 3770 Dilithium, 2800 Altmaterialien
Drei normale: 6,8 Würfe, 5300 Dilithium, 4200 Altmaterialien
Vier normale: 7,7 Würfe, 6620 Dilithium, 6500 Altmaterialien
Nur der epische: 10 Würfe, 5000 Dilithium, 3510 Altmaterialien
Ein normaler + der epische: 10,9 Würfe, 6700 Dilithium, 4900 Altmaterialien
Zwei normale + der epische: 11,6 Würfe, 8160 Dilithium, 6300 Altmaterialien
Drei normale + der epische: 12,1 Würfe, 9400 Dilithium, 7700 Altmaterialien
Vier normale + der epische (aka alle): 12.5 Würfe, 10400 Dilithium, 9100 Altmaterialien
(Getestet an einer Antiprotonenstrahlenbank Mk XII gold - für mehr hatte ich echt keinen Nerv mehr)
Für realistisch halte ich eher ein Szenario wie (Zwei normale + der epische), die meisten von uns werden schon halbwegs brauchbare Waffen haben.
Alles in allem halten sich die Preise mMn wirklich in Grenzen - vorausgesetzt natürlich ich habe mich nicht verrechnet und sie bleiben so wie im Moment auf Tribble, das ist ja alles Work in Progress. Wesentlich teurer als Upgraden ist es nicht, auch wenn gerade der epische Mod echt ins Geld geht. Wohlgemerkt, das sind alles Durchschnittswerte, ihr könntet echt Pech haben oder schon beim ersten Versuch den Jackpot knacken.
Frage 5: Sind die Chancen für die Mods gleich verteilt, also CrtD genauso wahrscheinlich wie Acc?
Keine Ahnung, ich vermute schon, darauf basieren jedenfalls meine Rechnungen. Testen konnte ich es leider nicht, denn für verlässliche Werte müsste man hunderte Male würfeln; und während man sich auf Tribble Dili ohne Ende anfordern kann, sieht das bei Salvage afaik anders aus, die müsste man sich ergrinden. Und ich verbringe nicht (nochmal) Stunden in Japori.
Frage 6: Was kostet der Spaß?
Der Blog ist da entweder missverständlich, das System auf Tribble funktioniert nicht richtig oder zwischenzeitlich wurde was geändert. Ich kann euch nur schildern, wie es aktuell auf dem Testserver aussieht:
Der Blog sagt, je mehr Mods man würfelt, umso günstiger wird es.
Borticus hat schon bestätigt, dass es zwar pro neu gewürfeltem Slot teurer wird, aber der Preis steigt nicht proportional. Das heißt, das Würfeln pro Slot wird günstiger, je mehr man gleichzeitig würfelt.
Je nach Anzahl der gewürfelten Mods werden folgende Dili-Kosten fällig: 500, 900, 1200, 1400, 1500.
Bei Altmaterialien / Salvage geht das genauso: 350, 700, 1050, 1400, 1750.
Der Blog deutet auch an, es könnte pro Würfel-Durchgang teurer werden – davon konnte ich nichts sehen. Auch nach mehreren Durchgängen blieben die Preise bei den oben genannten Zahlen.
Frage 7: Wie viele Altmaterialien bekommt mal für sein Loot?
Das scheint mir maßgeblich von der Qualität und vom Mark des Items abzuhängen. Eine lila Mk 12 Konsole brachte 466 Salvage, ein weißer mk 12 Antrieb nur 117, blaue mk 12 Waffen 132 und ein blauer mk 13 Kitrahmen 292. eine lila Mk 11 Konsole 373.
In Anbetracht der Preise beim Modifizieren denke ich, man bekommt das relativ schnell zusammen. Jetzt lohnt es sich wenigstens, die ganzen weißen Loot-Dinger einzusammeln.
Frage 8: Was ist die optimale Strategie beim Auswürfeln?
Da man bei jedem Mod einzeln entscheiden kann, ob er gewürfelt werden soll, versteht es sich von selbst, nur die Mods zu „unlocken“, die einem nicht gefallen – sowas wie CrtH. Gute Mods wie CrtD unlockt man also am besten gar nicht und lässt sie beim alten. Nicht einen Mod nach dem anderen würfeln, sondern alle, die einem nicht passen, schon beim ersten Durchgang neu würfeln lassen, Sobald einer gefällt, würfelt man nur mehr auf die Verbliebenden.
Fazit:
Ich hätte es mir schlimmer vorgestellt. Derartiges RNG in Craftingsystemen ist für mich immer noch eine Unschönheit, die Verboten gehört, aber hier hält es sich zumindest im Moment in Grenzen. Gute Waffen werden im Vergleich zu vorher deutlich einfacher zu erhalten sein. Wer das bisherige Crafting System zu teuer findet, der wird auch hier wneig Freude haben. Für alle anderen scheint es sich kostenmäßig im Bereich eines Upgrades zu bewegen.
Gruß
benalexander
* Alle Angaben sind natürlich ohne Gewähr. Zu Risiken und Nebenwirkungen fragen Sie Ihren Arzt oder Apotheker.
Good news, everyone. One guy from the german community has tested, how much it costs! But it's german and I'm to lazy to translate it.
tl;dr: it doesn't cost as much as it looks like. and he was to lazy to calculate and made a programm that calculated it for him.
have fun
So, friends of the night, I've been to Tribble and played around with the new modification system to get an idea of the cost and benefits of the new system.
Question 1: What happens to the crafting mod swie [Pen]?
You can not lock them in the modification menu, i. They can not be re-diced. Advantage: You will not delete your [Pen], but on the other hand you will not get rid of [Snare] an otherwise good weapon.
Question 2: What is the chance to get the desired mod?
A golden / epic weapon has a total of 5 modifiers. Four of them are "normal" so either [Acc], [Dmg], [CrtD] or [CrtH].
First to the normal mods: If you roll out a single mod, you have in theory a 25% chance to get the new one you want. Theoretically - albeit extremely unlikely - you could be unlucky until the end of your life. The modification system has no "kill condition" like the crafting system with its 100% upgrade chance. On average, you will need 4 throws to change a single mod to the desired one.
Question 3: What about the new epic mods?
I could not verify it exactly, but I suspect all combinations are possible. I could confirm the presence of all combinations except [CrtH2] and [Dm2] - then I ran out of used materials. [CrtH2] but you can see in the GIF of the blog. If all are there, the chance of the desired Mod is 10%, it takes an average of 10 attempts to get it. Under the hood, if I understood Borticus on reddit correctly, there still seems to be some harassment with additional, invisible DMG modifiers to these epic mods, e.g. Effectively make the new [Ac / Dm] an Acc-Dmg-Dmg. In my calculations, I assume that all 10 variants exist.
Question 4: How often do you have to roll the dice, so that finally all mods are right?
First I wanted to figure this out, but there is such a school trauma with stochastics, so I've written a little program that dices for me a million times each time. Yes, that's how much I hate stochastics. The results of what the mod-re-dicing of mods will cost in average:
A normal one: 4 litters, 2000 dilithium, 1400 used materials
Two normal: 5.7 throws, 3770 dilithium, 2800 used materials
Three normal: 6.8 litters, 5300 dilithium, 4200 used materials
Four normal: 7.7 litters, 6620 dilithium, 6500 used materials
Only the epic: 10 litters, 5000 dilithium, 3510 waste materials
A normal + the epic: 10.9 litters, 6700 dilithium, 4900 waste materials
Two normal + the epic: 11.6 litters, 8160 dilithium, 6300 scrap materials
Three normal + the epic: 12.1 litters, 9400 dilithium, 7700 waste materials
Four normal + the epic (aka all): 12.5 litters, 10400 dilithium, 9100 waste materials
(Tested on an antiproton beam bank Mk XII gold - for more I had really no nerve anymore)
Realistically, I tend to think of a scenario like (two normal + epic), most of us will already have reasonably usable weapons.
All in all, the prices are really limited in mMn - provided of course I have not miscalculated and they remain as at the moment on Tribble, that's all work in progress. Much more expensive than upgrading is not, even if just the epic mod really goes into the money. Mind you, these are all averages, you could be really unlucky or crack the jackpot on the first try.
Question 5: Are the chances for the mods evenly distributed, so CrtD as likely as Acc?
No idea, I suppose that's what my bills are based on. I could not test it unfortunately, because for reliable values one would have to throw hundreds of times; and while you can claim Tribble Dili without end, salvage afaik looks different, you would have to give it a try. And I do not spend (again) hours in Japori.
Question 6: How much is the fun?
The blog is either misleading, the system on Tribble does not work properly or in the meantime something has changed. I can only tell you what it currently looks like on the test server:
The blog says, the more mods you roll, the cheaper it gets.
Borticus has already confirmed that it will be more expensive per newly rolled slot, but the price does not increase proportionally. In other words, the more you roll at the same time, the cheaper it is to roll per slot.
Depending on the number of diced mods the following Dili costs are due: 500, 900, 1200, 1400, 1500.
The same applies to used materials / salvage: 350, 700, 1050, 1400, 1750.
The blog also suggests it could be more expensive per dice pass - I could not see anything of that. Even after several rounds, the prices remained at the above figures.
Question 7: How many used materials do you get for your loot?
That seems to depend largely on the quality and the mark of the item. A purple Mk 12 console brought 466 salvage, a white mk 12 drive only 117, blue mk 12 weapons 132 and a blue mk 13 kit frame 292. a purple mk 11 console 373.
Considering the prices when modifying, I think you get that relatively quickly together. At least it's worth it to collect all the white loot things.
Question 8: What is the optimal strategy for ripping?
Since you can decide individually with each mod, whether he should be rolled, it goes without saying, only the mods to "unblock" that you do not like - something like CrtH. So good mods like CrtD are best not unlocked and leave them with the old ones. Do not roll one mod after another, but let anyone who does not fit you roll the dice again the first time you hit them. As soon as you like one, you only roll the dice on those who are left behind.
Conclusion:
I would have thought it worse. Such RNG in crafting systems is still an ugliness to me that belongs to prohibitions, but here it is at least for the time being limited. Good weapons will be much easier to get compared to before. If you find the previous crafting system too expensive, you will have a lot of fun here as well. For all others, it seems to be moving in the area of an upgrade.
greeting
benalexander
* All information is of course without guarantee. For risks and side effects ask your doctor or pharmacist.
Put a limit on stacked mods so people have to pick something other than critD.
Agree on this.
I refuse to stack consoles because it doesn't feel right to do so but have always thought that they should have had a limit of 1 or 2 of each type of fancy consoles from the very start. Very unlikely to happen now as console stacking is a bread and butter thing for the dps builds.
It's one of the things that should have been done with the revamp but they avoided a shitstorm of galactic proportions by not doing so.
I remember when the devs said we had too many currencies. People are already skipping over item pick ups because it interrupts their dps. We don't need more reason or inconvenience holding new players back from playing the game or getting rewarded. Please just remove salvage and replace it with cheap crafting materials. This system should have been a part of revamped crafting from the start but now we're being asked to gamble, AGAIN.
I agree. Adding yet another currency, even if it is being called something else, really seems strange at this point. And by the looks of it, it's still a gamble that we'll get the mods we want.
Locking in mods we already have on the item, great. Playing Russian Roulette on the hope of getting a good mod instead of simply picking the mod we want, even if it would cost a bit more, I think I'll pass. At least for now.
It does sound like the system isn't locked in just yet so things can change, hopefully for the better.
Why introducing another currency and not just work with the current system to make it LESS random. This introduces more GRINDING and waste of time. Remove the randomness and remove the currency and it's fixed.
YES. I rather HAVE Pet tabs than this feature.
They are just playing with your minds into something that was already broken by introducing MORE grind and another currency. What a waste of time IMO.
Like the re-engineering so far just one gripe. Some reward items cannot be salvaged please change this. I try and build faction canon ships I.E. Feds get Phasers, Klingons get disruptors etc. so some missons only give items non canon to the toon but can't salvage them...
I hope I'm incorrect, but this potentially looks like just more of the same random/gamble to eat up resources once again without the desired result but with a slightly different window dressing. The marketing for it, Cryptic, will say it is here to help players get the mods they want. If that was the case the whole crafting system should had been introduced with this component. I'm hopeful that Cryptic is actually trying a method to make it easier & more fun for players, but just because borticuscryptic says so doesn't make it true it makes it hype.
It is perfect try it on Tribble far less random then the crafting buffs. Got DmgX4 on some Fleet epics super easy something impossible other wise.
1) Why did the team opt to go with a random system instead of say; using craftable/lockbox/reputation mod "tokens/componants" to replace a mod?
To be honest, there were way too many considerations that went into this decision to allow me to provide a simple answer. The simplest is to list just a few: Long-term economic impact, Item desirability, Reward itemization, and much more.
"Long-term economic impact" could mean financial impact on the company or impact on the in-game economy. If they believe that random rewards make them more money, I wish they would just come right out and say that. But whether they explicitly say it or not, all the random rewards in the game are basically telling me, "We don't want you as a customer."
Which is why I decided not to life-sub...any mention from a company about "long term econmics" to the paying customer is a bad sign....
No one asked for this, no one wants this. Please reconsider.
It's not ideal since we can't specifically choose the mods we want but at least with this, items with a good base can be reworked into what they want instead of potentially becoming vendor trash as it is right now. It just might get expensive doing it though.
And that's the whole point....expensive. Same gamble...different game.
You can count on tweaks, probably increasing costs.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
We saw the same in Elite: Dangerous with the Engineers 'expansion'. Also a RNG system, which to me signifies a lack of imagination in developers.
What I prefer is a system like the reputation stuff. You want the, say, Lukari space set or ground set? You slot the project and fill it with money, dilithium, etc. You see a bar go up as you pour resources in. That way you can work towards a clearly visible result. That is rewarding, because it triggers the pleasure center of the brain.
RNG, gambling gives a thrill as well, but is mostly followed by disappointment. A developer should avoid that...
The system as they now show isn't bad in the way you can unlock mods. And pick what to change on an item. But I would rather see a bar to fill so that you can work towards a goal. You can roleplay that as engineering in progress and sometimes you mess it up. Now if you would put a chance systen there that would be more or less acceptable. In this case you would roll on a chance that the dilithium cost corresponds to some bar segments filling up. So you always get a little progress, from, for example 10% to 100%.
That way dilithium isn't totally wasted when you don't roll what you want. So in this system you can pre-select desired mods.
The reason why a developer puts a RNG in a game is because they want to avoid über grinders to benefit and those who are already too wealthy to just get whatever they want right away by just throwing their stacks of resources at it. In the above system you still limit that.
As someone said, it makes no sense for an engineer not to be able to see what the result will be. I have no gold weapons because I cannot play this game to an extent that I can grind for the requirements. I usually can't get 8k dilithium a day. I cannot grind endlessly on Omega particles. I cannot grind endlessly for money to buy keys for a chance for a lock box ship.
I can see what they have now is going to just be a replacement for imba weapons worth a hundred million that are in the exchange now. I have never had more than about 300 million and it takes me years to get that much. So with this thing nice stuff is still going to be out of reach for me. Or be like upgrading now, which is so costly that I craft at most 4 times a year, one or two tried at something.
I google translated the german post and fixed some of the google translate oddities:
Question 1: What happens to the crafting mod [Pen]? (Burst - this seems to be any craft specific mod, not just pen)
1. You can not lock them in the modification menu
2. They can not be rerolled
Advantage: You will not delete your [Pen], but on the other hand you will not get rid of [Snare] an otherwise good weapon. (Burst - from the jist, it sounds like if you have a weapon with crafting mods, they will be on the weapon no matter what, so crtdx3 snare? you can reroll the crtds, but not snare mod)
Question 2: What is the chance to get the desired mod?
A golden / epic weapon has a total of 5 modifiers. Four of them are "normal", so either [Acc], [Dmg], [CrtD] or [CrtH].
First to the normal mods: If you roll out a single mod, you have in theory a 25% chance to get the new one you want. Theoretically - albeit extremely unlikely - you could be unlucky until the end of your life. The modification system has no "kill condition" like the crafting system with its 100% upgrade chance. On average, you will need 4 throws to change a single mod to the desired one.
Question 3: What about the new epic mods?
I could not verify it exactly, but I suspect all combinations are possible. I could confirm the presence of all combinations except [CrtH2] and [Dm2] - then I ran out of used materials. [CrtH2] but you can see in the GIF of the blog. If all are there, the chance of the desired Mod is 10%, you need an average of 10 attempts to get it. Under the hood, if I understood Borticus on reddit correctly, there still seems to be some harassment with additional, invisible DMG modifiers to these epic mods, e.g. Effectively make the new [Ac / Dm] an Acc-Dmg-Dmg. In my calculations, I assume that all 10 variants exist.
Question 4: How often do you have to roll the dice, so that finally all mods are right?
First I wanted to figure this out, but there is such a school trauma with stochistics, so I've written a little program that dices for me a million times each time. Yes, that's how much I hate stochistics. The results of what the rerolling of mods will cost on average:
(Burst - All refer to chance of a specific mod type/combo) )
1 slot of the 4 slots: 4 attempts, 2000 dilithium, 1400 used materials
2 slots of the 4 slots: 5.7 attempts, 3770 dilithium, 2800 used materials
3 lot of the 4 slots: 6.8 attempts, 5300 dilithium, 4200 used materials
All four slots (minus epic): 7.7 attempts, 6620 dilithium, 6500 used materials
Only the epic (specific mod type): 10 attempts, 5000 dilithium, 3510 waste materials
A normal + the epic: 10.9 attempts, 6700 dilithium, 4900 waste materials
Two normal + the epic: 11.6 attempts, 8160 dilithium, 6300 scrap materials
Three normal + the epic: 12.1 attempts, 9400 dilithium, 7700 waste materials
Four normal + the epic (aka all): 12.5 attempts, 10400 dilithium, 9100 waste materials
(Tested on an antiproton beam bank Mk XII gold - for more I had really no nerve anymore)
Realistically, I tend to think of a scenario like (two normal + epic), most of us will already have reasonably usable weapons.
All in all, the prices are really limited in mMn - provided of course I have not miscalculated and they remain as at the moment on Tribble, that's all work in progress. Much more expensive than upgrading is not, even if just the epic mod really goes into the money. Mind you, these are all averages, you could be really unlucky or crack the jackpot on the first try.
Question 5: Are the chances for the mods evenly distributed, so CrtD as likely as Acc?
No idea, I suppose that's what my tests are based on. I could not test it unfortunately, because for reliable values one would have to throw hundreds of times; and while you can claim Tribble Dili without end, salvage afaik looks different, you would have to give it a try. And I do not spend (again) hours in Japori.
Question 6: How much is the fun? (burst - no idea, but context suggests its about costs)
The blog is either misleading, the system on Tribble does not work properly or in the meantime something has changed. I can only tell you what it currently looks like on the test server:
The blog says, the more mods you roll, the cheaper it gets.
Borticus has already confirmed that it will be more expensive per newly rolled slot, but the price does not increase proportionally. In other words, the more you roll at the same time, the cheaper it is to roll per slot.
Depending on the number of diced mods the following Dili costs are due: 500, 900, 1200, 1400, 1500.
The same applies to used materials / salvage: 350, 700, 1050, 1400, 1750.
The blog also suggests it could be more expensive per dice pass - I could not see anything of that. Even after several rounds, the prices remained at the above figures.
GPL would have been better used for this since it's the least used currency in the game compared to refined dil.
Draal - FED, Saurian, LV60 - TAC
Mirak - FED 23c, Vulkan, LV60 - TAC
Ascaran Bloodclaw - KDF, Gorn, Lv18 - TAC
Melchiah - KDF, Gorn, LV60 - TAC
Ne'roon - KDF,Lethian, L60, TAC
Turel - ROM-KDF, Reman, 30, TAC
Elric - ROM-Fed, Romulan, L60, TAC
Richtor Belmont - FED 23c, Human,LV20, SCI
G'Kar - KDF, Gorn, L10
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I think just regular items already seem to be increasing in price just a smidgeon on the Exchange. Maybe it is some sort of adjustment of the Exchange market for right after the exodus of players of the Winter Event, or it could be economic whales are buying up & stockpiling items for Salvage points.
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But when a slot machine mechanic comes in, it kinda goes to the same thing of what to guess when you upgrade an item..So basically not much of a difference between your normal upgrade where you have no clue of what mod you'd get and this re-roll mechanic where again you wouldnt know what you may or may not get..It IMO looks like an engineering form of DABO....Well no thank you I might just pass and go along my way..
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A positive is that by the looks of things you can lock down the mods you want. Question here is will that lock be per roll and require resources to maintain after each spin?
Still on the fence about upgrading any of my stuff though. I very rarely did before due to the dil costs involved and cryptics love of stacking decks to push folk to spend more than is needed for stuff they want. If it's another dil sink then I'll likely pass as the game doesnt really need more of them.
It'll be interesting to see what knock on effect salvaging has on the exchange price gougers. More folk salvaging means less ec being made to spent filling their already fat wallets. I can see the gougers already looking out for cheaper stuff with "bad" rolls to buy and resell once this system goes live.
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This becoming available for non-bound-to-character/account items will crash the market and the prices on items and will discourage users from crafting cheap until they hit some mods and would just pull the roulette at higher prices to the end of the spectrum with alot of "acc" mods raining from all over the place to flap wallets to desperation.
Having played with it a little I can answer this. The cost is for each slot that you unlock and spin.
For instance you have an epic weapon with 5 slots. Unlocking 3 slots will cost you 1200 dil plus salvage points (didn't keep track of that, sorry) per spin. If after the first spin you lock one of the three, the cost drops to 900 dil plus salvage points per spin for the remaining two. Locking another after that spin leaves you with one slot unlocked, and the cost for a spin drops to 500 dil plus salvage points.
Just remember the cost I'm quoting is test purposes, and could go up or down as testing continues.
Although as you point out it is for testing so will more than likely go up in order to nudge folk into the dil exchange and buying zen, such is the way of things in f2p models.
Other thing I'm curious about is at what point do the mod slots unlock. The gif shows a top end weapon so not surprising it would have all 5 to mess about with but will a rare only have 3 slots and UR 4.
Having rarely bothered upgrading stuff anyway, are the ones listed as not being able to get tweaked by the new system simply because they will always end up the same as they get upgraded? Just stating that they can't without a reason given is a niggly detail.
Of course what happens on Tribble server never means it will be that way on the real Holodeck server.
Cryptic can play that statistical game with any in game mechanics like this re-engineering, which is just another RNG sink, for better or worse & even odds on lock boxes & packs.
https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/startrekonline/#/discussion/1237400/official-feedback-thread-for-re-engineering
First, randomization as a skill. I have a real problem with the concept that an engineer, with years of training and experience, has no idea what his end design will be capable of doing once built. He doesn't know what components will boost damage or increase accuracy or any other effect. I work in an engineering firm, I do know that in the real world, engineers are methodical people, who know what every piece of gear will do to the product as a whole. In fact they don't even add a piece of equipment unless they have a clear understand on how it works, what it does and how it will effect the systems they have it connected to it. So randomizing engineering results is so illogical to me that I can't bring myself to use it.
Secondly, Dilithium being required to used to EVERY freaking thing is so stupid. You already limit how much dilithium we can get, but the number of processes and systems that need dilithium keep increasing without the amount of dilithium we get day to day increasing too. And the number of "currencies" that exist have increased too. There are even some currencies that are underutilized. GPL is a very big one in this category. I think this would be better received if GPL was in place of Dilithium as a currency. GPL need a better use of it, and this is good way that makes a lot of sense and keeps it within the logic of the universe and setting as a whole.
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Being able to get [shpen]*4 modifiers on all types of weapons would break ground combat I think.
[3/25 10:41][Combat (Self)]Your Haymaker deals 26187 (10692) Physical Damage(Critical) to Orinoco.
I would rather just pay an upfront dil cost and pick the mods I want. Put a limit on stacked mods so people have to pick something other than critD.
Please no more gambling
tl;dr: it doesn't cost as much as it looks like. and he was to lazy to calculate and made a programm that calculated it for him.
have fun
original post:
in this thread, look for BenAlexander
https://www.arcgames.com/de/forums/stode#/discussion/380364/pc-neu-modifizierung/p1
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Agree on this.
I refuse to stack consoles because it doesn't feel right to do so but have always thought that they should have had a limit of 1 or 2 of each type of fancy consoles from the very start. Very unlikely to happen now as console stacking is a bread and butter thing for the dps builds.
It's one of the things that should have been done with the revamp but they avoided a shitstorm of galactic proportions by not doing so.
Why introducing another currency and not just work with the current system to make it LESS random. This introduces more GRINDING and waste of time. Remove the randomness and remove the currency and it's fixed.
YES. I rather HAVE Pet tabs than this feature.
They are just playing with your minds into something that was already broken by introducing MORE grind and another currency. What a waste of time IMO.
Come on Another Currency and MORE GAMBLING! Just fix whats broken and call it a day!
Original STO beta tester.
My character Tsin'xing
Which is why I decided not to life-sub...any mention from a company about "long term econmics" to the paying customer is a bad sign....
And that's the whole point....expensive. Same gamble...different game.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
What I prefer is a system like the reputation stuff. You want the, say, Lukari space set or ground set? You slot the project and fill it with money, dilithium, etc. You see a bar go up as you pour resources in. That way you can work towards a clearly visible result. That is rewarding, because it triggers the pleasure center of the brain.
RNG, gambling gives a thrill as well, but is mostly followed by disappointment. A developer should avoid that...
The system as they now show isn't bad in the way you can unlock mods. And pick what to change on an item. But I would rather see a bar to fill so that you can work towards a goal. You can roleplay that as engineering in progress and sometimes you mess it up. Now if you would put a chance systen there that would be more or less acceptable. In this case you would roll on a chance that the dilithium cost corresponds to some bar segments filling up. So you always get a little progress, from, for example 10% to 100%.
That way dilithium isn't totally wasted when you don't roll what you want. So in this system you can pre-select desired mods.
The reason why a developer puts a RNG in a game is because they want to avoid über grinders to benefit and those who are already too wealthy to just get whatever they want right away by just throwing their stacks of resources at it. In the above system you still limit that.
As someone said, it makes no sense for an engineer not to be able to see what the result will be. I have no gold weapons because I cannot play this game to an extent that I can grind for the requirements. I usually can't get 8k dilithium a day. I cannot grind endlessly on Omega particles. I cannot grind endlessly for money to buy keys for a chance for a lock box ship.
I can see what they have now is going to just be a replacement for imba weapons worth a hundred million that are in the exchange now. I have never had more than about 300 million and it takes me years to get that much. So with this thing nice stuff is still going to be out of reach for me. Or be like upgrading now, which is so costly that I craft at most 4 times a year, one or two tried at something.
This will be awesome! Thanks...
Question 1: What happens to the crafting mod [Pen]? (Burst - this seems to be any craft specific mod, not just pen)
1. You can not lock them in the modification menu
2. They can not be rerolled
Advantage: You will not delete your [Pen], but on the other hand you will not get rid of [Snare] an otherwise good weapon. (Burst - from the jist, it sounds like if you have a weapon with crafting mods, they will be on the weapon no matter what, so crtdx3 snare? you can reroll the crtds, but not snare mod)
Question 2: What is the chance to get the desired mod?
A golden / epic weapon has a total of 5 modifiers. Four of them are "normal", so either [Acc], [Dmg], [CrtD] or [CrtH].
First to the normal mods: If you roll out a single mod, you have in theory a 25% chance to get the new one you want. Theoretically - albeit extremely unlikely - you could be unlucky until the end of your life. The modification system has no "kill condition" like the crafting system with its 100% upgrade chance. On average, you will need 4 throws to change a single mod to the desired one.
Question 3: What about the new epic mods?
I could not verify it exactly, but I suspect all combinations are possible. I could confirm the presence of all combinations except [CrtH2] and [Dm2] - then I ran out of used materials. [CrtH2] but you can see in the GIF of the blog. If all are there, the chance of the desired Mod is 10%, you need an average of 10 attempts to get it. Under the hood, if I understood Borticus on reddit correctly, there still seems to be some harassment with additional, invisible DMG modifiers to these epic mods, e.g. Effectively make the new [Ac / Dm] an Acc-Dmg-Dmg. In my calculations, I assume that all 10 variants exist.
Question 4: How often do you have to roll the dice, so that finally all mods are right?
First I wanted to figure this out, but there is such a school trauma with stochistics, so I've written a little program that dices for me a million times each time. Yes, that's how much I hate stochistics. The results of what the rerolling of mods will cost on average:
(Burst - All refer to chance of a specific mod type/combo) )
1 slot of the 4 slots: 4 attempts, 2000 dilithium, 1400 used materials
2 slots of the 4 slots: 5.7 attempts, 3770 dilithium, 2800 used materials
3 lot of the 4 slots: 6.8 attempts, 5300 dilithium, 4200 used materials
All four slots (minus epic): 7.7 attempts, 6620 dilithium, 6500 used materials
Only the epic (specific mod type): 10 attempts, 5000 dilithium, 3510 waste materials
A normal + the epic: 10.9 attempts, 6700 dilithium, 4900 waste materials
Two normal + the epic: 11.6 attempts, 8160 dilithium, 6300 scrap materials
Three normal + the epic: 12.1 attempts, 9400 dilithium, 7700 waste materials
Four normal + the epic (aka all): 12.5 attempts, 10400 dilithium, 9100 waste materials
(Tested on an antiproton beam bank Mk XII gold - for more I had really no nerve anymore)
Realistically, I tend to think of a scenario like (two normal + epic), most of us will already have reasonably usable weapons.
All in all, the prices are really limited in mMn - provided of course I have not miscalculated and they remain as at the moment on Tribble, that's all work in progress. Much more expensive than upgrading is not, even if just the epic mod really goes into the money. Mind you, these are all averages, you could be really unlucky or crack the jackpot on the first try.
Question 5: Are the chances for the mods evenly distributed, so CrtD as likely as Acc?
No idea, I suppose that's what my tests are based on. I could not test it unfortunately, because for reliable values one would have to throw hundreds of times; and while you can claim Tribble Dili without end, salvage afaik looks different, you would have to give it a try. And I do not spend (again) hours in Japori.
Question 6: How much is the fun? (burst - no idea, but context suggests its about costs)
The blog is either misleading, the system on Tribble does not work properly or in the meantime something has changed. I can only tell you what it currently looks like on the test server:
The blog says, the more mods you roll, the cheaper it gets.
Borticus has already confirmed that it will be more expensive per newly rolled slot, but the price does not increase proportionally. In other words, the more you roll at the same time, the cheaper it is to roll per slot.
Depending on the number of diced mods the following Dili costs are due: 500, 900, 1200, 1400, 1500.
The same applies to used materials / salvage: 350, 700, 1050, 1400, 1750.
The blog also suggests it could be more expensive per dice pass - I could not see anything of that. Even after several rounds, the prices remained at the above figures.
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