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ST Discovery: Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum (1x08)

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  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,450 Bug Hunter
    I don't like it
    mhall85 wrote: »
    Yes, you guys are correct. General Order 7 was only mentioned in "The Menagerie," and was never mentioned again in canon. So, one can assume that General Order 7 was repealed or changed at some point.

    It also makes no sense, as a rule, of course. And THAT goes back to the nature of "The Menagerie." It was a creative use of the unaired original pilot as a "clips show" to save money. Since they used "The Cage" in this way, they needed the "Menagerie" story wrapper needed SOME weight/tension to it, if Spock was going to take the Enterprise, kidnap Pike, and deliver him to Talos IV. Not only is Spock's career on the line, his very life is on the line.

    But, again, the rule makes no damn sense, LOL, so tension doesn't exist. It's probably why later Trek writers just ignore GO 7 altogether.

    STILL... GO 7 is canon, so... :tongue:

    Well Cornwall said they have no death penalty so it's no longer canon. Same as lithium powered starships.​​
    22762792376_ac7c992b7c_o.png
    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
    JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

    #TASforSTO


    '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
    'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
    'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
    '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
    'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
    '...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek

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  • mirrorchaosmirrorchaos Member Posts: 9,817 Arc User
    edited November 2017
    I Like it
    General Order 7 was in place by at least 2267. Stardate 3012.5.
    Cornwell mentioned there was no such death penalty. Stardate 1308.9.

    The kicker here is that only specific invdividals knew of this form of punishment in Starfleet and from what little i know it's specific to Talos IV.
    T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW.
    Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
  • angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 10,838 Arc User
    Although authors like to paint the UFP and specifically Starfleet into some kind of fascistoid dystopia now and then, GO7 makes no sense, not even as a "super secret punishment" for trespassing Talos IV, considering there are planets with beings much more dangerous and/or malicious.​​
    lFC4bt2.gif
    ^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
    "No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
    "A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
    "That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
  • valoreahvaloreah Member Posts: 11,066 Arc User
    I Like it
    artan42 wrote: »
    Well Cornwall said they have no death penalty so it's no longer canon. Same as lithium powered starships.​​

    And at this point in time, they may not have had a death penalty yet. The Enterprise under Pike may not have been to Talos IV yet.

    Dear Devs: I enjoyed the Legacy of Romulus expansion much more than the Delta Rising expansion. .
    thecosmic1 wrote:
    Anyone calling Valoreah a "Cryptic fanboy" must be new to the forum.

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  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,450 Bug Hunter
    I don't like it
    valoreah wrote: »
    artan42 wrote: »
    Well Cornwall said they have no death penalty so it's no longer canon. Same as lithium powered starships.

    And at this point in time, they may not have had a death penalty yet. The Enterprise under Pike may not have been to Talos IV yet.

    Pike must really exaggerate what happens there beyond all extremes then. Kirk visits far worse places in TOS. The Orgaians, Metrons, Tralan, Gorgon and so on are far worse than the Talosians.​​
    22762792376_ac7c992b7c_o.png
    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
    JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

    #TASforSTO


    '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
    'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
    'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
    '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
    'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
    '...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek

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  • redeyedravenredeyedraven Member Posts: 1,295 Arc User
    I Like it
    valoreah wrote: »
    No reason to believe he didn't see something worthwhile in Saru.

    You guys miss something. Lorca's crew, at least on the bridge mostly consists of survivors from the battle at the binary stars in the first place.

    It definately does not seem like a random Starfleet-decision. I guess Lorca specifically reqested this because he wanted a crew that has fought the klingons before, Saru just got promoted in the process. His special sense for imminent threats definately could come in handy, but on a starship that can be attacked any moment by cloaking ships it probably doesn't work so well anyway. It works if Saru knows something is out there, be it known or unknown. Otherwise he's just as blind as a human.

    artan42 wrote: »
    Yes, but that dosn't mean every time a character acts odd it's because they're from the MU.

    Amen. Also that scene when Stamets is standing in front of a mirror and the audience shouts out "HE MUST BE FROM THE MU!" has convinced me that either people underestimate the writers of DIS big time (REALLY big time), or they are really not the smartest audience in the world or they're used to STO's writing (like let's child-bake everything from ST-episodes and movies into one big joyride).





  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 11,548 Arc User
    Stamets is seeing into the Mirror Universe I bet.

    GETTING TOO HIGH ON THE SHROOMS MAN

    Possible, but his weird reaction with Tilly seemed more like his past self and future self temporarily took over which is why he greeted Tilly as Captain.
  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,450 Bug Hunter
    I don't like it
    artan42 wrote: »
    Pike must really exaggerate what happens there beyond all extremes then. Kirk visits far worse places in TOS. The Orgaians, Metrons, Tralan, Gorgon and so on are far worse than the Talosians.
    The Orgainians and Metrons aren't hostile, Gorgan is dead, and Trelane was taken away by his parents.

    The Talosians are none of the above, in fact, they are an openly deceitful and hostile race, whose can manipulate a person's mind to the extreme degree, and like to lure people to their planet via fake distress calls.

    It's all about intent.

    And the Talosans are not weapon proof. Pike knows this. General Order 24 is more of a deterrent than a death penalty. It's also not difficult for Pike to pop an entry into the Starfleet computers saying 'BTW dudes, distress calls from Talos are fake news guys'. Thus the great Talosian threat is gone.

    Also the Metrons were incredibly hostile, the Organians are quite capable of messing things up royally even if their intentions are not hostile and the fact that Gorgon, Trelane, and Apollo (possibly) are out of the picture dosn't negate their threat at the time.

    Starfleet did sod all about the Galactic Barrier as Kirk was able to revisit without any repercussions twice. That place turns people into insane gods. Even more dangerous than Talos.

    And I'm reasonably certain the Talos penalty was mentions as the 'last on our books' meaning Starfleet had more and implying it's been there a while. I find it difficult to believe any ever existed or Archer would have been first up against the wall.​​
    22762792376_ac7c992b7c_o.png
    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
    JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

    #TASforSTO


    '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
    'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
    'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
    '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
    'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
    '...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek

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  • valoreahvaloreah Member Posts: 11,066 Arc User
    I Like it
    The Enterprise under Pike would have gone to Talos IV two years before Discovery begins.

    Did they? I don't recall a specific date/year being mentioned in either "The Cage" or "The Menagerie".

    Dear Devs: I enjoyed the Legacy of Romulus expansion much more than the Delta Rising expansion. .
    thecosmic1 wrote:
    Anyone calling Valoreah a "Cryptic fanboy" must be new to the forum.

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  • mhall85mhall85 Member Posts: 2,852 Arc User1
    edited November 2017
    I Like it
    angrytarg wrote: »
    Although authors like to paint the UFP and specifically Starfleet into some kind of fascistoid dystopia now and then, GO7 makes no sense, not even as a "super secret punishment" for trespassing Talos IV, considering there are planets with beings much more dangerous and/or malicious.​​

    Exactly.

    You threaten death for visiting a planet where you might not even actually escape from? The Talosians also did not seem interested in any form of conquest, so it's not like Starfleet had to worry about their captains becoming mindless drones controlled by the eggheads. The need for a death penalty for THIS seems... very odd.

    It goes back to what I was saying about "The Menagerie." Spock broke the rule, sure, but Starfleet would put him to death for delivering Vegetable Pike to that planet for a better quality of life? With no repercussions and a peaceful resolution with the Talosians?
    Post edited by mhall85 on
    d87926bd02aaa4eb12e2bb0fbc1f7061.jpg
  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,450 Bug Hunter
    I don't like it
    -Starfleet doesn't condone genocide of an alien species either.

    Really? A lot of branches of Starfleet were complicit in the attempted genocide of the Founders from S31 to Starfleet Medical.
    -General Order 24 is also one of those things that has largely been retconed out of the series, since at no point in TNG, DS9, or VOY, does anyone attempt to use it, despite it being an easy and obvious path to protecting themselves, or the Federation, from an obviously hostile power. The entire IDEA of General Order 24 goes against everything the Federation stands for.

    In the exact same way as the Talos penalty.
    -Very true, which is why General Order 7 was, and is, stupid.

    It is stupid, that's why it's been retconed out.
    -The Metrons weren't hostile at all. They stopped two ships from destroying each other, and let the captains duke it out on a planet instead. They did nothing but reduce the amount of lives that would have been lost had the two ships fought each other. The Metrons also afterward establish some sort of trading deal with the species, as deals with the Metron Consortium are mentioned in DS9.

    The Metrons captured two sentient beings and put them on a world with all the tools necessary to kill each other and no way of communicating and were willing to destroy the ship of the looser. That's hostility. And there's no reason to assume the Metron Consortium is related, like the constant reuse of Rigel.
    -Orgainans are capable, but capability isn't the problem, it's intent that matters. And everyone knows the Organians don't intend to do anything.

    They froze two entire fleets in space and superheated the controls on those ships whilst they threatened Kronos and Earth. That's action, and the intent to cause pain and threaten into compliance is hostility.
    -General Order 7 prevents ships from going back to a planet due to it being hostile. If the hostiles are removed in the first encounter scenario, then there is no reason to impose GO7 on them, as there are no hostiles left.

    Yeah, that was my point with pointing out GO 24.
    -The galactic barrier is also one of those bits of lore that is there when they need it, but not when they don't. Also, it only turns a very select number of people, with the highest possible ESP rating, into gods. It's not really dangerous so long as you avoid having those kinds of people on board.

    Have they fully tested it to make sure it's only highly ESPers? The fact it dosn't affect Spock shows there's something else going on.
    -Archer wasn't part of Starfleet, and did nothign worse then Sisko did.

    I'm sure the Valakians would take great comfort to know Sisko also condemned a sentient race to total extinction and furiously patted himself on the back so hard his Mirror counterpart felt it.

    Except he didn't. The worst thing Sisko did was make a planet uninhabitable for some terrorists.​​
    22762792376_ac7c992b7c_o.png
    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
    JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

    #TASforSTO


    '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
    'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
    'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
    '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
    'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
    '...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek

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  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,450 Bug Hunter
    I don't like it
    artan42 wrote: »
    snip
    1. Section 31 agents manipulating various branches of Starfleet is proof of only outside manipulation.
    2. Yes, and which is why its basically non-canon at this point... which I have always said. So why are you arguing again?
    3. Ditto for the above
    4.
    A. The Metrons did nothing that the Kirk and the Gorn weren't going to do to each other already.
    B. They are related according to the Star Charts, the Star Trek Encyclopedia, and the Stellar Cartography Maps.
    C. Most of the Rigels are related. And are part of the Beta Rigel system. Two of them blog to the true Rigel much further out in space.
    5. They inflicted no actual harm on anyone, and did nothing but heat up some metal panels to get everyone to put down their weapons. That is not hostility, unless you are insane.
    6. And THAT was MY point about both GO7 and GO24 the whole time. Again, why do you feel the need to debate something we both agreed on from the get go?
    7. Yes, that was the whole premise behind why the people who were affected were affected, and Spock didn't have high ESP scores. He just had the ability to use what ESP abilities he had due to his Vulcan nature, unlike the humans who didn't.
    8.
    A. The Valakians aren't extinct regardless.
    B. That is literally the Prime Directive. In fact, Archer is one of the few captains who can actually, safely, say he followed BASIC MORAL AND ETHICAL PRINCIPLES, by actually following the damn Prime Directive at all.
    C. Sisko did everything from using biological warfare to render a planet uninhabitable for humans, simply for his maddened revenge boner, and was complicit in the assassination of a Romulan Senator as a means to trick the Romulans into the war.

    1. Section 31 is Starfleet, it's a branch of Starfleet intelligence.
    2 and 3. You're arguing with me. I was the one that made the point it's been retconed out ages ago.
    4. And? It dosn't stop being a hostile action because somebody else was going to do it. And those three sources (Star Charts, the Star Trek Encyclopedia, and the Stellar Cartography Maps) are non-canon and thus fanfiction. And no links between the various Rigels have been brought up in canon.
    5. So scolding is not harm? Is the reactions of pain from the crews a mark of insanity as well?
    6. Then why bring it up?
    7. ESP is Extra Sensory Perception or telepathy. Vulcans are telepathic. Thus they have high ESP scores.
    8. What do you mean they aren't extinct? Phlox mad a cure then refused to give it to them both he and Archer are responsible for the extinction of their species by direct action. Plus the PD did not exist then. And even if it did I would hold Archer with the same contempt I held Picard to in TNGS1-2 except Picard was only willing to allow murder, not genocide to happen for a legal triviality. And if you even consider obeying the letter of the law more basically moral or ethical than saving an entire race then you belong alongside him in front of the wall.
    Neither altering a planets biosphere or complicity in two deaths are even close to the scale of willing genocide. You can't even hold the deaths of the Romulan troops on Sisko either as the Dominion would have invaded Romulus anyway and with no Federation or Klingon Empire to assist the Romulans would have been crushed.​​
    22762792376_ac7c992b7c_o.png
    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
    JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

    #TASforSTO


    '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
    'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
    'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
    '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
    'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
    '...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek

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  • angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 10,838 Arc User
    I just watched the episode and I have to say it feels like DSC has no idea what it wants to be right now. Does it tell one story about Burnham and Klingorks or does it do episosic content after all? The excursion to the planet to use a spire to tap in to somehow decloak Klingorks - where? Everywhere? In the vincinity of the planet? I don't know, everything concerning Burnham is as exciting as watching cattle make pies, the Klingorks are just silly to look at and the reasons for showing us strange new worlds somehow don't fit into the big picture. I enjoyed last week's episode a lot more because it was somewhat self-contained...
    lFC4bt2.gif
    ^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
    "No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
    "A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
    "That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,450 Bug Hunter
    I don't like it
    angrytarg wrote: »
    I just watched the episode and I have to say it feels like DSC has no idea what it wants to be right now. Does it tell one story about Burnham and Klingorks or does it do episosic content after all? The excursion to the planet to use a spire to tap in to somehow decloak Klingorks - where? Everywhere? In the vincinity of the planet? I don't know, everything concerning Burnham is as exciting as watching cattle make pies, the Klingorks are just silly to look at and the reasons for showing us strange new worlds somehow don't fit into the big picture. I enjoyed last week's episode a lot more because it was somewhat self-contained...

    Apparently the episode suffered quite heavily in the editing room which makes me suspect it was two episodes at one point. One focusing on Saru and the planet and Officer McMushroomface as a B plot and one episode on L'Rell, Cornwall, and Kol (who, by the way looks awsome and really intimidating and like a genuine threat unlike L'Rell who manages to look like a doe eyed kid in a Shakespeare era costume).​​
    22762792376_ac7c992b7c_o.png
    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
    JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

    #TASforSTO


    '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
    'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
    'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
    '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
    'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
    '...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek

    Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
  • damienvryce2damienvryce2 Member Posts: 428 Arc User
    edited November 2017
    Tilly as a captain. :# :#

    Tactical Officer: Captain, we're being fired on!
    Captain Tilly: THAT'S F'N AWESOME!!
    STO: Where men are men and the women probably are too.
    I support the Star Trek Battles channel.
  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 11,548 Arc User
    artan42 wrote: »
    1. Section 31 is Starfleet, it's a branch of Starfleet intelligence.

    While it is possible that Section 31 is part of Starfleet, is unofficially supported by Starfleet's resources, and is controlled by the person in charge of Starfleet Intelligence, there is absolutely no proof that Section 31 is a branch of Starfleet Intelligence. Mainly due to the fact that if such proof existed, then it would have been erased.

    After all, completely autonomous organizations that officially don't exist don't fall under the jurisdiction of public intelligence organizations like Starfleet Intelligence. The whole purpose of Section 31 is that they can do the dirty work of the Federation while keeping Starfleet's hands clean. If Section 31 gets caught, then Starfleet can deny all knowledge of Section 31 and claim that it was the work of rogue Starfleet Officers and their staff.
  • redeyedravenredeyedraven Member Posts: 1,295 Arc User
    edited November 2017
    I Like it
    Tilly as a captain. :#:#

    Tactical Officer: Captain, we're being fired on!
    Captain Tilly: THAT'S F'N AWESOME!!

    Is everybody going to put things out of context? A cadet getting overexcited about the FUN side of science aboard a highly experimental ship is not quite the same as an experienced captain whose ship is under fire.
  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 11,548 Arc User
    edited November 2017
    Tilly as a captain. :#:#

    Tactical Officer: Captain, we're being fired on!
    Captain Tilly: THAT'S F'N AWESOME!!

    Is everybody going to put things out of context? A cadet getting overexcited about the FUN side of science aboard a highly experimental ship is not quite the same as an experienced captain whose ship is under fire.

    It is within context provided the Tactical Officer said "Captain, we're being fired on by <insert technobabble>! Getting fired on by Tetyron, Chronitons, Polarons, or some other new type of particle or energy that has never been encountered before is always interesting to Science captains provided that no Starfleet Officer gets killed in the process.

    I figure the easiest way to cause irreparable damage to Tilly is with a Tribble Torpedo Launcher.
    Post edited by starkaos on
  • daveynydaveyny Member Posts: 8,227 Arc User
    I Like it
    Did anybody else notice that the Klingon Lady's left eye changed color a couple of times during the episode?
    STO Member since February 2009.
    I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born!
    Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
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  • angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 10,838 Arc User
    Stop dissing Tilly! She's the best! :<

    > @daveyny said:
    > Did anybody else notice that the Klingon Lady's left eye changed color a couple of times during the episode?

    Sadly, we're at a point we don't know wether that's bad make-up or intentional xD
    lFC4bt2.gif
    ^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
    "No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
    "A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
    "That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
  • smokebaileysmokebailey Member Posts: 4,453 Arc User
    artan42 wrote: »

    Also the Metrons were incredibly hostile, the Organians are quite capable of messing things up royally even if their intentions are not hostile ​​

    More like advanced beings who did not want primitive, spoiled political powers set on destroying each other, and cause havoc in their home spaces. It's like seeing 2 bratty kids in a savage argument, and then reach for some sharp objects....the Organians and Metrons simply broke their sticks.

    dvZq2Aj.jpg
  • smokebaileysmokebailey Member Posts: 4,453 Arc User
    dvZq2Aj.jpg
  • smokebaileysmokebailey Member Posts: 4,453 Arc User
    I did like the new planet, as Foley in the above review said, the planet does fit with the Gaia theory, which I strongly believe in.
    dvZq2Aj.jpg
  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,958 Arc User
    I Like it
    It seems to me the reason they gave us one extra episode before the mid-season break was that the last episode just doesn't work on its own and it's basically a two-parter.
    artan42 wrote: »

    Also the Metrons were incredibly hostile, the Organians are quite capable of messing things up royally even if their intentions are not hostile ​​

    More like advanced beings who did not want primitive, spoiled political powers set on destroying each other, and cause havoc in their home spaces. It's like seeing 2 bratty kids in a savage argument, and then reach for some sharp objects....the Organians and Metrons simply broke their sticks.
    Exactly like two bratty kids... except one of the kids is killed at the end by its parents?


    Mustrum "Tough Love" Ridcully
    Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,450 Bug Hunter
    I don't like it
    starkaos wrote: »
    artan42 wrote: »
    1. Section 31 is Starfleet, it's a branch of Starfleet intelligence.

    While it is possible that Section 31 is part of Starfleet, is unofficially supported by Starfleet's resources, and is controlled by the person in charge of Starfleet Intelligence, there is absolutely no proof that Section 31 is a branch of Starfleet Intelligence. Mainly due to the fact that if such proof existed, then it would have been erased.

    After all, completely autonomous organizations that officially don't exist don't fall under the jurisdiction of public intelligence organizations like Starfleet Intelligence. The whole purpose of Section 31 is that they can do the dirty work of the Federation while keeping Starfleet's hands clean. If Section 31 gets caught, then Starfleet can deny all knowledge of Section 31 and claim that it was the work of rogue Starfleet Officers and their staff.

    Well no. It's unequivocally part of Starfleet. And it's also unequivocally part of Starfleet Intelligence. The fact that Starfleet or the Federation can pull plausible deniability is irrelevant. Anybody can do that with their intelligence services. It's their job.
    artan42 wrote: »

    Also the Metrons were incredibly hostile, the Organians are quite capable of messing things up royally even if their intentions are not hostile

    More like advanced beings who did not want primitive, spoiled political powers set on destroying each other, and cause havoc in their home spaces. It's like seeing 2 bratty kids in a savage argument, and then reach for some sharp objects....the Organians and Metrons simply broke their sticks.

    Right.... So? That makes them hostile and they acted with hostilely. The fact that the Metrons created an arena and were going to kill the looser escaped your notice as well? Or the fact the Organians just increased the hostility between the Klingons and Federation.​​
    22762792376_ac7c992b7c_o.png
    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
    JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

    #TASforSTO


    '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
    'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
    'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
    '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
    'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
    '...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek

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  • redeyedravenredeyedraven Member Posts: 1,295 Arc User
    I Like it
    For people who spend so much time trying to analyze things, they aren't very good at it

    Agreed. They lack the professional knowledge and understanding a proper review requires.
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