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  • trennantrennan Member Posts: 2,839 Arc User
    arionisa wrote: »
    With rare exceptions space magic powers have always been able to be countered just as soon as the current space magic wizard on the ship figured out how it was generated to begin with. In keeping with that, for any space magic being generated by an ally, the counter would already be well known by all allies. Even ignoring the examples set in the various series, unless the ship generating the space magic is also affected by it, then there obviously is a counter to it, and again, all allied ships would either already know, or be given, the counter (by any Captain with a shred of common sense).

    There is a way to make Grav Well do friendly fire, without it affecting the friendly targets. It's called space debris. Imagine using that grav well and every bit of lose rock, or ships chunks within a 50-100m area comes hurtling toward the epicenter. This would affect caster, friendlies, and enemies.

    This could be the drawback to powers like Grav Well, with a friendly fire selection. Anything within a certain range that can't resist the pull of it, should move toward it.

    Remember, meteor showers happen on Earth when asteroids get caught in Earth's gravitation pull, or gravity well.

    But this is based in the actual physics of it and defies the very nature of the space magic abilities to begin with.
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  • pottsey5gpottsey5g Member Posts: 4,177 Arc User
    trennan wrote: »
    arionisa wrote: »
    With rare exceptions space magic powers have always been able to be countered just as soon as the current space magic wizard on the ship figured out how it was generated to begin with. In keeping with that, for any space magic being generated by an ally, the counter would already be well known by all allies. Even ignoring the examples set in the various series, unless the ship generating the space magic is also affected by it, then there obviously is a counter to it, and again, all allied ships would either already know, or be given, the counter (by any Captain with a shred of common sense).

    There is a way to make Grav Well do friendly fire, without it affecting the friendly targets. It's called space debris. Imagine using that grav well and every bit of lose rock, or ships chunks within a 50-100m area comes hurtling toward the epicenter. This would affect caster, friendlies, and enemies.

    This could be the drawback to powers like Grav Well, with a friendly fire selection. Anything within a certain range that can't resist the pull of it, should move toward it.

    Remember, meteor showers happen on Earth when asteroids get caught in Earth's gravitation pull, or gravity well.

    But this is based in the actual physics of it and defies the very nature of the space magic abilities to begin with.
    That doesn't really make sense within STO lore. Space debris and every bit of lose rock is deflected by the deflector array automatically. That's its main role which is why space debris do not harm Star Ships that have working deflectors arrays.
  • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 9,427 Arc User
    trennan wrote: »
    arionisa wrote: »
    With rare exceptions space magic powers have always been able to be countered just as soon as the current space magic wizard on the ship figured out how it was generated to begin with. In keeping with that, for any space magic being generated by an ally, the counter would already be well known by all allies. Even ignoring the examples set in the various series, unless the ship generating the space magic is also affected by it, then there obviously is a counter to it, and again, all allied ships would either already know, or be given, the counter (by any Captain with a shred of common sense).

    There is a way to make Grav Well do friendly fire, without it affecting the friendly targets. It's called space debris. Imagine using that grav well and every bit of lose rock, or ships chunks within a 50-100m area comes hurtling toward the epicenter. This would affect caster, friendlies, and enemies.

    This could be the drawback to powers like Grav Well, with a friendly fire selection. Anything within a certain range that can't resist the pull of it, should move toward it.

    Remember, meteor showers happen on Earth when asteroids get caught in Earth's gravitation pull, or gravity well.

    But this is based in the actual physics of it and defies the very nature of the space magic abilities to begin with.
    With real physics, space is very much empty and creating gravity wells strong enough to pull distant objects would wreak all kinds of havoc. Nevermind in real physics it's impossible to create a gravity well disjoint from the mass that's creating it in the first place.

    Really, none of STO's space magic works at all well with real physics.
  • trennantrennan Member Posts: 2,839 Arc User
    pottsey5g wrote: »
    trennan wrote: »
    arionisa wrote: »
    With rare exceptions space magic powers have always been able to be countered just as soon as the current space magic wizard on the ship figured out how it was generated to begin with. In keeping with that, for any space magic being generated by an ally, the counter would already be well known by all allies. Even ignoring the examples set in the various series, unless the ship generating the space magic is also affected by it, then there obviously is a counter to it, and again, all allied ships would either already know, or be given, the counter (by any Captain with a shred of common sense).

    There is a way to make Grav Well do friendly fire, without it affecting the friendly targets. It's called space debris. Imagine using that grav well and every bit of lose rock, or ships chunks within a 50-100m area comes hurtling toward the epicenter. This would affect caster, friendlies, and enemies.

    This could be the drawback to powers like Grav Well, with a friendly fire selection. Anything within a certain range that can't resist the pull of it, should move toward it.

    Remember, meteor showers happen on Earth when asteroids get caught in Earth's gravitation pull, or gravity well.

    But this is based in the actual physics of it and defies the very nature of the space magic abilities to begin with.
    That doesn't really make sense within STO lore. Space debris and every bit of lose rock is deflected by the deflector array automatically. That's its main role which is why space debris do not harm Star Ships that have working deflectors arrays.

    Yes but what about chunks of debris that are say, one quarter to half the size of your ship? You know, like those asteroids you have to fly around, because you deflector dish doesn't have an affect on them? These can't resist a gravity well, as they have no propulsion system to do so.

    Add to this, once all this is gathered within the gravity well. Once it ends, any explosion within that area would turn it all in the shrapnel. This is the same basic principal as a M26 fragmentation grenade or M18 Claymore mine. This then changes the very nature of said debris, from debris to ballistic projectile.

    An example of this would be attaching two magnets to a explosive, say a pound of C4, and then dragging it through a salvage yard. It's going to pick up bit of metal, screws, bolts, nails, springs, and various other pieces of a car. Now what do you think is going to happen to all that debris when you set of that explosive? Sure some of the smaller piece will be vaporized in the explosion. But those larger chunks, yeah... you might want to find something to hide behind.

    This is how grav well can have a friendly fire function. Because I can promise you a grenade, a mine, a torpedo, a missile does not distinguish between friend and foe when it explodes. Their whole purpose is to explode and devastate everything within their Effective Kill Range.
    Mm5NeXy.gif
  • galattgalatt Member Posts: 707 Arc User
    Friendly fire does exist in game to some extent.
    A warp core explosion is nobody's friend, but they can be mitigated
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  • orondisorondis Member Posts: 1,447 Arc User
    I'd agree with the OP if Star Trek Online was a game like Elite Dangerous or the not close to being finished Star Citizen.

    It's not, it's very much a theme park MMO, where a single Federation cruiser can zap a Borg/Voth/Undine/some-supposedly-uber-powerful-race armada in seconds.
    Previously Alendiak
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  • pottsey5gpottsey5g Member Posts: 4,177 Arc User
    edited November 2017
    trennan wrote: »
    This is how grav well can have a friendly fire function. Because I can promise you a grenade, a mine, a torpedo, a missile does not distinguish between friend and foe when it explodes. Their whole purpose is to explode and devastate everything within their Effective Kill Range.
    As I said before last time friendly fire was in game it was a massive disaster. Adding it back in is easy but I still have bad memory's of last time mines and everything else that explodes caused friendly fire. Its a bad idea to re add it.


  • trennantrennan Member Posts: 2,839 Arc User
    edited November 2017
    pottsey5g wrote: »
    trennan wrote: »
    This is how grav well can have a friendly fire function. Because I can promise you a grenade, a mine, a torpedo, a missile does not distinguish between friend and foe when it explodes. Their whole purpose is to explode and devastate everything within their Effective Kill Range.
    As I said before last time friendly fire was in game it was a massive disaster. Adding it back in is easy but I still have bad memory's of last time mines and everything else that explodes caused friendly fire. Its a bad idea to re add it.


    I'm not looking at it in that manner. I'm looking at it from the Confuse side of it. You know, one of those things where you're personal situational awareness factors in. That's all I'm looking at, is the NPC's using Confuse more often. This already allows for "friendly fire", but if you're paying attention, you can mitigate it. If not, and you get hit with a confuse and pop a grav well on a friendly target. Well... then.. that's how it goes.

    For the on/off selection as others have stated. That wouldn't be so much a means to allow them to target others. Instead, it means they're good with being targeted by it. But there would still have to be a factor there, that allowed for you to target a friendly, i.e. a Confuse ability.

    A good example of this is, BFAW. Since it's an every target in range ability. With a Confuse, this should hit every target in range, friendly and enemy. Because that's what's it's meant to do any how. Which is what a confuse should do. Momentarily make everything a targetable enemy.

    This way it works the same on both sides. If the enemy hits you with a confuse. Well, there's a chance you're going to blast a friendly, instead of the enemy. If a player hits a npc with it, it means that enemy has a chance to blast a friendly, instead of you.

    Edit:
    Since I forgot to add it in there.

    Doing friendly fire this way, means that the "friendly fire" part of it is mitigated by the players awareness of what they are doing.
    Mm5NeXy.gif
  • pottsey5gpottsey5g Member Posts: 4,177 Arc User
    edited November 2017
    trennan wrote: »
    pottsey5g wrote: »
    trennan wrote: »
    This is how grav well can have a friendly fire function. Because I can promise you a grenade, a mine, a torpedo, a missile does not distinguish between friend and foe when it explodes. Their whole purpose is to explode and devastate everything within their Effective Kill Range.
    As I said before last time friendly fire was in game it was a massive disaster. Adding it back in is easy but I still have bad memory's of last time mines and everything else that explodes caused friendly fire. Its a bad idea to re add it.

    This already allows for "friendly fire", but if you're paying attention, you can mitigate it. If not, and you get hit with a confuse and pop a grav well on a friendly target. Well... then.. that's how it goes.
    To many players would abuse that just like friendly fire last time. Its all fine in a decent group but you are not factoring in the troll players, rubbish players and lag. The UI and game isn't responsive enough to stop firing and stop powers when a confuse hits.

    I lost count how often I hit a heal, after I clicked the heal the confuse hit and I heal hit the enemy. STO is known for its slow response on busy actions screens. I can just see it now someone clicks a grav well seconds later a confuse comes in and they wipe out there own team.

  • tigerariestigeraries Member Posts: 3,492 Arc User
    but I am only talking about aoe effects... if you have strong/high control you can be immune /or highly resistant to the effects. as for troll players... your only talking about event maps or battlezones... missions are all solo unless you go in with a group/pug. also you can not target a player or yellow npc... only red targets.

    also this could address some of the issues with torps/mines that are now immune to aoes... it can go back to the way it was before.
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