The show continues to insist on showing everyone as a-hole of some degree. Last episode they smeared Saru a bit - this time it Vulcans' turn.
1. So in TRIBBLE Vulcans en-masse are logic fascist, who clearly despise "illogical" species to the point, where the most extreme of them are ready to commit acts of terror against civilian targets. I guess now we know, why they so readily adopted the shoot first approach to the Klingon problem.
Them going behind the Federation council back and other member species (which btw are not only humans) to conduct unauthorized negotiations is a nice touch to that picture.
Yeah, that viper's nest they show Federation to be is surely a vision for better future, right.
2. Oh, silly me - when the episode began, I thought that they will finally show some redeeming qualities of Lorca, which could give at least some motivation for such a person's appointment to high commanding post in Starfleet. Nah, half-way through they turn around and show him again as a shady manipulator ans then eventually have him betray his friend. Looks like Lorca got his command the way Kelvin Kirk got his - nepotism.
3. The Klingons behave more and more like they are genetically modified ugly Romulans.
The show continues to insist on showing everyone as a-hole of some degree. Last episode they smeared Saru a bit - this time it Vulcans' turn.
1. So in TRIBBLE Vulcans en-masse are logic fascist, who clearly despise "illogical" species to the point, where the most extreme of them are ready to commit acts of terror against civilian targets. I guess now we know, why they so readily adopted the shoot first approach to the Klingon problem.
Them going behind the Federation council back and other member species (which btw are not only humans) to conduct unauthorized negotiations is a nice touch to that picture.
Yeah, that viper's nest they show Federation to be is surely a vision for better future, right.
2. Oh, silly me - when the episode began, I thought that they will finally show some redeeming qualities of Lorca, which could give at least some motivation for such a person's appointment to high commanding post in Starfleet. Nah, half-way through they turn around and show him again as a shady manipulator ans then eventually have him betray his friend. Looks like Lorca got his command the way Kelvin Kirk got his - nepotism.
3. The Klingons behave more and more like they are genetically modified ugly Romulans.
Vulcans were depicted in a similar fashion on Enterprise, they were worse than that at times. Also don't forget that these terrorists are a minority on Vulcan. In the Enterprise-era they were openly hostile towards the andorians and almost went to war with Earth as well.
Redeeming qualities? I fully expect Lorca to eventually become an anti-hero if not a villain. The basic setup for both options is there. And it was kinda obvious since the beginning that there's something not quite right about him.
No, the klingons behave like they were thrown into their councilmember-feuds after Donatu V and while watching the federation expanding some klingons were probably just trying to figure out how to unify the houses against a common enemy. T'Kuvma was really, really lucky that Starfleet was so predictable that shortly after contact with the Shenzhou an entire fleet showed up, conveniently when he had the attention of the councilmembers.
Keep in mind that Praxis didn't explode yet. The klingons are very mistrustful to the federation at that time. The actual retcon about them is not their culture, it's where they got their cloaking-technology from (granted, T'Kuvma could have been the one that has worked with romulans to get it, but in that case he'd have done that on his own and not in the name of the empire, while originally it was implied that klingons and romulans had a short-lived alliance to exchange technologies).
Also, the writers apparently played Klingon Academy and remembered that Chang considers everything on a warship a weapon, as T'Kuvma just used a cloaked ship to destroy the Europa.
Vulcans were depicted in a similar fashion on Enterprise, they were worse than that at times. Also don't forget that these terrorists are a minority on Vulcan. In the Enterprise-era they were openly hostile towards the andorians and almost went to war with Earth as well.
Only it was before them fully embarrassing Surak's teachings in course of Vulcan's Reformation. These should be much different Vulcans now.
And I was not talking only about the terrorist, when it comes to Discovery's Vulcan fascism. Both the Head of Expedition and Vulcan admiral basically imply Vulcan's superiority to other more emotional species, that they can not be as good as the Vulcans - and that's exactly what fascism is about. The Head of Expedition treats Sarek as same weirdo for thinking that members of the other species could really be on par with the Vulcans.
Redeeming qualities? I fully expect Lorca to eventually become an anti-hero if not a villain. The basic setup for both options is there. And it was kinda obvious since the beginning that there's something not quite right about him.
There is a big difference between "something not right" and bat-TRIBBLE crazy, And this could not be attributed just to his trauma - you have to have some prior psychotic tendencies to go that far, you don't go full Hannibal Lector overnight. And to become such manipulator as Lorca you need a LOT of practice.
And this does not make much sense from in-universe point of view. Starfleet and Federation have certain principles, which their personnel is required to uphold. You won't get appointed to a senior officer position if you completely lack any signs of ethical behaviour and demonstrate rather flexible moral principles. Everything Lorca has done to this point goes against everything what Federation stands on. It is impossible that such behavioural tendencies were not present before - and the only way how he could get that up far the ranks is if Cornwell covered his backside on the most of his way as she was doing now.
For Lorca to become a senoir Starfleet officer he NEEDS to have a better side to him aside from his professional qualities and track record.
.
Yes, it is exactly their culture that is being changed - and it's exactly the greatest problem of TRIBBLE Klingons, not the visual re-design: most people would have gotten over Klingons and their ships looking differently if they behaved themselves like Klingons. But they don't - they are a combination of space orcs and Romulans. There is one species in canon that is shown to be inclined to:
- constant backstabbing among themselves and with others
- deceit and hypocrisy as modus operandi
- active use of manipulation to further their goals
And this species is not Klingons.
Yes, it is exactly their culture that is being changed - and it's exactly the greatest problem of TRIBBLE Klingons, not the visual re-design: most people would have gotten over Klingons and their ships looking differently if they behaved themselves like Klingons. But they don't - they are a combination of space orcs and Romulans. There is one species in canon that is shown to be inclined to:
- constant backstabbing among themselves and with others
- deceit and hypocrisy as modus operandi
- active use of manipulation to further their goals
And this species is not Klingons.
Umm... almost everybody currently bit**ing about klingons on DIS does it because the D7 looks so radically different while I've read almost nothing on the character of the klingons so far.
And aside from making them more extreme in their attitudes, they're perfectly klingon. T'Kuvma was an exception as he took the barge of the dead too literal, but he tried to rule his house different from others anyway.
Constant backstabbing is something klingon houses had to deal with before and might deal with again post Nemesis.
Ever heard of the house of Duras? The House of Duras basically did *nothing but* manipulate the hell out of everybody else. They staged a civil-war on Qo'nos to take over the council and destroyed the name of the house of Mogh just to cover up their own crimes.
Even the episode "The House of Quark" comes to mind... Quark uncovered a klingon buying himself into a better status. That particular klingon (D'Ghor) has predecessors that are apparently a councilmember in DIS and are known as deceivers. Kol (rumor has it Kor is from that house too) draws parallels to Kor. Kor denied Martok a warrior's life as Martok was born to a house with low status. Kol treats Voq' the same way and worse because Voq' doesn't even have a named house and is an albino klingon. And a klingon named 'the albino' was an old enemy of Kor too.
You see. There are callbacks. They are not re-inventing the wheel here.
I liked the episode. I think this was the best Discovery episode so far, seems to me that the show is starting to pick up pace. We may begin seeing a better setup in future episodes, everything seems to have been the prep for setting the stage of the main course of the show.
I don't get all the criticism Lorca gets here, if anything he's becoming much more likable and relatable to me. Stop observing him through Picard tainted glasses. Additionally, consider the ship's registry number - NCC-1031 and consider the possibility of this meaning what we have been speculating for it to mean.
Can't believe how judgmental people are with just a few episodes in the show (although I really should know better). Same thing happened with Enterprise, the whining was so loud it was heard in Gre'thor and then when the show picked up pace and got cancelled, those same people were bawling about being robbed of opportunity to see the Earth - Romulan war, etc.
That's why the vulcan extremists are a *minority*. It's not their entire species, nor is it a majority of them.
For now all the Vulcans they showed demonstrate different degrees of such attitude with the only exception of Sarek - looks a bit too much for so called minority.
And it is a pattern with this show, which provides almost everyone and everything with some ulterior agenda with few exceptions - it is not just some weird deviation, it is the major undertone of show's story-telling.
You see. There are callbacks. They are not re-inventing the wheel here.
There is a difference between a number of exceptions with majority of the species demonstrating other behavioural patterns, and the same line of conduct being shown again and again and again... It goes from the leaders of the Houses to ordinary warriors. Basically Voq was the only exception to this rule, but, if the spy theory is true, in the end he too has fallen back to treachery as a way of life.
T'Kuvma's main non-Klingoness was not hos weird religious cult - it is actually within the realm of possibilities for Prime timeline Klingons. What stands out how ever is hos elaborate manipulative plan of tricking the Klingons and Federation into war with each other, again a typically Romulan behaviour prior.
For these Klingons war is not about glory and honour, territory and resources - it's about murder and destruction. They don't even use prisoners as slaves - they just torture them to death, not for information - just for the process.
These Klingons are ready to abandon any type of loyalty and honour, to break any oaths and promises for a price.
It applies to almost all the Klingons we see on screen, which makes it logical to assume that it is universal for their society in TRIBBLE's version.
T'Kuvma's main non-Klingoness was not hos weird religious cult - it is actually within the realm of possibilities for Prime timeline Klingons. What stands out how ever is hos elaborate manipulative plan of tricking the Klingons and Federation into war with each other, again a typically Romulan behaviour prior.
T'Kuvma stands out because he opened his house to everybody, as birthright and status are a very important thing to klingons, not because of his "cult". Boreth is proof enough that while being a secular society, klingons do have mysticism.
And no, his idea of uniting the houses to fight a common enemy (a threat to the empire) is not romulan at all. As the klingon houses are mostly seperate from each other and only the LEADERS of the GREAT houses meet in the high council, they're mostly doing their own business. They all work for the empire in a way, but it's not like they're all automatically serving in the KDF.
T'Kuvma was also lucky that Shenzhou called for reinforcements as he expected, because if the fleet wouldn't have conveniently warped in T'Kuvma would have achieved nothing but remain to look like an idiot to the council.
And aside from all this, I got the impression that T'Kuvma genuinely wanted a unified klingon empire. He was not scheming, he had a cause.
They're TOS style Klingons by nature, not the Samurai-Mongol-Viking-Biker Gang mash-ups of TNG onward.
Exactly. DIS is set long before the Praxis-incident, so klingons are not TNG-klingons yet, and even at that time they still have their feuds and coup d'etats.
The "highborn" basically do their own things (fighting their feuds ala Game of Thrones) for the most part.
And no, his idea of uniting the houses to fight a common enemy (a threat to the empire) is not romulan at all.
It's not the question of WHAT (he wanted), it's the question of HOW (he approached it). He didn't call in the other Houses to witness an open attack on Federation forces somewhere, while making an impression with his cloaking technology. Instead he set up an complex trap, in which he lured Starfleet, based on his knowledge of Federation culture and Starfleet principles.
T'Kuvma was also lucky that Shenzhou called for reinforcements as he expected, because if the fleet wouldn't have conveniently warped in T'Kuvma would have achieved nothing but remain to look like an idiot to the council.
Or he would have pointed out Federation's "cowardness" and "weakness" for refusing to take a stand and protect their territory. And that's now, when he is ready to share the cloak with those who'll follow him, it is time to punish the Federation for its weakness and protect the Klingon way of life from corrupting influence of Federation peaceful philosophy. (And of course to engage in TRIBBLE's Klingons' favourite activities - dealing death and destruction).
And then proceed to attack some target in Fed space to demonstrate his power.
In that case he would have looked like an idiot to the councilmembers even more.
No, he would not because of TRIBBLE's distinct portrayal of Klingon racial psychology and culture.
They were already mocking and going to dismiss him because Shenzhou was not considered a threat. They might have destroyed Shenzhou out of frustration anyway, but without a federation fleet they'd have completely ignored T'Kuvma, getting back to their feuds.
The klingons might have been reimagined and repurposed, but they retain their actual character. Considering what happened between humans and klingons during the later Enterprise-era, trying to use the federation as a scapegoat to unify the houses against a common enemy is IN-character and lore-friendly. The klingons remember the federation as a dirty mixbag that includes humans, which lead to the augment-crisis afterall. Apart from the Hur'q, nothing was bringing the klingons so much trouble by then.
I think Cornwell has to die. She already believes Lorca to be unstable and unfit for command. If she gets back to Earth his career is over. Hence why he is willing to do a complete 180* and wait for orders. This is out of character for Lorca. He's disobeyed orders before. Hell, he did at the beginning of this very episode. Even Sura questions this sudden change in Lorca's logic. Sure, his excuse that this could be a Klingon trap to capture or destroy Discovery is valid. It just doesn't seem very genuine coming from him.
Well, whatever happens, I'm looking forward to finding out(soon I hope) how he blows up his previous command killing his entire crew to prevent capture and yet he survived. I wonder what kind of mental acrobatics will be employed by the writers to justify Lorca not only being given another command but command of Starfleet's most advanced starship with its most revolutionary new form of propulsion.
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I think Cornwell has to die. She already believes Lorca to be unstable and unfit for command. If she gets back to Earth his career is over. Hence why he is willing to do a complete 180* and wait for orders. This is out of character for Lorca. He's disobeyed orders before. Hell, he did at the beginning of this very episode. Even Sura questions this sudden change in Lorca's logic. Sure, his excuse that this could be a Klingon trap to capture or destroy Discovery is valid. It just doesn't seem very genuine coming from him.
Well, whatever happens, I'm looking forward to finding out(soon I hope) how he blows up his previous command killing his entire crew to prevent capture and yet he survived. I wonder what kind of mental acrobatics will be employed by the writers to justify Lorca not only being given another command but command of Starfleet's most advanced starship with its most revolutionary new form of propulsion.
It's actually IN-character for Lorca to do this 180. His only goal is to win the war, his only fear is to lose his command. The admiral will flag him for rehabilitation if she gets back, so it'd be convenient for him if his problem would solve just like that. Cornwells bad fortune would be Lorcas good fortune here.
T'Kuvma's whole plan depended on his correct assessment of how The Federation would react to the situation he set up.
Unfortunately, he couldn't predict as correctly, how all the other Great Houses would react or that someone else would be clever enough to manipulate that same situation to their advantage.
(of course, he didn't plan on his own premature death either)
As an outcast he had a false hope in being able to unite all the Klingon Houses by first gathering the lesser Houses together, that and having the first klingon ship with a working cloaking device (thanks to his father) was what he was pinning his success on...
But like any good religiously fanatical leader, he couldn't see beyond his own ego, and all the consequences of his actions.
I like this show (even though I had great reservations first along), I just wish that they had not chosen to so completely and drastically, change the 'known look' of almost EVERYTHING, Just Because They Could.
It certainly would not have been so horrible to have given us a CGI upgraded "canon" D-7 or at the very least, called that flying triangle T*U*R*D, a different class of Klingon ship.
They need to stop trying so hard to be "different".
While many aspects of the TOS veneer certainly needed to be adapted to the 2017 ambience, not all of it did.
The JJ-movies certainly had the right idea, although at times even they went a bit too far.
(as in ostentatious)
Lorca is obviously a very different person than he was before the "incident" that caused the loss of his first ship and crew.
(ala Commodore Decker)
But, it's also quite apparent that he was always very good at manipulating people to get what he wants...
One doesn't learn that skill in one fell swoop.
I would would not be surprised if we eventually see flashbacks to his previous demeanor that got him a Captaincy.
Remember Burnham is the main character for this series, so Lorca will most definitely take a fall by the end of the season...
And most likely by her hand.
As an Original Trekkie Before It Was Cool To Be So,
(not to mention before most folks around here were born)
I'm more torn over my reactions toward this shows look, than I am over its depiction of the characters.
That's why "OTHER" was my choice for this poll.
STO Member since February 2009. I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born! Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
T'Kuvma's whole plan depended on his correct assessment of how The Federation would react to the situation he set up.
Unfortunately, he couldn't predict as correctly, how all the other Great Houses would react or that someone else would be clever enough to manipulate that same situation to their advantage.
(of course, he didn't plan on his own premature death either)
As an outcast he had a false hope in being able to unite all the Klingon Houses by first gathering the lesser Houses together, that and having the first klingon ship with a working cloaking device (thanks to his father) was what he was pinning his success on...
But like any good religiously fanatical leader, he couldn't see beyond his own ego, and all the consequences of his actions.
I like this show (even though I had great reservations first along), I just wish that they had not chosen to so completely and drastically, change the 'known look' of almost EVERYTHING, Just Because They Could.
It certainly would not have been so horrible to have given us a CGI upgraded "canon" D-7 or at the very least, called that flying triangle T*U*R*D, a different class of Klingon ship.
They need to stop trying so hard to be "different".
While many aspects of the TOS veneer certainly needed to be adapted to the 2017 ambience, not all of it did.
The JJ-movies certainly had the right idea, although at times even they went a bit too far.
(as in ostentatious)
Lorca is obviously a very different person than he was before the "incident" that caused the loss of his first ship and crew.
(ala Commodore Decker)
But, it's also quite apparent that he was always very good at manipulating people to get what he wants...
One doesn't learn that skill in one fell swoop.
I would would not be surprised if we eventually see flashbacks to his previous demeanor that got him a Captaincy.
Remember Burnham is the main character for this series, so Lorca will most definitely take a fall by the end of the season...
And most likely by her hand.
As an Original Trekkie Before It Was Cool To Be So,
(not to mention before most folks around here were born)
I'm more torn over my reactions toward this shows look, than I am over its depiction of the characters.
That's why "OTHER" was my choice for this poll.
On the matter of klingon appearance, there could very well be a twist to that.
If you recall, during the Enteprise-era there was that augment-virus the klingons unleashed onto themselves. DIS shows us "pure" klingons, but the remaining victims of the augment-crisis should still be around. Plus, there are hints to further eugenic experiments aboard Discovery, and there might very well be a klingon spy aboard.
And on Burnham vs. Lorca; I think there could be at least one twist to that too. Burnham might oppose Lorca at some point, but he might use her being in a very difficult position to his advantage, turning what *will* (haha, Will, get it?) become known as the Pegasus-incident on its head. Riker followed his captain out of inexperience and naivity, Burnham might unwillingly follow Lorca to stay out of imprisonment. He kinda has her by the ... "balls". This would also add a very interesting dynamic to the entire cast. Discovery plays out the "cause and effect"-card heavily. Burnham is the infamous first mutineer of Starfleet, but what if Lorca goes so far that Discovery's crew has to make a similar decision lateron? It also makes sense it'd never come up again throughout Trek, because the Pegasus-incident was one of the most classified things in Starfleet as well, and only Riker and his former captain and very very few other admirals knew the truth.
Just my thoughts though. It's still early into the show, making such specific predictions usually goes nowhere.
They were already mocking and going to dismiss him because Shenzhou was not considered a threat. They might have destroyed Shenzhou out of frustration anyway, but without a federation fleet they'd have completely ignored T'Kuvma, getting back to their feuds.
Wrong timeline:
- when they arrive, they start to mock him for his and his followers lower social status - and it's mainly done by Kol.
- he pushes back against them. His demonstration of strength, charisma, commitment, vision of unified Klingon Empire, information about cloaking device impress some leaders of the Houses and win him a modicum of respect. At this point he already starts winning over them. Kol is pissed that some of others do not share his views on T'Kuvma as a fool and effs off.
- T'Kuvma then offers them basically what they already want - a big war, an opportunity for causing death and destruction, while simultaneously speechifying how the Federation way of life sucks and how being Klingon is superior to that. It is at this point the Klingon leaders ask him about the threat - they start to like his idea, but still have doubts. But they take him already more seriously at that moment then in the beginning.
- At this point T'Kuvma already knows that Federation ships are coming due to long-range sensors data ("my lord, the long-range sensors show the movement just as you predicted" - it was no coincidence that Starfleet arrived just when he finishes speaking) and times the grand finale of his speech just for this moment. It makes even more impression: here is your threat, they have much more ships than this one = they are a somewhat worthy adversary to test the Klingon strength on.
- Then as a final touch he allows Starfleet to hail them and basically discredit themselves by delivering the message of peace, as Starfleet always does. It is the final straw, which wins over heads of Houses entirely.
My point was that if Shenzhou wouldn't have called for reinforcements or none would have been available he would have had no trumpcard and eventually wouldn't have been able to convince enough councilmembers to stick together.
And my actual point was that this is not exactly untypical for klingons. Romulans are much better known for manipulation, but klingons do this very well too. At war, nothing is more honorable than victory. Some houses of the klingon high council have always been deceptive and manipulative to achieve their goals. Even the honorable general Chang was involved in a scheme to get rid of his chancellor, also blaming it on the federation to keep the tensions between both powers as high as possible in order to not have a klingon empire that's without an equal enemy. He was clearly acting as a conservative klingon, even though some might find his acts "romulan".
My point was that if Shenzhou wouldn't have called for reinforcements or none would have been available he would have had no trumpcard and eventually wouldn't have been able to convince enough councilmembers to stick together.
If Shenzhou wouldn't have called for reinforcements - he would not have activated the Kahless beacon to call the Great Houses: they do it only after they detect Starfleet reinforcements starting to move in.
I'm sure he had some contingency plan in case Shenzou decided to wait out - like, for instance, crippling Shenzou, so they would have had to call for help.
Maybe the reason why Lorca is being portrayed as a d*** is due to plans to get rid of him either by being imprisoned or killed. If we had Picard killed off and Riker take over in Best of Both Worlds, then lots of fans would have been upset. However, if Lorca is removed from Discovery, then there would be some cheering.
I would have preferred Riker as Captain from that point on.
My point was that if Shenzhou wouldn't have called for reinforcements or none would have been available he would have had no trumpcard and eventually wouldn't have been able to convince enough councilmembers to stick together.
If Shenzhou wouldn't have called for reinforcements - he would not have activated the Kahless beacon to call the Great Houses: they do it only after they detect Starfleet reinforcements starting to move in.
I'm sure he had some contingency plan in case Shenzou decided to wait out - like, for instance, crippling Shenzou, so they would have had to call for help.
Yeah but how is all of that not klingon?
Klingons are a warrior-race first, loyal and honorable second. You're dealing with a secular race of deicidists that might play dead just to kill you if you get too close. You're not going to survive to say "They deceived me!" - they earned their honor in the field by killing you and living (or if they died too, they found their honorable death).
As honest as they are WHEN talking face-to-face to their actual FRIENDS (and still there will be TNG-klingons that are quite the opposite), in confrontations and during war they show their true nature.
They have always been like that. It took a crippling disaster to their empire to make them start peace-talks with the federation instead of third parties like the organians.
TNG and especially DS9 made them more relateable as in more close to the audience so we'd get to know them better. They can be enjoyable and great companions, definately. But they're also not all like Worf or Martok by a longshot.
Worf in particular is a very much "tamed" klingon. He *can* fight really well, and is more easily provoked than everybody else, but he lived 90% of his life among humans, being raised by human parents and without contact to other klingons.
All he learned about klingons during that time was out of folklore, historical documentation, through words and opinions of others and books, basically. He liked the ideals of the honorable klingon, but that's the in-the-books-version and not the actual-klingon-in-the-field. That's why during the events of redemption he is a really awkward wannabe-klingon while among humans he was always THE klingon. His heart is klingon, but his mind is truly not.
Lots of viewers seem to have an issue with Lorca being the only one who survived the destruction of the Bonham. I'm beinging to think, maybe he died as well.
In this episode, Lorca freaks out when Admiral Deathflags touches a peculiar triangle shaped scar. You know, Terran Agonizers are kinda triangular...
What if the event that caused Mirror Lorca to cross over also resulted in the destruction of the Bonham and her crew? What if Mirror Lorca is just doing what he always did to survive in the Terran Empire? When he says, "Don't take my ship, it's all I have." he could be extremely literal. He could be a being stranded in a strange universe, living another man's life.
I don't remember Kirk ever sleeping with a superior officer to get what he wants.
He slept with quite a few alien beauties to get what he wanted, and I have zero doubt if he needed to do so with a superior officer to get his way, he would have.
Actually, he used his charm to get the mission done....like in wink of an eye, he had to get the Skalos queen's trust, so he could try to get the Enterprise out of their control.
That's why the vulcan extremists are a *minority*. It's not their entire species, nor is it a majority of them.
For now all the Vulcans they showed demonstrate different degrees of such attitude with the only exception of Sarek - looks a bit too much for so called minority.
Pop quiz: who was the first Vulcan(in real world episode release order) to treat everyone not Vulcan as an inferior life form?
If your answer is anything other than Spock, you should rewatch the TV show.
What i remember of Enterprise with the Vulcan terrorists, the Syrrannites? They weren't terrorists but they were forced to act like terrorists due to Administrator V'Las and the Vulcan High Command who were basically a Military group that ran Vulcan at the time, something similar to a dictatorship. V'Las had all the technology, information and numbers on his side which made it all the more harder for the Syrrannites to stay in one location for a very long time for fear of being killed because of the value they represent as a threat to High Command rather than Vulcan as a whole.
The Syrrannites want to bring back Surak's teachings, the original teachings. They wanted change to come to Vulcan by giving up these warmongering ways which is what caused the massive death and destruction in the first place in the 4th century and to follow a more peaceful and logical existence free of military rule. However even the Syrrannites were not entirely convinced non-vulcans can be trusted being on Vulcan, but that is a long way from Vulcans using themselves as bombs to commit acts of terrorism.
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What i remember of Enterprise with the Vulcan terrorists, the Syrrannites? They weren't terrorists but they were forced to act like terrorists due to Administrator V'Las and the Vulcan High Command who were basically a Military group that ran Vulcan at the time, something similar to a dictatorship. V'Las had all the technology, information and numbers on his side which made it all the more harder for the Syrrannites to stay in one location for a very long time for fear of being killed because of the value they represent as a threat to High Command rather than Vulcan as a whole.
The Syrrannites want to bring back Surak's teachings, the original teachings. They wanted change to come to Vulcan by giving up these warmongering ways which is what caused the massive death and destruction in the first place in the 4th century and to follow a more peaceful and logical existence free of military rule. However even the Syrrannites were not entirely convinced non-vulcans can be trusted being on Vulcan, but that is a long way from Vulcans using themselves as bombs to commit acts of terrorism.
Was it not because Romulans? I remember seeing a Romulan among the Vulcans. I could see Romulans agents being the reason for the Military group.
Was it not because Romulans? I remember seeing a Romulan among the Vulcans. I could see Romulans agents being the reason for the Military group.
Administrator V'Las was the head of the Vulcan High Command in the mid-22nd century. In that capacity, he entered into a conspiracy with Talok, a deep-cover Romulan operative, to facilitate the Vulcan invasion of Andoria and the subjugation of the Vulcan people by the Romulans. They planned to attack Andoria, tricking the Vulcan High Council into believing that the Andorians were developing a planet-destroying weapon based on Xindi technology.
As these plans were developing, agents loyal to V'Las bombed Earth's embassy and framed the Syrrannite T'Pau for the act. The Syrrannites' base was subsequently destroyed by the Vulcan High Command to cover up their involvement in the bombing of the embassy.
During the Vulcan attack on Andoria, Archer and T'Pau brought the writings of Surak, the Kir'Shara, into the High Command's headquarters. The writings within the Kir'Shara justified the Syrranites' position and enabled Minister Kuvak to challenge V'Las' increasingly illogical behavior that was threatening war with both Andor and Earth. The this resulted in V'Las being fired and kicked off the Vulcan Reformation, initiating a widespread return to the "true teachings" of Surak among the Vulcans.
Comments
1. So in TRIBBLE Vulcans en-masse are logic fascist, who clearly despise "illogical" species to the point, where the most extreme of them are ready to commit acts of terror against civilian targets. I guess now we know, why they so readily adopted the shoot first approach to the Klingon problem.
Them going behind the Federation council back and other member species (which btw are not only humans) to conduct unauthorized negotiations is a nice touch to that picture.
Yeah, that viper's nest they show Federation to be is surely a vision for better future, right.
2. Oh, silly me - when the episode began, I thought that they will finally show some redeeming qualities of Lorca, which could give at least some motivation for such a person's appointment to high commanding post in Starfleet. Nah, half-way through they turn around and show him again as a shady manipulator ans then eventually have him betray his friend. Looks like Lorca got his command the way Kelvin Kirk got his - nepotism.
3. The Klingons behave more and more like they are genetically modified ugly Romulans.
Vulcans were depicted in a similar fashion on Enterprise, they were worse than that at times. Also don't forget that these terrorists are a minority on Vulcan. In the Enterprise-era they were openly hostile towards the andorians and almost went to war with Earth as well.
Redeeming qualities? I fully expect Lorca to eventually become an anti-hero if not a villain. The basic setup for both options is there. And it was kinda obvious since the beginning that there's something not quite right about him.
No, the klingons behave like they were thrown into their councilmember-feuds after Donatu V and while watching the federation expanding some klingons were probably just trying to figure out how to unify the houses against a common enemy. T'Kuvma was really, really lucky that Starfleet was so predictable that shortly after contact with the Shenzhou an entire fleet showed up, conveniently when he had the attention of the councilmembers.
Keep in mind that Praxis didn't explode yet. The klingons are very mistrustful to the federation at that time. The actual retcon about them is not their culture, it's where they got their cloaking-technology from (granted, T'Kuvma could have been the one that has worked with romulans to get it, but in that case he'd have done that on his own and not in the name of the empire, while originally it was implied that klingons and romulans had a short-lived alliance to exchange technologies).
Also, the writers apparently played Klingon Academy and remembered that Chang considers everything on a warship a weapon, as T'Kuvma just used a cloaked ship to destroy the Europa.
And I was not talking only about the terrorist, when it comes to Discovery's Vulcan fascism. Both the Head of Expedition and Vulcan admiral basically imply Vulcan's superiority to other more emotional species, that they can not be as good as the Vulcans - and that's exactly what fascism is about. The Head of Expedition treats Sarek as same weirdo for thinking that members of the other species could really be on par with the Vulcans.
There is a big difference between "something not right" and bat-TRIBBLE crazy, And this could not be attributed just to his trauma - you have to have some prior psychotic tendencies to go that far, you don't go full Hannibal Lector overnight. And to become such manipulator as Lorca you need a LOT of practice.
And this does not make much sense from in-universe point of view. Starfleet and Federation have certain principles, which their personnel is required to uphold. You won't get appointed to a senior officer position if you completely lack any signs of ethical behaviour and demonstrate rather flexible moral principles. Everything Lorca has done to this point goes against everything what Federation stands on. It is impossible that such behavioural tendencies were not present before - and the only way how he could get that up far the ranks is if Cornwell covered his backside on the most of his way as she was doing now.
For Lorca to become a senoir Starfleet officer he NEEDS to have a better side to him aside from his professional qualities and track record.
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Yes, it is exactly their culture that is being changed - and it's exactly the greatest problem of TRIBBLE Klingons, not the visual re-design: most people would have gotten over Klingons and their ships looking differently if they behaved themselves like Klingons. But they don't - they are a combination of space orcs and Romulans. There is one species in canon that is shown to be inclined to:
- constant backstabbing among themselves and with others
- deceit and hypocrisy as modus operandi
- active use of manipulation to further their goals
And this species is not Klingons.
That's why the vulcan extremists are a *minority*. It's not their entire species, nor is it a majority of them.
Umm... almost everybody currently bit**ing about klingons on DIS does it because the D7 looks so radically different while I've read almost nothing on the character of the klingons so far.
And aside from making them more extreme in their attitudes, they're perfectly klingon. T'Kuvma was an exception as he took the barge of the dead too literal, but he tried to rule his house different from others anyway.
Constant backstabbing is something klingon houses had to deal with before and might deal with again post Nemesis.
Ever heard of the house of Duras? The House of Duras basically did *nothing but* manipulate the hell out of everybody else. They staged a civil-war on Qo'nos to take over the council and destroyed the name of the house of Mogh just to cover up their own crimes.
Even the episode "The House of Quark" comes to mind... Quark uncovered a klingon buying himself into a better status. That particular klingon (D'Ghor) has predecessors that are apparently a councilmember in DIS and are known as deceivers. Kol (rumor has it Kor is from that house too) draws parallels to Kor. Kor denied Martok a warrior's life as Martok was born to a house with low status. Kol treats Voq' the same way and worse because Voq' doesn't even have a named house and is an albino klingon. And a klingon named 'the albino' was an old enemy of Kor too.
You see. There are callbacks. They are not re-inventing the wheel here.
I don't get all the criticism Lorca gets here, if anything he's becoming much more likable and relatable to me. Stop observing him through Picard tainted glasses. Additionally, consider the ship's registry number - NCC-1031 and consider the possibility of this meaning what we have been speculating for it to mean.
Can't believe how judgmental people are with just a few episodes in the show (although I really should know better). Same thing happened with Enterprise, the whining was so loud it was heard in Gre'thor and then when the show picked up pace and got cancelled, those same people were bawling about being robbed of opportunity to see the Earth - Romulan war, etc.
And it is a pattern with this show, which provides almost everyone and everything with some ulterior agenda with few exceptions - it is not just some weird deviation, it is the major undertone of show's story-telling.
There is a difference between a number of exceptions with majority of the species demonstrating other behavioural patterns, and the same line of conduct being shown again and again and again... It goes from the leaders of the Houses to ordinary warriors. Basically Voq was the only exception to this rule, but, if the spy theory is true, in the end he too has fallen back to treachery as a way of life.
T'Kuvma's main non-Klingoness was not hos weird religious cult - it is actually within the realm of possibilities for Prime timeline Klingons. What stands out how ever is hos elaborate manipulative plan of tricking the Klingons and Federation into war with each other, again a typically Romulan behaviour prior.
For these Klingons war is not about glory and honour, territory and resources - it's about murder and destruction. They don't even use prisoners as slaves - they just torture them to death, not for information - just for the process.
These Klingons are ready to abandon any type of loyalty and honour, to break any oaths and promises for a price.
It applies to almost all the Klingons we see on screen, which makes it logical to assume that it is universal for their society in TRIBBLE's version.
T'Kuvma stands out because he opened his house to everybody, as birthright and status are a very important thing to klingons, not because of his "cult". Boreth is proof enough that while being a secular society, klingons do have mysticism.
And no, his idea of uniting the houses to fight a common enemy (a threat to the empire) is not romulan at all. As the klingon houses are mostly seperate from each other and only the LEADERS of the GREAT houses meet in the high council, they're mostly doing their own business. They all work for the empire in a way, but it's not like they're all automatically serving in the KDF.
T'Kuvma was also lucky that Shenzhou called for reinforcements as he expected, because if the fleet wouldn't have conveniently warped in T'Kuvma would have achieved nothing but remain to look like an idiot to the council.
And aside from all this, I got the impression that T'Kuvma genuinely wanted a unified klingon empire. He was not scheming, he had a cause.
Exactly. DIS is set long before the Praxis-incident, so klingons are not TNG-klingons yet, and even at that time they still have their feuds and coup d'etats.
The "highborn" basically do their own things (fighting their feuds ala Game of Thrones) for the most part.
Or he would have pointed out Federation's "cowardness" and "weakness" for refusing to take a stand and protect their territory. And that's now, when he is ready to share the cloak with those who'll follow him, it is time to punish the Federation for its weakness and protect the Klingon way of life from corrupting influence of Federation peaceful philosophy. (And of course to engage in TRIBBLE's Klingons' favourite activities - dealing death and destruction).
And then proceed to attack some target in Fed space to demonstrate his power.
In that case he would have looked like an idiot to the councilmembers even more. They might have even killed him for wasting their time.
They were already mocking and going to dismiss him because Shenzhou was not considered a threat. They might have destroyed Shenzhou out of frustration anyway, but without a federation fleet they'd have completely ignored T'Kuvma, getting back to their feuds.
The klingons might have been reimagined and repurposed, but they retain their actual character. Considering what happened between humans and klingons during the later Enterprise-era, trying to use the federation as a scapegoat to unify the houses against a common enemy is IN-character and lore-friendly. The klingons remember the federation as a dirty mixbag that includes humans, which lead to the augment-crisis afterall. Apart from the Hur'q, nothing was bringing the klingons so much trouble by then.
Well, whatever happens, I'm looking forward to finding out(soon I hope) how he blows up his previous command killing his entire crew to prevent capture and yet he survived. I wonder what kind of mental acrobatics will be employed by the writers to justify Lorca not only being given another command but command of Starfleet's most advanced starship with its most revolutionary new form of propulsion.
I support the Star Trek Battles channel.
It's actually IN-character for Lorca to do this 180. His only goal is to win the war, his only fear is to lose his command. The admiral will flag him for rehabilitation if she gets back, so it'd be convenient for him if his problem would solve just like that. Cornwells bad fortune would be Lorcas good fortune here.
Unfortunately, he couldn't predict as correctly, how all the other Great Houses would react or that someone else would be clever enough to manipulate that same situation to their advantage.
(of course, he didn't plan on his own premature death either)
As an outcast he had a false hope in being able to unite all the Klingon Houses by first gathering the lesser Houses together, that and having the first klingon ship with a working cloaking device (thanks to his father) was what he was pinning his success on...
But like any good religiously fanatical leader, he couldn't see beyond his own ego, and all the consequences of his actions.
I like this show (even though I had great reservations first along), I just wish that they had not chosen to so completely and drastically, change the 'known look' of almost EVERYTHING, Just Because They Could.
It certainly would not have been so horrible to have given us a CGI upgraded "canon" D-7 or at the very least, called that flying triangle T*U*R*D, a different class of Klingon ship.
They need to stop trying so hard to be "different".
While many aspects of the TOS veneer certainly needed to be adapted to the 2017 ambience, not all of it did.
The JJ-movies certainly had the right idea, although at times even they went a bit too far.
(as in ostentatious)
Lorca is obviously a very different person than he was before the "incident" that caused the loss of his first ship and crew.
(ala Commodore Decker)
But, it's also quite apparent that he was always very good at manipulating people to get what he wants...
One doesn't learn that skill in one fell swoop.
I would would not be surprised if we eventually see flashbacks to his previous demeanor that got him a Captaincy.
Remember Burnham is the main character for this series, so Lorca will most definitely take a fall by the end of the season...
And most likely by her hand.
As an Original Trekkie Before It Was Cool To Be So,
(not to mention before most folks around here were born)
I'm more torn over my reactions toward this shows look, than I am over its depiction of the characters.
That's why "OTHER" was my choice for this poll.
I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born!
Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
On the matter of klingon appearance, there could very well be a twist to that.
If you recall, during the Enteprise-era there was that augment-virus the klingons unleashed onto themselves. DIS shows us "pure" klingons, but the remaining victims of the augment-crisis should still be around. Plus, there are hints to further eugenic experiments aboard Discovery, and there might very well be a klingon spy aboard.
And on Burnham vs. Lorca; I think there could be at least one twist to that too. Burnham might oppose Lorca at some point, but he might use her being in a very difficult position to his advantage, turning what *will* (haha, Will, get it?) become known as the Pegasus-incident on its head. Riker followed his captain out of inexperience and naivity, Burnham might unwillingly follow Lorca to stay out of imprisonment. He kinda has her by the ... "balls". This would also add a very interesting dynamic to the entire cast. Discovery plays out the "cause and effect"-card heavily. Burnham is the infamous first mutineer of Starfleet, but what if Lorca goes so far that Discovery's crew has to make a similar decision lateron? It also makes sense it'd never come up again throughout Trek, because the Pegasus-incident was one of the most classified things in Starfleet as well, and only Riker and his former captain and very very few other admirals knew the truth.
Just my thoughts though. It's still early into the show, making such specific predictions usually goes nowhere.
- when they arrive, they start to mock him for his and his followers lower social status - and it's mainly done by Kol.
- he pushes back against them. His demonstration of strength, charisma, commitment, vision of unified Klingon Empire, information about cloaking device impress some leaders of the Houses and win him a modicum of respect. At this point he already starts winning over them. Kol is pissed that some of others do not share his views on T'Kuvma as a fool and effs off.
- T'Kuvma then offers them basically what they already want - a big war, an opportunity for causing death and destruction, while simultaneously speechifying how the Federation way of life sucks and how being Klingon is superior to that. It is at this point the Klingon leaders ask him about the threat - they start to like his idea, but still have doubts. But they take him already more seriously at that moment then in the beginning.
- At this point T'Kuvma already knows that Federation ships are coming due to long-range sensors data ("my lord, the long-range sensors show the movement just as you predicted" - it was no coincidence that Starfleet arrived just when he finishes speaking) and times the grand finale of his speech just for this moment. It makes even more impression: here is your threat, they have much more ships than this one = they are a somewhat worthy adversary to test the Klingon strength on.
- Then as a final touch he allows Starfleet to hail them and basically discredit themselves by delivering the message of peace, as Starfleet always does. It is the final straw, which wins over heads of Houses entirely.
And my actual point was that this is not exactly untypical for klingons. Romulans are much better known for manipulation, but klingons do this very well too. At war, nothing is more honorable than victory. Some houses of the klingon high council have always been deceptive and manipulative to achieve their goals. Even the honorable general Chang was involved in a scheme to get rid of his chancellor, also blaming it on the federation to keep the tensions between both powers as high as possible in order to not have a klingon empire that's without an equal enemy. He was clearly acting as a conservative klingon, even though some might find his acts "romulan".
I'm sure he had some contingency plan in case Shenzou decided to wait out - like, for instance, crippling Shenzou, so they would have had to call for help.
I would have preferred Riker as Captain from that point on.
Yeah but how is all of that not klingon?
Klingons are a warrior-race first, loyal and honorable second. You're dealing with a secular race of deicidists that might play dead just to kill you if you get too close. You're not going to survive to say "They deceived me!" - they earned their honor in the field by killing you and living (or if they died too, they found their honorable death).
As honest as they are WHEN talking face-to-face to their actual FRIENDS (and still there will be TNG-klingons that are quite the opposite), in confrontations and during war they show their true nature.
They have always been like that. It took a crippling disaster to their empire to make them start peace-talks with the federation instead of third parties like the organians.
TNG and especially DS9 made them more relateable as in more close to the audience so we'd get to know them better. They can be enjoyable and great companions, definately. But they're also not all like Worf or Martok by a longshot.
Worf in particular is a very much "tamed" klingon. He *can* fight really well, and is more easily provoked than everybody else, but he lived 90% of his life among humans, being raised by human parents and without contact to other klingons.
All he learned about klingons during that time was out of folklore, historical documentation, through words and opinions of others and books, basically. He liked the ideals of the honorable klingon, but that's the in-the-books-version and not the actual-klingon-in-the-field. That's why during the events of redemption he is a really awkward wannabe-klingon while among humans he was always THE klingon. His heart is klingon, but his mind is truly not.
So, it's a "how many moons does Vulcan have?" situation.
In this episode, Lorca freaks out when Admiral Deathflags touches a peculiar triangle shaped scar. You know, Terran Agonizers are kinda triangular...
What if the event that caused Mirror Lorca to cross over also resulted in the destruction of the Bonham and her crew? What if Mirror Lorca is just doing what he always did to survive in the Terran Empire? When he says, "Don't take my ship, it's all I have." he could be extremely literal. He could be a being stranded in a strange universe, living another man's life.
Actually, he used his charm to get the mission done....like in wink of an eye, he had to get the Skalos queen's trust, so he could try to get the Enterprise out of their control.
If your answer is anything other than Spock, you should rewatch the TV show.
My character Tsin'xing
The Syrrannites want to bring back Surak's teachings, the original teachings. They wanted change to come to Vulcan by giving up these warmongering ways which is what caused the massive death and destruction in the first place in the 4th century and to follow a more peaceful and logical existence free of military rule. However even the Syrrannites were not entirely convinced non-vulcans can be trusted being on Vulcan, but that is a long way from Vulcans using themselves as bombs to commit acts of terrorism.
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
Was it not because Romulans? I remember seeing a Romulan among the Vulcans. I could see Romulans agents being the reason for the Military group.
As these plans were developing, agents loyal to V'Las bombed Earth's embassy and framed the Syrrannite T'Pau for the act. The Syrrannites' base was subsequently destroyed by the Vulcan High Command to cover up their involvement in the bombing of the embassy.
During the Vulcan attack on Andoria, Archer and T'Pau brought the writings of Surak, the Kir'Shara, into the High Command's headquarters. The writings within the Kir'Shara justified the Syrranites' position and enabled Minister Kuvak to challenge V'Las' increasingly illogical behavior that was threatening war with both Andor and Earth. The this resulted in V'Las being fired and kicked off the Vulcan Reformation, initiating a widespread return to the "true teachings" of Surak among the Vulcans.