This is what I was thinking as well when I went into a PvP yesterday. I knew full well that I wouldn't do very much, though I really tried. Like reyan, I suck at PvP and I don't have a good PvP build. But I did hold my own some. I think there were only a couple vet PvPers in there who kept vaping me.
Still. I only did it for the Endeavor and to say I tried. Never again.
As I said in a previous post, I came here to play STO, not other players. Besides, if I have to have a build that vaporizes things in one shot, no thanks.
PvP Vape ships aren't that great in PVE traditionally, unless you know how to build a good skill tree that will support both methods of play (someone like SOB).
So you probably out DPS those PvP spike dmg ships in a PvE setting.
But I get your gist.
I just skipped it altogether. Used to really enjoy pvp. But meh, I didn't think it was worth the time. Just did Melting Pot again for week 3 rewards and upgraded a few things.
Not like missing the endeavor reward is the end of the world. *shrug*
Just my opinion here, but I'd rather see these endeavors focus more on the dead pve queues.
This way we can get people playing those seldom run PvE missions. We've only gotten a handful that asked you to play a specific PvE queue.
They should drop the endeavors that ask for things like 25000 dmg (insert energy type) and replace them with pve missions.
imo
Yeah, missing endeavors isn't the end of the world. The rewards are mediocre at best for them. I haven't really played since I got a look at the new seasons stuff. So far I have to say, the new season has provided content that is less than engaging. Just more go here, pew that and move on. The only thing mildly engaging in the whole thing, having to manually target the shuttle in Beach Assault.
Is this Endeavor still broken? Just ran it w/a fleetmate, and and didn't give anything.
No..Its not broken..Just the conditions for the endevor drop werent correctly stated. You have to win(stupid idea)...
I actually had a (KDF) player challenge me while I waited for my "Melting Pot" mission to come off cooldown... Guy was properly set up for resists and for Pvp but didnt get the endevor.So my as thanks for giving me a good match I challenged him back took of my shields and said "Shoot me".. So now we both completed the Endevor...Not all PVPers are bad guys :P
Out of morbid curiosity I decided to queue for a PvP match. Well, there were clearly some PvP'ers (three players in oposing team all part of the same fleet) who realised that scores of PvP noobs would be playing for the Endeavour prize.
The team I was in was one-shotted to oblivion.
I'll add here that I know I absolutely suck at PvP. I knew before I took part. But those participants who were doing it for the first time?
[Team] killed@quickly: Okay.... I'm pretty sure no ship should do that much DPS.
[Team] Teammember@pointlessPvP: I just got vaporized from full health and shields in half a second
(player names obviously removed)
Yeah - that'll be the last time THEY do PvP. And also served to remind me why I don't do it.
I hate to say it, but there will be those matches that are going to be practically futile from the start, especially when you know names and which side they are on, it's not worth taking them on. Not every match will be like that but some people that mesh extremely well in PvP on one team can easily own the battlefield and it's just better to let them vape/one shot you and you doing nothing than trying to get around them which probably won't ever happen.
But this reinforces another point in a similar way i see Pve'ers using DPS calculators to get those mega dps hits and swoop through random stf's and leaving nothing for everyone else. The power creep is incredible between those casuals from those dedicated players.
That's my point though. Those other players in the team almost definitely didn't know that they were going to be up against a team of players who could one-shot vape them; heck 'I' didn't really realise until the other four players in the team died the moment they engaged the other team (and I didn't last much longer either).
My point is, though, that this is damned shame. I'd say it's fair to assume that those other four players in the team I was in will never actually realise that "not every match will be like that" - I'm fairly confident in my assumption that those other four players will likely never touch PvP again.
I certainly wouldn't call that "fair." Are modern players really so completely spoiled by fancy-pants "matchmaking" systems that they can't imagine other players being much better than themselves?
But, some players will inevitably be happier if they never touch PvP again.
Yes, the players are spoiled by such things. Which, these aren't a bad thing. It makes PvP more casual friendly, that's all.
The main thing that turns most STO players off a PvP, is that it is not easy. You aren't facing scripted NPC HP sacks that are easy to kill. You're facing another player. This means that you aren't facing an easy to read scripted NPC, making every match some thing new to deal with.
In PvE you can literally slap any build together and still kill the enemy. All this means is that it takes longer to do so.
PvP on the other hand requires time, effort and thought.
See the difference?
PvP is not for those that are not willing to put the effort forth to become better. Where as in PvE, anyone can be good, with any build.
That's a matter of perspective. Obviously, it's impossible to always win. Someone has to lose every game, so winning can't be easy unless the opponent is bad player or intentionally trying to throw the match. Then again, since STO PvP rewards the same win or lose, it can nonetheless be said that getting the end reward is easy.
It depends on what the player wants to accomplish.
That's a matter of perspective. Obviously, it's impossible to always win. Someone has to lose every game, so winning can't be easy unless the opponent is bad player or intentionally trying to throw the match. Then again, since STO PvP rewards the same win or lose, it can nonetheless be said that getting the end reward is easy.
It depends on what the player wants to accomplish.
The lines between loser and winner in PvP can be blurred quite easily, for example you can win a lot of small victories against a very tough opponent, but it's not enough to win the war, in this case both sides won in PvP, there aren't any losers in a situation like that. and what about rounds where combat grinds in a nasty war over a specific point and it ends in a stalemate when the timer runs out and no one has the advantage?
The black and white idea of a loser and a winner in PvP is outdated.
T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW. Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
But that's what I mean. If it's someone's first time doing a competitive activity, wouldn't they expect there's a chance to encounter opponents who are much more experienced and/or better equipped than themselves? Shouldn't they expect that? Why would you assume those players couldn't realise it? Or that not every match will be like that?
They should definitely expect that. When you enter a competitive event for the first time, even if you had some kind of training (PvE here, for all that's worth), you should expect that you are weaker and odds of losing are above 50%, and as a corollary
Given a random distribution of players, you have 50/50 chance of being on the "better" team. Premades are of course another thing entirely. However, of all the pug runs I did during the endeavor I never saw a premade team, just a few obviously high-skill individuals.
you should expect to be on the weaker team, because even given a random distribution of players, one player is not random: you. And if you are inexperienced, odds are you will drag your team down. Even if you are king of the PvE queues, you should expect PvP to be a different thing altogether.
And that, in and of itself, is not bad. Everybody should be aware that playing something with others, you probably will have to learn to compete (unless it's a game nobody played before). Just the way it is. Only there are two problems here (not exclusive to playing STO):
1) The "n00b, git gud" people. Sure, if somebody isn't aware of the fact that he'll start off weak and complains about broken game or similar, you have a point. But pointing out how awesome you are and how suckish others are will not earn enough points for the n00bs to retry and git gud in the first place.
2) There must be a way of learning. And while it is possible to do this on your own, it is hard, very hard. Experienced players have years of knowledge, how things interact, learning from each other, talking to each other. Catching up on this knowledge won't take as much time as accruing it did in the first place, but it still will take a lot of time. What helps are helpful players which will take the time and explain stuff; but what also helps is playing against opponents of similar strength. Even if you have the danger of falling into some kind of "group thinking" without some better players explaining or showing to you, why this perceived uber build you use here will get you slapped right and left against better ones. Apart from the fact that winning once in a while is motivating so you'll continue to play, getting vaped in 1 second will not help you get better at all (not blaming this on the "vapers"), because whatever you correctly improve in your game, you won't really see results.
My mother was an epohh and my father smelled of tulaberries
oh, that's the EASY one. They want to complete the endeavour, and never touch it again.
and I can't blame anyone who feels that way.
You know, I would not mind going for the Endeavor as presented. Make an honest attempt at PvP and get a little prize.
Problem is starting a match, dying, and then respawning on top of 3 Exothermic Induction Fields, 3 Cold Fusion Flashes and 3 Seismic Agitations. Someone on my team even commented on the spawn camping and the reply was "you are just mad you are losing". Well, I guess. It would be nice to win. I'm honestly more irritated that the only action I'm taking is clicking "respawn".
I'm just not a PvP sort of player, at least, not in STO. I'm far to fond of impractical and "gimmicky" builds to be drawn to PvP. I'm not even an "elite" player. I'm happy being a "scrub" and using missiles and tethered quantum mines (not on the same ship though).
Spawncamping players and using premades to intentionally decimate a group of less than 60 noob puggers are valid complaints that should be addressed if people want PVP to grow. And they can fix both. Use the design from core assault to make spawns inaccessible. Fix the broken matching system. Create a restricted match system with limited gear and traits.
Of course, they will also have to do something about the forum warriors who bash and undermine PVP at every turn, driving players away and creating a sense of majority = superiority that is patently false almost to the point that it is comical. I’m not sure what the cure for the PVEers feelings of male inadequacy is though. Maybe they could have an option that tells the player they are winning no matter what? Or have the bridge officers pop up with text that says “Good Job” and “You earned a trophy for participating.” It would have to be something good, and Cryptic may end up having to hire a psychologists.
Problem is starting a match, dying, and then respawning on top of 3 Exothermic Induction Fields, 3 Cold Fusion Flashes and 3 Seismic Agitations. Someone on my team even commented on the spawn camping and the reply was "you are just mad you are losing". Well, I guess. It would be nice to win. I'm honestly more irritated that the only action I'm taking is clicking "respawn".
Think of spawn camping. The other team is directing stating they have low enough self-esteem and confidence, that they need a crutch to stand on. It's the same thing with those that use words like, "noob" and "git gud." You just have to feel sorry for them, because this is the only ego-boost they can get. I'm not trying to flame, or shame, anyone here. Just stating the truth of the matter. It's a psychological addiction, they need it to feel better about themselves.
Though, I do hope that the dev's take this under advisement and institute some sort of spawn point protection. To remove their ability to do.
2) There must be a way of learning. And while it is possible to do this on your own, it is hard, very hard. Experienced players have years of knowledge, how things interact, learning from each other, talking to each other. Catching up on this knowledge won't take as much time as accruing it did in the first place, but it still will take a lot of time. What helps are helpful players which will take the time and explain stuff; but what also helps is playing against opponents of similar strength. Even if you have the danger of falling into some kind of "group thinking" without some better players explaining or showing to you, why this perceived uber build you use here will get you slapped right and left against better ones. Apart from the fact that winning once in a while is motivating so you'll continue to play, getting vaped in 1 second will not help you get better at all (not blaming this on the "vapers"), because whatever you correctly improve in your game, you won't really see results.
There are players out there that will help. There is information all over about builds and such. The STO-Academy subsection is full of it. There is also reddit, plenty of information over there. So all that is available.
Finding people to practice against is actually EASY. I mean, SUPER EASY. Everyone has friends and/or fleet mates. It is not that hard to ASK other if they want to have a Private Challenge against you. Yes, for those that didn't know. There is a challenge function. You should see it when you right click another player or that players name/portrait.
The main thing to remember about PvP. A glass cannon PvE DPS build, makes you an easy target. PvP requires that long forgotten survival abilities and traits. These are seldom needed in PvE these days, so they are overlooked.
As queuing up for PvP. Yes, one should keep in mind, that they other player may be stronger than them. Even if you practice and work at getting better. That is the way of things. This is just simple understanding. However, it is just easier to blame something else, it makes it easier to overlook your own inadequacies and insecurities.
I remember years ago in Everquest 2, I created my Character on the 'Recommended' server. What I didn't realize until my Character was in the 20s, it was a PVP server!!! I got fragged a number of times. But, when you landed in a new area you had a 60 second immunity from being shot at. Not sure what the immunity time was that applied to rezzes. Specifically instituted to prevent this spawn camping BS.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
There are players out there that will help. There is information all over about builds and such. The STO-Academy subsection is full of it. There is also reddit, plenty of information over there. So all that is available.
Finding people to practice against is actually EASY. I mean, SUPER EASY. Everyone has friends and/or fleet mates. It is not that hard to ASK other if they want to have a Private Challenge against you. Yes, for those that didn't know. There is a challenge function. You should see it when you right click another player or that players name/portrait.
The main thing to remember about PvP. A glass cannon PvE DPS build, makes you an easy target. PvP requires that long forgotten survival abilities and traits. These are seldom needed in PvE these days, so they are overlooked.
As queuing up for PvP. Yes, one should keep in mind, that they other player may be stronger than them. Even if you practice and work at getting better. That is the way of things. This is just simple understanding. However, it is just easier to blame something else, it makes it easier to overlook your own inadequacies and insecurities.
I know about helpful players, I encountered enough, maybe my phrasing wasn't perfect. But "finding people to practice against is easy" - well, in theory. In practice, STO allows you to go alone too much. Maybe you don't even join a fleet. Maybe you do, but the fleet is more or less an equipment store without much interaction. And while this can be addressed as a fault by the STO system and by lazy players, if PvP players want their community to grow, they'll have to understand this phenomenon and adapt, Because "not being guilty of a problem" doesn't solve the problem.
As for Reddit et al.: yeah, but that shouldn't be a needed resource. Believe it or not, with all its popularity and users, many still don't go there. And from a gaming point of view, they shouldn't have to. Again, this is not necessarily the players' fault, but considering how few people apparently read patch notes and official statements at all, asking them to get their information from sources outside will not help.
I have no solution myself to any of this. And as a mathematician, I am prone myself to say "a solution exists, so this is not a problem anymore". So I am not helpful here at all, and well aware of that. But if we want PvP to grow - and I'd love a PvP where I can just pug and find people of approximately my level, whatever that may be - we need to be aware of these issues and the way things are. As it is, I am not interested in PvP at all, because 90% of bad apples have spoiled it for me. And I do know that most of the "hurr hurr, me gud, you noob, me spawncamp you" crowd may be very pitiful people I should not get angry about. But in the end this knowledge doesn't really increase my enjoyment.
(And if it did, I would only get enjoyment out of a perceived sense of superiority myself, very much the same thing as what I am feeling superior to, causing a logical paradox which will bend the space time continuum and give birth to missions nobody really wants to play.)
My mother was an epohh and my father smelled of tulaberries
There are players out there that will help. There is information all over about builds and such. The STO-Academy subsection is full of it. There is also reddit, plenty of information over there. So all that is available.
Finding people to practice against is actually EASY. I mean, SUPER EASY. Everyone has friends and/or fleet mates. It is not that hard to ASK other if they want to have a Private Challenge against you. Yes, for those that didn't know. There is a challenge function. You should see it when you right click another player or that players name/portrait.
The main thing to remember about PvP. A glass cannon PvE DPS build, makes you an easy target. PvP requires that long forgotten survival abilities and traits. These are seldom needed in PvE these days, so they are overlooked.
As queuing up for PvP. Yes, one should keep in mind, that they other player may be stronger than them. Even if you practice and work at getting better. That is the way of things. This is just simple understanding. However, it is just easier to blame something else, it makes it easier to overlook your own inadequacies and insecurities.
I know about helpful players, I encountered enough, maybe my phrasing wasn't perfect. But "finding people to practice against is easy" - well, in theory. In practice, STO allows you to go alone too much. Maybe you don't even join a fleet. Maybe you do, but the fleet is more or less an equipment store without much interaction. And while this can be addressed as a fault by the STO system and by lazy players, if PvP players want their community to grow, they'll have to understand this phenomenon and adapt, Because "not being guilty of a problem" doesn't solve the problem.
As for Reddit et al.: yeah, but that shouldn't be a needed resource. Believe it or not, with all its popularity and users, many still don't go there. And from a gaming point of view, they shouldn't have to. Again, this is not necessarily the players' fault, but considering how few people apparently read patch notes and official statements at all, asking them to get their information from sources outside will not help.
I have no solution myself to any of this. And as a mathematician, I am prone myself to say "a solution exists, so this is not a problem anymore". So I am not helpful here at all, and well aware of that. But if we want PvP to grow - and I'd love a PvP where I can just pug and find people of approximately my level, whatever that may be - we need to be aware of these issues and the way things are. As it is, I am not interested in PvP at all, because 90% of bad apples have spoiled it for me. And I do know that most of the "hurr hurr, me gud, you noob, me spawncamp you" crowd may be very pitiful people I should not get angry about. But in the end this knowledge doesn't really increase my enjoyment.
(And if it did, I would only get enjoyment out of a perceived sense of superiority myself, very much the same thing as what I am feeling superior to, causing a logical paradox which will bend the space time continuum and give birth to missions nobody really wants to play.)
I do admit, we haven't had any real team content since the pre-rep/lor Borg Elites. It's all been migrating to "BF@W everything and call it good." The few things that we have gotten since then, that require team play, are unpopular. Since they go against the solo-ability of the rest of the game.
This is why most people dislike PvP. It is not a BF@W environment. It's actually one of the most useless skills in PvP. It might help against a Carrier, perhaps a photonic fleet or something. But in general, it's not part of the core build. More just something you carry, just in case you might need it.
There is the main difference.
PvE is a good environment for BF@W and low survivablity.
PvP on the other hand, is more single target and high survivbility.
Which makes PvP a complete reversal of what almost everyone is use to.
And for those saying, "I tried it for the first time, just to get the Endeavor reward. Never again." You didn't try it at all, you merely showed up to get the participation reward, "Welcome to the No Captain left behind program. Thank you for your participation. Here is your Endeavor box."
You can't say you've tried it, until you've spent time doing it and attempting to get better at it. But if you wish to stay away from the competitive area of the game, which PvP is a part of. Then you should stay away from the Board(PvP) Races during the Summer Event and the competitive(PvP) elements of the Winter Event. But these offer decent rewards, even for losing. So that won't happen.
Which is one of the main problems with PvP at the moment. The reward for doing it isn't really worth bothering with.
I have no solution myself to any of this. And as a mathematician, I am prone myself to say "a solution exists, so this is not a problem anymore". So I am not helpful here at all, and well aware of that. But if we want PvP to grow - and I'd love a PvP where I can just pug and find people of approximately my level, whatever that may be - we need to be aware of these issues and the way things are. As it is, I am not interested in PvP at all, because 90% of bad apples have spoiled it for me. And I do know that most of the "hurr hurr, me gud, you noob, me spawncamp you" crowd may be very pitiful people I should not get angry about. But in the end this knowledge doesn't really increase my enjoyment.
A solution does exist and the endeavor highlighted it superbly. Better rewards that draw in a more general audience. Because if there are "90% of bad apples," it's because only the bad apples are interested in what the activity has to offer.
Talk about level-matching players is pointless so long as the queues rarely have enough players in them to even start a match at all, much less pick and choose who plays with/agaist who. And anyway, I'm reluctant to support enabling the Player Potential system for PvP at all, seeing as it would likely bring with it all the ills of the infamous PvE queue revamp.
I enjoyed the PVP, it was a good test of my fleet sov and I even got a kill while surviving the whole match. PVP is great with a level playing field
"The meaning of victory is not to merely defeat your enemy but to destroy him, to completely eradicate him from living memory, to leave no remnant of his endeavours, to crush utterly his achievement and remove from all record his every trace of existence. From that defeat no enemy can ever recover. That is the meaning of victory."
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
I enjoyed the PVP, it was a good test of my fleet sov and I even got a kill while surviving the whole match. PVP is great with a level playing field
We've been trying to get this for years now. For the Endeavor, the chance of getting a fairly even match was good. Outside of this, when people run back to the super easy, never get blown up PvE side of the game. The potential for you to run in to one or more of the geared and ready opponents is high.
The truth here is, most people are afraid. They're afraid of getting blown up. They're afraid of facing a challenge. They're afraid of losing. Which all this is what PvP is. There is no guarantee of anything.
And the sad part about all this is. Most people likely have the gear and traits needed to be decent in PvP. It's sitting somewhere in the bank, or on boff, or stored on one of their other ships. Outside of new player, who doesn't have access to most of it, almost everyone else does have access to it. It's more that people believe that their glass cannon ship should be just as viable in PvP, as it is in PvE. Anyone with half a mind knows, that when you're walking on to the a PvP field. Survival is your primary objective. You can't win if you're dead.
You can see this in the PvE queues. Just jump in to a Starbase Blockade. So few people carry healing skills and try to dps their way to saving the freighters. It's freaking hilarious to watch. Most people can't handle this simple mechanic. It's not wonder they can't handle PvP.
I enjoyed the PVP, it was a good test of my fleet sov and I even got a kill while surviving the whole match. PVP is great with a level playing field
We've been trying to get this for years now. For the Endeavor, the chance of getting a fairly even match was good. Outside of this, when people run back to the super easy, never get blown up PvE side of the game. The potential for you to run in to one or more of the geared and ready opponents is high.
The truth here is, most people are afraid. They're afraid of getting blown up. They're afraid of facing a challenge. They're afraid of losing. Which all this is what PvP is. There is no guarantee of anything.
And the sad part about all this is. Most people likely have the gear and traits needed to be decent in PvP. It's sitting somewhere in the bank, or on boff, or stored on one of their other ships. Outside of new player, who doesn't have access to most of it, almost everyone else does have access to it. It's more that people believe that their glass cannon ship should be just as viable in PvP, as it is in PvE. Anyone with half a mind knows, that when you're walking on to the a PvP field. Survival is your primary objective. You can't win if you're dead.
You can see this in the PvE queues. Just jump in to a Starbase Blockade. So few people carry healing skills and try to dps their way to saving the freighters. It's freaking hilarious to watch. Most people can't handle this simple mechanic. It's not wonder they can't handle PvP.
Players need to find that balance, I treat builds by the tank design philosophy (Mobility, fire power and protection) so I go for protection and fire power over mobility and fire power. It was great seeing that philosophy actually work in PVP
"The meaning of victory is not to merely defeat your enemy but to destroy him, to completely eradicate him from living memory, to leave no remnant of his endeavours, to crush utterly his achievement and remove from all record his every trace of existence. From that defeat no enemy can ever recover. That is the meaning of victory."
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
The endeavor was a good idea for multiple reasons:
- A single PVP match would have allowed for a quick reward (had the endeavor not been bugged...)
- A lot of people got a chance to PVP while in general the large number of players decreased the chance of running into the bad apples of the PVP community.
- Large inflow of new PVP players should have provided more balanced matches.
Where things started to go wrong was when the endeavor was bugged and the bad apples saw their opportunity and haunted the spawnpoints and queues with premade teams.
For PVP, aside from balance issues, the easiest solution to avoid frustrating players new to PVP is to not allow premade teams in queued content, only in private matches.
This program, though reasonably normal at times, seems to have a strong affinity to classes belonging to the Cat 2.0 program. Questerius 2.7 will break down on occasion, resulting in garbage and nonsense messages whenever it occurs. Usually a hard reboot or pulling the plug solves the problem when that happens.
I enjoyed the PVP, it was a good test of my fleet sov and I even got a kill while surviving the whole match. PVP is great with a level playing field
We've been trying to get this for years now. For the Endeavor, the chance of getting a fairly even match was good. Outside of this, when people run back to the super easy, never get blown up PvE side of the game. The potential for you to run in to one or more of the geared and ready opponents is high.
The truth here is, most people are afraid. They're afraid of getting blown up. They're afraid of facing a challenge. They're afraid of losing. Which all this is what PvP is. There is no guarantee of anything.
And the sad part about all this is. Most people likely have the gear and traits needed to be decent in PvP. It's sitting somewhere in the bank, or on boff, or stored on one of their other ships. Outside of new player, who doesn't have access to most of it, almost everyone else does have access to it. It's more that people believe that their glass cannon ship should be just as viable in PvP, as it is in PvE. Anyone with half a mind knows, that when you're walking on to the a PvP field. Survival is your primary objective. You can't win if you're dead.
You can see this in the PvE queues. Just jump in to a Starbase Blockade. So few people carry healing skills and try to dps their way to saving the freighters. It's freaking hilarious to watch. Most people can't handle this simple mechanic. It's not wonder they can't handle PvP.
Players need to find that balance, I treat builds by the tank design philosophy (Mobility, fire power and protection) so I go for protection and fire power over mobility and fire power. It was great seeing that philosophy actually work in PVP
Same here. I don't build for pure DPS. Back when we had the trinity or sorts, sure setting up as a DPS was needed. But sense the introduction of the T5-U's and people started building glass cannons. The game as slowly switched over to cater to that, i.e. they made the game easier just for them. This is what caused the removal of the old Borg Elites. Sure they'll say it was because they were buggy.
NEWS FLASH: The Borg Elites where buggy before the switch to the DPS race.
We dealt with it, in less powerful ships. I know, I have all the titles from back then. I still have some of the Mk X gear from then as well, including kits. But when the T5's starting rolling out and the glass cannons were the fastest to die in them, they suddenly became "to hard." ...eerrrrr I mean, "to buggy."
Now, with all the free running power creep that's been put in-game. Cryptic has found that the players are stronger than they should be. But they can't just remove the power creep, so they have to find ways to balance it. But this also irks the players, because now they're losing their DPS crutch. The Miracle Worker spec and the balancing back in S13 are proof of this. On this, PvP takes the blame. Even though the changes are based off the PvE side of the game.
But then, this is what happens when you cater to the players wants. At some point in time you discover that overall, it's harmful to the life of the game. Cryptic just happened to hit that point. It only took 5 years, but they hit that point. Hence why they made the decision to make the changes they did.
I ran a 4v4 Arena during the Endeavor and besides the Endeavor Reward, which was an add-on, I only received Skill Points and XP. Is this the normal reward for this?
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Like it or not, the balance patch had to be done. So what your build is nerfed but you adapt to the changes
"The meaning of victory is not to merely defeat your enemy but to destroy him, to completely eradicate him from living memory, to leave no remnant of his endeavours, to crush utterly his achievement and remove from all record his every trace of existence. From that defeat no enemy can ever recover. That is the meaning of victory."
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
I ran a 4v4 Arena during the Endeavor and besides the Endeavor Reward, which was an add-on, I only received Skill Points and XP. Is this the normal reward for this?
Pretty much. It's been one of the chief complaints about PvP for years. Which that is the reward they added back in. They had removed it at one point, it use to reward fleet marks. But people were abusing it when the fleet system was introduced.
No cooldown, like the queues.
Could private challenge for reward.
x amount of wins for it.
People use to abuse this to get their fleet marks, even if they never PvPed for any other reason.
The Bortasqu was a woefully underrated ship. I had tricks that could let it dominate Escorts in PvP matches and Ker'rat back in the day with DHC's no less, and once that autocannon started firing there was no PvP'er in the game that could withstand its might.
Then came Doffs and Legacy of Romulus with massive speed and turn buffs that let escorts zoom and other more agile ship zoom around at pretty much full impulse speeds, rendering the Bortasqu truly obsolete.
"If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you ought to go back home and crawl under your bed. It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross. But it's not for the timid." - Q
Comments
Yeah, missing endeavors isn't the end of the world. The rewards are mediocre at best for them. I haven't really played since I got a look at the new seasons stuff. So far I have to say, the new season has provided content that is less than engaging. Just more go here, pew that and move on. The only thing mildly engaging in the whole thing, having to manually target the shuttle in Beach Assault.
No..Its not broken..Just the conditions for the endevor drop werent correctly stated. You have to win(stupid idea)...
I actually had a (KDF) player challenge me while I waited for my "Melting Pot" mission to come off cooldown... Guy was properly set up for resists and for Pvp but didnt get the endevor.So my as thanks for giving me a good match I challenged him back took of my shields and said "Shoot me".. So now we both completed the Endevor...Not all PVPers are bad guys :P
Rouge Sto Wiki Editor.
Here ya go mang. The Bad Guy.
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It depends on what the player wants to accomplish.
The lines between loser and winner in PvP can be blurred quite easily, for example you can win a lot of small victories against a very tough opponent, but it's not enough to win the war, in this case both sides won in PvP, there aren't any losers in a situation like that. and what about rounds where combat grinds in a nasty war over a specific point and it ends in a stalemate when the timer runs out and no one has the advantage?
The black and white idea of a loser and a winner in PvP is outdated.
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
They should definitely expect that. When you enter a competitive event for the first time, even if you had some kind of training (PvE here, for all that's worth), you should expect that you are weaker and odds of losing are above 50%, and as a corollary
you should expect to be on the weaker team, because even given a random distribution of players, one player is not random: you. And if you are inexperienced, odds are you will drag your team down. Even if you are king of the PvE queues, you should expect PvP to be a different thing altogether.
And that, in and of itself, is not bad. Everybody should be aware that playing something with others, you probably will have to learn to compete (unless it's a game nobody played before). Just the way it is. Only there are two problems here (not exclusive to playing STO):
1) The "n00b, git gud" people. Sure, if somebody isn't aware of the fact that he'll start off weak and complains about broken game or similar, you have a point. But pointing out how awesome you are and how suckish others are will not earn enough points for the n00bs to retry and git gud in the first place.
2) There must be a way of learning. And while it is possible to do this on your own, it is hard, very hard. Experienced players have years of knowledge, how things interact, learning from each other, talking to each other. Catching up on this knowledge won't take as much time as accruing it did in the first place, but it still will take a lot of time. What helps are helpful players which will take the time and explain stuff; but what also helps is playing against opponents of similar strength. Even if you have the danger of falling into some kind of "group thinking" without some better players explaining or showing to you, why this perceived uber build you use here will get you slapped right and left against better ones. Apart from the fact that winning once in a while is motivating so you'll continue to play, getting vaped in 1 second will not help you get better at all (not blaming this on the "vapers"), because whatever you correctly improve in your game, you won't really see results.
Problem is starting a match, dying, and then respawning on top of 3 Exothermic Induction Fields, 3 Cold Fusion Flashes and 3 Seismic Agitations. Someone on my team even commented on the spawn camping and the reply was "you are just mad you are losing". Well, I guess. It would be nice to win. I'm honestly more irritated that the only action I'm taking is clicking "respawn".
I'm just not a PvP sort of player, at least, not in STO. I'm far to fond of impractical and "gimmicky" builds to be drawn to PvP. I'm not even an "elite" player. I'm happy being a "scrub" and using missiles and tethered quantum mines (not on the same ship though).
Of course, they will also have to do something about the forum warriors who bash and undermine PVP at every turn, driving players away and creating a sense of majority = superiority that is patently false almost to the point that it is comical. I’m not sure what the cure for the PVEers feelings of male inadequacy is though. Maybe they could have an option that tells the player they are winning no matter what? Or have the bridge officers pop up with text that says “Good Job” and “You earned a trophy for participating.” It would have to be something good, and Cryptic may end up having to hire a psychologists.
Think of spawn camping. The other team is directing stating they have low enough self-esteem and confidence, that they need a crutch to stand on. It's the same thing with those that use words like, "noob" and "git gud." You just have to feel sorry for them, because this is the only ego-boost they can get. I'm not trying to flame, or shame, anyone here. Just stating the truth of the matter. It's a psychological addiction, they need it to feel better about themselves.
Though, I do hope that the dev's take this under advisement and institute some sort of spawn point protection. To remove their ability to do.
There are players out there that will help. There is information all over about builds and such. The STO-Academy subsection is full of it. There is also reddit, plenty of information over there. So all that is available.
Finding people to practice against is actually EASY. I mean, SUPER EASY. Everyone has friends and/or fleet mates. It is not that hard to ASK other if they want to have a Private Challenge against you. Yes, for those that didn't know. There is a challenge function. You should see it when you right click another player or that players name/portrait.
The main thing to remember about PvP. A glass cannon PvE DPS build, makes you an easy target. PvP requires that long forgotten survival abilities and traits. These are seldom needed in PvE these days, so they are overlooked.
As queuing up for PvP. Yes, one should keep in mind, that they other player may be stronger than them. Even if you practice and work at getting better. That is the way of things. This is just simple understanding. However, it is just easier to blame something else, it makes it easier to overlook your own inadequacies and insecurities.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
I know about helpful players, I encountered enough, maybe my phrasing wasn't perfect. But "finding people to practice against is easy" - well, in theory. In practice, STO allows you to go alone too much. Maybe you don't even join a fleet. Maybe you do, but the fleet is more or less an equipment store without much interaction. And while this can be addressed as a fault by the STO system and by lazy players, if PvP players want their community to grow, they'll have to understand this phenomenon and adapt, Because "not being guilty of a problem" doesn't solve the problem.
As for Reddit et al.: yeah, but that shouldn't be a needed resource. Believe it or not, with all its popularity and users, many still don't go there. And from a gaming point of view, they shouldn't have to. Again, this is not necessarily the players' fault, but considering how few people apparently read patch notes and official statements at all, asking them to get their information from sources outside will not help.
I have no solution myself to any of this. And as a mathematician, I am prone myself to say "a solution exists, so this is not a problem anymore". So I am not helpful here at all, and well aware of that. But if we want PvP to grow - and I'd love a PvP where I can just pug and find people of approximately my level, whatever that may be - we need to be aware of these issues and the way things are. As it is, I am not interested in PvP at all, because 90% of bad apples have spoiled it for me. And I do know that most of the "hurr hurr, me gud, you noob, me spawncamp you" crowd may be very pitiful people I should not get angry about. But in the end this knowledge doesn't really increase my enjoyment.
(And if it did, I would only get enjoyment out of a perceived sense of superiority myself, very much the same thing as what I am feeling superior to, causing a logical paradox which will bend the space time continuum and give birth to missions nobody really wants to play.)
I do admit, we haven't had any real team content since the pre-rep/lor Borg Elites. It's all been migrating to "BF@W everything and call it good." The few things that we have gotten since then, that require team play, are unpopular. Since they go against the solo-ability of the rest of the game.
This is why most people dislike PvP. It is not a BF@W environment. It's actually one of the most useless skills in PvP. It might help against a Carrier, perhaps a photonic fleet or something. But in general, it's not part of the core build. More just something you carry, just in case you might need it.
There is the main difference.
PvE is a good environment for BF@W and low survivablity.
PvP on the other hand, is more single target and high survivbility.
Which makes PvP a complete reversal of what almost everyone is use to.
And for those saying, "I tried it for the first time, just to get the Endeavor reward. Never again." You didn't try it at all, you merely showed up to get the participation reward, "Welcome to the No Captain left behind program. Thank you for your participation. Here is your Endeavor box."
You can't say you've tried it, until you've spent time doing it and attempting to get better at it. But if you wish to stay away from the competitive area of the game, which PvP is a part of. Then you should stay away from the Board(PvP) Races during the Summer Event and the competitive(PvP) elements of the Winter Event. But these offer decent rewards, even for losing. So that won't happen.
Which is one of the main problems with PvP at the moment. The reward for doing it isn't really worth bothering with.
Talk about level-matching players is pointless so long as the queues rarely have enough players in them to even start a match at all, much less pick and choose who plays with/agaist who. And anyway, I'm reluctant to support enabling the Player Potential system for PvP at all, seeing as it would likely bring with it all the ills of the infamous PvE queue revamp.
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
We've been trying to get this for years now. For the Endeavor, the chance of getting a fairly even match was good. Outside of this, when people run back to the super easy, never get blown up PvE side of the game. The potential for you to run in to one or more of the geared and ready opponents is high.
The truth here is, most people are afraid. They're afraid of getting blown up. They're afraid of facing a challenge. They're afraid of losing. Which all this is what PvP is. There is no guarantee of anything.
And the sad part about all this is. Most people likely have the gear and traits needed to be decent in PvP. It's sitting somewhere in the bank, or on boff, or stored on one of their other ships. Outside of new player, who doesn't have access to most of it, almost everyone else does have access to it. It's more that people believe that their glass cannon ship should be just as viable in PvP, as it is in PvE. Anyone with half a mind knows, that when you're walking on to the a PvP field. Survival is your primary objective. You can't win if you're dead.
You can see this in the PvE queues. Just jump in to a Starbase Blockade. So few people carry healing skills and try to dps their way to saving the freighters. It's freaking hilarious to watch. Most people can't handle this simple mechanic. It's not wonder they can't handle PvP.
Players need to find that balance, I treat builds by the tank design philosophy (Mobility, fire power and protection) so I go for protection and fire power over mobility and fire power. It was great seeing that philosophy actually work in PVP
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
- A single PVP match would have allowed for a quick reward (had the endeavor not been bugged...)
- A lot of people got a chance to PVP while in general the large number of players decreased the chance of running into the bad apples of the PVP community.
- Large inflow of new PVP players should have provided more balanced matches.
Where things started to go wrong was when the endeavor was bugged and the bad apples saw their opportunity and haunted the spawnpoints and queues with premade teams.
For PVP, aside from balance issues, the easiest solution to avoid frustrating players new to PVP is to not allow premade teams in queued content, only in private matches.
Same here. I don't build for pure DPS. Back when we had the trinity or sorts, sure setting up as a DPS was needed. But sense the introduction of the T5-U's and people started building glass cannons. The game as slowly switched over to cater to that, i.e. they made the game easier just for them. This is what caused the removal of the old Borg Elites. Sure they'll say it was because they were buggy.
NEWS FLASH: The Borg Elites where buggy before the switch to the DPS race.
We dealt with it, in less powerful ships. I know, I have all the titles from back then. I still have some of the Mk X gear from then as well, including kits. But when the T5's starting rolling out and the glass cannons were the fastest to die in them, they suddenly became "to hard." ...eerrrrr I mean, "to buggy."
Now, with all the free running power creep that's been put in-game. Cryptic has found that the players are stronger than they should be. But they can't just remove the power creep, so they have to find ways to balance it. But this also irks the players, because now they're losing their DPS crutch. The Miracle Worker spec and the balancing back in S13 are proof of this. On this, PvP takes the blame. Even though the changes are based off the PvE side of the game.
But then, this is what happens when you cater to the players wants. At some point in time you discover that overall, it's harmful to the life of the game. Cryptic just happened to hit that point. It only took 5 years, but they hit that point. Hence why they made the decision to make the changes they did.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
Pretty much. It's been one of the chief complaints about PvP for years. Which that is the reward they added back in. They had removed it at one point, it use to reward fleet marks. But people were abusing it when the fleet system was introduced.
No cooldown, like the queues.
Could private challenge for reward.
x amount of wins for it.
People use to abuse this to get their fleet marks, even if they never PvPed for any other reason.
Yeah, when I heard they were doing a balancing patch. My first words were, "It's about time!"
Then came Doffs and Legacy of Romulus with massive speed and turn buffs that let escorts zoom and other more agile ship zoom around at pretty much full impulse speeds, rendering the Bortasqu truly obsolete.